Junaidu Mohammed interviewed by Desmond Mgboh in Kano:
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Junaidu Mohammed, former
parliamentarian, Russian-trained
medical practitioner, leading critic on
national politics and National Chairman
of the Peoples Salvation Party (PSP), is
a man that loves confronting issues
passionately, frankly and decisively.
In this interview held in Kano, he
speaks on President Jonathan’s
outburst on being the most criticized
president in the world, Dr. Barth Nnaji’s
resignation, Chief Doyin Okupe’s failed
contract in Benue State, and the CBN’s
N5,000 note. He also speaks on big
men’s sons fingered in the fuel subsidy
racket, and Prof. Akinyemi’s call for
quota representation for non-indigenes
outside their states. Excerpts:
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Question:
Recently, President Goodluck
Jonathan said he’s the most
criticized president in the world
and hopes he will end up the most
loved president. Do you make of
that?
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Ans:
Frankly, if I had a say in drafting your
questions, I wouldn’t have asked you to
put this question to me. If you look at
the issues we are confronted with in
this country: issues of national security,
economic near meltdown, bungling of
economic policies, constitutional
amendment, the very nature of the
Nigerian State, the rights and
responsibilities of citizenship, the
dichotomy being introduced into
indigeneship and citizenship, and the
rights attached to it, I would have
thought there are more important
issues to worry about than the
perception of the president being
criticized and being loved somewhere
along the road.
As far as I am concerned, if you are in
politics, you are there to be criticized
because we are practicing democracy,
or at least, we imagine that we are
practicing democracy. And if you don’t
want to be criticized, then don’t come
into public life. If you are in politics, you
are there to be criticized, unless of
course, you want to be a dictator which
is a different thing entirely.
To me, it is utterly irrelevant what
Jonathan thinks about himself and how
he rates himself vis-a-vis other
presidents. I dare say that if he is
talking about other presidents, he must
be talking about democratically elected
presidents, people who came to power
by way of free, fair and credible
elections. I certainly do not believe he
came to power that way. I do not
believe his party is a democratic party.
For him, looking at a crystal ball and
saying he is going to be the most loved
president in Nigeria, well, we will wait
and see. For all I care, whether he is
loved or hated, Nigerians are going to
assess him on the basis of policies he
put in place. And secondly, on the kind
of personnel he brings to government
and how they performed. So, the
thrash of being loved or hated is
immaterial, it is his policies that will
carry him through history.
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Question:
But, do you think some of the
criticisms are valid or are mere
hangovers of a hate mindset?
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Ans:
Well, you have to tell me the criticisms
and state the specific policies for me to
be able to respond.
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Question:
For instance, he has been criticized
over the economy and the security
challenges, but he is saying some
of these problems did not start
with his presidency?
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Ans:
How long have you been living in Kano?
I hope long enough to know the
difference between the Kano of when
you were growing up and the Kano of
today. You cannot tell me that the Kano
of those days and today are the same
experience.
Number two, the sense of belonging of
the average Nigerian cannot be said to
be the same, particularly from the time
he became president of Nigeria. In my
entire life, for instance, I have never
seen or heard a man come out openly
to abuse other Nigerians on the pages
of newspapers the way Edward Clark
does with ease, the way so many other
people from the so-called South-South
do? If that is not different to you, then
it is different to me. I know that
Nigerians do have their own
stereotypes; they describe other
Nigerians in pejorative terms. But I have never seen it done openly,
systematically like it is being done now
by individuals close to the president.
And if that is not an unhealthy
development, then I don’t know what
is. And it started squarely, squarely I
repeat, with President Jonathan.
Secondly, Nigeria, like any other
country, has gone through economic
hard times. But whenever the country
was in trouble, the government takes
the trouble to explain to the people,
rightly or wrongly, but they did at least
make efforts to explain to the people.
They will not put forward a very flippant
Governor of the Central Bank, who has
assumed the role of economic
spokesman of the government, to start
insulting people. When the people say
there is something they don’t like
about an economic policy, this boy says
it is irreversible. There is nothing in a
democracy that allows for this kind of
foul response from an appointed
person, who has never won an election
and will never win an election. This is
the kind of boys put forward as spin
doctors and spokespersons for
economic policy, which clearly is not
working.
Now, if this is the kind of thing you
think is good and for which we must
praise Goodluck Jonathan, then tough
luck. You can assume, for example, and
you can say rightly that he did not
appoint Lamido Sanusi as Governor of
the Central Bank. I will agree with you.
But today, he is the President of Nigeria
and the Governor holds his position at
the pleasure of the President of Nigeria
– he can sack the Governor of the
Central Bank tomorrow and can
dissolve the Board of the Central Bank
and get rid of the Governor and the
Deputy Governors.
I believe what the Senate intended to
do to tame this arrogant man by
amending the Central Bank’s decree
was childish and it is a way of
personalizing lawmaking. You do not
make laws for an individual; you make
laws for the entire country. If they really
wanted, they should first pass a vote of
no confidence on the Governor and
then insists within their own party or
within the National Assembly that he
must be sacked. They did not do that.
They kept quiet for whatever reasons
and now we are stuck with it.
The President’s wife is sick, but there is
total silence about it. History is
replaying itself somehow. Jonathan’s
group, which sought openness in the
handling of the late President
Yar‘Adua’s health, is not providing
information on Dame Patience’s health.
A system is a system. And if you want
to make amendment or anything,
please go to the system. When Turai
was playing Russian Roulette with the
destiny of 150 million Nigerians, many
of us said the woman was not elected.
People who have not gone through the
crucible of election and winning have
no business determining the fate of a
country, or our destiny.
The idea of a so-called First Lady is not
even in our constitution. It is easy for
any charge and bail lawyer to take this
matter to court and establish that the
idea of First Lady is not in our
constitution and is therefore,
unconstitutional. How do you allow
women who have not won election –
many of them do not even have the
characters you can look up to as role
models – how can these women who
accidentally married their husbands,
not knowing what destiny had in stock,
simply emerge and assume certain
powers, and these powers are to the
detriment of the entire country? The
idea of the so-called First Lady should
be quashed and no budgetary
allocation should be allowed, because
when you appoint somebody to spend
money, which has been appropriated
by the National Assembly, by definition,
you are holding him accountable
because the National Assembly can
always call and question him.
The way we have it the money we have
for the First Lady is appropriated under
the budget of the Presidency and the
President now decides to allocate
billions of naira to the First Lady and
she has the freedom to spend it the
way she likes. That, to me, is not a
democracy.
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Question:
Are you saying she is not a national
asset and we should not bother
ourselves with her health
conditions?
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Ans:
No, no! That is wrong. She is a Nigerian
and a citizen. In a country that is
running a proper democracy, what
affects the mood, the lifestyle, and
comportment and composure of the
president should be of consequence to
all of us. But to now spend valuable
time, valuable treasure and even
valuable pages of newspapers and
radio time discussing the health of one
woman out of a country of about 75
million women is to me, perverse,
irresponsible to the extreme and shows
that Nigeria doesn’t have priorities as a
nation.
I certainly want to see the First Lady in
good health. And I think, basically, she
is not as offensive in nature as Turai,
for example. I find her rather easy-
going, pleasurable and full of humour.
But please, we must learn to
differentiate what I called the affairs of
state and affairs of whoever is
president. This woman is the
responsibility of the president as a
family man. If today he decides to sack
her as his wife or not, that is purely his
business.
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Question:
Former Minister of Power, Dr. Barth
Nnaji, has resigned, but the
suggestion is that he was doing
something good in the ministry.
But if he was doing something
good, why quickly accept his
resignation?
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Ans:
Well, I am glad you have touched on an
interesting aspect of mis governance in
Nigeria. For example, as a matter of
courtesy, it is not a legal matter; it is a
matter of courtesy. Once you appoint a
person, as the president you do not
accept his resignation or dictate his
resignation readily. You must go
through the facts and must be
convinced that there is something that
warrants the person resigning, and
warrants you to accept his resignation;
because it is one thing for you to resign
and another for your resignation to be
accepted. You have power to refuse to
accept the resignation.
Number two, in making certain critical
appointments, you first put merit on
top and then anything is secondary,
whether you call it Federal Character or
loyalty or a sense of appreciation
towards a governor or somebody else.
Now, I don’t know this Barth Nnaji. All I can say is that given what I know about
my own power situation here in Kano, I am not appreciative of his performance
as Minister. Whether he speaks
grammar, whether he is a better
engineer in terms of power generation
and distribution than any individual, I don’t care.
What I know is that I have not seen the
improvement I had expected; given the
amount of money spent in the sector
from the time General Obasanjo started
lying that he would give us reliable
power in six months to the present
day. Of course, during the rainy
season, there was some kind of
improvement largely because the Niger
Dam had enough water to move the
turbines and therefore, generate
certain optimal level of power. But
beyond that, there is nothing to explain
what this man has done. I heard he
likes publicity and likes coming on
television to talk. But I have seen no
improvement.
That is beside the point anyway.
Having determined that he was good
enough to be appointed minister, when
it comes to sacking him, we have to be
sensitive to certain basic requirements.
Has he done anything to warrant being
sacked? Was he actually pushed or did
he jump? The sources I have at my
disposal actually told me he did not
jump, he was actually pushed. He was
asked to submit his resignation letter.
And the question is, what did he do to
warrant that kind of shabby treatment?
Nigerians don’t have a reputation of
resigning from their jobs. It must be a
sack.
Now, if it was a sack, what did he do? If
it was a sack, he must have done
something criminal, because we know
how the power sector is being parceled
out to Generals. Companies in which
Obasanjo has interest, Abdulsalami
Abubakar has interest, other Generals
have made biddings for some of the
portions of power, which is being
unbundled and taking off. If this man
has been fingered, then you take him
to court rather than ask him to resign.
.
Question:
The CBN had proposed a N5,000
note. What is your reaction to this
proposal?
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Ans:
I have not seen any reason why the
Governor of the Central Bank wants to
introduce this denomination of the
Naira. Let me tell you, my
understanding is that economics is a
highly speculative science and people
who think if they are dealing with
economics they are dealing with a
reality, which is immutable and cannot
be changed, are talking nonsense. We
are not talking about religion. We are
talking about a science that is on the
border line between science and arts.
Those who believe we need a N5000
denomination should tell us why we
need it. They should tell us examples
and areas where this had been done
and what the benefits were. If, for
whatever reason, the millionaires in
government and those on appointment
like the Central Bank Governor, find
themselves in a situation whereby they
think it is too clumsy to hold a 50, 100,
500, 1000 Naira notes for easy
transactions, they should please leave
the country or stop dealing in Naira,
and use the dollars they have been
using anyway! I have been to parties in
Lagos where people holding
government positions spread dollar
bills on the faces of people dancing.
And I know for a fact that this boy in
the CBN boasts to his friends that when
he likes, he does his transactions in
dollars! And there are many other
Nigerians so privileged to do so. But if
the average Nigerian feels the N5000
note is a bad idea, in a democracy, he
should listen and their wishes should
be respected. And if their leaders – and
I have seen quite a lot of people I cannot write off easily, people like
Tinubu and others, who are leaders of
thought in their own respective areas,
political leaders, and those who have
been in government on both sides –
legislative and executive – saying this
is a bad idea, that it is insensitive, then
I think it will be reckless to allow a
person (CBN Governor), who was never
elected and has never won an election
even when he was in school, to say
there is no going back.
And for the president to copycat that
kind of statement is utter recklessness.
You cannot run a democracy and
pretend to be undemocratic. You either
are a democrat or you are not. The way
this government is trying to ram the
N5000 note idea through our throats,
and yet they are not giving the people
any coherent example, rather they are
only saying there is no going back, is in
my view, insulting, and speaks volume
of the kind of characters we are either
appointing or electing into positions of
trust in Nigeria. And this is a tragedy.
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Question:
But this same Governor of the
Central Bank had in the past
enjoyed your positive commentary.
Where did things start getting bad?
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Ans:
Never! I have never said anything
positive about him. Go and bring your
notebooks and your tapes. The last
time you spoke about his appointment,
I said Yar’Adua was misadvised and
mis-guided. And I am sure Yar’Adua,
not being an economist, and certainly
not knowing anything about the
responsibilities of a Central Bank
Governor, and also being a very bad
judge of character was misadvised and
should never have appointed this boy.
However, having done so, all of us will
live to regret the consequences.
I said that first he does not understand
the limit of his responsibility as a
Central Bank Governor and I also told
you that – if I remember correctly – you
will require certain character profile to
be a Central Bank Governor. This boy
talks too much, he is in love with his
voice and he hungers for publicity. That
has been his life. For all I care, this boy
was not fit, does not have the basic
requirements to be governor of Central
Bank of Nigeria. And by talking too
much, he is rubbishing the institution
of the Central Bank and I said no
Governor of the Central Bank talks as
much as he does.
And I gave example of the Chairman of
the Federal Reserve Board in the United
States, Professor Ben Benanki, and
King, who was the Governor of the
Bank of England, which is an
institution, and I said if we are building
an institution, we should never have
appointed people with this character. I have said this boy is not good and I challenge you to bring a single
sentence where I said this boy was
good.
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Interviewer:
Okay, let us leave Sanusi out of
this and go to other questions…
.
Ans:
(Cuts in) It is not a question of Sanusi.
It is a question of his policy. Why must
you impose a certain denomination of
your currency when a vast majority of
the people is opposed to it? It is not an
issue of Sanusi. I don’t bloody care
about Sanusi Lamido.
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Question:
The subsidy probe has led to the
prosecution of children and
relatives of those in power. How do
we look at the fact that some of
them may have used their positions
to get their children to steal us dry?
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Ans:
My dear Desmond let us stop deceiving
ourselves. It is not their children; it is
they, themselves, using their own
children in very reckless manner as
decoys, as fronts or as cut-out in these
deals to steal us dry. Who is Bamanga
Tukur’s son to go and dictate to either
the Department of Petroleum
Resources (DPR) or to the Minister of
Petroleum, or to some of these people
in the Presidency, because some of the
decisions on the petroleum subsidy
issue could not have been taken by the
Minister? They had to be approved by
the very top.
So, you might ask: who are these
small, small boys? What have they
done in their lives to get these
privileges? You are about their age,
why aren’t you getting the same kind
of privileges? If those in government
are liars, must we follow their lies? You
know very well that it is Ahmadu Ali
himself, Bamanga Tukur himself who
are involved in all these dirty deals.
But here, let us get at the real issue.
When some of us raised the alarm that
the whole idea of subsidy is nothing
but a bunch of lies and that there was
nothing like subsidy, the Governor of
Central Bank and other people not only
said there was subsidy, but gave us
the amount of subsidy they were
spending. Now, they are quiet! Where
are they now? Let them come and tell
us who was getting the subsidy fund.
You create a system that allows people
to become filthy rich for themselves,
their children,grandchildren and great
grandchildren. And now you say this
system is only good because it is giving
us an opportunity to be a welfare state
or to expand the benefits of the oil
revenue across the board, blabla bla!
Now, the whole thing has proved to be
a huge lie.
Minister of petroleum lied, Governor of
Central Bank lied, resign? If you now go
into the issue of printing the Naira, let
me tell you, you will find there is a
vested interest at work, either that of
the Governor of the Central Bank, or
somebody in the Presidency or
somebody close to the Presidency or a
big wig in the PDP. That is how the PDP
runs itself.
Back to the question, don’t deceive
yourself that these small boys, who
came out of nowhere are going
nowhere, as far as their individual
achievements are concerned. When
you want to address the whole issue,
you should go and confront Ahmadu
Ali, former chairman of the PDP now
aspiring to be chairman of BOT go and
attack the current Chairman of the PDP,
Bamanga Tukur, and others like him. I know of a state nearby where one of
Bamanga Tukur’s children went and
got a contract, and when they were
threatening to determine the contract,
he started boasting that he was going
to raise hell.
It is a PDP state and they went ahead
to determine the contract and there
was nothing the boy could do. But we
are aware of efforts by Bamanga Tukur
to undermine the governor, even
though he could not succeed because
the governor is independently powerful
in his own right and has a base unlike
Bamanga Tukur. Let us stop deceiving
ourselves. These boys are running
errands for their fathers and they are
making money for their fathers. For all I care, if you are prosecuting a small
boy, who cannot differentiate between
his left and right, you are wasting your
time.
If you want to prosecute, you go for the
big guns and those of them involved in
it should not only be prosecuted, they
should leave the public positions they
are holding. Ahmadu Ali’s son is one of
the chairmen of a federal board or so.
He should be asked to resign. If
Ahmadu Ali is holding any position, he
should be asked to resign. Bamanga
Tukur too should go, I know their
moves to get rid of him anyway, but
that is not my point here. What I am
saying is that he should be made to
answer for his own indiscretion.
.
Question:
What is your response to the
allegations against Chief Doyin
Okupe, and the argument that he
lacked the moral basis to hold
public office because he failed to
execute a particular contract in
Benue State years ago?
.
Ans:
It is very interesting. I knew of a time
when Obasanjo wanted to physically
assault him in the Presidency and there
was a time in my presence, when Chief
Okupe was being warned by the
National Security Adviser, General
Abdullahi Mohammed, that if he was
not careful, he was not only going to
get him sacked, but was going to jail
him. He had described him in very
tough words.
And if you know General Abdullahi
Mohammed, he is very soft-spoken, a
gentleman of very few words. For
Okupe to really get him so enraged to
respond in such a manner, it must
have been a very serious offence. I was
not surprised when some months after,
Okupe was publicly sacked.
Addressing the question, this again is
the issue of Nigeria and the PDP. There
is no morality in their understanding of
statecraft. Their philosophy is “never
get caught”. Once you don’t get
caught, there is no problem. That is the
end of the story. If Okupe had kept his
bloody mouth shut, perhaps, he would
have gotten away with what he did.
And many people perhaps, would have
forgotten about it. This is one of those
things you forget, like bad debts in the
bank, under the PDP.
But Okupe found new confidence in his
new role as a hired ‘attack dog” of the
Presidency and the man who facilitated
his getting that job was Reuben Abati.
Reuben was never in the public life, he
has never won an election and so he
misadvised the president on that. But if
the president was serious, it would
have been difficult for peope like Reuben to
mislead him.
And having misled him, and they were
found out, Reuben should have thrown
him out of the window with Doyin. But
typical of the PDP, nothing is going to
happen. Okupe will not be punished
and that money will never be recovered
and the people of Benue will suffer the
loss.
Another interesting development is
that the governor, who gave Okupe the
contract, was then in the PDP and was
a sitting governor of the party. Now,
that governor is with the ACN and he
now knows both sides of the equation.
And that is why, for the first time in
Okupe’s life, he is learning to keep
quiet because everybody knows his
background on this issue. But you did
not need the latest scandal in Benue.
There are, of course, other scandals
around that fellow. That such a fellow
has now gotten access to the president
and is still working in the Presidency is,
to me, the biggest disgrace in the way
we run government in this country.
Different nationalities in Nigeria are on
the march again for some form of self-
determination. The South-West wants
regionalism, and parliamentary system,
some Northern states like Kano have
coats of arm, in fact, are tracing and
warming up their family roots with
Niger Republic;
.
Question:
The Ogonis are seeking
self-determination just as Bakassi
people wants independence.
MOSSOP is making some noise,
though they are not yet ready for a
bloody noise. Where will all these
take us?
.
Ans:
These calls are not original. They are
not inherent in these people. They are
merely manifestations of a failed state
and Nigeria is definitely a failed state
under President Jonathan. What these
people are saying is that they have had a raw deal. I am not sure about the Yoruba demand for an Oduduwa
Republic, I don’t know. But others, yes,I have a feeling they have not been treated fairly by the Nigerian state. In a democracy, they have a right to agitate.
For all I care, when the states were
created in 1967, most of the states had their own coats of arm. I remember General T. Y. Danjuma, then Chief of Army Staff, speaking on behalf of the Supreme Military Council, who said all these things should be swept aside and the idea of any state having its own coat of arms was not ideal for federalism. Now, the issues are coming back to light because politicians are looking for issues to raise and then blackmail the Federal Government. If you want to resolve the issue of people feeling alienated, do them justice. As long as there are injustices, there will be this kind of demands. The Ogoni secession thing is like a suicide. I think if they are determined to commit suicide, good luck to them.
The MASSOB people are a little more
sensible, even though I don’t think
they have been fairly treated,
particularly by the police and the
security services. But for whatever
reason, I certainly will never support
the idea of somebody creating trouble
for other innocent people to die. The
Nigeria Civil War cost the Igbo at least
one million lives. I would hate to see a
single soul killed in the name of
agitation for either Oduduwa Republic
or another Ogoni Declaration. If they
play it on the pages of newspapers,
fine. It may be fun, it may be a joke.
But if they start taking arms and the
Nigeria state comes with the Federal
might to crush them, then they will
have themselves to blame.
And I have no doubt in my mind that
the one in the South West will remain
on the pages of newspapers. I don’t
believe the South-West people are
serious, because if they start trouble
and they have a head-on collision with
the Nigeria State, they have a lot at
stake because they are the most
developed part of Nigeria. Lagos itself is 40 per cent of the Nigerian economy, and our GDP. And if you want to really mess up Lagos, just bomb one interception of the Third Mainland Bridge and the whole economy of Lagos will come crashing. Secondly, the South West, especially the Lagos economy, is not a productive economy. It is an economy mostly based on currency speculation.
Compare Lagos with what is happening in the so-called Niger Delta, especially Rivers, which is the most developed,you can see clearly that these are the people bearing the brunt of the ecological problems and this are the people enjoying the money and making noise about it.
LINK:
www.sunnewsonline.com/new/politics/obj-lied-jonathan-sinned-and-sanusis-just-a-talkative-boy-junaid-mohammed/