maclatunji: ^You call the Prophet's companions tyrants and suggest they are hypocrites and say that is not slander - silly!

You even suggest that the decision on where Abu Bakr and Umar were buried is outside the decision of Allah. How low can you sink?

You are beyond pathetic!

there is no need to use words like "silly" and "pathetic".i made claims that abu bakr and umar were tyrannical and also hypocrital.before you judge me "silly" and "pathetic",what you should have done for you to determine whether i am actually slandering them or not,you should ask for proof.ask me to present you with proof to prove my case that abu bakr and umar were not only tyrants and hypocrites,but in fact the worse tyrants and hypocrites that humanity have ever seen.i say that confidently without the slightest feeling of guilt or remorse.now you have judged me "silly" and "pathetic" without asking me to produce my proof if i am truthful.inshaAllah,if you are interested i will provide for you proof why i stated those claims against abu bakr and umar.then you will determine whether i am slandering them or saying it as it is without trying to conceal the truth,lie or credit them with undue and fabricated virtues as you want us Shia to do in line with Sunni appeal.

if Allah (swt) in the Quran has described companions as "hypocrite" then why are you so shocked? is it because it has to do with abu bakr and umar? well inshaAllah we will deal with that.but i want you to know that this stiff on the concept of "companion of the prophet" should stop because those companions were fallible men and "companion" is not a title and was not a title.there were good and bad among the companions,and pious and evil ones. if the wives of prophets (Lot and Noah) in the Quran,the uncle of Prophet Muhammad (sa) and the son of Noah are all condemned in the Quran to eternal damnation,then why is it shocking to learn that any companion for that matter was an hypocrite based on his ill-intended actions ? the verses of warning in the Quran were revealed on companions.and so is the verse calling those around the Prophet (sa) hypocrites.there should be no shock here.i see that as very dishonest,unappealing to read and full of pretense.

"And among those around you of the bedouins are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment". [9:101]


as for the the issue on the burial of abu bakr and umar beside the Prophet (sa),please you should not resort to blackmail and raising emotions in order to win the satisfaction of those who reason and sympathize along your line.i am not sinking any low here.Allah (swt) is undoubtedly in control,just as He was in control when hitler was killing millions in europe.you do not justify anyone's actions by claiming that Allah (swt) is in control.it is not done like that especially when the actions are not justified or are ill-intended.furthermore,i presented the case of Usthman.now can you tell me that it was the desire and will of Allah (swt) for Usthman's body to be dumped in the garbage dump for days unburied and then he was buried among the jews? isn't someone who is unburied for days a state of suffering? isn't dumping the body of someone like usthman,sunnis regard as a "rightly guided caliph" slander and insult? as in even if i dislike usthman,i wont do to my enemy what was done to him.isn't also burying him among the jews by his companions a sign of contempt? why was he not buried beside the Prophet (sa)? it is amazing how you believe Allah (swt) is in control when it comes to where who is buried where.but you forget to remember whether or not Allah (swt) has a say about who succeeds His messenger (sa) and lead the ummah of His messenger and refuse to find out what Allah (swt) and His Prophet (sa) said in that regard even in the Quran you read and revere on Imam Ali's (as) right to leadership of the ummah after Prophet Muhammad (sa).

i hope we can continue this in an academic way and with an intellectual approach.i look forward to your reply,inshaAllah.

Your long epistles expose you as one who is at least up to mischief. The truth is always short and concise. The way you make it seem as if Abu Bakr and Umar (RA) were not of the closest to Allah and his Prophet (SAW) is laughable, especially with the fact that you wouldn't be here to spew rubbish about them without their efforts. Even Ali (RA) whom you claim to be fighting for had the greatest of respect for them. You cannot have a sense of shame over what you do because you are too full of yourself in your misguidance.

Take this as a warning, you will be sanctioned if such continues. If Sayyidina Ali (RA) did not stand for the crap you spew here, I most definitely won't give you the leeway.

This debate is over!

maclatunji: Your long epistles expose you as one who is at least up to mischief.

so when the message is long,that is how you determine its veracity or falsity.how many pages and verses is the Holy Quran? this is laughable.

The truth is always short and concise. The way you make it seem as if Abu Bakr and Umar (RA) were not of the closest to Allah and his Prophet (SAW) is laughable, especially with the fact that you wouldn't be here to spew rubbish about them without their efforts.

i am here in Islam and as a Muslim and follower of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and the 12 holy Imams (as) because it is the promise of Allah (swt) for the truth to prevail even though you and your heroes dislike it:

"It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion. And sufficient is Allah as Witness".(48:28)

you make accusations and when they are replied to,you make further accusations and raise your emotions.it is evident you are not sincere from the beginning.you came here in order to set a trap.but inshaAllah you will fail in doing so.if you were interested in holding a dialogue,even when two people differ in views,they do not resort to issue threats and warnings.but obviously as i said,you are not sincere from the beginning hence you now resort to threats instead of seeking proof.nonetheless i will present my proof and i will have Allah (swt) as my witness over your pride and arrogance.

Even Ali (RA) whom you claim to be fighting for had the greatest of respect for them. You cannot have a sense of shame over what you do because you are too full of yourself in your misguidance.

don't you dare mention the name "Ali" (as) here.
when your heroes were perpetrating their act of disobedience against the orders of the Prophet (sa) and the commands of Allah (swt) they did not care Ali (as) was among them.Imam Ali (as) is a beacon of respect and justice.his qualities serve him good and do not serve his enemies and detractors.for instance because i am of great attitude and behavior towards anyone,does not make anyone a great person who is all good.

Take this as a warning, you will be sanctioned if such continues. If Sayyidina Ali (RA) did not stand for the crap you spew here, I most definitely won't give you the leeway.

This debate is over!

you have now resort to nothing but attacking me,making more accusations and claims and obviously in a bid to provoke reaction from me.i wont be dragged into a "power tussle" with Mr.Moderator.nonetheless you cannot silence me from airing my views,or using your bias and prejudice as yardstick to oppose me.

instead of making more accusations and baseless claims,you should have asked what did Imam Ali (as) do to protest the injustice abu bakr and umar handed him.and that i shall present for you to feel how you are trying to dodge the truth and the facts of history.

now i will start in presenting my proof,by starting with the presentation "from the horse's mouth".

[size=18pt]Umar's Admission The Caliphate Was Usurped From Imam Ali (as) [/size]

First Dialogue With Abdullah Ibn Abass (cousin of Imam Ali and the Prophet s.a.)

Umar:"O Ibn `Abbas! Do you know what stopped your folks [from getting the caliphate] after Muhammad (pbuh)?"

Ibn `Abbas narrates saying: "I hated to answer `Umar's question, so I said to him: `If I do not know, the commander of the faithful [i.e. `Umar] knows.'"

`Umar said: "[Some people simply] hated that both prophethood and caliphate be confined to your House (Banu Hashim); so, they were happy about their scheme. Quraysh sought it for thmselves, and were able to obtain it."

Ibn Abass : "O commander of the faithful! Do you permit me to say something and promise to control your anger?" He answered in the affirmative;

Ibn `Abbas said: "As regarding your statement, O commander of the faithful, that Quraysh sought it for themselves and were successful in obtaining it, I say that had Quraysh sought what Allah had chosen for them, their choice would have been unobjectionable and unblamed. As regarding your statement that they hated to see both prophethood and caliphate in our House, I say that Allah, the Exalted and the Sublime, has described (in the Quran) some people to be malicious, saying, `... that is so because they hated what Allah has revealed, so He rendered their deeds vain.'"

`Umar then said: "Impossible, O Ibn `Abbas, for I heard things about you which I hate to believe else your status in my eyes should be reduced."

Ibn Abass asked: `What are they, O commander of the faithful? If they are true, they should not lower my status in your esteem, and if they are not, I am capable of defending myself against false charges.'

`Umar then said: `It has come to my knowledge that you say that they have deprived you (Banu Hashim) of it [caliphate] out of envy, oppression and injustice.'

Ibn Abass said: `As regarding your statement, O commander of the faithful, that it was oppression, then that has become quite obvious to those who are ignorant as well as to those who are clement. As regarding your statement about envy, then Adam was envied, and we are his descendants who also are envious.'

`Umar then said: `Impossible, impossible; your hearts, O descendants of Hashim, have become filled with envy that can never dissipate.'

Ibn Abass therefore said: `Wait, O commander of the faithful, do not attribute this to the hearts of among those whom Allah has purified with a perfect purification.'"

Al-Tarikh al-Kamil by Ibn al-Athir who includes it at the conclusion of `Umer's biography among the events of the year 23 A.H., page 24, Vol. 3, and it is also quoted by the Mu`tazilite scholar in `Umer's biography, too, page 107, Vol. 3, of Sharh Nahjul Balaghah


As Recorded by Tabari:

Umar :"..Ibn Abbas! What prevented 'Ali from coming with us?'

Ibn Abass replied, 'I do not know'.

Umar continued: 'Ibn Abbas your father is the paternal uncle of the Messenger of God. You are his cousin. What has prevented your people from putting you [in authority]?'

Ibn Abass replied: that I did not know.

Umar continued: 'But I do know, they do not like you being put in charge of them'.

Ibn Abass said: 'Why, when we are good to them?'

Umar replied: O God [grant] forgiveness. They do not like you to combine Prophethood and the caliphate among yourselves, less it bring about self-aggrandizement and pride. You will perhaps say, 'Abu Bakr did this'. No indeed, but Abu Bakr did the most resolute thing he could. If he had made (the caliphate) yours, he would not have benefited you despite your close ties of relationship [to the Prophet]".
(The History of Tabari, Volume 14, English translation, by G. Rex Smith, p136-137)

Second dialogue between Umar and Abdullah Ibn Abass (ra).

Umar:"How did you leave your cousin?"

Ibn `Abbas said he thought `Umar meant `Abdullah ibn Ja`far; so, he answered: "I left him in the company of his friends."

Umar said: "I did not mean him; I meant the greatest among you, Ahl al-Bayt(i.e. Imam Ali)."

Ibn `Abbas said: "I left him exiled, irrigating while reciting the Qur'an."

`Umar said: "O `Abdullah! I implore you not to be shy but tell me if he is still concerned about the issue of caliphate." Ibn Abass answered in the affirmative.

Then `Umer asked: " Does he claim that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) has selected him for it?"

Ibn `Abbas answered: "Yes, indeed; moreover, I even asked my father if there was any statement made by the Messenger of Allah regarding selecting him for the caliphate, and my father informed me that that was the truth."

`Umar then said: "The Messenger of Allah held him in very high esteem through his speeches and actions in a way that left no argument nor excuse for anyone, and he kept testing the nation regarding him for some time; nay, even when he was sick [prior to his demise], he wished to nominate him for it, but it was I who stopped him."

Imam Abul-Fadl Ahmed ibn Abu Tahir in his book Tarikh Baghdad, indicating his reliable source to be Ibn `Abbas. It is also quoted by the Mu`tazilite scholar who discusses `Umer in his Sharh Nahjul Balaghah, page 97, Vol. 3.

Third Dialogue Between Umar and Abdullah Ibn Abass (ra)

`Umar said: "O Ibn `Abbas! I can see how wronged your friend [`Ali (as)] is."

Ibn `Abbas said: "O commander of the faithful, then affect justice on his behalf."

Ibn `Abbas said: "But `Umer pulled his hand from mine and went away whispering to himself for a good while. Then he stopped; so, I rejoined him,

and he (Umar) said to me: `O Ibn `Abbas! I do not think that his people denied him [the caliphate] for any reason other than his being too young for it.'

Ibn Abass said to him: `By Allah, neither Allah nor His Messenger regarded him as too young when they both ordered him to take Sürat Bara'a (Qur'an, Chapter 9) from him [from Abu Bakr].' Having heard this, he (Umar) turned away from me and started walking fast; so, I left him alone."

This dialogue is quoted by authors of books of biographies in their discussions of `Umar, and it is quoted here from Sharh Nahjul Balaghah by the Mu`tazilite scholar; so, refer to page 105 of its third volume.

i am waiting for Maclatunji to at least accept that when you make accusations,you should allow the accused to defend himself.

after presenting my first set of evidence,there are many more to present and all of them presented from Sunni books of hadiths and Islamic history.

i am waiting for his reply before i proceed with many more.

Salam alaykum house.
Islam has a lot of challenges that should be collectively dealt with by all muslims of different backgrounds. Shia, sunni and whatever names you want to add to it is not IMO worth dividing us as a body of faith.
Once you believe in the oneness of ALLAH, believe in prophet Muhammed and other prophets, the Qur‘an and other Islamic holy books, observe your salat, give alms as directed by Islam, etc and do good to everyone around you muslim or not then, you should keep praying for ALLAH to keep you on the right path.
Salam.

abdurrazaq: Salam alaykum house.
Islam has a lot of challenges that should be collectively dealt with by all muslims of different backgrounds. Shia, sunni and whatever names you want to add to it is not IMO worth dividing us as a body of faith.
Once you believe in the oneness of ALLAH, believe in prophet Muhammed and other prophets, the Qur‘an and other Islamic holy books, observe your salat, give alms as directed by Islam, etc and do good to everyone around you muslim or not then, you should keep praying for ALLAH to keep you on the right path.
Salam.

wa alaykum assalam.
brother,that is your view and it sounds good.however,deviating from the truth is not an option under the banner of Oneness of Allah (swt) and other beliefs,except if you do not know.and that is exactly why i am spreading the news.now that the truth is manifesting,we are all Muslims.but what happens to the many of Shia Muslims that are killed everyday by wahhabi aka salafist terrorists? we need someone to preach to the sectarian terrorists what you are saying.if they realize that,i would be happy and whatever differences we have we can settle in an intellectual way.but you can see even our moderator (Maclatunji) here resorted to issuing threats and could not have patience to bear the truth or give me time to even respond to him.that is how those calling themselves "Sunni" and especilly those among them under the influence of wahhabism aka salafism tend to behave.you can see this thread of the massacre they commit in different countries:

https://www.nairaland.com/961495/timeline-sectarian-terrorism-against-shia

this is the catastrophe and extremism i can prevent when i reach out with the truth.

The killing of any soul, be it muslim, shia, sunni, christian, pagan, etc is an act of disbelief in GOD and a great sin indeed. Killing and other act of evil is not supported by Islam and anybody who does them or support those that secretely or openly is an enemy of ALLAH.
The major problem of islam is ignorant people posing as muslims (even as clerics) mis-interpreting the Quran to cause unnecessary havoc in the name of religion.

abdurrazaq: The killing of any soul, be it muslim, shia, sunni, christian, pagan, etc is an act of disbelief in GOD and a great sin indeed. Killing and other act of evil is not supported by Islam and anybody who does them or support those that secretely or openly is an enemy of ALLAH.
The major problem of islam is ignorant people posing as muslims (even as clerics) mis-interpreting the Quran to cause unnecessary havoc in the name of religion.

words for posterity!

Dis dialogue reminds me of a good friend of mine who was Shia when I was in school then.I guess you should leave this guy alone and attend to things more important.Apart from slandering sahabahs,they have a set of dangerous beliefs.Do you know they uphold mut'ah(temporary marriage)?Maclatunji,pls let these people be.

debokaz: Dis dialogue reminds me of a good friend of mine who was Shia when I was in school then.I guess you should leave this guy alone and attend to things more important.Apart from slandering sahabahs,they have a set of dangerous beliefs.Do you know they uphold mut'ah(temporary marriage)?Maclatunji,pls let these people be.

you sound like someone disturbed by an evil spirit.you're busy running after my threads to comment and do "notice me" while asking others to let me be.are you ok? you should let me be because you're talking nonsense.the Holy Quran (4:24) upholds mut'ah marriage.not suprisingly a fake Muslim like you doesn't know.as for "dangerous beliefs",well the truth is always dangerous and always evil people make it a preserved secret.

Evil my foot!I was only reacting cos you guys are becoming distracting.I lived and slept with your type in school.You guys are difficult to condone.Hypocrites who wash their feets dis time and do mas'ah the other time.Is that ablution?

debokaz: Evil my foot!I was only reacting cos you guys are becoming distracting.I lived and slept with your type in school.You guys are difficult to condone.Hypocrites who wash their feets dis time and do mas'ah the other time.Is that ablution?

first you need to calm down and ask why certain things are done in certain ways.people are always antagonistic towards what they do not understand.you are bringing up too many topics.you have to take it once at a time.in fact this thread have nothing to do with ablution and you did not accept or reject the proof put forth.the same with Maclatunji.instead of scrutinizing being "Sunni" as bid'ah,he ran away from the topic of this thread and turned it against me to argue about being a Shia.the truth is not reached like that.

regarding ablution,and particular the feet,the detail is very explicit in the holy Quran.the Quran says "wipe your feet".it does not say "wash your feet".so wiping the feet is part of ablution.but if your feet are dirty,then wash them clean first,then dry them before you wipe them.so even when you wash them for being dirty,you still wipe them because it is the wiping that Allah (swt) ordered as part of wudu (ablution).

debokaz: Evil my foot!I was only reacting cos you guys are becoming distracting.I lived and slept with your type in school.You guys are difficult to condone.Hypocrites who wash their feets dis time and do mas'ah the other time.Is that ablution?

first you need to calm down and ask why certain things are done in certain ways.people are always antagonistic towards what they do not understand.you are bringing up too many side topics with the intention or aim to attack.you have to take it one at a time.in fact this thread have nothing to do with ablution and you did not accept or reject the proof put forth in the OP regarding the topic of the thread itself.the same with Maclatunji.instead of scrutinizing being "Sunni" as bid'ah and moving away from this bid'ah,he ran away from the topic of this thread and turned it against me to argue about what Shia believe about the companions-another side topic.the truth is not reached like that.

regarding ablution,and particular the feet,the detail is very explicit in the holy Quran.the Quran says "wipe your feet".it does not say "wash your feet".so wiping the feet is part of ablution.but if your feet are dirty,then wash them clean first,then dry them before you wipe them.so even when you wash them for being dirty,you still wipe them because it is the wiping that Allah (swt) ordered as part of wudu (ablution).