http://odili.net/news/source/2008/feb/23/406.html

Former leader of the defunct secessionist Republic of Biafra, Chief Chukwuemeka Odumegwu-Ojukwu, in this interview with ADELANI ADEPEGBA, speaks on the furore over his pension, the crisis of confidence in the apex Igbo organisation, Ohanaeze Ndigbo, his assessment of President Umaru Yar’Adua and, Olusegun Obasanjo. How would you assess Nigeria’s democratic experience so far?
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Former Biafran warlord, Dim Odumegwu-Ojukwu
We haven’t had much. It’s very much in the realm of rhetoric. I think we are expecting a lot of em, You called it a democratic experience, which means I can think what I like. I can form or join any group I want, think of a group, organise it. It means that anything that has to be done, number would be counted and numbers will count. It’s quite a long way off, particularly at a time when in our minds, we still think very much of the last elections or attempt at elections; because I don’t think what happened them was anything to be called an election. It was quite a charade. Yet, because you asked the question, we mustn’t lose hope. We just started. We’ll see. I want to take this opportunity just to warn that we mustn’t expect too much from situations that were created directly from the previous government. What I mean by that is this: one, I don’t expect too much from the Yar’Adua government. I don’t expect much from Prof Iwu’s INEC (Independent National Electoral Commission. I don’t expect much from a PDP still headed by Obasanjo. I don’t expect much from men in positions who were themselves not products of democratic practice.

Comparing the last elections to the others in the past, was there any marked improvement?

No, it was worse than anything we had ever seen or imagined. We had always worked on the basis that we knew elections could be rigged, but we didn’t, at least I didn’t ever imagine that the entire election results would be faked and mandates would be stolen totally. I didn’t believe it was possible. Thanks to my good friend, Obasanjo, I have learnt that it is possible and therefore I am more wary this time and for the future.

Now, with the way the political system is operating, do you believe democracy has a future in this country?

Oh, democracy has a future everywhere, why not? It’s just that if it isn’t coming fast enough, you work harder, that’s all. But, certainly, it has a future. What is more, Nigerians actually are a people who innately exhibit democratic traits everywhere. Our culture is democratic. All the tribes, leaders, how they get there and how they discuss things and so on. We are by nature democratic. But our political leaders, not all of them, they need a lot of work and they haven’t done enough. That’s all.

Nigeria is ranked as one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in the world in spite of its growing foreign reserves. What are your misgivings about governance in the country and how can they be addressed?

That’s part of your democratic dividends. In Nigeria, we need for all Nigerians to count. We need also for those who are counted to count. I hope am clear, because if you say majority and it doesn’t mean anything, then they haven’t counted. Their numbers should count; they should be made to be important. They should get the government leaning to their wishes. I believe that in Nigeria, people are not accountable and anything can go wrong. What we’ve been hearing for these past months, nearly a year, is figures that are mind-boggling. You start to ask yourself how people manage to steal so much. When you reflect further, the problem is that administration is so porous, you can get away with so much without accounting for what has gone on. We have to tighten up our system of accountability. We must.

What’s your take on the departure of the Peoples Democratic Party from the vision of its founding fathers?

To start with, I don’t know about the PDP. I didn’t even know they have a vision. But if you say they have, I would not argue with you. What I would tell you is it is one of the worst things that has happened to Nigeria. The Obasanjo-led PDP is a nightmare, and I hope we would be able to come out of it properly still standing on two feet.

Do you think Obasanjo as a former president has the moral right to be the chairman of the PDP Board of Trustees?

He can always want anything. If you go to his house, he would be praying and expecting that he would go to paradise. That is a human attribute. I don’t judge, but my opinion is he might want anything, but he wouldn’t get it.

If you were in his position as a former president, would you want to retain the BOT chairmanship?

If I were 10-foot tall, would I get through this door? I don’t like hypothetical questions, because I can’t imagine myself in the position of Obasanjo (chuckles). I would never descend to such depths. I don’t know how his mind functions. All I know is that am witnessing a phenomenon, a man roundly hated by everybody wanting to continue to hold on. It has been said, and it is said with some justification, that it would seem that what is going on now is an Obasanjo third term, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s quite as bad as that.

Are you saying Yar’Adua cannot hold his own?

I would not be a headmaster. I have never met Yar’Adua, so how would I know? How can I judge him? Am hopeful; very much hopeful. But Yar’Adua, who is he? How did he get to the point where some people think he is president of Nigeria? I don’t know. It is in the context of my own belief that I look at things. I don’t expect much from him because he came rather fraudulently to (lead) Nigeria. I don’t expect too much from him.

Do you support the calls by civil society groups that Obasanjo should be tried for corruption?

Oh yes. The only problem is that, you know that I say it as it is. I had said it before and I would say it again and continue repeating it that Obasanjo should be dragged out and shot for the havoc he has wreaked on Nigeria.

What about other leaders who were also indicted for mismanaging public resources?

They should all be shot all the same.

How do you assess the electoral reform panel? Can it come out with solutions to , (cuts in)

I don’t think they can, because they come from a government that is illegitimate. I don’t think they can. They are badly chosen. It’s the same thing I hinted at when I said that somebody like Iwu’s Independent National Electoral Commission cannot be expected to run any other election. The only way to reform the system is to run transparent elections when the votes count. And that is why some of us are in the tribunal and in court. I hope the court would give the right judgment and nullify the elections and we start again.

Would you say the Igbo are being reintegrated into the country?

No, there is a lot to be done yet. When I say no, I thought whether we are already re-integrated. I think about it and what you’re saying is that we are being re-integrated. Yes, it is too slow. And no pace would be fast for me, because I wear the shoe and I know where it hurts.

One of your critics said you should have turned down the retirement benefits from the Federal Government , (cuts in)

Come off it. Are we on that still? The drivel that came from Achuzia? You might as well say that Igbo should not go back to Port Harcourt to collect their abandoned property. It’s the same thing. I do some work, I accumulate certain results and after so many years, finally am able to collect them, and you say I shouldn’t. When you come out, you shouldn’t accept your buildings too. It’s the same thing. I like the way you put your question; you said my critics. They would criticise anything. It is Achuzia, isn’t it? Who is he? Why should anybody listen to him? The fact is that it doesn’t affect him. He never fought in Nigeria. He was never a Nigerian Army officer, so he shouldn’t expect any pension from Nigeria Army. That’s all.

He was hinting that he fought along with you, but that you disappointed your officers by accepting the pension.

Yes. How many times has he rejected being called a colonel? That is a rank bestowed upon him in Biafra by me. He should reject it as well. The only rank he can claim in Nigeria is recruit, that’s all. He was never in the Nigerian army. He came into the Biafran Army as a militia.

What can you say about the leadership crisis in Ohanaeze? People say you have not taken the leadership roles expected of you in solving the problem within the organisation.

If I take it, am supposed to be clutching at leadership all the time.

How do you see the crisis in the organisation then?

Ohanaeze again is an organisation that is trying very hard to mobilise Ndigbo and protect them; protect their interest. It was formed in an ad hoc manner, and some Nigerians, particularly those who love the old politics of Nigeria and hanged on the Igbo man’s neck. I don’t know when I last attended an Ohanaeze meeting. I don’t know why anyone would expect me to do some wonders in a meeting that I hardly ever attend. I don’t attend because I don’t like the way they do things. I am certainly not a stalwart of Ohanaeze. I am an Igbo stalwart, yes, Ohanaeze, not quite. So, I wouldn’t really know what they are doing, but I have APGA. I know what to do with APGA. I have the Ibo Union; they know what to do. But when you talk about Ohanaeze, between you and I, I don’t know what is going on there. All I can tell you, I’m not very hopeful about Ohanaeze and I am certainly not one of those who pray for the day Ohanaeze would come into its own. I don’t think so, because I don’t think it can the way they are going about it.

Do you think Ohanaeze is still relevant to the future of Ndigbo?

Anything would always be relevant depending on the form it metamorphosed into. Ohanaeze can be very relevant if it mobilises Igbo opinion and stops reflecting the opinion of a group of elite. That is what I don’t take really. If it is fully democratic, of course, yes. Because we need democratic institutions and organisations that would mouth our grievances and enunciate our aspirations.

Why do the Igbo find it difficult to speak with one voice?

Oh, the reason is very simple. It’s the same reason the Yoruba find it difficult to speak with one voice politically. The Yoruba have never been able to speak with one voice politically, why must you insist that Igbo speak with one voice politically? When did you last see the Hausa speak with one voice? We all love the Americans. Now you’re hearing about their elections and all that. But when last did Americans speak with one voice or Britain for that matter? The point am making is that a people can speak predominantly with one voice, but never do a people speak with one voice. Whenever you see it, suspect it.

What solution would you proffer on the Niger Delta crisis?

There is a lot of room yet for dialogue. Once we embark on dialogue, intensify dialogue with the people there, we then follow on from the results that come out. But certainly, I don’t think shooting them is the answer. Locking up their leaders is not the answer either.

What is going on in your party, the All Progressives Grand Alliance, particularly the leadership?

There isn’t. I am the leader of APGA, and the chairman is Victor Umeh. If for some reasons you think some thing else, that’s your problem.

What would you like to be remembered for?

Outspokenness, truth and foresight.

http://odili.net/news/source/2008/feb/23/406.html