[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/6/4/89894_images_image_6450_medium.jpg[/img]

Publication: 1905. Hall, R. N. and W.G. Seal. Great Zimbabwe. Mashonaland, Rhodesia. An Account of Two Years' Examination Work in 1902-4 on Behalf of the Government of Rhodesia.

Caption: "Fuko-ya-nebandge: the Mashonaland relic, discovered near Zimbabwe. (Fig. 5).

Illustration technique: b/w studio photograph

Keywords:
• Great Zimbabwe (Country, region, place)
• pigment (Materials and techniques)
• clay (Materials and techniques)
• quadruped (Notable features)
• striped (Notable features)
• neck spout (Notable features)
• pitcher (Object name, type)
• zoomorphic vessel (Object name, type)
• Ndebele (Style, culture group)
• Shona (Style, culture group)

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/2/7/91394_images_image_2749_medium.jpg[/img]

Publication: 1897. Christol, Frédéric. Au Sud de l'Afrique.

Original language: French

Caption translation: Fragments of sculptures found at Zimbabié (Cape Museum)

Text translation: "These ruins are situated in the country of the Matabélés, not far from Fort-Victoria, between the Limpopo and the Zambèze, and occupy considerable space. In Zimbabié, where the most significant remains are to be found, stands a massive stone tower, with very thick walls…”(p. 302)

Illustrator: Frédéric Christol, author of volume

Illustration technique: studio engraving

Keywords:
• Great Zimbabwe (Country, region, place)
• stone (Materials and techniques)
• elephant (Notable features)
• man (Notable features)
• zebra (Notable features)
• animal (Notable features)
• quadruped (Notable features)
• bas-relief (Object name, type)
• frieze fragment (Object name, type)
• Shona (Style, culture group)
• Ndebele (Style, culture group)

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/6/4/34726_images_image_6451_medium.jpg[/img]

Publication: 1905. Hall, R. N. and W.G. Seal. Great Zimbabwe. Mashonaland, Rhodesia. An Account of Two Years' Examination Work in 1902-4 on Behalf of the Government of Rhodesia.

Caption: Soapstone Beams with Birds, Zimbabwe. South African Museum, Capetown.

Illustration technique: b/w context photograph

Publication plate/figure: figure

Keywords:
• Great Zimbabwe (Country, region, place)
• soapstone (Materials and techniques)
• birds (Notable features)
• figurated finial (Notable features)
• vultures (Notable features)
• pole (Object name, type)
• beam (Object name, type)
• pedestal (Object name, type)
• Ndebele (Style, culture group)
• Shona (Style, culture group)

hmmmm.......

pleep: hmmmm.......

lol, so you're still on this "phallic looking structures = promiscuity" stuff?

I still think it's more likely that that they were religious pillars and birds had some spiritual significance in the worldview of the Shona of that area. I'm not saying that it's impossible that it's a phallic structure or that it can't be both, but it seems unlikely to me. If you have any strong supporting evidence for your conjecture, feel free to present it.

And were those other cultures that did have phallic symbols renowned for their promiscuity? Do their descendants have problems with promiscuity today?

Well no, there is a huge possibility that those are actually not phallic structures. I wouldn't bet my life on it. I simply think there is an interesting correlation between the appearance of those figures with phallic symbolism in other civilizations

But yes, the cultures that widely used phallic imagery were extremely promiscuious. The biblical description of Sodom and Gamorrah is an accurate depiction of urban sexuality in the middle east during that time. (including Eygpt) Feast days an celebrations were usually òrgies, homosexuality, bisexuality and beastiality were common practices.

Every year the Pharoah of eygpt participated in a ceremony that involved him ejaculating into the nile

As for Rome, i think the movie "Caligula" gives the best description of sexual attitudes in that empire. Phallic imagery was everywhere at one point almost every household had an image of a penis inside, males also carried silver phallic pendants like the one pictured above.

Ancient Rome is where such terms as Còitus interruptus, fállacio, and Çunnilingus arise. The true extent of roman sexuality was found in the ruins of Pompeii and Herculaneum

Its also interesting to note that most of the most lewed images from the roman empire were destroyed... historians would have had no idea the true extent of these practices if the evidence had not been preserved at Pompeii'

We really have no way of telling how promiscuious ancient african cultures were without having to jump to conclusions based on the parrellels we see from other civilizations.

^
I get what you're saying, and I'll respond later. But for now, can you remove that image? It's not that the images or comments we post have to all be wholesome and family friendly or anything, but that image is explicit and it doesn't really fit the topic of the thread.

k

Thanks.

Ruins of the city of Kerma, in modern-day Sudan

[img]http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/stsmith/research/images/210.jpg[/img]


Kerma is one of the largest Nubian archaeological sites. It has produced decades of extensive excavations and research, including thousands of graves and tombs and the residential quarters of the main city surrounding the Western/Lower Deffufa. The Kerma site has been confirmed by archaeology to be at least 9,500 years old.

Around 3000 BC, a cultural tradition began around Kerma. Kerma was a large urban center that was built around a large mud brick temple, known as the Western Deffufa. Some unique aspects of this culture were beautiful pottery, the importance of cattle, a system of defense, and the King's audience chamber, which bears no resemblance to any Egyptian building (it was rebuilt 10 times).

'Kerma' is also used to describe the early Sudanese culture, of which Kerma was capital. The material culture at Kerma is synonymous with the culture of Kush. This was one of the earliest African civilizations, commanding an empire that circa 1600 BCE rivaled Egypt (stretching from the First to Fourth Cataracts).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerma

Ruins of Kumbi Saleh, Capital of the Ghana Empire (9th to 14th century)

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.......................................[img]http://2.bp..com/-P-_4EcREYiM/UHtaDFkDGTI/AAAAAAAAAAo/cqwWoEUIvvY/s1600/Ghana_Wagadou_Village01_full.jpg[/img]
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Great Zimbabwe Ruins, 11th Century

[img]http://dudewereinafrica.files./2012/01/great-zimbabwe-1-of-6.jpg[/img]
[img]http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/images/5108as11.jpg[/img]
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Nok Sculpture Nigeria (1000 BC)

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................................................[img]http://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTL7A_p_9OuPyYs4zDP_fheyU_VFM0--QFF6tLegfXTGKv0VilGYQ[/img]
................................................[img]http://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEqM2reJx0l3lgXqHXn3WYii3KVVRjr_EkWkNoQ3stK7CsmgHZRQ[/img]

pleep: Well no, there is a huge possibility that those are actually not phallic structures. I wouldn't bet my life on it. I simply think there is an interesting correlation between the appearance of those figures with phallic symbolism in other civilizations

But yes, the cultures that widely used phallic imagery were extremely promiscuious. The biblical description of Sodom and Gamorrah is an accurate depiction of urban sexuality in the middle east during that time. (including Eygpt) Feast days an celebrations were usually òrgies, homosexuality, bisexuality and beastiality were common practices.

Every year the Pharoah of eygpt participated in a ceremony that involved him ejaculating into the nile

Assuming that that is all 100% true, it can't be assumed that every society that also used imagery that was intentionally or unintentionally phallic was also as promiscuous as these societies.

As for Rome, i think the movie "Caligula" gives the best description of sexual attitudes in that empire. Phallic imagery was everywhere at one point almost every household had an image of a penis inside, males also carried silver phallic pendants like the one pictured above.

Ancient Rome is where such terms as Còitus interruptus, fállacio, and Çunnilingus arise. The true extent of roman sexuality was found in the ruins of Pompeii and Herculaneum

So. . .basically the Romans were extremely promiscuous and were chock full of STDs?

I'm wondering how you even know all this stuff about how perverse ancient societies were before Christianity and Islam took over. I sure as hell didn't learn any of this stuff in the world history class I took.

I looked up Caligula and apparently the idea that he was a crazed s3xual deviant originates from later writers who viewed him as a bad leader/ruler and wrote negative things about him long after he was dead to cast aspersions on his personal character.

pleep: We really have no way of telling how promiscuious ancient african cultures were without having to jump to conclusions based on the parrellels we see from other civilizations.

I'm pretty sure there are some precolonial writings from non-African visitors that comment on this issue though (besides the one you referenced in that other thread regarding Mali). And there would probably also be accounts from 19th and early 20th century ethnographers on African social practices that mention what the degree of promiscuity was or what s3xual norms were. I don't really know much about that sort of stuff (ethnographic studies of African social mores) so unfortunately I couldn't give an overview of what African s3xual mores were like for most groups. But basically, I doubt that there is really "no way of telling." There's probably enough information to get a general picture, but it would probably involve a huge amount of reading about a subject (precolonial African s3xuality) that isn't interesting enough to me in and of itself to justify all that time and reading.

^ I'm not talking about the man himself, i mean the movie. It is probably the most accurate depiction of life in pre-christian ancient Rome. Keep in mind this was a time period when many workers and slaves would be completely naked, the poor and beggars would be naked or almost naked, people would urinate and defecate in public...people would be selling phallic images in the street, homosexual orgies were social events etc...

The unedited version is probably one the most sexually explicit move ever created.

Assuming that that is all 100% true, it can't be assumed that every society that also used imagery that was intentionally or unintentionally phallic was also as promiscuous as these societies.

Its my opinion that over-sexuality is a by-product of urban life and will occur in every society without an outside force (like Christianity or Islam suppressing it).

Did you watch the video i posted in the "Jew" thread? If such deviant sexual behaviors as sex with babies was condoned by the "conservative" Talmud i think its safe to say it was pretty much endemic in the ancient world.

So. . .basically the Romans were chock full of STDs?

They didn't have nearly as many as we do now, and if they did get STD's they probably thought it was something else.

Syphillis is said to have originated in the Inca empire where farmers often had intercourse with llamas, it came to Europe via the trade ships.

But there is another theory that says the disease has always been in the old world but was passed off as leprosy, (early forms of syphilis had the same effects on the skin). However, ancient STD's often killed their victims too quickly to become endemic. I think medival syphillis killed its victims in weeks


Fun fact: Many Ancient eygptian mummies were found with Crocodile Dung in their vagainas as a primitive contraceptive.

I thought the Romans had public toilets and bath-houses or something like that? And why would anyone want to defecate in public? That's revolting (and also doesn't afford one much privacy). Were the streets of Roman cities usually sh1t-infested and filled with people selling images or figures of pricks in the streets, or was this not really widespread and only found in a few places and only over certain short periods of time?

Assuming that, as you said, over-sexuality will occur in every urban society that lacks a religion that stresses chastity and s3xual modesty (as Christianity and Islam do), how do we know that there weren't societies in Africa that had such beliefs? I don't know what the beliefs of the Shona of Zimbabwe were about promiscuity and s3xual modesty prior to colonization, but I bet somebody, somewhere, has published a book or an article about it. I wouldn't be okay with just assuming that se.xual promiscuity was the order of the day in that society when there might have been societal beliefs and practices that countered that which I just haven't read about.

I didn't watch the video you posted in that thread yet but I'll probably watch it tomorrow and give my opinion on it in that thread.

Fun fact: Many Ancient eygptian mummies were found with Crocodile Dung in their vagainas as a primitive contraceptive.

Also didn't learn this in world history class. Where are you getting this info from?

I just remembered that the NYPL (New York Public Library) Digital Gallery website has a lot of interesting images of precolonial and early colonial Africa. So tomorrow I'll update this thread with a lot of pictures from both the RAAI and the NYPL Digital Gallery website.

Fantastic thread as always, Physics.

^
Thanks.

Please if you can show the relations of moors to black people that would be great. Our ancestors played huge roles in many factors in the "middle east" which are all attributed to arabs. People like to pretend that all black people were minding their own business and kept to themselves,but we were at the forefront of trade in many instances.

^

I actually don't want to dwell on the Moors. Not that I don't care about the black presence in North Africa, but I really want to focus more on other areas in Africa instead, since some of those areas seem to get short shrift sometimes while a disproportionate amount of attention is paid to black people in North Africa. Maybe you could open a separate thread specifically on the black presence in North Africa and the Middle East and various posters could contribute what they know to the thread.

That is fair, I might do just that.

[img]http://raai.library.yale.edu/web/art/6/3/38235_images_image_6333_medium.jpg[/img]

Publication: 1898. Gallieni, Général and Capitaine Binger. "Les Français Chez Samory: Vues, dessins, portraits (double)." Supplement to "Pages Obliées: Deux Visites à Samory & Pages Oubliées: Réception Familière ." Les Annales Politiques et Littéraires, Vol. 31, No. 798.

Original language: French

Caption translation: In Samory's country: 10. The favorite griot dancing.

Text translation: "The hour grows long nevertheless, amid the distractions that the almamy-emir offers us, and a heavy heat renders the spot untenable. Samory perceives that we are suffering on the burning esplanade, and, after having thanked us and wished us pleasant rest, he gives us an escort of horsemen to accompany us to the lodging which has been prepared for us. Already, our servants and baggage have been conveyed there; we throw ourselves on our camp beds without even thinking of lunching, for we are literally suffocated by the heat and dust." (p.234)

Illustration technique: b/w context engraving

Publication page: 233

Keywords:
• Mali (Country, region, place)
• Cote d'Ivoire (Country, region, place)
• Guinea (Country, region, place)
• fiber (Materials and techniques)
• fabric (Materials and techniques)
• griot costume (Notable features)
• hood mask (Object name, type)
• kora (Object name, type)
• Mande (Style, culture group)

[img]http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1267813&t=w[/img]

Image Title
: Un cavalier cuirassé.

Additional Name(s)
: Alis, Harry, 1857-1895 -- Author

Item/Page/Plate
: p. 269

Source
: Nos africains : la Mission Crampel, la mission Dybowski, la mission Mizon, la mission Monteil, la mission Maistre, le Soudan, le Dahomey, les missions soudanaises, le seconde mission Mizon et les puissances européennes dans l'Afrique centrale, le Congo franais, Obock, le Soudan francais, la Côte d'Ivoire, le Sud-algérien, les cables sous-marins, quelques remarques / Harry Alis.

Location
: Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture / General Research and Reference Division


(This is from the NYPL Digital Gallery website)

[img]http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1504598&t=w[/img]

Image Title
: Abdel Gassam, a Fellatah from Timboctoo. A Bornouese, on a journey.

Creator
: Finden, Edward Francis, 1791-1857 -- Engraver

Additional Name(s)
: Denham, Dixon, 1786-1828 -- Author

Specific Material Type
: Printed text

Item/Page/Plate
: opp. pg. 177

Source
: Narrative of travels and discoveries in Northern and Central Africa, in the years 1822, 1823, and 1824. Vol I & II.

Location
: Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture / Manuscripts, Archives and Rare Books Division


(The "Fellatah" (Fulani) man is on the left, and the "Bornouese" (Kanuri) is on the right)

[img]http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1247371&t=w[/img]

Image Title
: War Implements. Knives, Scimitars, Bows, Spears and Arrows, War Horn, Canoe Paddle.

Specific Material Type
: Printed text

Item/Page/Plate
: opp. Pg. 272

Source
: Glimpses of Africa, West and Southwest coast ; containing the author's impressions and observations during a voyage of six thousand miles from Sierra Leone to St. Paul de Loanda and return, including the Rio del Ray and Cameroons rivers, and the Congo River, from its mouth to Matadi.

Location
: Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture / Manuscripts, Archives and Rare Books Division

[img]http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1149582&t=w[/img]

Image Title
: A Chief in his state canoe, Bonny River, Niger Delta.

Additional Name(s)
: Johnston, Harry Hamilton, Sir, 1858-1927 -- Author

Specific Material Type
: Prints

Item/Page/Plate
: 316

Source
: Britain across the seas: Africa; a history and description of the British Empire in Africa.

Source Description
: xix, 429 p. illus. (incl. ports.) 7 maps. 24cm.

Location
: Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture / General Research and Reference Division

[img]http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1242113&t=w[/img]

Image Title
: Det kongelige Palads i Segu.

Additional Name(s)
: Bruun, Daniel, 1856-1931 -- Author

Specific Material Type
: Prints

Item/Page/Plate
: 69

Source
: Afrika; dets opdagelse, erobring og kolonisation. Populaert frematillet.

Source Description
: 2 v. in 1 illus., maps (part fold.) 26 cm.

Location
: Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture / General Research and Reference Division


(This is an image of part of the palace in Segou, in southern Mali. Segou was the capital of the Bambara empire until its capture by Umar Tall in 1861. This image is from 1901.)

[img]http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1267613&t=w[/img]

Griots. -- Instruments de tam-tam (Bambara). (1901)

Image Details

Image Title
: Griots. -- Instruments de tam-tam (Bambara).

Item/Page/Plate
: p. 182

Source
: Haut-Sénégal et Moyen-Niger : Kita et Segou / par A. Pérignon.

Source Description
: 208 p. : ill., map. ; 26 cm.

Location
: Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture / General Research and Reference Division

Subjects and Names

Bambara (African people)
Griots
Malians
Musical instruments -- Africa
Musicians -- African
Ségou (Mali : Région)
Tom-tom
West Africans