chukwudi44:

By making fun of a canonised scripture like the book of macabees.In case you don't know more detailed work about the life of the macabees are found in writings of secular historians most notable josephus.The macabees ruled over judea from the mid second century BCE till the roman conquest of judea by pompey in 63 BCE

I do have the deuterocanonical and aprocyphal bible,I read them ofcourse.But the general bible doesnt have this books.
Besides if dont have any problem with first macabees,but second macabees,since macabees wasnt not sure of what He wrote in the second book,why should I.

chukwudi44: Romans 1:3-4
New King James Version (NKJV)

3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

This makes it clear Jesus was a descendant of david according to the flesh.He got his flesh and blood from mary who was descended from the clan of david

No one is disputing the fact that Mary is/was the earthly mother of Jesus,but Mary was never the mother of God.The fact that Jesus said I and my Father and one in John 10:30,doesnt equate Mary to being the mother of God.When Jesus was on earth,God the father was in Heaven,so explain how Mary became the motther of God.

chukwudi44:
Except Jesus didn't search d heavens well enough to see where elijah and all the other partriachs of old were hidi

But the fact remains elijah was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind.

Give me time and I will trash this outI definately have to go check the greek/hebrew word used by Jesus and the one in used by Elijah.Need to do my research,will get back to you on this point.
May I ask you where you got your fact from(the fact remains that Elijah ..........),maybe that will ssave me the stress of doing any research.

k2039:
No one is disputing the fact that Mary is/was the earthly mother of Jesus,but Mary was never the mother of God.The fact that Jesus said I and my Father and one in John 10:30,doesnt equate Mary to being the mother of God.When Jesus was on earth,God the father was in Heaven,so explain how Mary became the motther of God.

The trinity doctrine is responsible for that my bro....

If I was a trinitarian I would uphold d fact that mary is the mother of God...

Why??

If Jesus while in mary's womb was GOD incarnate,and after birth was fully GOD and fully man....then what is wrong if mary is called the mother of GOD??

U can't seperate those 2 doctrines....they must go together.....

chukwudi44:
What makes hers so special is that she was the only one chosen and specially prepared to bring forth the messiah into the world.I know everyone were born virgins including pornstars but not everyone remained chaste.

Someone definitely hard to be chosen,no big deal about that,that was God's grace on her(that was why Gabriel refered to her as highly favored),and I know Mary was a good mum,if not God wouldnt have given her that privilege.
If your statement is anything to go by(not everyone remained chaste),I assume your chaste doesnt mean morally upright,but that she remained a virgin throughout her lifetime.If my assumption is right,then you are wrong.Mary didnt and never remained a virgin.

Area_boy:

and how do you know this?
Do you have evidence for this? or you just running on speculations and assumptions?

its not assumption.the family members of jesus didnt believe in him at first. but they became vital followers of christ when he died.Mary often disturbed his public ministry indirectly but she jou ed the desciples while waiting for the holyghost. Mary recieved the holyghost too, which proved she was born again. she waited for the holyghost along with other apostles in the upper room.

Act 1:14
14 All of these with their minds in full agreement devoted themselves steadfastly to prayer, [waiting together] with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

ijawkid:
If Jesus while in mary's womb was GOD incarnate,and after birth was fully GOD and fully man....then what is wrong if mary is called the mother of GOD??

I cant stop laughing,you are so funny.
John 1:14.The word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 1:1.In the begining was the word.............
Genesis1:1 In the begining God created.............
The last two verses made it so clear that Jesus existed before the whole creation,and Mary was not present there,so she pre-existed Mary,but for God to fulfil the plan of redemption as He said in Genesis 3:15,Jesus had to come in human form(also read hebrews4:15,so you know why He had to come as flesh).
Jesus himself made it clear while he was on earth that God the father was in heaven(Matthew7:21,Matthew10:32,their are lot of references pointing to the fact that God the father was in heaven).So explain to me how,Mary is/was the mother of God.
Mary was never the mother of God,the fact that Jesus said His Father and He are one doesnt equate to Mary being the mother of God.
If thats what your papacy is teaching you,then the papacy is wrong.Last time I checked the first pope(Peter) never said anything like Jesus being the mother of God.
I know one of the apsotles said something like 'Mary mother of our Lord',cant remember the verse but he was right anyway,since Jesus was our Lord.
But the whole point is even Mary understands that Jesus was her own Lord and Savior,and that the only reason she had to mother Him was because God needed a womb to fulfil his plan of redemption,and she was just lucky to be chosen,and I know she will be ever grateful to God for that.

Joagbaje:
Mary recieved the holyghost too, which proved she was born again. she waited along with other apostles

Act 1:14
14 All of these with their minds in full agreement devoted themselves steadfastly to prayer, [waiting together] with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

The fact that one is baptised with the Holy ghost doesnt mean one will make it to heaven,one could backslide after receiving the Holy ghost.
Your assumption will be that after her baptism with the Holy ghost,she remained that way till her death(she remained in Christ till her death).
But the fact remains that we dont have any fact about her death,so why should I assume she died in the Lord.
Am not saying she might not be a saint,but my point is their is no evidence to support her sainthood.So praying to her as a saint is foolish when you cant prove beyond reasonable doubt that she is a saint.
Besides praying to a saint is not even biblical,it's a HOAX.
Even we dont pray to Jesus our Lord and savior,we only use is name as access when we pray,we pray to God and God only(John 16).
Joagbaje I know you know that,just trying to make a point clear to our catholic friends.

k2039:
I cant stop laughing,you are so funny.
John 1:14.The word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 1:1.In the begining was the word.............
Genesis1:1 In the begining God created.............
The last two verses made it so clear that Jesus existed before the whole creation,and Mary was not present there,so she pre-existed Mary,but for God to fulfil the plan of redemption as He said in Genesis 3:15,Jesus had to come in human form(also read hebrews4:15,so you know why He had to come as flesh).
Jesus himself made it clear while he was on earth that God the father was in heaven(Matthew7:21,Matthew10:32,their are lot of references pointing to the fact that God the father was in heaven).So explain to me how,Mary is/was the mother of God.
Mary was never the mother of God,the fact that Jesus said His Father and He are one doesnt equate to Mary being the mother of God.
If thats what your papacy is teaching you,then the papacy is wrong.Last time I checked the first pope(Peter) never said anything like Jesus being the mother of God.
I know one of the apsotles said something like 'Mary mother of our Lord',cant remember the verse but he was right anyway,since Jesus was our Lord.
But the whole point is even Mary understands that Jesus was her own Lord and Savior,and that the only reason she had to mother Him was because God needed a womb to fulfil his plan of redemption,and she was just lucky to be chosen,and I know she will be ever grateful to God for that.

Oh so are u of the opinion that God the Father and Jesus christ are 2 different persons and that Jesus christ was not GOD while on earth??

k2039:
The fact that one is baptised with the Holy ghost doesnt mean one will make it to heaven,one could backslide after receiving the Holy ghost.
Your assumption will be that after her baptism with the Holy ghost,she remained that way till her death(she remained in Christ till her death).
But the fact remains that we dont have any fact about her death,so why should I assume she died in the Lord.
Am not saying she might not be a saint,but my point is their is no evidence to support her sainthood.So praying to her as a saint is foolish when you cant prove beyond reasonable doubt that she is a saint.
Besides praying to a saint is not even biblical,it's a HOAX.
Even we dont pray to Jesus our Lord and savior,we only use is name as access when we pray,we pray to God and God only(John 16).
Joagbaje I know you know that,just trying to make a point clear to our catholic friends.

Yes I agree . But you don't see to get my point. The sainthood of Mary is not based on her death . So there's nothing so special about the sainthood of Mary .The sainthood of Mary is the fact that she believe in God. Every christian is a saint and it's on that ground that Mart became a saint too. I am a saint.

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. . .

Joagbaje:

Yes I agree . But you don't see to get my point. The sainthood of Mary is not based on her death . So there's nothing so special about the sainthood of Mary .The sainthood of Mary is the fact that she believe in God. Every christian is a saint and it's on that ground that Mart became a saint too. I am a saint.

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. . .

I understand your point,I know we are Saints ,afterall we are the rightousness of God in Christ Jesus(2Corinthians5:21),funny enough my facebook name has a saint in front of my name at a point in time,2yrs ago.Besides I think they also need to know that we are also a royal priest(1Peter2:9,Revelation 1:6).
Just wondering on what basis is/was Mary a saint to the catholic,and if that is/was enough reason to pray through her(afterall have heard they dont pray to her but they pray through her,just wondering what their marian worship is all about then).I need a convincing answer from a catholic,and maybe I could just become a catholic,just want the person to prove it to me beyond reasonable doubt,and I promise the person that I will be in his/her church on Sunday for mass.
The fact that mary was able to convince Jesus to turn water to wine at Cana doesnt mean Mary has much say over Jesus(Read Mark3:32-36),that is not enough reason to pray through her.So I need a good point from chukwudi44
So I need a good point from chukwudi,a catholic or any marian in the house(afterall Blessed Saint Pope John Paul 2nd said he is a marian and that every marian beleives in Jesus but not everyone who beleives in Jesus is a marian).
Thats is a statement from the a supposedly head of the church(catholics claim that the pope is the head of the church).The papacy is realy a big hoax and scam.

ijawkid:

Oboy consider Jesus words and find a way to understand when d bible says elijah was taken up into heaven.....

That's d problem with u....

That scripture I quoted just hit d nail on the head that elijah isn't in heaven....

Jesus who had been in heaven just testified to that,,,,,,

Do ur home work and find out which heaven elijah went to....

Need I remind u that after that incident elijah still did pen down more prophecies and proclamations....

Do ur research bro and stop this stiff necked argument.....

Ask urself why Jesus would say no one has ascended into heaven......

Did Jesus suffer from memory loss or there is a better explanation...

As a bible student u shuld compare scriptures to conclude on a doctrine....

Thanks....

If points are clear ,u make adjustments and move on....

No one gets hurt....thanks

Except you mean to tell me that the writer of 2 kings was drunk I won't agree with you

k2039:
I do have the deuterocanonical and aprocyphal bible,I read them ofcourse.But the general bible doesnt have this books.
Besides if dont have any problem with first macabees,but second macabees,since macabees wasnt not sure of what He wrote in the second book,why should I.

My man there is nothing like general bible.I would prefer you use the phrase incomplete bible.The bible is used to describe the entire 73 books that were canonised in the fourth century.It is used by the entire churches of apostolic origin including RCC,eastern and oriental orthodox churches

k2039:
No one is disputing the fact that Mary is/was the earthly mother of Jesus,but Mary was never the mother of God.The fact that Jesus said I and my Father and one in John 10:30,doesnt equate Mary to being the mother of God.When Jesus was on earth,God the father was in Heaven,so explain how Mary became the motther of God.

Are you by any means implying that while on earth Jesus was not God.Was his divinity suspended during his earthly sojourn

ijawkid:

Oh so are u of the opinion that God the Father and Jesus christ are 2 different persons

Prove otherwise.
God,Jesus and Holyspirit are all part of the Godhead.
Jesus Christ said a lot about God being in heaven.
John 4:16.I will pray the father and He shall send you another comforter(refering to the Holy Spirit).It definitely shows three difernt people,the Father,Jesus and the Holy spirit.
John10:30.I and my Father are one(very straight forward statement,their are two differnt people,the Father and Jesus).
I beleive Jesus wasnt a superman when He was on earth,that He was really human (Hebrews4:15,Genesis3:15),I beleive His perfection was because He was filled with the Holy Spirit(Matthew4:1),and He was really close to His father while He was here on earth(Mark1:35).That was why He could tell us that we could do greater works than His.
Paraphrasing His statement will mean,If I could do it,you can do it and even more.
Just check the bible references and you will understand what I mean.
Also check Luke23:46.
Think about it,if they werent,then why should Jesu pray to Him.(Mark1:35)

ijawkid:

The trinity doctrine is responsible for that my bro....

If I was a trinitarian I would uphold d fact that mary is the mother of God...

Why??

If Jesus while in mary's womb was GOD incarnate,and after birth was fully GOD and fully man....then what is wrong if mary is called the mother of GOD??

U can't seperate those 2 doctrines....they must go together.....

This was the exact question posed to bishop nestor of constantinopole in the council of ephesus

"The child mary carried in her womb was he man or God?" I think the answer to this question will settle it.

@ijaw kid

Since you are not a trinitarian I would rather spend my energy convincing you on Jesus's divinity but for those who claim to be trinitarians yet refuse to honour her as the mother of God on what basis rests your convictions

k2039:
Prove otherwise.
God,Jesus and Holyspirit are all part of the Godhead.
Jesus Christ said a lot about God being in heaven.
John 4:16.I will pray the father and He shall send you another comforter(refering to the Holy Spirit).It definitely shows three difernt people,the Father,Jesus and the Holy spirit.
John10:30.I and my Father are one(very straight forward statement,their are two differnt people,the Father and Jesus).
I beleive Jesus wasnt a superman when He was on earth,that He was really human (Hebrews4:15,Genesis3:15),I beleive His perfection was because He was filled with the Holy Spirit(Matthew4:1),and He was really close to His father while He was here on earth(Mark1:35).That was why He could tell us that we could do greater works than His.
Paraphrasing His statement will mean,If I could do it,you can do it and even more.
Just check the bible references and you will understand what I mean.
Also check Luke23:46.
Think about it,if they werent,then why should Jesu pray to Him.(Mark1:35)

In essence what you are trying to say is that while on earth Jesus wasn't God and you don't believe in the trinity?

@op and ijaw kid

I had assumed I was talking with trinitarian christians.The high esteem the virgin Mary is held in the roman catholic,eastern and oriental orthodox churches is based on the premise that she was specially prepared to give birth to God the son.As the source of Jesus's flesh and blood we believe she was conceived immaculately and specially preserved from original sin to avoid tainting the christ.

So if you don't believe in Jesus's divine nature it is natural you would not feel the same way and hence the essence of this debate should be on the trinity.we have been arguing whether the faithful departed are in heaven and can pray for us and this I have been able to proove with the story of moses and elijah and the visions of Judas macabees which is also part of biblical canon(ireespective of what you feel).I have also proven as per Rev 5:8 and rev 8:3-4 that the people in heaven present our prayers to God.

On that basis and also with several extra biblical testimonoies do we always based our beleives on the veneration of saints.This implies that we can communicate with the saints in heaven by asking them to pray for us.The honour is not the exclusive preserve of the virgin Mary but she is the most venerated because of her special relationship with her.

I must say that I don't require you to believe in this.Yopu are entitled to your own opinion but I just want to explain the rudiments of catholics's marian beleigs to those who are truly ignorant and want to know

chukwudi44:

In essence what you are trying to say is that while on earth Jesus wasn't God and you don't believe in the trinity?

1John5:7.I beleive in the trinity,but Jesus was never God,or else He wouldnt have prayed to God when He was on earth,and He wouldnt be interceeding for us now,if He was God.
Think about it,the Isrealite refer to God has Elohim(and you think that it is a coincidence that elohim means Governing council).
Besides in Genesis1:26,Let US make my in our own image .........Us shows that they are more than one.
My whole summary is that God the Father,Jesus and Holy Spirit are three different persons but the three make up the Godhead,that we refer to trinity.
The God we refer to is actually GOd the father.
Or maybe you proove otherwwise

I don't think you really understand the meaning of the term trinity.I would leave it for you to google and study iy.

I would have to go back to sleep now.I had such a long joutney,we will continue our discussion tomorrow.Tkia and God bless

chukwudi44: @op and ijaw kid

The high esteem the virgin Mary is held in the roman catholic,eastern and oriental orthodox churches is based on the premise that she was specially prepared to give birth to God the son.As the source of Jesus's flesh and blood we believe she was conceived immaculately and specially preserved from original sin to avoid tainting the christ.

On that basis and also with several extra biblical testimonoies do we always based our beleives on the veneration of saints.The honour is not the exclusive preserve of the virgin Mary but she is the most venerated because of her special relationship with her

The bible said in John5:39,Search the scriptures ...........Your basis for the immaculate conception is based on what someone said(am sure it will be one of your past pope),but the fact remains that there was no record of any immaculate conception in the bible(probably have not found it,so refer me ,if their is any ).
If I were to follow your assumption on immaculate conception,the fact that Mary's conception by her parent wasnt immaculate is enough reason to defile her and taint her(afterall her father slept with her mother to concieve her except you want to prove otherwise).
Mary refered to Jesus as Lord and Savior,I think it will stand to reson that if she was sinless,she wouldnt have refered to Him as savior.There is no where in the bible where Mary was portraid as sinless.I know your basis for the immaculate conception is because you beleived what you were told.Open your mind to the scriptures,dont read it with preconcieve mindset,search for your self and you will realise that the whole immacultate conception thing is ARRANT NONSENCE,there is only one person that was sinless and that was Our Lord Jesus.

Is veneration of saint biblical?,if it is refer me,and if not the whole thing is a HOAX.
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO GOD,AND THAT IS JESUS,NOT A SAINT (JOHN14:6)

chukwudi44: I don't think you really understand the meaning of the term trinity.I would leave it for you to google and study iy.

I would have to go back to sleep now.I had such a long joutney,we will continue our discussion tomorrow.Tkia and God bless

Goodnight,Have a great night rest.God bless you too.
I dont understand the concept of trinity,I agree with you,then exlain to me with biblical references and not some assumptions made by some pope or cardinals or some priest.
Act17:11 is something I do,so you have to back your explanation with the bible(mind you I dont mean taking the bibile out of context.)

k2039:
The bible said in John5:39,Search the scriptures ...........Your basis for the immaculate conception is based on what someone said(am sure it will be one of your past pope),but the fact remains that there was no record of any immaculate conception in the bible(probably have not found it,so refer me ,if their is any ).
If I were to follow your assumption on immaculate conception,the fact that Mary's conception by her parent wasnt immaculate is enough reason to defile her and taint her(afterall her father slept with her mother to concieve her except you want to prove otherwise).
Mary refered to Jesus as Lord and Savior,I think it will stand to reson that if she was sinless,she wouldnt have refered to Him as savior.There is no where in the bible where Mary was portraid as sinless.I know your basis for the immaculate conception is because you beleived what you were told.Open your mind to the scriptures,dont read it with preconcieve mindset,search for your self and you will realise that the whole immacultate conception thing is ARRANT NONSENCE,there is only one person that was sinless and that was Our Lord Jesus.

Is veneration of saint biblical?,if it is refer me,and if not the whole thing is a HOAX.
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO GOD,AND THAT IS JESUS,NOT A SAINT (JOHN14:6)

At this point I must explicitly state that I do not practise sola bible.The dogma on itks own lacks biblical basis.Even the creation of the bible itself by the catholic church of the fourth century has no biblical basis.

I believe in the immaculate conception because the virgin mary herself confirmed it @ lourdes during her apparition to st bernedeate.

The books and action of Jeremiah was not included in the scriptural writings of his day,it does not mean his prophecies were fake to people of his day because it was not in their then scriptures.

The word bible is not mentioned any where in the scriptures.We know only 73 scriptures were canonised but they is no where it is written that they should be our only source of spiritual guidance.That's why we have today write ups by differant pastors but they key defining factor is that any new revelation should not contradict the already existing scriptures

The word trinity is not mentioned anywhere in the bible.but the concept of trinity is explined in the bible.it was also explicitly taught by the apostolic fathers and other church fathers who had the opportunity of hearing from the apostles.By simple definition,trinity is defined as stated below;

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons (Greek: ὑποστάσεις):[1] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial (Greek: ὁμοούσιοι).

This was the definition given by those who coined the term.Any other view about the God head should be given another nomenclature as this one is already taken.

You may find some detailed explaination of the trinitarian doctrine in the link below.

http://www.google.com/gwt/x?hl=en&u=http://www.contenderministries.org/biblestudy/trinity.php&client=ms-rim&q=biblical+proof+of+trinity&sa=X&ei=b3U0UImVK4SU0QXhyIGABg&ved=0CCIQFjAC

chukwudi44: The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons (Greek: ὑποστάσεις):[1] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial (Greek: ὁμοούσιοι)

How is everything above different from what I explained,become someone says their is a concept called trinity is not enough reason for me to beleive,I digged up the scripture myself and came out with all the points above.
The issue with you is just that you tend to accept everything you told by your leaders,without checking it for yourself.
The definitin you wrote,was copied from somewhere,you should have taken your time to explain,if you really understood the concept.
The point is the whole definition above is not different from what have explained,so I dont understand why you think I dont understand the concept of trinity,for every statement I made I gave you atleast a biblical reference to back it up.
Lets look at what you wrote above.The three persons are distinct and yet coexist,it so obvious that the three persons are different,my whole point is Jesus was never the Father at anypoint intime.
I understand your point anyway,that the word God should refer to the combination of the three persons,but even still at that Jesus cant be called God,because Its the combination of the three persons that make up God(since you dont want me to use the Godhead,and besides I refer to the Father as God),It wont still be right to call Mary the mother of God,Since God refers to the three persons and Mary ofcourse didnt give birth to the other two(God and Holy Spirit).
So saying Mary is the mother of God is fallacious,Mary was never the mother of God(Since your God refers to trinity) and never will,she gave birth to only the earthly Jesus and not the Father nor the Holy Spirit.

Even though the exact true nature of the trinity remains a mystery.each of them have the full nature of God in them.Jesus christ is fully God ditto the holy spirit and the father.They don't have to be together to become God.

chukwudi44:
I believe in the immaculate conception because the virgin mary herself confirmed it @ lourdes during her apparition to st bernedeate.

I BELEIVE IN THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF JESUS(ISAIH7:14,MATTHEW1:18).MY POINT IS JUST THAT MARY WASNT HOLY AS YOU CLAIM,SHE NEEDED A SAVIOR JUST LIKE EVERYONE,SHE WAS A SINNER LIKE EVERYOTHER PERSON(THE WHOLE IMMACULATE STUFF MEAN THE CONCEPTION WAS WITHOUT SEX,SHE DIDNT SLEEP WITH ANYONE,BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN SHE WAS PURE OR FREE FROM SIN,EXCEPT YOU WANT TO TELL ME THAT THE TERM SIN REFERS TO ONLY SEX ALONE,THEN WILL I AGREE SHE WAS WITHOUT SIN).
I BELEIVE IN THE TRINITY(1JOHN5:7),THAT GOD IS MADE UP OF THE FATHER,SON AND HOLYSPIRIT,AND THAT THE THREE PERSONS ARE DISTINCT.

k2039:
The bible said in John5:39,Search the scriptures ...........Your basis for the immaculate conception is based on what someone said(am sure it will be one of your past pope),but the fact remains that there was no record of any immaculate conception in the bible(probably have not found it,so refer me ,if their is any ).
If I were to follow your assumption on immaculate conception,the fact that Mary's conception by her parent wasnt immaculate is enough reason to defile her and taint her(afterall her father slept with her mother to concieve her except you want to prove otherwise).
Mary refered to Jesus as Lord and Savior,I think it will stand to reson that if she was sinless,she wouldnt have refered to Him as savior.There is no where in the bible where Mary was portraid as sinless.I know your basis for the immaculate conception is because you beleived what you were told.Open your mind to the scriptures,dont read it with preconcieve mindset,search for your self and you will realise that the whole immacultate conception thing is ARRANT NONSENCE. (JOHN14:6)

I made a mistake that the bible didnt record any immaculate conception,what I meant was mary wasnt conceive immaculately by her parent,that is enough reason to defile her and make her a sinner(Jesus was immaculate because His own conception was done by the Holy Spirit(Isaiah7:14,Mathew1:18).

My whole point is Jesus' Holy/immaculate conception by Mary and the Holy Spirit doesnt prove to us that Mary was free from sin,So far Mary's conception by her parent was a result of the union of her father and mother,that alone defiles her and makes her a sinner,Everyone born of a man has a sinful status,all have sinned and mary is not an exception.
Study your Bible.

[size=14pt]Contention over Nestorius' teachings, which he developed during his studies at the School of Antioch, largely revolved around his rejection of the long-used title Theotokos ("Mother of God" for the Virgin Mary.[/size] His enemy, Cyril of Alexandria, appealed to Pope Celestine I, charging Nestorius with heresy. The Pope agreed and gave Cyril his authority to serve a notice to Nestorius to recant his views or else be excommunicated. Before the summons arrived, Nestorius convinced the Emperor Theodosius II to hold a general council, a platform to argue their opposing views. Approximately 250 bishops were present. The proceedings were conducted in a heated atmosphere of confrontation and recriminations. It is believed to have been the Third Ecumenical Council by the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, and a number of other Western Christian groups. The council's rejection of Nestorius precipitated the Nestorian Schism, in which a number of churches broke with the Orthodox Church and became what was later known as the Church of the East. It is still rejected by the heirs to the Nestorian movement in the Assyrian Church of the East.

Nestorianism emphasized the dual natures of Christ. Patriarch Nestorius tried to answer a question considered unsolved: "How can Jesus Christ, being part man, not be partially a sinner as well, since man is by definition a sinner since the Fall". To solve that he taught that Mary, the mother of Jesus gave birth to the incarnate Christ, not the divine Logos who existed before Mary and indeed before time itself. The Logos occupied the part of the human soul (the part of man that was stained by the Fall). But wouldn't the absence of a human soul make Jesus less human? No, Nestorius answered, because the human soul was based on the archetype of the Logos, only to become polluted by the Fall. Jesus was "more" human for having the Logos and not "less". Consequently, Mary should be called Christotokos, Greek for the "birth giver of Christ" and not Theotokos, Greek for the "God bearer". Cyril argued that Nestorianism split Jesus in half and denied that he was both human and divine. This was essentially a Christological controversy.

Although the Nestorian bishops had not yet arrived at the council, at the urging of its president, Cyril of Alexandria, the Council denounced Nestorius' teaching as erroneous and decreed that Jesus was one person, not two separate people: complete God and complete man, with a rational soul and body. The Virgin Mary was to be called Theotokos this word originating from Greek language "means god bearer".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Ephesus

The problem with this divine Mary Malarkey is that it directly involves the nature of Jesus Christ himself. Once you accept the notion of Original sin, Ie that we inherit our sinful nature from Adam our common ancestor then we find ourselves in a dilemma over the nature of Christ. Since christ was born of woman then he too must have the sinful nature. Remember the formula: you're not a sinner because you sin, you sin because you're a sinner.
The Sin follows from the sinful nature and not the other way around.
Well where does that leave Christ? He too must have inherited the sinful nature and so must be damned with all of Adam's descendants so how could he be the perfect sacrifice to carry all our sins? What about his own sins? Whether or not he actually committed any sins is not the matter. The matter is that he is a sinner by nature. Mary would have passed on her sinful nature unto him, no?
Unless Mary too was without sin!! Ye paripa!! The theological somersault that I will have to do to scale this conundrum is beyond my mental capacity o, I beg una. It is late and I have to go to sleep. night night. . . .



The above was from an old thread: https://www.nairaland.com/679579/pope-declares-being-catholic-meant#8430359

k2039: My whole point is Jesus' Holy/immaculate conception by Mary and the Holy Spirit doesnt prove to us that Mary was free from sin,So far Mary's conception by her parent was a result of the union of her father and mother,that alone defiles her and makes her a sinner,Everyone born of a man has a sinful status,all have sinned and mary is not an exception.
Study your Bible.

Since Mary inherited sinful nature from her parents then shouldn't Jesus too inherit sinful nature from Mary. What blocked Mary's sinful nature from being passed on to Jesus? Maybe the block occurred between Mary's parents and Mary so that Mary was in fact sinless.