Is it?

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons or hypostases:[1] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".[2] A nature is what one is, while a person is who one is.[3][4][5]

The Trinity is considered to be a mystery of Christian faith.[6] According to this doctrine, there is only one God in three persons. Each person is God, whole and entire. They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds". While distinct in their relations with one another, they are one in all else. The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three divine persons, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.[6] The three persons are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial.

Trinitarianism (one deity in three persons) contrasts with nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity in two persons, or two deities), Unitarianism (one deity in one person, analogous to Jewish interpretation of the Shema and Muslim belief in Tawhid), Oneness Pentecostalism or Modalism (one deity manifested in three separate aspects), and social trinitarianism (three persons united by mutual love and accord).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

Yes it is

I will take the bait and say YES.

This should hit a few pages by COB

frosbel: I will take the bait and say YES.

This should hit a few pages by COB

But then you do not believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, and as such your answer is understandable. This question is really directed at Christians who believe in the Trinity and assert that their faith is yet monotheistic.

Deep Sight:

But then you do not believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, and as such your answer is understandable. This question is really directed at Christians who believe in the Trinity and assert that their faith is yet monotheistic.

Ahh!!!!.....deepsight you would soon see some fellows come up here to tell you that 1 God in three persons or one God manifesting in 3 different aspects all equals to one God......

Anybody who believes in the trinity can believe anything.........

Deep Sight:

But then you do not believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, and as such your answer is understandable. This question is really directed at Christians who believe in the Trinity and assert that their faith is yet monotheistic.

Bros this trinity doctrine has been thrashed out severally on this forum and has been established not to be a true christian doctrine since it has no sound biblical basis but rather a catholic invention to suit some of their false doctrines. The question why bring up again this over flogged topic

Pastor Kun:

Bros this trinity doctrine has been thrashed out severally on this forum and has been established not to be a true christian doctrine since it has no sound biblical basis but rather a catholic invention to suit some of their false doctrines. The question why bring up again this over flogged topic

Like Mary , Mother of GOD etc.

anyway I agree, it has been exhausted on this forum.

frosbel:

Like Mary , Mother of GOD etc.

anyway I agree, it has been exhausted on this forum.

At a point in catholic history, Mary was actually the third member of the trinity in fact this was one of the major problems Mohamed had with 'christianity' then and probably one of the reasons he decided to start his own religion.

So Pastor Kun, how do we explain d Holy Spirit?

Another way to look at trinity is: not to assert God as a person, but as a Status, some unique phenomenonal character which the Father shares with the Son and the Holy Spirit. So in essence, in the divine plane above man/physicality and created transcendence, lies God (a flavour) (therein abstracts as numbers are inapplicable)

Religion, I have been told several times, even on this forum, is not an intellectual exercise.

Things of Faith do not require any form of intellectual rigour.

Trying, as we habitually do, to intellectually dissect religious doctrines or beliefs, always turn into an excercise in futility.
Faith in doctrine simply requires acceptance, whereas, intellectual arguments require conviction.
Acceptance and conviction are not the same thing.

Religion perpetuates itself simply by building thick walls of contrived mysteries around itself.
These walls of contrived mysteries then serve as barriers to keep out the probing torch lights of the intellect.

The trinity doctrine is one of such contrived mysteries. It is not supposed to be understood. We are supposed to look at it with great awe and accept it.
No questions required.

Nope, trinitariaN CHRISTIANITY IS NOT

Deep Sight: Is it?

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons or hypostases:[1] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".[2] A nature is what one is, while a person is who one is.[3][4][5]

The Trinity is considered to be a mystery of Christian faith.[6] According to this doctrine, there is only one God in three persons. Each person is God, whole and entire. They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds". While distinct in their relations with one another, they are one in all else. The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three divine persons, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.[6] The three persons are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial.

Trinitarianism (one deity in three persons) contrasts with nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity in two persons, or two deities), Unitarianism (one deity in one person, analogous to Jewish interpretation of the Shema and Muslim belief in Tawhid), Oneness Pentecostalism or Modalism (one deity manifested in three separate aspects), and social trinitarianism (three persons united by mutual love and accord).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

Still drinking your poison.... i hope it made you feel good

plaetton: Religion, I have been told several times, even on this forum, is not an intellectual exercise.

Things of Faith do not require any form of intellectual rigour.

Trying, as we habitually do, to intellectually dissect religious doctrines or beliefs, always turn into an excercise in futility.
Faith in doctrine simply requires acceptance, whereas, intellectual arguments require conviction.
Acceptance and conviction are not the same thing.

Religion perpetuates itself simply by building thick walls of contrived mysteries around itself.
These walls of contrived mysteries then serve as barriers to keep out the probing torch lights of the intellect.

The trinity doctrine is one of such contrived mysteries. It is not supposed to be understood. We are supposed to look at it with great awe and accept it.
No questions required.

First of all, love the way you write (think I've mentioned that to you before) .

@your post, to summarize: So because it doesn't make sense to you it must be false. Got it!

^^

Hmmm, I am sure God gave us a Brain to reason

JeSoul: First of all, love the way you write (think I've mentioned that to you before) .

@your post, to summarize: So because it doesn't make sense to you it must be false. Got it!

Thanks for the compliments.

The fact that the trinity doctrine is as hotly debated among christians today as it was in the early days of the church, and, was perhaps the biggest source of schisms amongst the early church fathers is evidence that it had no scriptural underpinnings.

plaetton:
Thanks for the compliments.

The fact that the trinity doctrine is as hotly debated among christians today as it was in the early days of the church, and, was perhaps the biggest source of schisms amongst the early church fathers is evidence that it had no scriptural underpinnings.

Especially when those in disagreement where butchered by the 'godly' Trinitaran forces .e.g Michael Servetus

frosbel: ^^

Hmmm, I am sure God gave us a Brain to reason

Correction: Yahweh gave you a brain to accept and be filled with fear and the holy spirit.

If god gave us a brain to reason, as homage to god, we should be duty-bound and obligated to use it, even just once in a tiny while.

So what are you waiting for?
Start paying homage to your creator.

As a matter of fact, Yahweh is a jealous christian god. He may have given the christian a non reasoning brain to stop them from reasoning at all. The same god wouldn't let their grand parents(Adam and Eve) tap from the tree of life....very jealous god indeed. A good God would protect his creation all the time,instead he created evil to torment them(so they said)

The issue is not whether there is a trinity(three operations\facets or witnesses of god) but rather the understanding of the trinity. So I explain here:

The Father is the first, the creator and owner of the holy spirit by which all things are created and ruled. He is the father because he is the first to operate by the holy spirit.

The Holy spirit is the power or legal system by which the father operates and rules the universe(It is this spirit\mindset that the law tries to imitate in a "shadowy" manner). The holy spirit is a principle\value-system and a mindset that reveals god's understanding and judgment. So christ is the second person to operate by this power. It is actually the holy spirit that is referred to when we say "There is one true god", What it means is that there is one true principle of god. So a true worshiper of god is anybody who operates by this "ONE" true spirit of god.

The son is the second person to receive(or be birthed by) the holy spirit and by this "birth" becomes the SON of god. So in quality, size and number; he is equal to god the father but a different person. Just like a biological father sires a son by his genes, he and his son are one because it's the same gene-system working in them both but they have separate existences and personalities, but it is the holy spirit that makes them "ONE GOD".

Yes it is. The belief in one eternal God existing in three distinct, yet inseparable Persons. It doesn't have to make sense to you that's why its called faith. Even the bible agrees with me...

Hebrews11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Paschal007: Yes it is. The belief in one eternal God existing in three distinct, yet inseparable Persons. It doesn't have to make sense to you that's why its called faith. Even the bible agrees with me...

Hebrews11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

3 persons = 3 persons - correct

3 persons = 1 person - wrong


What do you take us for , fools

okeyxyz: The issue is not whether there is a trinity(three operations\facets or witnesses of god) but rather the understanding of the trinity. So I explain here:

The Father is the first, the creator and owner of the holy spirit by which all things are created and ruled. He is the father because he is the first to operate by the holy spirit.

The Holy spirit is the power or legal system by which the father operates and rules the universe(It is this spirit\mindset that the law tries to imitate in a "shadowy" manner). The holy spirit is a principle\value-system and a mindset that reveals god's understanding and judgment. So christ is the second person to operate by this power. It is actually the holy spirit that is referred to when we say "There is one true god", What it means is that there is one true principle of god. So a true worshiper of god is anybody who operates by this "ONE" true spirit of god.

By this explanation, the Holy Spirit is not a person, but a principle or force. This would mean that there is no such thing as the "Trinity" ab initio.

The son is the second person to receive(or be birthed by) the holy spirit and by this "birth" becomes the SON of god. So in quality, size and number; he is equal to god the father but a different person. Just like a biological father sires a son by his genes, he and his son are one because it's the same gene-system working in them both but they have separate existences and personalities, but it is the holy spirit that makes them "ONE GOD".

By this explanation, the son would not qualify as equal to God, and as such, there would be no such term as "God the Son" and as such, no such thing as the Trinity.

Pastor Kun:

Bros this trinity doctrine has been thrashed out severally on this forum and has been established not to be a true christian doctrine since it has no sound biblical basis but rather a catholic invention to suit some of their false doctrines. The question why bring up again this over flogged topic

I bring it up to question the basis on which Trinitarian Christianity can be called a Monotheistic faith.

It must perforce accede to being polytheistic: given that even polytheistic faiths still refer ultimately to one eternal source as the creator; but which is expressed in various gods - equal of course, to the hypostases, referred to in trinitarian dogma.

frosbel:


3 persons = 3 persons - correct

3 persons = 1 person - wrong


What do you take us for , fools

No not at all.

Just that bible said Jesus is the Son of God (Matt16:16) and there's no way he could be that unless he's divine...

Deep Sight:
By this explanation, the Holy Spirit is not a person, but a principle or force. This would mean that there is no such thing as the "Trinity" ab initio.

Yes, the holy spirit as we know it now is a principle, just like the laws of moses were a principle until the personification(Jesus) of it came.

By this explanation, the son would not qualify as equal to God, and as such, there would be no such term as "God the Son" and as such, no such thing as the Trinity.

And how does the son not qualify as equal to god?? If two people operate by the same laws and powers, have they not become equal?? Is a high-court judge in lagos not equal to a high-court judge in abuja? since they operate by same constitution and power? Of course, one may have become a judge before the other but the other has attained the same position and powers as the first one. That is why one cannot overrule any judgement passed by the other. Perhaps you'd care to explain your basis for equality...

Paschal007:

No not at all.

Just that bible said Jesus is the Son of God (Matt16:16) and there's no way he could be that unless he's divine...

But is being divine the same thing as being God?

What does it even mean to be divine, can you define and specifically qualify that?

Let us say that God is living. Let us also say that we are children of God, and as such, we are living. Does this mean that we are God? Under Christian worldview, we are not God. However under some pantheistic views, everything is God and God is everything, and as such we ourselves are microcosms of God and part of the infinite God.

In what way is Jesus a different type of "child" of God, than you and me are. I have an elder brother who is the first son of my father, but he's a man just like myself, i think?

okeyxyz:

Yes, the holy spirit as we know it now is a principle, just like the laws of moses were a principle until the personification(Jesus) of it came.

This still means that there is no such thing as the Trinity. At best you are advancing 2 forms of God - Father and Son, and the expression or power of both.

And how does the son not qualify as equal to god?? If two people operate by the same laws and powers, have they not become equal??

Being equal is not the same thing as being the same entity. Husband and Wife may be equal before the law, does not mean husband is wife or wife is husband. They could still have different opinions and desires, such as Jesus did from his Father in Gethsemane.

Is a high-court judge in lagos not equal to a high-court judge in abuja? since they operate by same constitution and power? Of course, one may have become a judge before the other but the other has attained the same position as the first one. That is why one cannot overrule any judgement passed by the other. Perhaps you'd care to explain your basis of equality...

Of course they may be equal, bu they are certainly not the same person, which is what the Trinity teaches. . . .

In fact, i will go one better: the minute you use the word "equal" you are clearly talking about two different entities. Because I cannot be equal to myself. I am myself, period. Once you say "equal" you are saying A = B, namely that two different entities are equal in power or nature. Now, once two entities are involved, you are clearly no longer a monotheistic faith!

Capisce?

Deep Sight:
This still means that there is no such thing as the Trinity. At best you are advancing 2 forms of God - Father and Son, and the expression or power of both.

Clearly you don't understand the issues of the trinity. Trinity simply means: Three witnesses. The principle or law is a witness that all must conform to, and whoever(father or son) wields the power of this law is also a witness. Therefore there are three. Father, son and holy-spirit(The law\constitution\principle).

Being equal is not the same thing as being the same entity. Husband and Wife may be equal before the law, does not mean husband is wife or wife is husband. They could still have different opinions and desires, such as Jesus did from his Father in Gethsemane.

Of course they may be equal, bu they are certainly not the same person, which is what the Trinity teaches. . . .

In fact, i will go one better: the minute you use the word "equal" you are clearly talking about two different entities. Because I cannot be equal to myself. I am myself, period. Once you say "equal" you are saying A = B, namely that two different entities are equal in power or nature. Now, once two entities are involved, you are clearly no longer a monotheistic faith!

Capisce?

And has anybody claimed they are the same entity? Did you not read my first post? Cos I remember stating the following:

okeyxyz: So in quality, size and number; he is equal to god the father but a different person. Just like a biological father sires a son by his genes, he and his son are one because it's the same gene-system working in them both but they have separate existences and personalities...

You seem to be arguing against your own imaginations here, because the claims you trying to debunk were never made in the first place.

And monotheism refers to the one true spirit(I also stated this in my first post), not the one true person.

Watching from sidelines..

okeyxyz:

Clearly you don't understand the issues of the trinity.

Clearly, I do not.

Trinity simply means: Three witnesses. The principle or law is a witness that all must conform to, and whoever(father or son) wields the power of this law is also a witness.

This has to be your own special re-mix of the doctrine because this is certainly not what the doctrine is at all. Remember that when we have a discussion regarding an ancient doctrine, recourse must be had to that which the doctrine is actually described as from origin; and not to that which you give as your own special re-mix or opinion.

You did not invent the trinity doctrine and I am not interested in arguing against any special individualized re-mix of the doctrine that you might have. I am interested in discussing the doctrine as extant from antiquity, thank you very much.

Now here is one of the oldest statements of definition of the doctrine -

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

Therefore there are three. Father, son and holy-spirit(The law\constitution\principle).

And this is a polytheist statement, son. You contradict yourself. [/quote]

And has anybody claimed they are the same entity?

If they are not the same entity, then clearly you are not monotheist. This is a cold hard fact cast in stone that you cannot argue against. Different entities mean more than one entity and that is not monotheism which refers to only ONE entity. This alone completely kills off your argument, friend.

Note also that your assertion that they are not the same entity flies against the Nicene Creed referred above.

And for emphasis, I repeat that that statement alone from you is a wholesale concession that your Christian faith is polytheistic.

You seem to be arguing against your own imaginations here, because the claims you trying to debunk were never made in the first place.

I am arguing against the trinity doctrine and not against your contradictory re-mix of it.

And monotheism refers to the one true spirit(I also stated this in my first post), not the one true person.

And once again you are inventing your own definition of things. This above is NOT the definition of monotheism, and if it were, then it would also apply to many versions of polytheism as they all espouse one true spirit behind all things. Indeed, it is a definition that renders monotheism meaningless as it can be argued that all things always have the same eternal spirit behind them; and as such, any form of polytheism would qualify as monotheistic. Even the Hindu faith would qualify as monotheistic under such an obtuse definition, as we would refer to Brahman as t he source of all things, the eternal. The truth, is that monotheism refers to ONE personage as God, period. Arguing otherwise is plain mendacious.

plaetton:
Thanks for the compliments.

The fact that the trinity doctrine is as hotly debated among christians today as it was in the early days of the church, and, was perhaps the biggest source of schisms amongst the early church fathers is evidence that it had no scriptural underpinnings.

You're right it is a source of constant tussling among some christians. The rest of us simply choose to apply the time-tested principle laid out in Romans 14. Everytime I see loggerhead -ing over the issue I always scratch my head. To me, whichever you believe is really inconsequential in the big picture, so why squibble?

and you're welcome on the compliments. I mean it, you're a gifted writer.

frosbel: ^^

Hmmm, I am sure God gave us a Brain to reason

Good. Now use that brain, and show where I remotely hinted otherwise in my post?