frosbel:

This is your doctrine, not the doctrine of Christ !!

There is sin in ignorance before one gets saved and there is willful sin done after the knowledge of salvation.

The emphasis here is on sin done in ignorance or in a state of unbelief.

What do you mean by that? if you say its not the doctrine of christ tell me where the bible said that if the adultrous woman has given birth to children she shouldnt leave the man. Frosbel u like being sentimental wherever bible appears hard but it doesnt change anything. Truth remains truth no matter how bitter it is for you to swallow. Sin done in ignorance will no more judged as ignorance when u become aware that it is sin and fail to do away with it. For example if somebody loots and gets saved wont he return the loot? Or Will he continue to enjoy the loot because he did it when he wasnt saved? If you say he should return the loot to the rightful owner( which of course is the right thing), why would the case of an adulterer be different in your eyes if not for sentiment. Anybody who is saved knows that there are prices you must pay having been enrolled into the body of christ which includes both the hard and the small restitutions.

anukulapo:

You know how e be now bro Goshen.

You are needed here www.nairaland.com/1152439/take-it-personal-give-et

Give your take on the thread above sir.

@frosbel--we no see you there either

I hope say "una no dey fear the topic"

I will attend to your thread NEXT as soon as possible. I promise you, okay.

@ Everyone,

We are beginning to analyze what kind of restitution to make and what not to make based on each one's situation all because we refuse to accept the NT kind or way of salvation as specified. There is no analysis in restitution - restitution is restitution. The Old testament salvation is based on works but it is not so in the NT. The NT salvation is without works, that is it doesn't require the fulfillment of the law to complete.

Under the law of Moses, it also forbid 'interest charge' to people unlike the case of Zacchaeus that said 'if' he had taken anything wrongfully from anyone, he will return 'four times' as much - he and whoever receives such 'four times as much' will also be breaking the law of not receiving interest. The words of Christ were not to justify Zacchaeus' words but the salvation Jesus pronounced was 'because he is of the seed of Abraham' - to benefit from the covenant promise and covenant.

I will come back to expand on this probably when I wake up but let's look at the NT kind of salvation that doesn't required us the obligations of the law whatsoever. Take a look:

Amplified Bible (AMP)
For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] - Ephesians 2:8-9

This is the simple definition of Salvation according to the NT - Saved by Grace through faith (in Christ Jesus) and it is the gift of God. Remember the law was given by Moses BUT GRACE and TRUTH came by JESUS CHRIST, John 1:17. Scripture says, salvation is the gift of God - Yet how often do Christians, even after they have been given the gift of salvation feel obligated to try to work their way to God. Our salvation and faith are gifts of God, we should respond with gratitude, praise and joy not by works, that is noy by fulfillment of the demands of the law of Moses.

Now, lemme leave everyone one of us with this question or puzzle if you like. When someone in our natural world gives you a gift, do you say, "That's a very beautiful and lovely gift - NOW, HOW MUCH DO I OWE YOU?"

wordthots: I have a sincere question to ask candour,frosbel,stryklimi n everyoda person who has placed a post on this thread.

what's the reason behind restitution?
Is it to justify us before God or to justify us before man?

I think the answer to ds question would point us in the right direction.

Nothing justifies you before the almighty God except the atoning blood of Christ.we are admonished to live peaceably with, not justify ourselves before men.

@ Candour I totally agree with u n bro Goshen. Salvation is a free gift, its not smthn u work for. Tryin to work ur way in just rubbishes the revelations given in the epistles. Salvation is a gift received by faith eph.2:8-9.

"For the gospel reveals how God puts people right with himself: it is through faith from beginning to the end" Romans1:17 (GNB)

We can't impress God by our works(its a total waste of time) our right standing before Him is in christ.roman 5:1-3
Christ sacrifice once and for all has reconciled us to God and gives us right standing before Him, nothing can be added to what Jesus did.

I'm still wondering the reason behind restitution. Cause I think its a law and paul tells us that tryn to justify urself by d law makes you fall from grace.

[/color][color=#990000] Dearly beloved in response to your questions:

3. We say the kingdom age is now and the body is the temple the sacrifices acceptable are our right doings towards each other and there is no need for the levites anymore remember my reference to hebrews as regarding the changing of the priesthood Aronic which would encompass the pharasees,saduccess and herodians and Nazaritic which would include Yashua and his desciples and John the baptist and his desciples.

All are now king prophets and priests as long as they live exactly as christ did. Note there is no physical temple in john's vision of the end in the book of revelations.1 chor 16:19-20 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit why then do our brethren worldwide seek for the holy spirit in a building like thier brethren befor yashuas revelation. Was the veil not ripped from top to bottom so all could see God face to face? this na place wey only the high pastor/priest fit enter normally,but at the cross all was revealed why then would one go back to this building made with hands (this is for our sunday going church brethren) what happens after that service is also very impoertant to your salvation

Hbr 10:16-17 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my (laws) into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more


Also we can quote the master as saying thus, sacrifice and offering thou did not want but a (body) has thou prepared for I.We all know in our subconciouse mind that the body is the true temple and our dealings with one another are the are acceptable and unacceptable sacrifices. Stop blaming one another blame is hatred.

6. Though I am not sabatarian I do observe the sabbath in faith as do millions of christians in the oriental orthodox church (Yashua observed the sabbath) more like do as I do . it was Rome that condemmed the sabbath upon pain of death (factual history) they shall not juedize worship him everyday and keep the sabbath holy also.

In his famous edict of 321 CE, Constantine declared, "On the Venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."

Think about this — a sun worshipper changed the day that our Father in heaven established in favor of a day that was being honored and observed to the sun. This edict undeniably verifies the paganism of Sunday worship. There is, again, not a single verse in the New Testament confirming that the day of worship changed from the seventh to the first-day of the week. This change was only through the pen of man, not through the inspiration of Almighty Yahweh, the one with whom we should be concerned.

At the Council of Laodicea in 325 CE, sixteen years after Constantine’s original edict, we find a second attempt to remove the Sabbath. In this decree the counsel of bishops declared, "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall by shut out from Christ."

Not only did the bishops state here that Sunday was to be observed in lieu of the seventh-day Sabbath, but we find that they also forbade Christians from Judaizing the Sabbath. This provides irrefutable evidence that for 300 years after the death of Yahshua there were still "Christians" observing the Biblical Sabbath. It also shows the desire of the church to move away from its Jewish or Hebraic heritage.

Qouiting yashua once again in john 4:22 this is between you and the farther you must at least try and live you life like a jew for christ was a jew, if you live like ijaw man you don miss am ooo!


4.I believe in Salvation by faith in christ and we all know christ obeyed the law to the letter, hence the reference to john 8 (none of the pharasees saducees and herodians could condemn him of sin for he had fufilled all that was required by law just like john the baptist,they were both of the same order, priesthood the order of melchizedek the Nazarite order, which is distinct from the Aronic order only with regards to the type of sacrifice offerd Nazaritic is self sacrifice while Aronic provides an option for a substitute look at the world today and tell me which order you visibly see then you can comprehend the scale of the problem.
A word of caution to our churchgoing brethren its what you do in the privacy of your soul that really matters this is the building not made with hands


5.My reference to the judgement of james in the Acts of apostles was purely to show that even the church elders could not choose and pick as you say they belived in the necessity of the law for reproof and instructions in rightousness and hoped that in time the gentiles would see the necessity as well and fufull all that was required. If I remember correctly your words inspired by the raouch qoudesh, holy spirit you said 'as the spirit leads'

Will the spirit lead one to diobidience or lawlessness? by qouting from the law to resolve the issue james and the elders at once showed thier respect for the commandments of the most high god not choosing or picking but through the inspiration of christ upholding the law and through faith in christ obtaining salvation,doing Christlike works no gossip, anger,malice,sadness,unfruitfull lusts.

Daily dying to somthing contrary to the spirit and through that longsuffering obtaining the promise. (no be step by step my brother?)


7.Worship the farther in spirit (faith) and truth (law bible) can you have one and leave the other I think not. the abscence of law means there is no sin and the last I checked the world was rolling in sin.

debosky
Who said you should die please ooo! and why do you have to prove anything at all, all we are saying is that you live like christ. If you do the children of lucifer will try and take your life as they did to him and all his desciples after him all but john at patmos

you are not aware that the christlike one is always under the danger of losing his life just because of the light he reveals and the truth he speaks, for men so loved the darkness. but if being a true son then no one can curse you or take your life except the farther allows it.

would you conciuosly endanger your life for the truth say for instances speaking against homosexual marriage or openly accusing politicians of thievery. are you not aware there are people on this earth under incarceration and different types of suffering for having strong views in opposition of such living.

striktlymi:
Good evening Mr. Debosky,

You are right that it is my opinion that there is restitution for every sin just like it is your opinion that it is not so.

Like I mentioned in my first post, restitution is really not understood by some of us. In the case of the repentant thief, what we should understand is that the thief made restitution for what he did. Recall that God looks at the heart of every individual and from my first post, restitution is part of the process of repentance. The thief had perfect contrition for the sins he committed and he ACCEPTED totally without complaint the punishment he was made to face. This was his restitution.

Apologies if this offends you, but this is complete nonsense. Getting punished for doing something wrong is NOT restitution, that is why it is called a different name - PUNISHMENT.

In case you're confused, I'll repost the definition of restitution here.

1. The act of restoring to the rightful owner something that has been taken away, lost, or surrendered. See Synonyms at reparation.
2. The act of making good or compensating for loss, damage, or injury; indemnification.
3. A return to or restoration of a previous state or position.


There is no way that dying for stealing restores what was stolen. Contrition is not restitution, neither is repentance.

For this individual it is impractical for him to come down from the cross to repair the wrong he has committed hence the need for some other form of restitution.

Again this is contradictory nonsense - you claimed that you need to make restitution for 'every' sin, now you talk about practicality? Or maybe you've forgotten the meaning of 'every'? How do you make 'restitution' for sins you've forgotten since you need to make restitution for 'every' sin - i.e. no exceptions?

As I said earlier, PUNISHMENT is NOT restitution - if you are confused, look up the definition of the word.

Christ tried to teach the need for making restitution when he said:

Matthew 5:23-24
23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift".[/quote[

Again, you are talking nonsense. This has NOTHING to do with restitution! If it is a matter of restitution, why would you go to the person who has wronged you and you call it restitution? Does the person stolen from make restitution to the thief?

[quote]
Christ even made it quite difficult cause in this case, you need not be the one at fault. If Christ says the above when we are not guilty, how much more in a case where we are guilty? Restitution in other words is like making peace with your neighbour when you have wronged the individual.

This is about RECONCILIATION, and NOT restitution! Learn the basic differences between words and stop conflating issues here.

There are clear-cut cases where one would NEED to return whatever was taken from the neighbour but this is not to say that there are cases where judgment cannot be applied. For instance, if one commits murder, that individual has taken the life of someone. In making restitution, I do not expect the individual to give back the life. This would be "silly"! At the minimum, I expect the individual to be truly sorry for the sin committed and an apology would be in order. If there is a punishment (like a jail term) given to this individual I expect him or her to accept this in good faith. This is restitution!

Going to jail is not restitution - if a thief steals money, doesn't return it and goes to jail it is not restitution, so even in the case of murder, it is not restitution, only PUNISHMENT.

You and Mr. Frosbel keeps giving the example of an adulterous woman. What we should understand is that no matter how we paint what is wrong, it can never be right. If indeed the example has to do with adultery then I expect the individuals involved to stop living this life. There is no justification for adultery! I really won't blame the rightful husband if he decides not to accept this woman back and quite frankly I do not expect her to go back to the husband. It would be very messy. But at the minimum, I expect an apology to the rightful husband, a profound contrition for the sin committed and a firm resolution not to go back to the sin of adultery again.

No one is painting what is wrong as right - what I am exposing is the ludicrous idea you are trying to put forward. Apology is NOT restitution, it does not make up for the loss of the wife - all the adulterer can do is seek forgiveness and nothing more.

[quote author=alexleo]

What do you mean by that? if you say its not the doctrine of christ tell me where the bible said that if the adultrous woman has given birth to children she shouldnt leave the man

Certain facts :

1. The sin was committed in unbelief
2. Repentance has taken place
3. Both parties are now married
4. Children are involved


Therefore, it is a 'holier than thou' attitude to suggest that the new families are destroyed , and for the children to be brought up with no father or mother, living in single parents homes etc.

You cannot confuse people who have been hurt by this experience , with your church's man made doctrine.

The rule is Christ's , not Apostolic Faith or Deeperlife.

Also , if we follow your logic, then the couple are actually allowed to divorce and move on based on the following verse :

"Matthew 5:32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."

Both parties would have committed marital unfaithfulness and therefore are permitted to divorce and move on .

and then :

"then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance." - Deuteronomy 24:4

Some of you say this scripture no longer applies which is rubbish, God changes not, he is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Otherwise , by your logic, if this verse is obsolete, we might as well start marrying our sisters or cousins and sleep with women when they have their p.eriods, all of which are also forbidden in the old testament. Nay , they still apply brothers , even till today, stop twisting the word of GOD to align with the rules of MAN.

Finally , allow me qualify my point. This is mainly applicable to unbelievers who never knew Christ and sinned in ignorance. Indeed they will reap the heart aches and pain that come with this sort of baggage, but God will forgive them no doubt.

Frosbel u like being sentimental wherever bible appears hard but it doesnt change anything.

Hard !!!

This is a Pharisee response, the Pharisees made it almost impossible for anyone to enter into the kingdom of GOD including themselves.

wordthots

1. Because salvation is free does not mean you should be lawless and you are not working your way you are only being 'obedient' even unto death just as he was. the keyword here is obedient. what are you obeying is it your own carnal willfull law or the law of christ wich is the complete word of God pls note math 5:17 God would never contradict himself

Please try and cross reference all instances of Yashua speaking on the law he never said there was no need to be obedient and in his living example he fufilled the law to the letter apart from the type of sacrifice he offerd

The keyword here my brethren is 'sacrifice' with a change in the priesthood came a change in the tebaernacle which we now say is the human physical body and acceptable sacrifice which are our inward thoughts our prayers. We all know our inward thoughts always reflect in our action destiny in words.

Heb 7:11 "For if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come - one in the order of Melchisedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, THERE MUST ALSO BE A CHANGE OF THE 'LAW'.


Please note a change in the law no be say you throway everything create
your own system?

So although the Levitical priesthood is established forever, together with all the laws that accompanied it, a new priesthood has arisen - after the order of Melchisedek.these priests offer a different type of sacrifice they offer themselves so the holy spirit can fill them up, he always knows when you truly offer yourself an acceptable sacrifice

Remember my brethren how moses in the desert told every farther of the home to become a priest so that the family unit could reflect the heavenly zion, this is the brazen serpent the final cure selfsacrice typpefied in the rightouse rule of the farther the kingdom of heaven.

This would in actuality mean that the farhters position in the home would be twofold one as head of state (temporal power)and secondly as head of church(spiritual power authority) King Priest just like melchizedek.



Imagine a nation like that waoooo!! why allow your mind to be conrolled you already know right from wrong no one needs to tell you and at that time one will not teach another for they shall all know God.

Exodus 19:1-24:18 (Read 19)


Israel did not obey His voice nor keep His laws, and therefore they did not become a national priesthood. Instead, God chose one family- the family of Aaron - and he and his sons were ordained to officiate as a special priesthood, as we read in Exodus 28:1: "and take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother and his sons with him from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto Me in the priest's office." The New Testament tells us in Heb. 7:11 that this was known as the "Levitical" priesthood because Aaron and his sons were of the tribe of Levi. It is often called the Aaronic priesthood because Aaron was its first High Priest - see Heb. 5:4. This priesthood functioned during the Old Testament days and was still in force when our Lord came

Men ordained within the order of melchizedek as we see it in the torah not a conclusive list:

1. Yashua son of joseph and his brethren
2. John the baptist
3. Daniel and his brethren
5. King David
6. Joseph
7. Samuel
8. Samson
9. Elijah

wordthots regarding restitution.

True restitution can only be attained through confession, confession is good for the soul. I dont mean you need to confess your sins to any one individual per say more like an acknolowdgement of doing wrong and a sincere repentance.

psalm 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin [is] ever before me.


Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest.


51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden [part] thou shalt make me to know wisdom.


Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.


Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; [that] the bones [which] thou hast broken may rejoice.


Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.


Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spririt within me



In situation where the oportunity to make ammends is not possible then one must fall on the holy spirit psalm 51

verse 17 reads The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

peace love and joy!!!

There is a peace that comes with coming clean of one's wrongdoing. And restitution is not limited to just unbelievers. If you tell a lie that puts someone in trouble or even jail, do you think asking forgiveness from God alone will make it good? If you ask God for forgiveness and refuse to own up, it means one is not loving his neighbour.
There are sins that have consequences and some that one gets off lightly.
Someone cannot knock down a pedestrian and he escapes claiming he has asked for forgiveness.

I have had instances where I had to make restitution even as a teenager because I lied or took something without telling the owner.
God has given us a conscience not just to ask for forgiveness from him when we do wrong but also to work out the free gift of salvation he has given us.
Acts 24:16 talks about a clear conscience towards God and man. Also Romans 13:5; I Timothy 1:5,19.

Some restitutions just have to be done for conscience sake.

To give a twist to those who are talking about marriage restitution, anytime someone causes another woman to be kicked out of her matrimonial home whether in ignorance or delibrately so she can take over, if she truly is repentant, she will leave the man for the rightful owner to return. The children they may have between them does not change anything, the man remains their father.
If the rightful owner has remarried, the usurper will still have to beg the woman for forgiveness and whichever way it is resolved is left to them to handle.
But not all cases may be this clear-cut.

James 5:16 also talks about confessing sins one to another for healing.
One needs not wait for death bed confessions of some sins anyway. It just makes the heart less burdened especially if you have a very strong conscience.

Tithe things.

[quote author=frosbel][/quote]

I still maintain that your stand is wrong and misleading. I cant be deceived by your cut and join system of quoting the bible. Anybody that is truly born again will not find it hard to come out from a so called marriage which she is an adulterer. Its omly a person who is not truly born again and sincere about restitutions that will fall for your position which is both wrong and misleading.

alexleo:

I still maintain that your stand is wrong and misleading. I cant be deceived by your cut and join system of quoting the bible. Anybody that is truly born again will not find it hard to come out from a so called marriage which she is an adulterer. Its omly a person who is not truly born again and sincere about restitutions that will fall for your position which is both wrong and misleading.

Your opinion !

You cannot pick and choose scripture when it suits you .

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," - 2 Timothy 3:16

As you did on my other thread on eternal torment, you conveniently skipped all the scripture quoted to stick to your stance.


Please answer this scripture , stop beating around the bush.

"the first husband may not marry her again, for she has been defiled. That would be detestable to the LORD. You must not bring guilt upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as a special possession." - Deuteronomy 24:4

staying up !

Like i said earlier, its such a shame and saddening that christians begin to query basics of the christian faith without any real hinge. i said not to comment earlier, but will need to.
This is where christianity is been led to in the name of the law. This is not the christian life, salvation, eternal life that Christ died for. That we only obey what we see from Acts to Revelation. This is false doctrine, and strong deceit. The Word of God is unchanging, the standard of God is perfect. Whether you see it in Genesis or in Titus, the Word of God abides for ever. It is a similar issue that most of the folks here had with tithes. They require that you convince them where it is written after calvary before they obey it. This is not christianity. i wonder what and how the first century christians lived then, as they didn't even have the epistles like we do today.
Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Is the above passage old testament and therefore of no relevance to christians? Must one see a parallel of this inside Acts to Revelation before he can know the mind of God?
Restitution. For God's sake, restitution. i didn't imagine i'll have to argue with a CHRISTIAN on the relevance of restitution to the christian life. It has become that bad. And the issue is now that, once there is nobody to speak for, or argue well, then many reader will throw away all caution and previous knowledge, and take a thread as the final authority. It is assumed that once you don't answer, you don't have an answer. Where are the Bereanic christians who did not toss to and fro, and base their christianity or deconversion on threads?
Not to talk much, i"m afraid still that even with what i'm about to stay, those who have the evil heart of unbelief will still manifest. Those who will say Jesus is not Lord because Image123 said Jesus is Lord are around. And it sorrily boils down to how sweet my arguments will be. Well, may God touch those who are sincere and honest in their doubts.
Repentance itself connotes, denotes and implies restitution. Repentance is to be sorry, to change ways. Restitution is giving back, paying back or returning. True repentance of a thief implies that he is sorry for stealing and stops to steal. It is a 180^o turn. Even an atheist knows that stolen money should be returned or apologised for if one is truly repentant. Many hypocrites here were gaga about pastor chris and adeboye returning tithes and offerings from accused persons. Restitution is to have a conscience void of offence. In the new testament, doing God's will is not about obeying Acts to Revelation. doing God's will comes from the grace that the christian has received. In the old covenant, they tried to do God's will to be justified. In the new covenant, we are justified to do God's will. So God's will is not what is changing from Old to New. It is the process.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ordained that we should walk in them.
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Unfortunately, the christains today are not zealous of good works. They need to be convinced. They know too much than to be fooled.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.
1Co 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
Where are the christians that will obey this new testamental advices? Again, i know i'm wasting your time so let me go straight to the OP's

Restitution was practiced by Paul in Acts when he apologised for the man he disrespected.
Act 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Act 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

In Acts, he also said,
Act 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men.
Act 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God unto this day.
Anything that disturbed his conscience, he resolved. That's restitution. That when God's spirit, or God's Word, or God's messenger reminds you of something that is wrong and needs correction, that you ask for grace and the leading of God to know what to do. These are the little things that woill make rewards differ in eternity. i'm not saying or preaching that you will not go to heaven for not doing restitution. It is Christ that saves, not works. But you will be rewarded according to your work. The book of Philemon is RESTITUTION. Paul was sending back run away Onesimus to his master, and promised to pay any debt incurred. i'll stop here as i'm certain that all that is needed to believe that restitution was practised in the church is here already.

^
Indeed, you need to read the bible again all over but this time, without the denominational mindset. Can you answer this question since you understand Salvation which came by Jesus Christ.

Goshen360:

When someone in our natural world gives you a gift, do you say, "That's a very beautiful and lovely gift - NOW, HOW MUCH DO I OWE YOU?"

Amplified Bible (AMP)
For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] - Ephesians 2:8-9

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^ I don't like engaging in prolonged argument with him anymore because while Christ ENDED (already fulfilled) the law, Image123 is MENDING the law to God's people under the NT. The law was given by Moses.....equation (1) but Grace and Truth came by Jesus.....equation (2). Hebrews 10:9 tells you how to solve the equation - DELETE equation (1) and ADD equation (2) then you are set free but people like Image123 is telling us not to HIT the DELETE button but rather SAVE and ADD both equations.

Frosbel, no worry....I undo my quote.....

Image123: Tithe things.

How the heck did I miss this statement? Anyway, if you wish to derail the thread, I have just two questions for you to answer maybe that will expose you and your false tithe teaching for Christians..... Lemme know if you're interested.

Goshen360: Frosbel, no worry....I undo my quote.....

not to worry bro, I just did not think it was worth debating with that chap, discussions should always be made in a calm, calculated and informed manner, not throwing out 1 million emotional words per second, you know what I mean

Anyway, I disagree with you slightly on the restitution issue.

I believe it is important to return stolen money or money owed when we become christians because this action of love will stir the hearts of the unsaved and probably bring them to the gospel.

However any action we take must always be by the leading of the Spirit of GOD , we should be careful not to get dragged into a situation where the devil begins to accuse us to the point of returning a pin that we borrowed or stole 20 years ago. If God says do it , we should.

My personal bone of contention is on the issue of marriage where a divorce has happened, another family started in a situation of unbelief, that is in ignorance.

When such a person becomes a Christian, some have erroneously stated that they must return the wife to the husband or vice versa as the case maybe, even though :

1. They have remarried
2. Now have a new set of children
3. A certificate of divorce has been issued.

There are two problems with this line of arguement.

1. If we take into consideration , that the only condition for a divorce is marital unfaithfulness, then this divorce is valid.

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." - Matthew 19:9

2. Since this divorce is valid, the woman or man cannot return to their first spouse according to this bible verse :

"If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and marries another man, should he return to her again? Would not the land be completely defiled? But you have lived as a prostitute with many lovers--would you now return to me?" declares the LORD." - Jeremiah 3:1

"then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance." - Deuteronomy 24:4

So my point is , we cannot pick and choose which verses to quote in alignment with our personal or church's perspective. We have to compare scripture with scripture and stop bringing people under condemnation.

And what is the implication of matthew 5:31,32 to the genesis 24? Read the genesis 24 from verse 1-4 and see you and me who is cherry picking the scripture. Frosbel, while i commend ur love for using the scriptures to deal with issues, let me caution that you thread softly in coming to a conclusion so as not to misinterprete or misapply the scriptures. The consequences are usually grave due to souls that will be deceived by such misapplication. For someone like me i cannot fall for such but for some others, you never can tell. Yes you talked about the other thread and what i didnt reply you. I ve said it before and am still saying again, there is a limit to which i can argue bible with people and i stop. The Holy spirit remains the best guide to all truths of the bible and i will always consult him. You are not the Holy Spirit and i am not so i cannot rely on my arguments with you as the final answer thats why i find it unneccessary and a waste of time to engage in long argument over any biblical issue. Call it anything you want, thats my own stand. If that will also make you feel like a champion in biblical arguements, go ahead.

frosbel:

Your opinion !

You cannot pick and choose scripture when it suits you .

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," - 2 Timothy 3:16

As you did on my other thread on eternal torment, you conveniently skipped all the scripture quoted to stick to your stance.


Please answer this scripture , stop beating around the bush.

"the first husband may not marry her again, for she has been defiled. That would be detestable to the LORD. You must not bring guilt upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as a special possession." - Deuteronomy 24:4

Goshen360: ^ I don't like engaging in prolonged argument with him anymore because while Christ ENDED (already fulfilled) the law, Image123 is MENDING the law to God's people under the NT. The law was given by Moses.....equation (1) but Grace and Truth came by Jesus.....equation (2). Hebrews 10:9 tells you how to solve the equation - DELETE equation (1) and ADD equation (2) then you are set free but people like Image123 is telling us not to HIT the DELETE button but rather SAVE and ADD both equations.

So your stand is that we need not bother about the old testament, rather we should face the new testament?

alexleo: And what is the implication of matthew 5:31,32 to the genesis 24? Read the genesis 24 from verse 1-4 and see you and me who is cherry picking the scripture. Frosbel, while i commend ur love for using the scriptures to deal with issues, let me caution that you thread softly in coming to a conclusion so as not to misinterprete or misapply the scriptures. The consequences are usually grave due to souls that will be deceived by such misapplication. For someone like me i cannot fall for such but for some others, you never can tell. Yes you talked about the other thread and what i didnt reply you. I ve said it before and am still saying again, there is a limit to which i can argue bible with people and i stop. The Holy spirit remains the best guide to all truths of the bible and i will always consult him. You are not the Holy Spirit and i am not so i cannot rely on my arguments with you as the final answer thats why i find it unneccessary and a waste of time to engage in long argument over any biblical issue. Call it anything you want, thats my own stand. If that will also make you feel like a champion in biblical arguments, go ahead.

The problem I have with you is that you never discuss scripture, you just state your opinion which is almost always the church position.

Please , if you cannot compare scripture with scripture, what's the point even talking about these issues with you.

I don't want your opinion, I want bible opinion with scriptures to back it up, if you can't comply with this simple requirement, let us not debate further.

Respectfully,

Frosbel.

alexleo:

So your stand is that we need not bother about the old testament, rather we should face the new testament?

Brother, we need align scripture properly. ALL scriptures (old and new) is given by the inspiration of God and profitable for teaching BUT not all scriptures is for us to follow. If we are to follow ALL scriptures, then you will still need to follow the laws of Moses because it is also part of the ALL. Grace and truth CAME by Jesus Christ. It was the same God who established the Old that took away the Old in order to establish the New. Place yourself on Hebrews and Romans for some time and you will understand better.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
He made us able [adequate; competent] to be servants of a new agreement from himself to his people [covenant; Jer. 31:31–34; Luke 22:20]. This new agreement [covenant] is not a written law [ of the letter], but it is of the Spirit. The written law [ letter] brings death, but the Spirit gives life. - 2 Corinthians 3:6

@ Frosbel,

You see my brother. Everybody will analyze his or her case for or against restitution. I ONLY agree with the part you said, "AS THE SPIRIT LEADS" because every child of God being led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. This part I cannot argue but we do not have restitution has part of our fulfillment or completeness to salvation because it is the gift of God and we are NEVER instructed to fulfill the demands of the law in Salvation that comes through faith in Christ Jesus. As much as we keep analyzing everyone's case, we make issues complex for Christians.

By the way, I sent you an email towards our other discussion. Check your email bro.

^^^

sure, I have responded.

Okay. I will look @ it. Thanks

Image123: Like i said earlier, its such a shame and saddening that christians begin to query basics of the christian faith without any real hinge. i said not to comment earlier, but will need to.
This is where christianity is been led to in the name of the law. This is not the christian life, salvation, eternal life that Christ died for. That we only obey what we see from Acts to Revelation. This is false doctrine, and strong deceit. The Word of God is unchanging, the standard of God is perfect. Whether you see it in Genesis or in Titus, the Word of God abides for ever. It is a similar issue that most of the folks here had with tithes. They require that you convince them where it is written after calvary before they obey it. This is not christianity. i wonder what and how the first century christians lived then, as they didn't even have the epistles like we do today.
Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Is the above passage old testament and therefore of no relevance to christians? Must one see a parallel of this inside Acts to Revelation before he can know the mind of God?
Restitution. For God's sake, restitution. i didn't imagine i'll have to argue with a CHRISTIAN on the relevance of restitution to the christian life. It has become that bad. And the issue is now that, once there is nobody to speak for, or argue well, then many reader will throw away all caution and previous knowledge, and take a thread as the final authority. It is assumed that once you don't answer, you don't have an answer. Where are the Bereanic christians who did not toss to and fro, and base their christianity or deconversion on threads?
Not to talk much, i"m afraid still that even with what i'm about to stay, those who have the evil heart of unbelief will still manifest. Those who will say Jesus is not Lord because Image123 said Jesus is Lord are around. And it sorrily boils down to how sweet my arguments will be. Well, may God touch those who are sincere and honest in their doubts.
Repentance itself connotes, denotes and implies restitution. Repentance is to be sorry, to change ways. Restitution is giving back, paying back or returning. True repentance of a thief implies that he is sorry for stealing and stops to steal. It is a 180^o turn. Even an atheist knows that stolen money should be returned or apologised for if one is truly repentant. Many hypocrites here were gaga about pastor chris and adeboye returning tithes and offerings from accused persons. Restitution is to have a conscience void of offence. In the new testament, doing God's will is not about obeying Acts to Revelation. doing God's will comes from the grace that the christian has received. In the old covenant, they tried to do God's will to be justified. In the new covenant, we are justified to do God's will. So God's will is not what is changing from Old to New. It is the process.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ordained that we should walk in them.
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Unfortunately, the christains today are not zealous of good works. They need to be convinced. They know too much than to be fooled.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.
1Co 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
Where are the christians that will obey this new testamental advices? Again, i know i'm wasting your time so let me go straight to the OP's

Restitution was practiced by Paul in Acts when he apologised for the man he disrespected.
Act 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Act 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

In Acts, he also said,
Act 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men.
Act 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God unto this day.
Anything that disturbed his conscience, he resolved. That's restitution. That when God's spirit, or God's Word, or God's messenger reminds you of something that is wrong and needs correction, that you ask for grace and the leading of God to know what to do. These are the little things that woill make rewards differ in eternity. i'm not saying or preaching that you will not go to heaven for not doing restitution. It is Christ that saves, not works. But you will be rewarded according to your work. The book of Philemon is RESTITUTION. Paul was sending back run away Onesimus to his master, and promised to pay any debt incurred. i'll stop here as i'm certain that all that is needed to believe that restitution was practised in the church is here already.

, i knew they couldn't handle the truth if told. i thank God it was told.