musKeeto:
For without faith, it is impossible to please God..
Fatih, substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen...

And someone tries to defend this with reason, laughable..

I marvel o at how anyone can defend faith with reason. I really marvel

this is what you get when religious dogma is effectively combined with threats of eternal torture. they will rather defend their "faith" till death by all means necessary or else they "lose" their salvation and make a shipwreck of their of their "faith". to them you are the "agents" of satan sent to deceive them from the faith and lure them into hell fire.

talk about fairy tales.

thats how religion will "force" you to tenaciously believe all sorts of absurdities

This guy, Plaetton is fun He sounds like a 2-yr old on the piano. Kid thinks he's Beethoven, while everyone who knows music is worried about the health of their ears.

And cyrexx cheers along

MusKeeto decides the meaning of faith and propounds the law of incompatibility.

Wow! Y'all are my best entertainment tonight. I mean, kids raise hell in the house but any adult sees the cuteness in all that chaos, right?

Ihedinobi: This guy, Plaetton is fun He sounds like a 2-yr old on the piano. Kid thinks he's Beethoven, while everyone who knows music is worried about the health of their ears.

And cyrexx cheers along

MusKeeto decides the meaning of faith and propounds the law of incompatibility.

Wow! Y'all are my best entertainment tonight. I mean, kids raise hell in the house but any adult sees the cuteness in all that chaos, right?

and ihedinobi falsely thinks he is making sense by his childish babblings that are totally irreleant to the topic at hand while he eggs his clone anony on in their self-conceived and tenacious rigmaroling...

i must say you both made my day too..

LOLOLOLOL

Ihedinobi: This guy, Plaetton is fun He sounds like a 2-yr old on the piano. Kid thinks he's Beethoven, while everyone who knows music is worried about the health of their ears.

And cyrexx cheers along

MusKeeto decides the meaning of faith and propounds the law of incompatibility.

Wow! Y'all are my best entertainment tonight. I mean, kids raise hell in the house but any adult sees the cuteness in all that chaos, right?

Muskeeto decides the meaning of faith? Dude, I quoted from the Bible.. Or do I need the Holy Spirit to decipher its meaning?

Endeavor to make your comments a bit cuter or funnier. Right now, as logicboy would say, they are trying too hard to be epic fails..

cyrexx:


and ihedinobi falsely thinks he is making sense by his childish babblings that are totally irreleant to the topic at hand while he eggs his clone anony on in their self-conceived and tenacious rigmaroling...

i must say you both made my day too..

LOLOLOLOL

Glad we did, dude. You know, I do like you. I think you're gonna get it right eventually.

musKeeto:
Muskeeto decides the meaning of faith? Dude, I quoted from the Bible.. Or do I need the Holy Spirit to decipher its meaning?

Endeavor to make your comments a bit cuter or funnier. Right now, as logicboy would say, they are trying too hard to be epic fails..

Apparently, you do. Because I saw two words there that just screamed "REASON!!!!!!!" But you ignored them

Sorry, I'm not very good at playing chihuahua or cute little poodle. But at least I try, no harm in that, right?

Ihedinobi:

Apparently, you do. Because I saw two words there that just screamed "REASON!!!!!!!" But you ignored them

Sorry, I'm not very good at playing chihuahua or cute little poodle. But at least I try, no harm in that, right?

Smh... WhAt r u? A reformed davidlyan?

Dear deep sight i want u to look thru ur post again and take a look at the reaction to it. You are argueing against doctrines yet the arguement thus far has been on the different understand of God. One cant fully worship unless he know what he is worshipping, that is why doctrine are important. St paul was proud to say 'i know who i believe' because faith is an important component of worship and 'faith comet by hearing', this shows that we do not only need our inward being to worship, we also need our mind. True faith must be also be expressed so u also need ur body. Worship is and expression, a unique expression.

Deep Sight: [color=#000099]^^^ And what does it take to worship God, if not simply be a good person?
Are the outward forms and rituals, such as Prayer, Praise, Ceremonies etc really required by a Living God?

my answer is yes.

In all sincerity, let me ask you what you understand by the injunction that one must worship God is Spirit and in Truth?

to truly and sincerely worship from the core of your being and to specifically worship with ur whole being.

In my own understanding, that simply means that dead outward ceremonies are not the substance of worshipping God - that the worship of God rather relates to the inward state of the spirit which corresponds to eternal truth.

i share a similar but different conviction, true worship truly relates to our inward being but true worship doesnt end in our inward being, it transends the soul, remember the sherma it says 'hear o israel d lord ur God is one and u must luv him wit all ur heart, all ur soul nd all ur strength'' the love for God or worship must transcend d soul, it must also be in d heart, you must also recognise and know him that is why it says 'with all ur mind', you must act on it that is why it says 'with all ur strenght' worship cant stop in our inward being it must be expressed, it must radiate and transform us until all our being is involved.

This is why I brought up the parable of the good Samaritan, which I thought should be sufficient to show you from your own bible that the worship of God has absolutely nothing to do with outward ceremonies, rituals or dogmatic or doctrinal acknowledgements.

see the old testament and u wil see God talking about ceremonies, do u think he did it in vain, christ also instituted a way of worship a ritual do u tink it was in vain? Do you disagree that one should 'know who he believes'? For me dogmas and doctrines are signposts that help us in knowing the one we worship.

So it should be noted that the parable was given within a context of salvation – namely that which would be required for one to be accepted with God.

very true.

Now it is instructive that Jesus selects a Priest and a Levite to demonstrate his point – because the Priest and the Levite as you well know symbolize those who expressly acknowledge God, accept all the attendant doctrines about God and morality, and actively execute the outward rituals of “worshipping” God. The Levites as you know were a dedicated tribe of holy priests within the nation of Israel.

However Jesus has just shown what I am trying to say – namely that all the outward forms of acknowledgement of God which these people subscribed to did not in any way mean that they were really worshipping God – because of their action of ignoring the man who was hurt.

yeah, he was showing that the levite and priests had left the spirit of d law and are now following a dead letter. Please note that this doesnt condemn true worship even when rites and rituals are used, it instead condemns the use of those ritual without the spirit of love. Rites and ritual can express worship for God but without that inward component those rituals are in vain.

musKeeto:
Smh... WhAt r u? A reformed davidlyan?

WOW! Now I am finally starting to understand why davidlyan is so harsh. It can really become fustrating putting up with you lot

.....The spirit must always strive against the flesh.

musKeeto:
For without faith, it is impossible to please God..
Fatih, substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen...

And someone tries to defend this with reason, laughable..

If you indeed understood the verse you just quoted, you wouldn't have made fun of it; especially when you read it in context. The chapter you seek is Hebrews 11.
Faith is impossible without reason for faith.

It is by faith that Galileo believed that the earth revolved around the sun even when the powers that be doubted him,
It is by faith that Einstein propounded his theory of relativity
It is by faith that Higgs believed in the existence of bosons etc etc.

Now read that verse again: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.....

True faith must exist with reason, It cannot exist any other way.

Mr_Anony:
If you indeed understood the verse you just quoted, you wouldn't have made fun of it; especially when you read it in context. The chapter you seek is Hebrews 11.
Faith is impossible without reason for faith.

It is by faith that Galileo believed that the earth revolved around the sun even when the powers that be doubted him,
It is by faith that Einstein propounded his theory of relativity
It is by faith that Higgs believed in the existence of bosons etc etc.

Now read that verse again: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.....

True faith must exist with reason, It cannot exist any other way.

Wrong wrong wrong. Faith and conviction are not the same o.
Galileo had conviction of observable and testable phenomena.
Einstein had conviction in the mathematical exactitude of known and measurable laws of physics.
Higgs had conviction, again, of what is observable and measurable laws of physics.

These were not blind faith. These were not faith on the impossible.
These were not religious faith.
Having a conviction of what is observable, testable and peer-reviewable can never be the same as having faith on religious grounds.

Saying so is very rediculous.

Ihedinobi: This guy, Plaetton is fun He sounds like a 2-yr old on the piano. Kid thinks he's Beethoven, while everyone who knows music is worried about the health of their ears.

And cyrexx cheers along

MusKeeto decides the meaning of faith and propounds the law of incompatibility.

Wow! Y'all are my best entertainment tonight. I mean, kids raise hell in the house but any adult sees the cuteness in all that chaos, right?

The court jester.
Pls say something to make us laugh, we are all tensed up.

plaetton:

Wrong wrong wrong. Faith and conviction are not the same o.
Galileo had conviction of observable and testable phenomena.
Einstein had conviction in the mathematical exactitude of known and measurable laws of physics.
Higgs had conviction, again, of what is observable and measurable laws of physics.

These were not blind faith. These were not faith on the impossible.
These were not religious faith.
Having a conviction of what is observable, testable and peer-reviewable can never be the same as having faith on religious grounds.

Saying so is very rediculous.

I could not have said it better. Next Anony would try to proof that science is based on faith...

Mr_Anony:
WOW! Now I am finally starting to understand why davidlyan is so harsh. It can really become fustrating putting up with you lot

.....The spirit must always strive against the flesh.

And I am finally starting to understand why logicboy is so harsh. It can really become frustrating putting up with you lot

....Reason must always strive with foolishness...

musKeeto:
I could not have said it better. Next Anony would try to proof that science is based on faith...

A common misconception is that faith is against science, Not so. True, science is not based on faith, but faith on the other hand is based on science & extends science. I understand why there seems to be this conflict and that is because god, the prophets & jesus brought their messages in allegories and parables, thus people have misunderstood, and some have outright rejected any idea that faith might make scientific sense. But the allegories and parables where not by chance incidences but deliberate efforts by god to hide these secrets from man & the devil and only for these mysteries to be revealed to the chosen. Yes i said hidden from man, sounds wicked right? Well, here comes another mistake we make, and that is projecting human values on god and believing that god thinks like us. But I will explain later.

Mr_Anony:
If you indeed understood the verse you just quoted, you wouldn't have made fun of it; especially when you read it in context. The chapter you seek is Hebrews 11.
Faith is impossible without reason for faith.
Now read that verse again: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.....

True faith must exist with reason, It cannot exist any other way.

This is pretty embarrassing.. it's now TRUE faith vs faith, LOL, MR Anony..

Mr_Anony:
My friend, I believe truth is one, there cannot possibly be two truths on the same issue. It is either one account is true or both are lies.

So mr. Anony, what's true faith and what's faith? How do you know true faith?

plaetton:

Wrong wrong wrong. Faith and conviction are not the same o.
Galileo had conviction of observable and testable phenomena.
Einstein had conviction in the mathematical exactitude of known and measurable laws of physics.
Higgs had conviction, again, of what is observable and measurable laws of physics.

These were not blind faith. These were not faith on the impossible.
These were not religious faith.
Having a conviction of what is observable, testable and peer-reviewable can never be the same as having faith on religious grounds.

Saying so is very rediculous.

This is why I said you guys didn't understand that verse; Faith = Conviction, it is the complete trust or confidence in someone or something.....If you are not convinced of something, you simply don't believe in it. I fail to see what it is that you find ridiculous

musKeeto:
This is pretty embarrassing.. it's now TRUE faith vs faith, LOL, MR Anony..

So mr. Anony, what's true faith and what's faith? How do you know true faith?

Funny chap you are; how do you read? Immediately I use the phrase true faith, it implies that anything other than what I have described is simply not faith.

Mr_Anony:
Funny chap you are; how do you read? Immediately I use the phrase true faith, it implies that anything other than what I have described is simply not faith.

Why then did you use TRUE? How do you write?
Good morning, btw...

musKeeto:
Why then did you use TRUE? How do you write?
Good morning, btw...

Good morning too. I had to use 'true' because it was apparent to me that that you guys were confusing faith with something else that is not faith.

musKeeto:
And I am finally starting to understand why logicboy is so harsh. It can really become frustrating putting up with you lot

....Reason must always strive with foolishness...

Lol, of all characters you could have used to parody my initial statement, it had to be logicboy.....maybe I should have originally used buzugee somebody else instead

Mr_Anony:
Lol, of all characters you could have used to parody my initial statement, it had to be logicboy.....maybe I should have originally used buzugee somebody else instead

lol...

So could you define the relationship between faith and reason?

If faith is evidence of things not seen, how does that tally with reason/logic? Isn't reason/logic validated by evidence? Can you say the same for faith..

SEEING IS BELIEVING, BELIEVING IS SEEING?

okeyxyz:

A common misconception is that faith is against science, Not so. True, science is not based on faith, but faith on the other hand is based on science & extends science. I understand why there seems to be this conflict and that is because god, the prophets & jesus brought their messages in allegories and parables, thus people have misunderstood, and some have outright rejected any idea that faith might make scientific sense. But the allegories and parables where not by chance incidences but deliberate efforts by god to hide these secrets from man & the devil and only for these mysteries to be revealed to the chosen. Yes i said hidden from man, sounds wicked right? Well, here comes another mistake we make, and that is projecting human values on god and believing that god thinks like us. But I will explain later.

Oga mi, I think your theory/beliefs here deserve a new thread..

okeyxyz: God is not gonna judge non-christians according to christian doctrine, and it baffles me that a lot of mainstream christians do not preach this. The book of romans explains this perfectly:

beautifully put.
I can only add a scripture that stand pepetual. Isaiah 5:20

on this issue, a correct understanding of judgement day is of the utmost important.

musKeeto: So could you define the relationship between faith and reason?

If faith is evidence of things not seen, how does that tally with reason/logic? Isn't reason/logic validated by evidence? Can you say the same for faith..

SEEING IS BELIEVING, BELIEVING IS SEEING?

The relationship between reason and faith. I'll give you an analogy I once heard from someone:

Assuming You baked a cake, and you gathered all of the top scientists and nobel prize winners to test the the cake in as many ways as possible, They will be able to describe the cake and how it was made to precise detail, not a problem at all here.

But then suppose they were now asked to tell why you baked the cake. At this point you'll have a smile on your face because try as hard as they might, they will never be able to tell you why you baked the cake. At best they can only guess. They cannot know unless you reveal your reason for baking the cake to them.

Now that's not all, after you have revealed the reason to them, they must then make sense of the information you have given them i.e. if you say you made the cake for your son's 5th birthday, but the cake says happy 50th birthday, they must ask you how come and you have to also tell them why you wrote 50 instead of 5 (notice however that the source of further revelation still has to be you).

How does this relate to faith and reason? Simple (notice that at no point in the following steps do we discard reason), we start with an observable fact, we seek the originator, when we have found the originator, we ask the explanation of the fact. We can only know this explanation through revelation, we observe another aspect of this fact and we must rely on the originator to give further explanation.....and so on and so forth.
This is what my faith is all about - absolute reliance on the originator of all things. I know who God is and I totally rely on Him.


I'll leave for you a bible verse to ponder.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. Prov 25:2 (KJV)

or perhaps you'll prefer this version...

God delights in concealing things; scientists delight in discovering things. Prov 25:2 (MSG)

Okay, let us assume God exists and he God gave us the desire to learn and to expand our knowledge. This should be a fairly acceptable assumption for most people, atheists, deists and religionists. Based on this, why does God place so much emphasis on faith? Or should I say, why do Christians place so much emphasis on faith? Why when faced with contradictions in the bible or with a lack of scientific proof of God do they insist that, “You just gotta have faith”?

People are generally willing to accept and embrace scientific discoveries, some more quickly than others. They may praise the scientific process or deductive reasoning that finds the cure for their grandma’s illness. But if science e.g. evidences for evolution; appears to contradict God or the bible, they fall back on faith and reject logic and reason.

How can I be encouraged to use my mind, to solve puzzles, to make the world a better place, except when it comes to God or faith. To me, it makes no sense to believe in supernatural being who controls the world, but cannot be seen or heard. But, out of a fear of hell, I tell myself that I must set aside logic and reason and simply believe. I know it does not make sense, but that’s why they call it believing. Right?



I know there are things in this world that humans haven’t solved and don’t understand yet, for instance abiogenesis. There may even be things that we never figure out until a very distant future. But I have a problem with attributing the currently unknown to God’s power. In the past we believed that many things worked, just because God made them work. And then we discovered laws of gravity and motion, and the realm of the unknown shrank. In fact, over time the realm of “it just works because God makes it work” has steadily given way to scientific debate, theories, and laws that explain the workings of the universe. So it seems that, historically, God has been used to explain those things which science had not been able to explain yet. So, why should I believe by faith obeying a God whose span of control seems to shrink every day as science and logic explains the mysteries that were once thought to be his handiworks?

musKeeto:
For without faith, it is impossible to please God..
Fatih, substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen...

And someone tries to defend this with reason, laughable..

did you not see there that faith is called evident demonstraion of realities though not yet Beheld?

"Evident demonstration of realities" lead to faith.

As such faith is assured owing to the demonstrated realities.

The bible also says, "add to you faith knowledge."

So, faith can only be sustain by knowledge, Without it the faith has no foundation.

And the knowledge enable one to have or demonstrate the reasons or realities of things to come though not yet Beheld.

How then can you have faith without a sound knowledge that should enable the demonstration of reasons/realities that will build and lead to having faith?

Mr_Anony:


I'll leave for you a bible verse to ponder.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. Prov 25:2 (KJV)

or perhaps you'll prefer this version...

God delights in concealing things; scientists delight in discovering things. Prov 25:2 (MSG)

na wa for our modern day apologists and bible twisters o.

@ bolded, when did kings and scientists begin to have the same meaning?

small time now they will twist science and faith to have the same meaning.

na real wa o

Mr_Anony:
. . .
[/i]
How does this relate to faith and reason? Simple (notice that at no point in the following steps do we discard reason), we start with an observable fact, we seek the originator, when we have found the originator, we ask the explanation of the fact. We can only know this explanation through revelation, we observe another aspect of this fact and we must rely on the originator to give further explanation.....and so on and so forth.
This is what my faith is all about - absolute reliance on the originator of all things. I know who God is and I totally rely on Him. . . .

Could be one way to understand/explain Augustine's Crede, ut intelligas (believe, so that you may understand) and Anselm's Credo ut intellegam (I believe so that I may understand).

cyrexx: Okay, let us assume God exists and he God gave us the desire to learn and to expand our knowledge. This should be a fairly acceptable assumption for most people, atheists, deists and religionists. Based on this, why does God place so much emphasis on faith? Or should I say, why do Christians place so much emphasis on faith? Why when faced with contradictions in the bible or with a lack of scientific proof of God do they insist that, “You just gotta have faith”?

People are generally willing to accept and embrace scientific discoveries, some more quickly than others. They may praise the scientific process or deductive reasoning that finds the cure for their grandma’s illness. But if science appears to contradict God or the bible, they fall back on faith and reject logic and reason.

How can I be encouraged to use my mind, to solve puzzles, to make the world a better place, except when it comes to God or faith. To me, it makes no sense to believe in supernatural being who controls the world, but cannot be seen or heard. But, out of a fear of hell, I tell myself that I must set aside logic and reason and simply believe. I know it does not make sense, but that’s why they call it believing. Right?



I know there are things in this world that humans haven’t solved and don’t understand yet, for instance abiogenesis i.e. how life originated from matter. There may even be things that we never figure out until a very distant future. But I have a problem with attributing the currently unknown to God’s power. In the past we believed that many things worked, just because God made them work. And then we discovered laws of gravity and motion, and the realm of the unknown shrank. In fact, over time the realm of “it just works because God makes it work” has steadily given way to scientific debate, theories, and laws that explain the workings of the universe. So it seems that, historically, God has been used to explain those things which science had not been able to explain yet. So, why should I believe by faith obeying a God whose span of control seems to shrink every day as science and logic explains the mysteries that were once thought to be his handiworks?

My friend, the problem you have is with blind faith. the sad thing it seems to me is that you have replaced blind faith in God with blind faith in what we call scientism.

Faith is: "God did it".
Science is: "How did God do it?"
Philosophy is: "Why did God do it?"

........The correct understanding of this relationship is what it means to be a rational being.