truthman2012: Buhkari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 558

Narrated By 'Aisha : Allah's Apostle heard a man reciting the Qur'an at night, and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget."

Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 562

Narrated By 'Aisha : The Prophet heard a reciter reciting, the Qur'an in the mosque at night. The Prophet said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such and-such Suras, which I missed!"

(Ibid., p. 112- citing Muslim Hudud 15 and also No.3421; Ibn Maja Hudud 9

Aisha relates that, “Ten verses were revealed concerning a foster relationship. These were annulled and replaced by another five verses.” Yet both the abrogated and abrogating verses are nowhere to be found. She also stated: “The verses of stoning and fostering were revealed, and the sheet of paper on which they were written was under my pillow. But then the Prophet died. Overwhelmed with grief, a beast came in and ate the sheet of paper.”

The above makes us to know that the prophet forgot many verses of the Scriptures only to be reminded later. The question therefore is: since he was subject to forgetting revelations, how many of such verses could have been forgotten before he could give them to the reciters? One would have thought he should be empowered not to forget any of the revelations to preserve them in their original state.

In compiling the Book, there is a source that says some verses were nowhere to be found and some eaten up by beasts.

How can it therefore be said that the revelations were preserved or the Book complete. Still glorious?

lanrexlan: Whenever the Prophet(pbuh)received a revelation,he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A.)– May Allah be pleased with him who would also memorize it.The Prophet(pbuh) would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)was an Ummi who could not read and write.Therefore, after receiving each revelation,he would repeat it to his Companions.They would write down the revelation,and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written.If there was any mistake,the Prophet(pbuh) would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel; step back for a moment. lets think about this together. the revelations stopped for a while before the prophet died. the last chapter and last verse were well known; each saying that Islam is complete and the means of success.

Your suggestion is that somehow, there is a portion of the Quran that no one knows [i hope you are not suggesting that the messenger [sa] didnt know this part and or he didnt deliver the message fully?]. if this is what you are saying, you only have to look at the Quran and the farewell address to know that both of them independently dispute you on it.

Allah disputes you on it because He says He will protect The Quran. And Allah is not negligent in His Responsibility.


if we look at the fact that it was written down, it means somebody else other than the Prophet [sa] knew about it. It is tradition that at least 4 scribes write down the revelation directly from the lips of the Prophet [sa]. The messenger [sa] must have used it in prayers upon the congregation [ra]. His cousin Ali [ra], his wives our mothers [ra] and scores of others [ra] in the community would have heard and committed it to memory. They were not the people of little faith that they cant take much information.

No sir. The sahabah [ra] were firm in faith and they were eager to absorb everything. And the first tat must be absorb was the Quran. Even now the tradition continues.


so to theorize that in the heat of the death of the Prophet [sa] the community was careless to expose the only copy and it was written on leaf that goat loves to eat is an unbelievable storyline. Have you seen the palace of a king when he dies with the amount of human traffic? no king is honored close to the prophet [sa]. so to imagine that this portion of the Quran was not memorized by anyone, yet it was left in a lowly place and in all of that traffic in a small room next to the mosque, the goat found itself time, space and opportunity to eat it. Think about it, cleanvessel. It is absolutely impossible. we have to use our brain in matters of faith and religion. blind faith is not good enough in spirituality.


@truthman2012; the prophet [sa] saying he missed such and such is to mean, he missed the recitation of it from the last time he recited [be it a week more or less time ago]. it does not mean he forgot it an just hearing it reminded him of it as something he had forgotten. The messenger [sa] was commanded to make night prayers. Surah Taha was revealed to limit not spending all night so much so that Allah reduced it to more or less 1/2 of the night. how much recitation did he cover in it, when it was reduced to say 1/2 of the night? a lot because in ramadhan, the last 10 nights, the community will cover the whole Quran apart from the [ashamu; lol] one said after Isha.


Even somebody like me love a particular chapter and when i hear it, in a particular way, it is i am hearing it anew. Yet, i may just have read it days earlier. Every muslim loves to hear another person recite Quran. To imagine that The Prophet [sa] forgot a part of Quran until he heard somebody recited it is to suggest there is no God. you're not an atheist, truthman2012?

Surah Fatir [35], verse 43; [Due to] arrogance in the land and plotting of evil; but the evil plot does not encompass except its own people. Then do they await except the way of the former peoples? But you will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration.

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel; good day, unless in far east or down under time zones. listen, i appreciate your struggle to put forward your viewpoint. you however seem to be get it all wrong in your effort to argue against islam. you would have been better off with the bible than can be easily picked apart and deconstructed. i remember a person asking that i show him the uncorrupted bible since muslims say what is on the market is corrupt. i have realized by this unintelligent statement of that person he is not a thinker at all. if he were a thinker, all he had to do was to ponder on the agreed statement of the Quran. he can therefore dispute it by gathering as many bible as possible including many edition of same version. he can from hundreds of them pick out the very one he thinks is uncorrupted.

if he is sure he has picked the uncorrupted bible, all he needs to do is take his choice to other christian groups which he does not belong to and they will to him in short order that what he thought was uncorrupted is actually corrupted in their eyes. it will not be because of interpretation differences. but textual differences to include verses, chapters and books. the catholic will not agree with the protestants about the same bible. the coptic, ethiopian, greek, russian orthodox groups have different bibles and each is different from the others and different from the protestants and that of the catholic. the jehovah witness, 7th day adventist, mormon, each has a completely different bible. rsv that was published in 1952 is completely different from what was published in 1971. adding an subtracting does not give impression of uncorrupted. if you say to me there is no man in a group of 50 males, all i have to do is to find out if any of them is at least a teenager. if i find out none of them is old enough to be called a teenage and none has reached puberty, you are correct because i couldnt prove that your statement is incorrect. this is the story of the bible.


the reverse is the story of the Quran. no muslim community disagrees with the Quran we have in circulation. everyone is in agreement that it is the authentic of what is authentic.


now as to the 'forgetting' of the prophet [sa], as it is the theme of your accusation, i beg to differ that this is impossible on many levels; while the enemies of islam are erroneously arguing using unreasonable tactics and opinions, Allah opens the mind of muslims to pickup good defenses that are true. the fact that Angel Gabriel is the angel of revelations, he was constantly in the life of the prophet [sa] as Allah Permitted. so every year, during the month of ramadhan, the Angel and the prophet [sa] will recite to each other the "Quran". so if Muhammad [sa] were to have "forgotten" anything, at least, you have to agree that the Angel would have been forgetful like human and he would have to correct Muhammad [sa] to bring him up to the current level of 100% remembrance and 0% forgetfulness. Yes?


this is not end of evidence of perfect preservation involving Angel Gabriel. You will notice that many enemies of islam proposed 'satanic verses'. the answer they themselves gave is that Angel Gabriel came down right away to abrogate [while all 'other' abrogated verses are still on the pages of the Quran [to me the satanic verse is a hoax]] it. it is the abrogation that is the reason it is not on the pages of the Quran [making it not following the rule of abrogation in the Quran while abrogation [of adoption, alcohol consumption, talking in salah, etc] did keep the verses relating to them still on the pages of the Quran].


In the last ramadhan of the prophet [sa] Angel Gabriel and he recited the Quran to each other as in the previous years. But this time it was double the amount, to mean each of the two noble souls heard it 4 times [2 times from himself and 2 times from the listener [as]]. I doubt if all of these happened Muhammad [sa] will get out of the occasion forgetting any part of the Quran. It was still fresh in his memory after almost 23 years that the angel squeezed him hard, getting his attention. No student forgets what is taught him that way.


so i dont buy your Muhammad [sa] 'forgot' because in his heart the Quran is etched in like when something is chiseled in stone.



if you thing you have any evidence against Islam, specifically the Quran, my email is same id at yahoo dot com. I wanna read your evidence and write you on it privately. unless if you want me to post it here which i will post your original allegations and my responses against it. I am certain you will run to sam shammon or david woods. they and pastor joseph and dr. white, none of them is particularly bright. david woods has banned me on his site just in the same way hes banned many a muslims.

for your information, ayat is verse. Allah promises protection upon of the Quran and not the Taurah, Injil as you lamented. The Lord does not change in His Way [He is The Only One to worship] and does not alter His Way [His Rule is everlasting] nor compromise on anything to satisfy anyone. This is evident in the quoted Quranic Verse below. On the pages of the Bible, in spite of its corruption [declares God Almighty] i can see that Only God is to worship and His way way is flawless [Jesus you worship worshiped his Lord. It is this his Lord that I worship]. It is your disobedience that has not allowed you to see that if you were to imitate Jesus, you will pick up the Quran and adopt Islamfor your safety.

cleanvessel:

I don't want to believe what you said is the truth. Firstly, some portions of the revelation were eaten up by beasts,how is the quran preserved? Some were nowhere to be found, how is the quran preserved? You have not addressed the two issues.

Thirdly,since the prophet could forget revelations,how are you so sure the ones he eventually dictated for writing down or to his companions were correct and complete?

lanrexlan: If you don't believe what I wrote then no need engaging you again.I told you how the Quran was preserved and you said you don't believe it.There is a group of men the prophet(pbuh)chose and whenever he received a revelation,he memorized it and Allah said that he caused the prophet(pbuh)to memorize by heart,after the memorizing it,he recite to the scribes and they too memorize and then write it down.

The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion,as and when it was required.The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation.The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah(swt) through archangel Jibraeel.Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions,the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed,including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel.During the last Ramadhaan,before the demise of the Prophet,the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime,both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions......Peace

cleanvessel:

Are you saying the whole of the quran was written during Muhammad's time? That is not true if that is what you said.

Your explanations did not cover the areas I'm talking about. The fact that Muhammad was not immune from forgetting,there is the possibility that he could have forgotten part of what he received before he dictated them to the writers or his companions.

When the quran was being compiled as a book, it suffered many things that one could not reasonable vouch for its authenticity as true and complete revelations of allah:

Firstly, Aisha said some portions were eaten up by beast and it could not be found anywhere again. Those ones were lost forever as they are not in the quran.

Secondly,Zuhri reports, 'We have heard that many Qur'an passages were revealed but that those who had memorised them fell in the Yemama fighting. Those passages had not been written down, and following the deaths of those who knew them, were no longer known;[b][/b] nor had Abu Bakr, nor `Umar nor `Uthman as yet collected the texts of the Qur'an. (Burton: The published text ought here to be amended: for "fa lamma jama`Abu Bakr", I propose to read: "wa lamma yajma` Abu Bakr", to follow: "lam yuktab".)

Those lost passages were not to be found with anyone after the deaths of those who had memorised them. This, I understand, was one of the considerations which impelled them to pursue the Qur'an during the reign of Abu Bakr, committing it to sheets for fear that there should perish in further theatres of war men who bore much of the Qur'an which they would take to the grave with them on their fall, and which, with their passing, would not be found with any other.(John Burton, The Collection of the Qur'an, pp. 126-127, Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, Kitab al-Masahif’, ed. A. Jeffery, Cairo, 1936/1355, p. 23

There were differences in the reciters' recitations. "We were sitting in the mosque and `Abdullah was reciting the Qur'an when Hudaifa came in and said, 'The reading of ibn Umm `Abd! [ie. `Abdullah] The reading of Abu Musa! By God! if I am spared to reach the Commander of the Faithful, I will recommend THAT HE IMPOSE A SINGLE QUR’AN READING!'
‘Abdullah became very angry and spoke sharply to Hudaifa who fell silent." (Burton, p. 142, Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, "K. al Masahif", ed. A. Jeffery, Cairo, 1936/1355, p. 13

As you can see there were confusions among them as to which of the recitations were correct and there was need to impose ONE.How are we to be sure the one imposed is the correct and Muhammad was no more around? Under this kind of a situation,how can you vouch for the CORRECTNESS of the content of the quran. So many portions were lost due to men who fell in war and could not be recovered making the quran contents short of many revelations from allah.There are so many more but let me limit it to this for now.

lanrexlan: Yes,it was written on leathers and other materials,memorized by many people.What Abu Bakr(ra) did was that he complied the Quran on a single material.

I think you saw how I showed you that Allah caused the prophet(pbuh)to memorize by heart and every ramadan,the archangel Gabriel will visit the prophet(pbuh) and revise the Quran with him.

I haven't see the hadith that says a beast eat up the revelation,I can't locate the hadith he quoted.


Is this an hadith,Seraah or Tafseer? No authoritative backings.

Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet.However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes. All the verses revealed to the Prophet may not have been heard personally by all the Companions.There were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions.This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur’an during the period of the third Caliph Usman (r.a.). Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an,which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsha (may Allah be pleased with her),the Prophet’s wife.Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it,led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centres of Muslims.There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them.These might have been incomplete and with mistakes.Usman (r.a.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an.Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day,one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul,Turkey.

The one imposed is the correct one the prophet(pbuh)used because it's the script received from the scribes that wrote the Quran down......Peace


N B,just one more rebuttal from you.

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel; bia my brother. just imagine for a moment that no one knew the whole Quran by heart than those who died in the battle of Yemmama. I said imagine for a moment. then imagine what the leader of the muslim world {AbuBakr [ra]] would do before sending all into the battle. Lets put you in the position of the leadership.

From Quran, we read that when you are in war you should divide yourselves into categories; those who are going to fight will be young and probably have no responsibility that will keep them back, like aged mother, etc.


The old men and women in general and children are not allowed in combats.

Further, not all the young and strong will fight because you need some of them still in the community.

Further, further, you need scholarship [some of them] to rehabilitate the returned warriors into the community, including relearning if not the whole manner[s] of Islam, part of it which will include recitation of Quran.

so it is a very weak argument to say when the 100 went to war there was no 100% Quran left behind. So when they perished what left is less than 100%. that is a bogus opinion and empty wishful thinking from the camps of disbelievers. I can off hand give you more than 2 or more people who memorized the entire Quran and not only survived the time of Abu Bakr [ra], but the time of Umar bin Khattab [ra] that followed and were there when Uthman bin Affan [ra] made 5 copies from the first Quran that was a complete single book made by Abu Bakr as a result of the Yemmama incident.


Its ridiculous to continue to pedal this type of misinformation. types and styles of recitations has nothing to do with preservation but a mercy on Muslims because of our differences in pronunciation.



@nzuchu2; An angel in Islam is being that God created from Light and the Angel is ever in obedience to his Lord. So the messenger of the messenger of God is messenger of God.


even the christians believe angel are true to God and God send him on errand as He Purposes. people with good heart and beautiful people the christians say these are angels in honoring them. it is when you guys are arguing against islma that you bring your deception of evil angels. your falling angels are of your own made up ideas. Its not from God because angels are obedient beings and do not revolt against God.

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel; The verse in Surah Fatir is encouragement to the muslims that those who are not in Islam are in manifest error.

16/101 and 2/106 talk about abrogation; for example initially people can talk in salah. after faith had increased n their hearts, they were told that talking is forbidden.

in fact when you are listening to Quran, you should be quite even outside salaah.

i guess you didn't get that memo, yet you are arguing about it? the verse of not initially forbidden alcohol is in the Quran. so is the verse that forbids it with reason.

get with it. not drinking [verse] is better you may not get wasted [verse]. both are still in the Quran.

cleanvessel:
Summary

1. The quran was not in book form during Muhammad's life time.

2. The compilations into book form were made from not only the written pieces during Muhammad's time but also from the memorizers' conflicting recitations,in which there was no way they could could confirm which of them were correct and yet they put them in the quran, guessing.

AS a result of the above,the quran could not be said to be complete or correct revelations of Allah and therefore not preserved.

cleanvessel:
Summary

1. The quran was not in book form during Muhammad's life time.

lanrexlan: Yes,it was written on leathers and other materials,memorized by many people.What Abu Bakr (ra) did was that he complied the Quran on a single material.

2. The compilations into book form were made from not only the written pieces during Muhammad's time but also from the memorizers' conflicting recitations,in which there was no way they could could confirm which of them were correct and yet they put them in the quran, guessing.

AS a result of the above,the quran could not be said to be complete or correct revelations of Allah and therefore not preserved.

lanrexlan: Are you playing blind game or your rebuttal clouded your thinking? See what I wrote


I was right about non-muslims on this section,it's what on your mind that you think about,so muslims opinion don't matter.
Oops,whose recitation would be the correct one? His closed companions that were among the scribes that wrote the Quran lived with the prophet(pbuh)for 23 years and they won't be able to give the people the correct recitation of the prophet(pbuh)? The prophet(pbuh) always lead them in solat and gives khutbah,and his companions won't know how he recite the Quran? Think brother,read my explanations with an open mind.

Surah Al-Hijr 15;9-''It's Allah that sent down the Quran and he will surely guard it''.

Allah has promised to guard and preserve the Quran.....Peace

[b]N B[/b]You have wasted your rebuttal,see you next time.

cleanvessel:


You want to run away from the truth. Bukhari said there were differences in memorizers' recitations. You are saying it is not true without any proof. Your defence is lame. Very lame indeed.

Allah promised to protect the quran but the facts on ground prove that it was not protected. Even the verse that says allah would protect his word could be the mistake of the contradicting reciters.

The fact remains the QURAN IS A GUESS-WORK as there was noway they could confirm what they picked from the different and conflicting recitations were the true and correct ones. They could not confirm from allah and Muhammad had died, so they had no choice but to guess.