MATTHEW 20:1-16
“For the Kingdom of Heaven is like the landowner who went out early one morning to hire workers for his vineyard. He AGREED to pay the normal daily wage and sent them out to work.
At nine o’clock in the morning he was passing through the marketplace and saw some people standing around doing nothing. So he hired them, telling them he would pay them whatever was right at the end of the day. So they went to work in the vineyard. At noon and again at three o’clock he did the same thing.
At five o’clock that afternoon he was in town again and saw some more people standing around. He asked them, ‘why haven’t you been working today?’
They replied, ‘Because no one has hired us.’
“The landowners told them, ‘then go out and join the others in my vineyard.’
That evening he told the foreman to call the workers in and pay them, beginning with the last workers first. When those hire at five o’clock were paid. Each received a full day’s wage. When those hired first came to get their pay, they assumed they would receive more. But they, too, were paid a day’s wage. When they received their pay, they protested to the owner, “Those people worked only one hour, and yet you paid them just as much as you paid us who worked all the day in the scorching heat.’
He answered one of them, ‘Friend, I haven’t been unfair! Didn’t you agree to work all day for the usual wage? Take your money and go. I wanted to pay this last worker the same as you. Is it against the law for me to do WHAT I WANT WITH MY MONEY? Should you be jealous because I am kind to others?’
So those who are last now will be first then, and those who are first will be last.”


WOW!

This goes to confirm that the Lord’s thoughts are nothing like our thoughts and his ways are far beyond anything we can imagine. In the worldly context of fairness and standard, this showering of grace will be referred to as, unfair, unreasonable, unnecessary and excessive. The workers who worked for one hour will be deemed not to merit the wages they earned. But in the eyes of God, they worth every penny earned.

Why?

Romans 9:14 -16
“Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to ANYONE I CHOOSE, I will show compassion to ANYONE I CHOOSE.” So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

The lesson learnt in the above parable can be found in Galatians 6:4
“Pay careful attention to your own work, for then you will get the satisfaction of a job well done, and you won’t need to compare yourself to anyone else.”

It is God who sets the standard on how he gives grace freely to those he chooses. Whether they deserve it or not, it is not our business. Why waste time nose-diving inside another person’s business.

Food for thought eh !
God bless.

WTF? How do you know that god has had mercy on you? So from your write-up god aint fair right? If god as purpoted by religion exist then he is unfair and i dont even have to list the reasons

@mymyers45

How do I know that God had/has mercy on me?

Looking at my past, present and future, it is obvious that the mercy of God is upon me

Don't be offended by my writeup bro

yommyuk: @mymyers45

How do I know that God had/has mercy on me?

Looking at my past, present and future, it is obvious that the mercy of God is upon me

Don't be offended by my writeup bro

How is it obvious?

If a god created us and he also created hell to put us in unless we know exactly which sect of which religion is the correct belief, then that god is actually evil, especially if he is all powerful and all-knowing. If he created people already knowing which if them is going to hell, then that is a god I want no part of. But if all is forgiven (including my atheism), then I could accept that God is fair.

onetrack: If a god created us and he also created hell to put us in unless we know exactly which sect of which religion is the correct belief, then that god is actually evil, especially if he is all powerful and all-knowing. If he created people already knowing which if them is going to hell, then that is a god I want no part of. But if all is forgiven (including my atheism), then I could accept that God is fair.

Would it be fair for a judge to pardon a man who stole, killed many and raped women, all in the name of fairness?

Reyginus: Would it be fair for a judge to pardon a man who stole, killed many and raped women, all in the name of fairness?

Yes, it would be fair, if that judge was the creator of both the criminal and his victims, and who willed that all of those crimes happen, being all-powerful and having the ability to prevent such events but doing nothing to stop it. But then such a judge would be evil at the same time.

We live in a world that is not our own but created by God. You may be born in southern Sudan to a very poor family or to a royal family in Western Europe, whom do you blame? Or you are born with all your body parts and organs intact while somebody born across the road was born blind. Is God unfair?

onetrack:

Yes, it would be fair, if that judge was the creator of both the criminal and his victims, and who willed that all of those crimes happen, being all-powerful and having the ability to prevent such events but doing nothing to stop it. But then such a judge would be evil at the same time.

He never willed him to be a criminal. He gave us freewill that we may be held responsible for the choices we make. Yes. His having mercy on the criminal is what makes him a merciful judge.But when after the mercy and forgiveness, the same scenerio keeps repeating itself to an extent, his period of grace elapsed. Would it still be unfair to condemn him to hell?

onetrack: If a god created us and he also created hell to put us in unless we know exactly which sect of which religion is the correct belief, then that god is actually evil, especially if he is all powerful and all-knowing. If he created people already knowing which if them is going to hell, then that is a god I want no part of. But if all is forgiven (including my atheism), then I could accept that God is fair.

Hell is not a concept in itself , it is simply a place to punish and extinguish the lives of those who choose to practise lawlessness and wickedness.

If God does not destroy the wicked, evil will be a continual presence in the new world. I say God forbid.

God is righteous and cannot dwell with wickedness in his new heaven and new earth.

Can you not see how this earth has been marred by so much evil , it has to be restored to it's original state and even better, but wicked men and women will be denied eternal life and put to death irreversibly.

We do not question our justice system when they remove murderers, thieves, paedophiles and such from society to protect you and me , so why should we complain when God has said he will do the same.

"The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil." - Matthew 13:41

2 Samuel 23:6 But evil men are all to be cast aside like thorns, which are not gathered with the hand.

So HELL is not eternal torment, it is a method for the destruction of evil and evil doers.

Reyginus: He never willed him to be a criminal. He gave us freewill that we may be held responsible for the choices we make. Yes. His having mercy on the criminal is what makes him a merciful judge.But when after the mercy and forgiveness, the same scenerio keeps repeating itself to an extent, his period of grace elapsed. Would it still be unfair to condemn him to hell?

So if God does not know what choices we will make then he is not all-knowing and therefore not all powerful. In any case, 'free will' is only believed by a minority of monotheists. Most believe in predestination.

@ frosbel
So HELL is not eternal torment, it is a method for the destruction of evil and evil doers.

I am loving the above description of HELL.

A METHOD of purging the world of evil

However, as u quoted "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil." - Matthew 13:41

Absolutely! So I (and implore u do likewise ) choose to worry not about THEM

Psalm 37:1-2
“Don’t worry about the wicked or envy those who do wrong. For like grass, they soon fade away. Like spring flower, they soon wither.

BUT I CHOOSE TO DO THIS
“Trust in the Lord and do good. Then you will live safely in the land and prosper.”

Cheers!

yommyuk: @ frosbel
So HELL is not eternal torment, it is a method for the destruction of evil and evil doers.

I am loving the above description of HELL.

A METHOD of purging the world of evil

However, as u quoted "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil." - Matthew 13:41

Absolutely! So I (and implore u do likewise ) choose to worry not about THEM

Psalm 37:1-2
“Don’t worry about the wicked or envy those who do wrong. For like grass, they soon fade away. Like spring flower, they soon wither.

BUT I CHOOSE TO DO THIS
“Trust in the Lord and do good. Then you will live safely in the land and prosper.”

Cheers!

Thank you , I agree .

onetrack:

So if God does not know what choices we will make then he is not all-knowing and therefore not all powerful. In any case, 'free will' is only believed by a minority of monotheists. Most believe in predestination.

You miss the point brother. 'All-knowing' does not make God the controller of our actions, because it will be a breach and contradiction of our freewill.
God dont have to control our actions to prove He's all-knowing. He also dont have to prevent us from doing them, to proof He's all-powerful.
All-knowing God= He knows everything, but wont control everythin.
All-powerful God= He can do everything, but He wont do everything.

Reyginus: You miss the point brother. 'All-knowing' does not make God the controller of our actions, because it will be a breach and contradiction of our freewill.
God dont have to control our actions to prove He's all-knowing. He also dont have to prevent us from doing them, to proof He's all-powerful.
All-knowing God= He knows everything, but wont control everythin.
All-powerful God= He can do everything, but He wont do everything.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not all-powerful. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is evil. Is he both able and willing? Then where does evil come from? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" --Epicurus

In any case nowhere have you proven that there is free will. If there truly is free will, and God allows innocent people to be victimized without doing anything, then he is not fair, in fact he is evil.

onetrack:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not all-powerful. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is evil. Is he both able and willing? Then where does evil come from? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" --Epicurus

In any case nowhere have you proven that there is free will. If there truly is free will, and God allows innocent people to be victimized without doing anything, then he is not fair, in fact he is evil.

Freewill is in your ability to chose the path of good or evil, and not an inborn drive to always strive for good or evil.
God will allow it, not because He is evil or unable, but because we are in our era of grace.
Now their are two contradicting questions, why is God punishing evil? Why is He doing nothing about present evil?lol. I will still help out.
The former is because the period of grace has expired, and the later, a day has been set aside for judgement.

Reyginus: Freewill is in your ability to chose the path of good or evil, and not an inborn drive to always strive for good.
God will allow it, not because He is evil or unable, but because we are in our era of grace.
Now their are two contradicting questions, why is God punishing evil? Why is He doing nothing about present evil?lol.
The former is because the period of grace has expired, and the later, a day has been set aside for judgement.

You'll have to prove this without the use of the Bible or any other 'holy' text before I'll agree with you.

onetrack:

You'll have to prove this without the use of the Bible or any other 'holy' text before I'll agree with you.

Have I in anyway in this discourse used the bible?

No!
God is not fair but MERCIFUL.
If God is fair, none of us will make it to Heaven.
He is merciful that is why we can make Heaven.

Reyginus: Have I in anyway in this discourse used the bible?

No, but what is asserted without evidence (the existence of God-given free will) may be dismissed without evidence.

denitro: No!
God is not fair but MERCIFUL.
If God is fair, none of us will make it to Heaven.
He is merciful that is why we can make Heaven.

And this mercy is based upon blind belief in a book of dubious origin? Or in good works/behavior?

onetrack:

No, but what is asserted without evidence (the existence of God-given free will) may be dismissed without evidence.

You are wrong again. Your typing here is an evidence of freewill.

Reyginus: You are wrong again. Your typing here is an evidence of freewill.

Prove that it was not the will of God that I typed this.

onetrack:

Prove that it was not the will of God that I typed this.

Lol.
Proof: If it wasnt for freewill, you wouldnt be condemning Him.

Reyginus: Lol.
Proof: If it wasnt for freewill, you wouldnt be condemning Him.

I could easily say that it is proof that God doesnt exist

MacDaddy01:


I could easily say that it is proof that God doesnt exist

Exactly.

MacDaddy01:


I could easily say that it is proof that God doesnt exist

What you say dont matter as long as it is not fact. You view of God as a violent father is wrong.

onetrack:

Exactly.

How exactly?

Reyginus: What you say dont matter as long as it is not fact. You view of God as a violent father is wrong.

Genesis

1)"I will destroy ... both man and beast."
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17


2)"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4


3)"All flesh died that moved upon the earth."
God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23


4)God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10

5)Sarai tells Abraham to "cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands him to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14

6)God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13
Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10
"Because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son."
Why did God love Abraham so much? Because he was willing to murder his son for him. (Greater evil hath no man than this, that he is willing to kill his own son for God.) 22:16

7)Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31

You dont have to quote all that to disproof anything.
Is it wrong to destroy the car I manufactured if it's malfunctioning?

Reyginus: You dont have to quote all that to disproof anything.
Is it wrong to destroy the car I manufactured if it's malfunctioning?

I don't get your analogy.

As far as the Bible is concerned, you don't have to eat a whole apple to know that it is rotten.

In addition, you have not shown that God gives free will. The fact that people do evil is no proof of anything. God can certainly will evil things to happen as part of a 'larger plan'. In addition, if God allows free will, then God cannot truly know the future, because God does not already know which path you will take. And if he does know, then free will does not truly exist.

onetrack:

I don't get your analogy.

As far as the Bible is concerned, you don't have to eat a whole apple to know that it is rotten.

In addition, you have not shown that God gives free will. The fact that people do evil is no proof of anything. God can certainly will evil things to happen as part of a 'larger plan'. In addition, if God allows free will, then God cannot truly know the future, because God does not already know which path you will take. And if he does know, then free will does not truly exist.

Is that too hard to grasp?
The problem is, you are looking outwards and expecting the bible to reveal itself to you. It doesnt work that way.
I've shown you He gives freewill, but you detest him so much to even try to understand.
As a human being, will you allow any of the softwares you created to go contrary to your command? The answer is No. But God as per God can tolerate that. Reason: He want you to be responsible for your actions. Why? because He loves you so much.
Havent you ever wondered why we are not the same?Yes you have. Isnt that the greatest proof of freewill. He can make us all to be totally good or evil, but he chose not to, because he want us to mould our future ourselves.
He's all-knowing because He knows what future your actions hold for you and not because he controls them.
And to your last sentence. That your father knows what action you will take does not deprive you of carrying it out. He terminates your freewill only if by a supernatural disturbance you are prevented from carryingout the act.