There is no disputing the fact that whatever object or image people worship is an idol.

In the pre-islamic period there were so many idols in Mecca and Kaaba was the house or centre where these various idols were kept.

In Kaaba, the house of the idols was ''the black stone''. The black stone was the idol of the hanifans. If the hanifans truely believed in the true God, they would not have created an object of worship for themselves. What object of worship did Abraham create for himself and his family? Whose example did the hanifans copy?

When Muhammad was born his father had died. At a time in his life he had contact with a spirit who introduced himself to him as Gabriel and appointed him as Allah's messanger.

Muhammed started his job as Allah's messanger warning the people of the consequences of refusal to worship Allah alone. He was resisted by other idol worshipers who saw him as trying to impose his father's Allah on them. Remember Abdullah (Muhammad's father) means ''Servant of Allah'' Now Muhammed wanted to force all of them to abandone their various idol and worship his father's Allah alone.

When Muhammad succeeded in overcoming his enemies in war, he went to Kaaba where various idols were housed and destroyed them. But he did not destroy all the idols, he retained ''the black stone''. The black stone forms part of worship of Allah till today.

Those who go to Mecca for pligrimage go to Kaaba to kiss the black stone as part of their assignment in worshiping Allah. What does the kissing of an idol get to do with the worship of the true God?

This speak volumes about the Gabriel who was speaking to Muhammad. Could a true angel of God permit or authorize and incorporate an idol into the worship of the true God? Never.

Some muslims said the black stone is not an idol. If it is not an idol, why was it in the same house with many other idols in Kaaba? Do people worship God and idol in the same building? What do you call an object that people worship?

The source of Islam being as stated above accounts for the reason why it is violent, unforgiving and totally different from the gospel of Jesus.

A pure falsehood is easy to detect but if a little truth is mixed with it, there will be serious difficulty to detect. You can call Satan any name but not a fool. Satan is an expert in deception.

It is only a candidate of Hell that would see the truth and refuse to accept.

That is a perfect description of that religion. The problem is that these people know the facts but they are bent to follow satan. Instead of repenting they keep defending their religion with long and boring essay containing points not acceptable to spiritually intelligent people.

They face Kaaba the direction of the house of the black stone when praying to their Allah. Because that idol (the black stone) is limited in space, i.e not everywhere, they must face its direction before it can hear them.

Anyway we will keep telling them so that they will have no excuse in the Day of Judgement. If a watchman failed to blow the trumphet when danger is coming, the blood of the victims will be required from him. But if he blew the trumphet and the people failed to heed, their blood will be required from their own hand.

Where are the muslims in nairaland? No comment?

I once heard a muslim say ''but we curse satan and throw stone at him in Mecca''. This is very laughable. Satan has already been cursed by God, He knows that human cursing does not change anything and that is why he permits you to curse him. Throwing stones at him is absolute nonsense, meaningless as he is not stationary to be stoned every year.

The Qur'an permits you to curse and throw stones at satan to make you believe you are against him. Imagine if the Qur'an had said ''honour satan, praise him'', would everybody not have known he is in-charge?

Satan is businesslike, well focused and his ultimate goal is to carry, if possible the whole human race to hell fire with him. He knows your cursing him does not change his position. All he wants is to get you doing his biddings, knowingly or ignorantly.

Satan is a very wise spirit. So wise that he convinced and converted one-third of the angels in heaven to his side. These former angels are now called demons.

If he could convince angels, how much more man. It requires God's revelation for human beings to detect him. Praying for God's revelation to you.

^^^ the one who thinks he is free of satan may actually be the secured follower of satan.

Alhamdulillah, we curse satan daily. That tells everyone including the jinn, satan himself we are his enemies.

From the pages of the Bibles, satan took the son of man, Jesus through many things; including carrying him, etc as they say.

can anyone who says he follows the Biblical Jesus not expect that satan is carrying him/her? If they think they are immune, then they are already taken.
You can't be more secure than you master in the Bibles. If he was carried, you must have been roped in.


I will now respond to some of the proposals above.

Sweetnecta: ^^^ the one who thinks he is free of satan may actually be the secured follower of satan.

Alhamdulillah, we curse satan daily. That tells everyone including the jinn, satan himself we are his enemies.

From the pages of the Bibles, satan took the son of man, Jesus through many things; including carrying him, etc as they say.

can anyone who says he follows the Biblical Jesus not expect that satan is carrying him/her? If they think they are immune, then they are already taken.
You can't be more secure than you master in the Bibles. If he was carried, you must have been roped in.


I will now respond to some of the proposals above.

You people surprise me a lot. Did you read the thread at all? You decided to say irrelevancies as usual because that is what you people do whenever you don't have defence.

How did your response address the facts that idolatery is incorporated into Islam making the religion idol worshiping?

You are expected to address the issue raised and stop talking about something else. This thread is already in google and what you say will go a long way in portraying Islam even to the whole Islamic world. So mind what you say. Search 'what hanifans worship'

This Jesus you talk carelessly about is what your Qur'an call 'faultless (Qur'an 19:19). This means even Satan cannot dispute the integrity of Jesus.

Qur'an 3:45 says Jesus is illustrious in the world and the Hereafter AND ONE OF THOSE BROUGHT NEAR UNTO ALLAH. Therefore any muslim who abuses Jesus does not know the Qur'an.

@Nextpart:

by nextpart(m): 12:04pm On Oct 16
There is no disputing the fact that whatever object or image people worship is an idol.

like the cross, i imagine.

In the pre-islamic period there were so many idols in Mecca and Kaaba was the house or centre where these various idols were kept.

this is quite true except Kaaba was not built to house idols. but later generations of people brought idols to it being their 'known' first "center". Do you now that the first idol was brought to it by an arab who became an idol worshiper based on his interaction with the hindus in India?

In Kaaba, the house of the idols was ''the black stone''.

black stone is just a stone on the wall of the Kaaba. your statement is incorrect about the black stone being the house of the idols.

The black stone was the idol of the hanifans.

there is no evidence to what you say here, because the hanifans are those people who do not add any god with God, radical monotheism, i will say. Abraham the father of "faith" was a hanifan. The jews claim that they follow his faith. so do the chrstians. so do the muslims. unless you say the jews and the christians are idol worshipers, is what you are saying when they say the follow Abraham the hanifan who you are saying is an idolator?

If the hanifans truely believed in the true God, they would not have created an object of worship for themselves.

you will have to provide evidences here.

What object of worship did Abraham create for himself and his family? Whose example did the hanifans copy?

you will rope yourself tightly the way you are going.

When Muhammad was born his father had died. At a time in his life he had contact with a spirit who introduced himself to him as Gabriel and appointed him as Allah's messanger.

Gabriel had no authority to "appoint" but convey Message of his Lord to whoever he has been commanded to convey the Message to.

Muhammed started his job as Allah's messanger warning the people of the consequences of refusal to worship Allah alone. He was resisted by other idol worshipers who saw him as trying to impose his father's Allah on them.

what is bad is that your prejudice has blinded you. "His father's Allah" and before that you said the "other idol worshipers"? what are you insinuating here: that Muhammad [sa] was an idolater and Allah is idol he wished them worship? Do you know that every society, culture and language knows that there is The Everliving Creator and this Creator has a Proper Name? The yorubas call this Ultimate Creator Oluwa, Olorun [because they know He is not on earth, but much much far above it, like heaven [though He is Above All Heavens], Eleda as Creator of man, Eledumare because no one can know His Complete Essence. I dont know your native tongue the igbos call This Creator Chineke and other Names. The Hausa calls Him Obanjigi {i hope the spelling is correct and my apologies to the other 200 plus tribes i do not mention]. What do your people The Creator, The One you say as a christian sent Jesus son of Mary to the whole world, though Jesus said he was sent to the "lost sheep" of the house of Israel?

Remember Abdullah (Muhammad's father) means ''Servant of Allah'' Now Muhammed wanted to force all of them to abandone their various idol and worship his father's Allah alone.

There is a difference between slave of Allah and worshiper of Allah. Slave of Allah [Abdullah] is all humans whether worshiper or not. Worshiper of Allah [Ibadullah] is those who obey Him as commanded, because true obedience is worship. You have not heard of Ibadullah before I am sure. "Ibad, Ibada [act of worship], ibadu, . . ." are different from just slave of Allah. Not every slave of Allah is worshiper of Allah. But every worshiper of Allah is a slave of Allah.

When Muhammad succeeded in overcoming his enemies in war, he went to Kaaba where various idols were housed and destroyed them. But he did not destroy all the idols, he retained ''the black stone''. The black stone forms part of worship of Allah till today.

the "war" that Muhammad overcame his enemy in the victory of Makka is actually a battle-less war, which no blood of any enemy was shed. Allah promised that the victory will come and I am not surprise that the hearts of the enemies were made to tremble, hence they did not lineup for battle in this war, that at the end what was destroyed were "idols". "The Black Stone" is just a stone not bigger than a brick or cement block. How is this solid thing on the wall of a building is itself an idol or housing idols?

Those who go to Mecca for pligrimage go to Kaaba to kiss the black stone as part of their assignment in worshiping Allah. What does the kissing of an idol get to do with the worship of the true God?

it is not a must that the black stone must be kissed and no one thinks of it or even the whole Kaaba except what they represent; direction of prayer because Allah commanded the Kaaba as the direction [point]. There are others including the starting point of the required going around of the cubic building known as kaaba.

This speak volumes about the Gabriel who was speaking to Muhammad. Could a true angel of God permit or authorize and incorporate an idol into the worship of the true God? Never.

Is the black stone which is part of one wall of a building that even its roof people stand on the idol, when the whole building [Kaaba] is not an idol? Could you tell me what is so special about what Muslims do with the black stone that it became idols of the muslims, in your own mind? If its the kissing, then we will say everything you kiss is worshiped by you.

Interestingly, in Islam all acts of worship is forbidden except what Allah permits; so when Angels were commanded to prostrate to Adam [as], when Israel and his family prostrated to Joseph, those who prostrated were worshiping who the prostrated to or the angels were obeying the Commandment of Allah, Allah made the dream of Joseph a true dream? I am not going to let you comment on satan telling Jesus of the bibles to worship him and Jesus your God worshiping my God all night.

Some muslims said the black stone is not an idol. If it is not an idol, why was it in the same house with many other idols in Kaaba? Do people worship God and idol in the same building? What do you call an object that people worship?

a window of a house, a protruding block/brick, on the wall is permanent part of the house. you can remove the furniture and you will still have a complete house. but if you remove the window or the protruding brick, you will have an incomplete house. The presence of the black stone on the Kaaba is like the presence of the window or protruding brick on the complete house/building. The idols were like the furniture[s]; bad furniture[s].

By the way apollo theater in harlem usa has a stump that the performers rub their hand on before getting on stage. If you ask the people who rub their hands on it they will not say they are worshiping it, but because they are instructed to do so by the Apollo management.

Muslims do not worship anything you can see or seen or even unseen, but worship the Lord, Creator of all of them, based on what He says we should do as means of worshiping Him.

The source of Islam being as stated above accounts for the reason why it is violent, unforgiving and totally different from the gospel of Jesus.

i wonder how you made such a leap of faith to arrive at this about Muslims, rather Islam, especially when there is no "gospel of Jesus"?

A pure falsehood is easy to detect but if a little truth is mixed with it, there will be serious difficulty to detect. You can call Satan any name but not a fool. Satan is an expert in deception.[/uote]you just described corrupted Bibles; okay your NT.


[quote]It is only a candidate of Hell that would see the truth and refuse to accept.

the jews often say, if jews go to hell as the christians say, Jesus is a jew. . . I as a muslim say, if muslims go to hell as you are saying, the religion of Jesus is Islam and we know he was not a christian and he worshiped a "Lord" his God in the same way i worship the same God.

Your explanations as usual are not acceptable. They do not make spiritual sense. If the black stone is as small as a brick block and built into the wall of Kaaba, why is it particularly recorgnized differently from other blocks? It means it was built-in there for a purpose. Why was a 'black' stone built among brick blocks?

It shows Kaaba was purposely built with idol worshiping in mind as the black stone was a part of the building. About 360 other idols came in later because the building was made for idol worshiping.

When kissing the black stone they wear special type of garment (like in cult) with their heads cleanly shaven and move round the Kaaba building where the black stone is. What do you call that? Worshiping God?

An idol needs not be big like a whole house, it could even be smaller than a brick block. Here I rest my case.

@Truthman2012:

by truthman2012: 7:46am
Your explanations as usual are not acceptable. They do not make spiritual sense. If the black stone is as small as a brick block and built into the wall of Kaaba, why is it particularly recorgnized differently from other blocks?

The wall of the Kaaba is brown brick. Definitely "black stone" in a metal casing around it is going to be "particularly recognizable".

It means it was built-in there for a purpose. Why was a 'black' stone built among brick blocks?

You should have learned something about the black stone and Ibrahim and his son Ismail [as] before you started your post that is full of holes that i could drive big wheels truck through. We in Islam have our tradition based the tradition/action of Ibrahim [as]. He was the one who built the Kaaba in his time. The black stone was white as milk at the time it was used as the "CornerStone" of the building. Do you know what cornerstone is to a building? It is not always in a corner or underground or same size and not always like other "building blocks".


It is always a special piece of the whole place the role of a reference point to other parts. You didnt mention the station of Ibrahim and others, but the simple black stone. It was from Ibrahim [as] to us a reference point. If you kiss it, it is not a sin. If you dont, it is not a sin. Why do Muslims turn to the Kaaba when they pray, except that it is a command, then we have our reference point for convergence when we pray, so you dont have 2 mosque in adjacent streets facing different directions.


Yet f you dont know the direction must face, you can almost face anywhere you thing the Kaaba is to you. I guess we dont worship the Kaaba and I wonder how we can worship the stone on its facade? Islam is so radically iconoclastic that only disingenuous people can say we are idolaters and shield Judaism who made God their tribal possession and the christian who clearly have 3 person God along with cross on their neck as a burden, a hanging man painting on their windows. we already know about the hindus, etc and i dont have to remind anyone.

It shows Kaaba was purposely built with idol worshiping in mind as the black stone was a part of the building.

Was Ibrahim [as] an idolater? which idol did the destroyer of Idol worship? which idol did Muhammad the other destroyer of Idol like Ibrahim and then Musa who destroyed the golden calf yahweh? In the Quran we see that Ibrahim [as] with his son Ismail [as] built the Kaaba and pray to Allah in their dedicating it as a "House of worship" to Allah which became a place that even the children made pilgrimage to in the tradition of the call of Ibrahim calling mankind and charity begins at home the reason his descendants in % per group are the people with the highest percentage of pilgrims.


What idol did Ibrahim bring in to the Kaaba when he completed it? Please give us the details. I give you a year or a lifetime so that before you die you can tell us or you may just have to become muslim in the process of finding what you will never find.

When kissing the black stone they wear special type of garment (like in cult) with their heads cleanly shaven and move round the Kaaba building where the black stone is. What do you call that? Worshiping God?

Muslims are shrouded in the same type of clothing [seamless clothe], only 2 pieces and at most 3 to cover the head area. Everyone wearing the two clothes in hajj [women dont wear these 2 pieces but dress as they would in salah without burka or covering of face]. People die during hajj and those 2 seamless pieces are their shroud. Shaving of head is humbleness commanded. Muslim is never humiliated by God and we are not idolaters.

An idol needs not be big like a whole house, it could even be smaller than a brick block. Here I rest my case.

an idol does not even have to be physical. Your spouse can be an idol, if you abandon worship of God for this spouse. your children can also be the same, so is the angel, a true prophet of God can be made to an idol; worshiped. Let me help you out of poor concept: poor muslim worship Allah. because of poverty he may never make hajj/at Kaaba. are you saying worshiping the stone is an integral essence of Islam?


So a person who worships Allah from Ijero Ekiti, Nigeria who died without going to Makka to "kiss" the black stone, is not a true worshiper, according to you? No one attach importance to the black stone or kiss it with much more importance to it than just imitating the sunnah of the prophet [sa]. There are sunnah of the prophet that i have not followed. Not that I dislike it, but just do not know it.


It is a sunnah to eat "date" when breaking your fast. I know a guy who find dates something he cant stomach. He is not a muslim, according to you? If a muslim make hajj and dont kiss the black stone, are you saying his hajj is incomplete and or he is not a true worshiper of God Who is above Heavens?

truthman2012: That is a perfect description of that religion. The problem is that these people know the facts but they are bent to follow satan. Instead of repenting they keep defending their religion with long and boring essay containing points not acceptable to spiritually intelligent people.

They face Kaaba the direction of the house of the black stone when praying to their Allah. Because that idol (the black stone) is limited in space, i.e not everywhere, they must face its direction before it can hear them.

Anyway we will keep telling them so t72 odunfa street Lagos island Nigeria hat they will have no excuse in the Day of Judgement. If a watchman failed to blow the trumphet when danger is coming, the blood of the victims will be required from him. But if he blew the trumphet and the people failed to heed, their blood will be required from their own hand.

I don't have anything to say to than the fact that isl is the only religion acceptable in the sight of Allah and all the prophets Abraham Moses Jacob Jesus Noah John Muhammad teal were all Muslims but if u think Islam is not the way let us both reign on on our lives that many bad things should happen to the person telling lie about the true religion when u are ready reply me

THE BIBLE'S "BLACK STONE"

Genesis 28:18
The next morning Jacob got up very early. He took the stone he had rested his head against, and he set it upright as a memorial pillar. Then he poured olive oil over it.

Genesis 35:14
Jacob set up a stone pillar to mark the place where God had spoken to him. Then he poured wine over it as an offering to God and anointed the pillar with olive oil.


THE BIBLE'S "KA'BA"

Daniel 6:10
Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before.

Jonah 2: 4-7
“Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet ‘I will look again’ toward thy holy temple…When my soul fainted within me I remembered Yahweh; and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.”

2 Chronicles 6:18-21
18 “But will God really dwell on earth with humans? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built! 19 Yet, LORD my God, give attention to your servant’s prayer and his plea for mercy. Hear the cry and the prayer that your servant is praying in your presence. 20 May your eyes be open toward this temple day and night, this place of which you said you would put your Name there. May you hear the prayer your servant prays toward this place. 21 Hear the supplications of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place. Hear from heaven, your dwelling place; and when you hear, forgive.

1 Kings 8:27-29
27 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built! 28 Yet give attention to your servant’s prayer and his plea for mercy, LORD my God. Hear the cry and the prayer that your servant is praying in your presence this day. 29 May your eyes be open toward this temple night and day, this place of which you said, ‘My Name shall be there,’ so that you will hear the prayer your servant prays toward this place.

Isaiah 38:2
"Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the LORD".

1 Kings 8:44-45
"When you command your people to go into battle against their enemies and they pray to you, wherever they are, facing this city which you have chosen and this Temple which I have built for you, listen to their prayers. Hear them in heaven and give them victory".


please see also: "Pilgrimage of Ezekiel to Mecca"
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ezekiel_pilgrimage.htm

@LagosShia

Thanks for ur matured manner of presentation. I do appreciate it. But I want to state that those places you quoted in the Bible were personal inventions of the individuals concerned.

The practices were never copied by anyone thereafter neither were they made as parts of worship to God. That they did those things does not mean it was right and that was why nobody copied them. If there is anyone copying them or making any object of worship, such a person is not a follower of Jesus. We are not so taught by Jesus Christ.

A number of things were done wrongly in the Old Testament and that was why Jesus came for perfection. If everything was right Jesus would not have come. Those things include: marriage, revenge, love, gentleness, peacefulness etc.

But how do you feel about this - things were done wrongly for many generations and somebody who is universally accepted as faultless (Qur'an, Pickthall 19:19) came to correct the wrongs. So many years after another person came again to change the faultless arrangement on those vital areas of life i.e marriage, revenge, love, gentleness etc.

If the people actually deviated from or corrupted what the faultless man put on ground, it is the people that changed the arrangement or standard should not change because it is faultless.

Apart from the faultess arrangement, the faultless man also claimed that nobody can get to God but through him alone (John 14:6). I believe if he is truely faultless , his words should be trustworthy and taken seriously.

We have only one and just one life to live and we are our brothers' keepers.

truthman2012: @LagosShia

Thanks for ur matured manner of presentation. But I want to state that those places you quoted in the Bible were personal inventions of the individuals concerned.

The practices were never copied by anyone thereafter neither were they made as parts of worship to God.

Jews to this day face the "wailing wall" to pray and that site is connected to the temple.and if Jacob (as) could have annoited a stone,then what is wrong with kissing a stone which is believed to be the marking where God approved of for Him to be worshipped? As in you're talking here of great men of God in the bible.are you going to accuse them to of "idol worship"?

Did Jesus instruct us to face a particular direction when praying or did he tell us to make any object of worship like the people of the OT did? Only Jesus is our standard. He is the author and finisher of our faith.

You said the Jews are facing a particular direction till date. Is there no difference between Christianity and Judaism? Are all Jews christians? Are we supposed to reverse to the period of imperfection?

Truthman. All the d explanations been given here by d brothers are truly worth it but due to ur sturbborness (sorry for dat) won't allow u understand. Tell me where christianty is been mentioned in the bible, since u claim to be a christian and dat is wat Jesus told u to follow. Also I would like to know where Church is also mentioned since dat is ur place of worship. But the Prayers muslms do pray is been mentioned in ur Bible 56 times. And if truly u testify dat christianty is d one and only true religion, pls can u tell me one Prophet dat ur Bible mentioned whom is a christian? I have 40 proofs in the Bible that says Jesus (Isah) is a Muslim. The book of Mathew 15: 21. Jesus purified himself and he commanded others to do d same. Whosoever makes use of the two exhausts, should get them cleaned. Now tell which religion do practise dis act? Is it not the Muslims? Do Christians do what Bible just said? Okay The Prophet Jesus does so, and he commanded his followers to do d same. So this act dat Jesus did and commanded others to do, is it the act of the Muslims or the Christians? He did dat because he's a Muslims. Mr man, I have so many more, is just dat I know u won't believe or understand me due to selfish reasons.

truthman2012: Did Jesus instruct us to face a particular direction when praying or did he tell us to make any object of worship like the people of the OT did? Only Jesus is our standard. He is the author and finisher of our faith.

You said the Jews are facing a particular direction till date. Is there no difference between Christianity and Judaism? Are all Jews christians? Are we supposed to reverse to the period of imperfection?

Don't you believe the OT is inspired by the same "holy spirit" that inspired Jesus (as) himself? So is the OT wrong or a book of "idol worship"?

Simply because you find nothing about Jesus (as) facing a particular place while praying,doesn't mean he didn't do that.there's also nothing that says in the NT that Jesus (as) stopped jews from facing a direction of prayer.in fact Jesus (as) himself said we should obey the commandments/laws and that he came neither to destroy the law nor the prophets.

The point I am simply trying to make is that what you're calling "idol worship" because muslims do it and you didn't know its found in your bible is not idol worship at all.for something to be idol worship or polytheism,you must first acknowledge that thing as a divine being besides or alonside God.if you don't believe in that and you only believe in the only One True Almighty Unseen Creator who is God and nothing else then you're not polytheistic.its that simple.whatever definitions and interpretations you make out of people's actions may be true or false when the intentions of those people are taken into account.

Abujabir24: Truthman. All the d explanations been given here by d brothers are truly worth it but due to ur sturbborness (sorry for dat) won't allow u understand. Tell me where christianty is been mentioned in the bible, since u claim to be a christian and dat is wat Jesus told u to follow. Also I would like to know where Church is also mentioned since dat is ur place of worship. But the Prayers muslms do pray is been mentioned in ur Bible 56 times. And if truly u testify dat christianty is d one and only true religion, pls can u tell me one Prophet dat ur Bible mentioned whom is a christian? I have 40 proofs in the Bible that says Jesus (Isah) is a Muslim. The book of Mathew 15: 21. Jesus purified himself and he commanded others to do d same. Whosoever makes use of the two exhausts, should get them cleaned. Now tell which religion do practise dis act? Is it not the Muslims? Do Christians do what Bible just said? Okay The Prophet Jesus does so, and he commanded his followers to do d same. So this act dat Jesus did and commanded others to do, is it the act of the Muslims or the Christians? He did dat because he's a Muslims. Mr man, I have so many more, is just dat I know u won't believe or understand me due to selfish reasons.

There is nothing like that in Mathiew 15:21. Your quotation is wrong.

But if you are refering to Jesus watching the legs of the disciple, it is only a sign of humility and respect for one another. A servant is not greater than his master and that was why Peter first refused. Then it was not everybody washing his own legs as in islam, no washing of hands and nose and it was not done preparatory to prayer.

@TRuthman2012: It will disobedience to Jesus and the laws and the Prophets before him whom he sad he did not come to abolish their "presentations" or them that you now say OT should be dealt away with because many things were done wrong in there. Dont you know that Jesus knew those things and still told the disciples that they never should be abolished, but followed as he followed them?

If Jesus didnt teach you something like washing yourself in preparation for prayers, facing a direction in prayers, dont you then think that a man who came later to say that these things must be done was playing the role of the another comforter? After all he is tell you what Jesus said the disciples do not have faith enough to take.

I see that Lagosshia even gave you a link to show that Kaaba in Makka was a must visit place for the children of Israel and they only stop when idols was introduce into the place by idolaters.

You think Jesus was humble in washing somebody's feet? But imagine if Muhammad [sa] the person who washed even grandson's feet, you and others will allege some sickening reason behind it as if no one ever showed you love as a child making sure you were clean and know that you are loved enough that grandpa can kiss you.

You must realize that Jesus was not a christian and what you organize as how to pray is not from him and he bears no responsibility of what you made up and attach his name to it.


How do you know how to make compulsory prayers to God and i am not asking you about supplication as in petition or voluntary prayers? And in the Bible there is no faultless man after John because if you say dont abuse anybody because you will be punish for abusing anybody, why should you be the one that abuse somebody soon after that? And which faultless person talks arrogantly to his mother calling her "woman"?

If you wanna see which book defined Jesus as special, you have to go to the Quran where no sin is listed for him because he was kind to his mother. So was John.

Sweetnecta

It is now I know that you only defend islam in your own way, you don't believe your Quran. When your quran says Jesus is faultless, you are saying it is not true by accusing him of an offence. So you know better than the qur'an? Well done. You are a good muslim in deed.

@Truthman2012: Read what i said before you post about where you will find faultless Jesus.

You will not find faultless Jesus in the Bible unless you dont know what FAULTLESS means.

If anyone calls his mother 'woman' in the public, the people around will probably think he has no respect or regard of the mother. thats a fault.
If a school president says to the students okay, the teachers not to use the word "fool" because it is not come from a nice heart. But he turns around at some point and called somebody "fool" in hear shot of the teachers. what do you think the teachers will say about the niceness of the heart of the principal who is now violating his own moral?

You have the above in the Bibles about Jesus disrespecting his mother, his virgin mother Mary and Jesus calling somebody a fool.

The Bible also said he called a tribe similar to a "dog" while the jewish nations and tribes are the humans at the table. The Bibles are littered with verses that show Jesus not a faultless light so much so that the jews found faults in him, so much so that as "God, son of God, prophet of God [take your pick]", in all his prayers Yahweh did not protect him [maybe because of that lack of protection he cried out to Ellah twice complaining before giving up the ghost instead of Jehovah saving him.


It is in the Quran you will not find a weak God. It is in the Quran you will not find God hanging the mistake of father on children, but everyone bears his own deeds. It is in the Quran you will find God forgiving faults of even people who seek sincere repentance. It is in the Quran you do find faultless Zachariah, John his son, Jesus son of Mary, each a prophet of God for the children of Israel. It is in the Quran you find God overlooking the fault of Moses instead of running after his life in the Bibles.

So you have discovered many faults with Jesus even from the Bible. Therefore the quran is incorrect to call him 'faultless'. Thank you.

^^ You make no sense at all. I see that you are using THE QURAN to make a case for Jesus being faultless, when you cant find the same from THE GOSPELS. You should at least say from the jump start that you are getting GOOD information from THE QURAN when all else fail you. I agree with the Quran, while you are agreeing with THE QURAN with me, and rejecting the Bible in this case as I will provide evidence of his not not being faultless when you use good sense to read the Gospels.

Your bibles are corrupt and thats the reason Quran is correcting the corruptions.

When you guys Mary was a wife of Joseph, the Quran says she was has no relation with any man, not even a fiancee of old man Joseph.

it is from your corrupted bibles I was able to point out the corrupted opinions that normal minds see that you painted Jesus in. Though you become blind to it because you want to have somebody carry your keg of sins for you instead of you being responsible and mind your ways.

Quran paints Jesus and his mother as people who is protected from the influence of satan, while the bibles said he was carried away in temptation, and other temptations.

Quran says Jesus did not burden/troubled [jabaran] his mother, while the bibles he disappeared and arrogantly asked his mother as a lad that dont you know i will be in my father's house, as an adult called his mother, "woman" instead of mother.


It is the Quran that elevates Jesus son of Mary while the Bibles put him down so much so that one can say this man has no faith in God.

Sweetnecta

You believe what the Bible says about Jesus calling his mother 'woman'. The same Bible says Jesus is the Son of God, do you believe it? The same Bible says Jesus is the only way to God, do you believe it? The same Bible says Jesus is coming again to take us to Himself, do you believe it?

Keep following a prophet who his angel (Gabriel) said his fate and that of his followers is unknown. Keep following a religion that the faithful will pass through hell before some will be rescued, then you will know what staying in hell for a moment means.

Keep following a return to imperfection after Jesus has perfected human salvation.

@Truthman2012: You truly need a good education, ability to think through and coming to reasonable conclusion. I will do my bit on you this morning. I do not have authority over you agreement or disagreement on glaring reality. I can only put it in front of you so that you will have no defense.

? by truthman2012: 11:05pm On Oct 20
Sweetnecta

You believe what the Bible says about Jesus calling his mother 'woman'.

while i dont believe Jesus said that insulting expression to his mother, it is however in the Bibles where i read it. The reason I do not believe it is that no true prophet, in fact no good son will serious address his mother in such a disrespectful manner. Quran says Jesus was commanded to be kind and never to be a source of hardship, never to treat his mother harshly. I believe the Quran over the Bible. The Quran never says that i must believe in the Bible, while the Quran says I must believe what was revealed to Moses, David and Jesus {suhufi Ibrahim and Musa].

The same Bible says Jesus is the Son of God, do you believe it?

The bible parts I believe are because they agree with what Quran says: Jesus son of Mary [son of man says the Bible]. Jesus could not be son of God, because the evidences of that are his praying to God at the Gethsemane, his saying "your Lord is my Lord and He is One God", telling satan "thou shall not worship anyone but God [you truthman2012 worship Jesus, dont you see how disagree in reality with Jesus?]", and at the supposed hanging, Jesus was reported to have yelled "my God {Ellah while the jews in their rage said he said Elias]" twice without ever saying my father [aba] to show his father was letting him go through whatever he was reported to be going through.

The same Bible says Jesus is the only way to God, do you believe it?

no, because how did Jesus play the role of only way when he can only in the middle of the journey and never hang around to finish the leading which he said another comforter is the one that will lead us all to the straight and thorn free path? How did Jesus lead Adam [as], Eve, Abel, etc, Enoch and Noah and Abraham and Lot and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and Joseph and Moses and Aaron and Joshua and and and Samuel and Saul and David and Solomon and and and Zacharia and John to God when they were elects of God getting Information from to benefit man? You think it makes sense that man benefit from what these brought and they themselves didnt? You think everyone was in Hell until Jesus brought what he brought for people of the future? What about people of the past, even Abraham who was a Friend of God and Father of Faith? You think Yahweh will create Adam and throw him in hell not first showing him how to seek repentance so that he can receive SALVATION from Him? what kind of mean and unmerciful God you worship?

The same Bible says Jesus is coming again to take us to Himself, do you believe it?

the 12 disciples died waiting. The apostle Paul died never getting to that promised land that you want to be carried to. First the prophesy is not on you, but the 12 disciples of Jesus. Since it did not happened as expected, it is a failed prophesy and you know what they say about the prophet who says whatever that does not come true, about being "shall die" and "you shall not fear him". I say the Bibles lie on Jesus.

Of course I accept that he will return as part of the signs of end time approaching because of Quran saying so.

Keep following a prophet who his angel (Gabriel) said his fate and that of his followers is unknown.

then your arrogant mind has not allowed you to pick up The Quran and from it verse about paradise for Muslims. Are not one of those who say our paradise is glutenous? Why are bac tracking now? You think paradise is not paradise? Funny man, you.

Keep following a religion that the faithful will pass through hell before some will be rescued, then you will know what staying in hell for a moment means.

The Mercy of God covered Abraham in the fire of tyrannical king. The fire was made cool on him and for him, if was a means of safety. If muslims pass through hell as you suggest, may we not feel its punishment like if we are disbelievers. Amin. But we are not going into hell, but shall be made to pass over it so that we see what we are spared from. Allah is Merciful.

Keep following a return to imperfection after Jesus has perfected human salvation.

What is human salvation when you disobey Jesus you said is your leader? Disobeying God that Jesus worshiped is the absolute disobedience. I am with Jesus on worshiping his Lord Who is my Lord Who is One God.

Sweetnecta

You said you have to pass through hellfire for you to appreciate what you are spared from. For you to appreciate it you must taste the pain of hellfire.

Your quran did not specify how long it will take to pass thru it, how long can you afford to be in hellfire? Quran says some will be left while some will be rescued.

For some to be rescued from hell and some left there, it means you will all be in it first for an undisclosed period of time. Congratulations.

@Truthman2012:

by truthman2012: 5:10pm
Sweetnecta

You said you have to pass through hellfire for you to appreciate what you are spared from. For you to appreciate it you must taste the pain of hellfire.

why are you dishonest because I didnt say i will pass through hellfire, but you said I will and here is what you said in bold in the quote below and my response is what is not in bold in the quote

Keep following a religion that the faithful will pass through hell before some will be rescued, then you will know what staying in hell for a moment means.

The Mercy of God covered Abraham in the fire of tyrannical king. The fire was made cool on him and for him, if was a means of safety. If muslims pass through hell as you suggest, may we not feel its punishment like if we are disbelievers. Amin. But we are not going into hell, but shall be made to pass over it so that we see what we are spared from. Allah is Merciful.

Your quran did not specify how long it will take to pass thru it, how long can you afford to be in hellfire? Quran says some will be left while some will be rescued.

it says pass over it. you must have seen a pass over before?

And there is none of you except he will come to it. This is upon your Lord an inevitability decreed.

this is the verse you think says "into hell" whereas I say "over hell". The word used that you may need to research is WARIDDUHA to mean over it, a pathway over something. Inshallah I will not fall into it while some may just be brought into it without having the chance of the WARIDDUHA. The Power of Allah is Tremendous. Pharaoh and his army perish in the water which Moses and those with him pass through becoming solid walls which they passed between it to safety. I hope in the Mercy of Allah on myself and all sincere muslims. I hope you have the same confidence about your lords, otherwise, join me in Islam.

For some to be rescued from hell and some left there, it means you will all be in it first for an undisclosed period of time. Congratulations.

even if you say i remain in hell, it does not matter as long as my Lord does not punish me by it. My hope is different than yours.

Truthman2012,

you have really dealt with the case. Remember, Allah said in the Quran that, their hearts have been sealed, however you explain it, they will not heed.

However, I will just add these few comments.

1. Christians have the sickness of Interpreting names. Isa (Jesus) son of Mary was never called "JESUS" and was never called "CHRIST", it was translated. You don't have the right to translate people's name. Even "Christ" was just a title and was translated from "Messiah". Remember, some Languages pronounce "J" as "Y". Some of us that are followers of football will have seeing such names and we still manage to pronoun them correctly. What if on that day (day of reckoning), you call lord Jesus, and he never get to know you are calling him, because he wasn't aware of the name.

2. If then, that he was never called Christ when he was alive, he wont have known of Christianity. He was NOT a Christian and he was not aware of Christianity.
whats going to be your fate, if on the day, he denied you because he is unaware of this faith. Remember, He said not those that call me lord, lord will gain the kingdom of God but those who do the will of GOD. From Genesis to Revelation, there is nowhere Jesus said worship me, yet Christians are worshiping Christ.

3. Christians have suddenly turned to Israelite in spirit, because Jesus was never sent to any tribe except the lost sheep of the Israel.

4. can you analyze the Sign Jesus was talking about in this verses? Matt 12:39 But he answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: Matt 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Lets pick the phase "so will" into verse 40. i Guess what Jesus meant was that exactly [/b]as Jonah was in the belie of a fish so also he will be in the earth. Note that its not a miracle if Jonah was in the belie of a fish dead. It becomes miracle when he was in the belie [b]alive. so also if Jesus after crucifixion was buried dead, then it was not a miracle. It becomes a miracle if he was actually in the earth alive as Jonah was in the belie of a fish. So what happened to this prophecy. If we analyze further, the number of days and nights. The Reason for Good Friday is because that was the day Jesus was crucified for their redemption. So if he was buried on Friday Night, it means he spent only Friday and Saturday nights (2 nights) and Saturday day because he was seen alive on Sunday morning as against 3 days and 3 nights prophecized. No wonder Paul's emphasis in 1 Corinthians 15:12-19

5. The Comforter: Jesus said, if I don't leave, he wont come. The verses this was mentioned show that the person is a man. The word wasn't an English word, but as usual has been translated into different word across several versions of the bible. The Comforter CANNOT be holy ghost because holy ghost dwell with Christ when he was alive even before his birth, remember Jesus said "if I don't go, he won't come...". No wonder the Christians so called holy ghost has led them into different denominations and no new thing introduced in the last 2,013 years.

6. Finally, the leadership of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) has no equal. No wonder is was rated as the best leader by an American philosopher. Allah in the glorious book also mentioned that he is the best example for mankind if you are conscious of meeting your Lord on the day of Reckoning. Every manners, including worship and even way of life of Muslims are traced to him. No wonder, Noone before was given Certificate to Paradise while still alive except during the reign of Prophet Muhammad (SAW), when 12 of his Disciples were given the certificates while still alive (All glory is due to Him alive)
No Christian can boast that his way of worship can be traced to Jesus. Indeed, Holy Spirit(Lolz)

Fellow brethren, think. Its our joy that everyone enters into the Kingdom of God.

Allah said in Quran that "Die not except as a Muslim" and that "if you come with a religion other than ISLAM shall not be accepted and you will be among the lost" and Allah confirm that ISLAM has been the religion right from Adam, to Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. There is no distinction among them all, they are all Muslims.

Let us all swear that the wrath of Almighty GOD be on the liars.