How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? - Religion (2) - Nairaland
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? (3040 Views)
Why Was The Book Of Enoch Removed From The Bible? / What Is The Book Of Enoch And Should It Be In The Bible? / The Book Of Enoch / Jesus Quoted It And So Did Apostles (2) (3) (4)
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by FOLYKAZE(m): 4:12pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
chukwudi44: Do folykaze needs this whole epistle? Nope. Was there no scripture and document used in theological teaching before the compilation into one volume of book called bible? What were those document or scriptures called before it compilations? Can you please quote the deut verse jude was quoting from. I have posted the verse jude was quoting from as he made reference clearly to Enoch from the book of Enoch. Were the coptic those who insert jude 14-15 to the bible of today? Pls answer that. Thanks man |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by truthislight: 4:50pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
Pastor AIO: I think Chukwudi hit the nail on the head. There are extrabiblical texts that can also be considered scripture. This will be hard for the bible worshippers who take the bible as a kind of Constitution of Christianity. At least you will atleast show us their writers that for a start they are Jews : "You worship what you do not know, we worship what we know, salvation originate with the Jews. " (John 4:22)...... ............. ^ maybe you can tell us what Jesus did not know. And it is good to note that the OT we have were written by defined people: 1. Annointed kings of Israel. 2. Prophets of Yahweh in Israel. 3. Levites (priestly class) in israel. Even the teaching of the NT is written by Israelites/jews. And they where apostles of christ. At least start by telling us the writers of this other books you talk about lets align them with the class of bible writers and see if they fall in line. Does salvation originate from other nations apart from the Jews ? *years later, i hope the work/writings of Chris Oyakhilome will not make it into the bible sef at this rate* |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by truthislight: 4:58pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
Pastor AIO: And Jesus said to them, "Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old." Na wao ! At this rate you will accept just anything as scriptures. Even without proof of annoiing. Smh |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by Nobody: 5:36pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
FOLYKAZE: Bros th FOLYKAZE:e FOLYKAZE:re FOLYKAZE: Bros there was no established canon until the council of jamnia 90CE(for the jews) and the synod of hippo(for the christians).Prior to ths individual church fathers have set out canons which they think should be in the canon but no defintive council or meeting took place top look on this issue before the aforementioned councils. we noe know that several other scriptural writings might have existed before the these canons were canonised but the fact remains that there is no record of any canon passed down eiother by the jewish prophets or the apostles as the scriptures had existed as seperate writings and not one as one unit which we today call the bible |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by Nobody: 5:40pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
truthislight: brs stop quoting scriptures you do not even know anything about their origin.Your arguments are just too puerile and illogical? what biblical proof do you have to show that the gospel above what written by John.I hope you get my point,I am not saying that book was not written by John rather that there is no biblical evidence to proof that John wrote that gospel. So many books of the bible are anonymous,their authours were only sourced through sacred apostolic tradition |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by Samunique(m): 5:43pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
FOLYKAZE: in Jude 14-15 Jude quote from Apocryphal book, Enoch to support his argument. Why then is the Book of Enoch not included in the Biblical canon?If u care to listen bros! Christian faith is not an organised human religion, neither is the bible a collection of human wisdom or idiology, the very Overseer of christian faith is d Holy spirit. The Holy spirit inspired Jude to repeat the prophecy of Enoch and u shld also knw that Moses also prophesied the same thing "Deut 33:2" this tells u the continuty of the bible and Spirit the inspired it. Meanwhile, the Man "Enoch" Jude is talking about here is a well known biblical "Figure" he's d man who walked with God, he was translated and never tasted death. Gen 5:18-24. As for the book of enoch u a talking about, ther is no any concrete evidence that this book was written by this great man of God called Enoch, that's why it is called apocryphal. Moreover, we have several books written like that, which are fraudlently named after these great biblical "Figures" these are the books the church Fathers deemed unacceptable and separated them from d real word of God, they are apocryphals/ none canonical. For instance, u must av heard about d gospel of banabas, gospel of Jesus' infancy, which is called the gospel of Thomas. I can continue naming them, but one thing i want u to knw is that, Apostle Jude never quoted from apocryphal but the Holy Spirit was repeating what He once spoken through the mouth of his servant "Enoch" u need to read the bible from Genesis to Revelation and see how wonerful accurate, sequential the bible is. Diffrent people of diffrent generations, lived in diffrent places at diffrent times and yet, they carried on with the same message without spiritual contradictions! That's what makes d Bible unique from other religious books who have only one Writter/Bringer whose source can not be ascertained but based on assumptions or in most cases superstitions. For out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every truth will be estabilshed, that is d Bible for u! The oldest but ever new Book! |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by Nobody: 5:45pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
The Development of the Canon of the New Testament Home | Authorities | Writings | Table | Lists | Places | Heresies | Miscellaneous | for more Information -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Early Christian Authorities Ignatius of Antioch Polycarp of Smyrna Marcion Valentinus Justin Martyr Irenaeus of Lyons Clement of Alexandria Tertullian of Carthage Muratorian Canon Origen Eusebius of Caesarea codex Sinaiticus Athanasius of Alexandria Didymus the Blind Peshitta Vulgate Irenaeus of Lyons (b. 120/140 Asia Minor - d. 200/203 CE) This image is taken from the Encyclopædia Britannica. A larger version is available. Relatively little is known of the life of Irenaeus. As a boy he had, as he delighted to point out, listened to the sermons of the great bishop and martyr, Polycarp of Smyrna, who was regarded as a disciple of the apostles themselves. Here he came to know, 'the genuine unadulterated gospel', to which he remained faithful throughout his life. Perhaps he also accompanied Polycarp on his journey to Rome in connection with the controversy over the date of celebrating Easter (154 CE). Later he went as a missionary to southern Gaul, where he became a presbyter at Lyons. A Catholic Encyclopedia article is online at St. Irenaeus. Irenaeus was absent from the city when the persecution there reached its zenith. It seems that he had been sent to Rome by the Gallican churches in order to confer with Pope Eleutherus, perhaps as a mediator in the Montanist disputes. Evidently Irenaeus stayed in Rome for just a short time, and soon after the end of the persecution we find him again in Lyons as the successor to Bishop Pothinus (178). When and how he died is unknown to us. Jerome and others state that he died as a martyr in the persecution under the Emperor Septimus Severus (202), but there is no certainty about this tradition. In short, we know Irenaeus almost solely from his writings, and these have not been preserved in their entirety. These writings are: Writing Remarks English Translation(s) The Refutation and Overthrow of Knowledge Falsely So Called (also called Adversus Haereses) original Greek fragments and only a Latin translation in its entirety (written ~180 CE) [Richardson] , Christian Classics Ethereal Library , Noncanonical Homepage The Demonstration of the Apostolic Teaching an Armenian translation discovered in 1907. This book was probably intended for the instruction of young candidates for Baptism. [Irenaeus] The era in which Irenaeus lived was a time of expansion and inner tensions in the church. In many cases Irenaeus acted as mediator between various contending factions. The churches of Asia Minor (where he was probably born) continued to celebrate Easter on the same date (the 14th of Nisan) as the Jews celebrated Passover, whereas the Roman Church maintained that Easter should always be celebrated on a Sunday (the day of the Resurrection). Mediating between the parties, Irenaeus stated that differences in external factors, such as dates of festivals, need not be so serious as to destroy church unity. Irenaeus adopted a totally negative and unresponsive attitude, however, toward Marcion, a schismatic leader in Rome, and toward the Valentinians, a fashionable intellectual Gnostic movement in the rapidly expanding church that espoused dualism. Because Gnosticism was overcome by the Orthodox Church, Gnostic writings were largely obliterated. In reconstructing Gnostic doctrines, therefore, modern scholars relied to a great extent on the writings of Irenaeus, who summarized the Gnostic views before attacking them. After the discovery of the Gnostic library near Nag Hammadi in Egypt in the 1940s (see Robinson), respect for Irenaeus increased. He was proved to have been extremely precise in his report of the doctrines he rejected. The oldest lists of bishops also were countermeasures against the Gnostics, who said that they possessed a secret oral tradition from Jesus himself. Against such statements Irenaeus maintains that the bishops in different cities are known as far back as the Apostles - and none of them was a Gnostic - and that the bishops provided the only safe guide to the interpretation of the Scriptures. With these lists of bishops the later doctrine of "the apostolic succession" of the bishops could be linked. From these 2 sources we can appreciate the importance of Irenaeus as the first great Catholic theologian, the champion of orthodoxy against Gnostic heresy, and a mediating link between Eastern and Western churches. Regarding the New Testament canon, one finds in Adversus Haereses quotations from all the books of the New Testament with the exception of: Philemon, II Peter, III John, and Jude He also considered these writings, not in the present New Testament, of value: I Clement , Shepherd of Hermas However, the following he considered heretical: Gospel of Truth For a summary of his opinions see the Cross Reference Table. Irenaeus was especially insistent that there are exactly 4 Gospels, and used numerological arguments surrounding the number 4, such as the 4 covenants, for support. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and the Gospel according to Matthew Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses: Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these. ..... Matthew proclaims his human birth, saying, 'The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham,' and, 'The birth of Jesus Christ was in this manner' . for this Gospel is manlike, and so through the whole Gospel [Christ] appears as a man of a humble mind, and gentle. (3.11.  According to the lists in [Hoh], Irenaeus, in Adversus Haereses, quotes 626 times from all 4 Gospels. Irenaeus was especially insistent that there are exactly 4 Gospels. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and the Gospel according to Mark Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses: Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these. ..... But Mark takes his beginning from the prophetic Spirit who comes on men from on high saying, 'The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, as it is written in Isaiah the prophet,' showing a winged image of the gospel. Therefore he made his message compendious and summary, for such is the prophetic character. (3.11. According to the lists in [Hoh], Irenaeus, in Adversus Haereses, quotes 626 times from all 4 Gospels. Irenaeus was especially insistent that there are exactly 4 Gospels. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and the Gospel according to Luke Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses: Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these. ..... That according to Luke, as having a priestly character, began with the priest Zacharias offering incense to God. For the fatted calf was already being prepared which was to be sacrificed for the finding of the younger son. (3.11. [c.f. Luke 15:23] According to the lists in [Hoh], Irenaeus, in Adversus Haereses, quotes 626 times from all 4 Gospels. Irenaeus was especially insistent that there are exactly 4 Gospels. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and the Gospel according to John Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses: Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these. For that according to John expounds his princely and mighty and glorious birth from the Father, saying, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,' and, 'All things were made by him, and without him nothing was nothing made' . Therefore this Gospel is deserving of all confidence, for such indeed is his person. (3.11. According to the lists in [Hoh], Irenaeus, in Adversus Haereses, quotes 626 times from all 4 Gospels. Irenaeus was especially insistent that there are exactly 4 Gospels. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and Acts According to the lists in [Hoh], Irenaeus, in Adversus Haereses, quotes from Acts 54 times. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and the Pauline Epistles According to [Grant] p. 154, the frequencies of quotations and allusions to the Pauline Epistles in Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses are given by: Pauline Epistle quotations/ allusions Romans 84 I Corinthians 102 II Corinthians 18 Galatians 27 Ephesians 37 Philippians 13 Colossians 18 I Thessalonians 2 II Thessalonians 9 I Timothy 5 II Timothy 5 Titus 4 Philemon 0 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and Hebrews According to [Grant] p. 154, there seems to be an allusion to Hebrews 1:3 in Adversus Haereses 2.30.9. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and James According to [Grant] p. 155, there are 2 possible allusions to James in Adversus Haereses. They are in 4.16.2 (James 2:23) and 5.1.1 (James 1:18,22). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and I Peter According to [Grant] p. 155, there is an allusion to I Peter in Adversus Haereses 5.7.2. This allusion and more might be listed in [Hoh]. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and I-II John According to [Grant] p. 155, Irenaeus cites I John in Adversus Haereses, 3.16.5 and, three paragraphs later, refers back to the same epistle but quotes from II John. He may have regarded I-II John as one letter; perhaps he was quoting from memory. More allusions might be listed in [Hoh]. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and the Revelation of John According to the lists in [Hoh], Irenaeus, in Adversus Haereses, quotes 29 times from the Revelation of John. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and the Four Gospels Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses: The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is spread over all the earth, and the pillar and foundation of the Church is the gospel, and the Spirit of life, it fittingly has four pillars, everywhere breathing out incorruption and revivifying men. From this it is clear that the Word, the artificer of all things, being manifested to men gave us the gospel, fourfold in form but held together by one Spirit. As David said, when asking for his coming, 'O sitter upon the cherubim, show yourself '. For the cherubim have four faces, and their faces are images of the activity of the Son of God. For the first living creature, it says, was like a lion, signifying his active and princely and royal character; the second was like an ox, showing his sacrificial and priestly order; the third had the face of a man, indicating very clearly his coming in human guise; and the fourth was like a flying eagle, making plain the giving of the Spirit who broods over the Church. Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these. (3.11. The 4 creatures are allusions to Revelations 4:7-8. Irenaeus goes on to compare them to the Gospels according to John, Luke, Matthew, and Mark respectively. The Davidic quotation is from Psalms 80:1. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and the Four Covenants Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses: ... As is the activity of the Son of God, such is the form of the living creatures; and as is the form of the living creatures, such is also the character of the Gospel. For the living creatures were quadriform, and the gospel and the activity of the Lord is fourfold. Therefore four general covenants were given to mankind: one was that of Noah's deluge, by the [rain] bow; the second was Abraham's, by the sign of circumcision; the third was the giving of the Law by Moses; and the fourth is that of the Gospel, through our Lord Jesus Christ. (3.11. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and I Clement Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses: When the blessed apostles had founded and built up the Church, they handed over the ministry of the episcopate to Linus. Paul mentions this Linus in his Epistles to Timothy. Anencletus succeeded him. After him Clement received the lot of the episcopate in the third place from the apostles. He had seen the apostles and associated with them, and still had their preaching sounding in his ears and their tradition before his eyes -- and not he alone, for there were many still left in his time who had been taught by the apostles. In this Clement's time no small discord arose among the brethren in Corinth, and the Church in Rome sent a very powerful letter to the Corinthians, leading them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which they had recently received from the apostles, which declared one almighty God, maker of heaven and earth and fashioner of man, who brought out the people from the land of Egypt; who spoke with Moses; who ordained the Law and sent the Prophets; and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. Those who care to can learn from this Writing that he was proclaimed by the churches as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and so understand the apostolic tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is older than those present false teachers who make up lies about another God above the Demiurge and maker of all things that are. (3.3.3) The last sentence makes it clear that Irenaeus regards I Clement as authoritative. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and the Shepherd of Hermas Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses: Truly, then, the Scripture declared, which says, "First of all believe that there is one God, who has established all things, and completed them, and having caused that from what had no being, all things should come into existence. He who contains all things, and is Himself contained by no one." [Book 2, First Commandment, of the Shepherd of Hermas]. Rightly also has Malachi said among the prophets: "Is it not one God who hath established us? Have we not all one Father?" (4.20.2. of Adversus Haereses) This passage, where Irenaeus calls the Shepherd of Hermas 'scripture', is mentioned by [Grant] p. 153 and [Metzger] p. 155. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and the Gospel of Truth Irenaeus reports in Adversus Haereses: But the followers of Valentinus, putting away all fear, bring forward their own compositions and boast that they have more Gospels than really exist. Indeed their audacity has gone so far that they entitle their recent composition the Gospel of Truth, though it agrees in nothing with the Gospels of the apostles, and so no Gospel of theirs is free from blasphemy. For if what they produce is the Gospel of Truth, and is different from those which the apostles handed down to us, those who care to can learn how it can be show from the Scriptures themselves that [then] what is handed down from the apostles is not the Gospel of Truth. (3.11.9) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus and the Gospel of Judas Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses: Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas. (1.31.1). http://www.ntcanon.org/Irenaeus.shtml |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by Tgirl4real(f): 6:17pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
Enigma: Lots of hot air over something which is not a problem for a Christian theologically or otherwise. I think you captured the whole essence of the thread. May be Christians can help him out.  |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by truthislight: 6:33pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
chukwudi44: Answering you is a wasted effort. Am even surprise that even the words of Jesus is irritating you this days. Smh. |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by Nobody: 7:05pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
truthislight: Bros what do you know about that gospel other than what the catholic church told you it was written by John? Am sure if the book of Enoch was canonised and the gospel of John was not you would have been the first to quote the 'inspired' Enoch while casting aspersion on the gospel of John 1 Like |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by Nobody: 7:06pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
truthislight: Bros what do you know about that gospel other than what the catholic church told you it was written by John?Did the authour of that gospel or any other canonised gospel identify their selves? Am sure if the book of Enoch was canonised and the gospel of John was not you would have been the first to quote the 'inspired' Enoch while casting aspersion on the gospel of John |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by Nobody: 7:23pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
Some of the non-biblical scriptures referenced in the bible. The Book of the Wars of Yahweh Numbers 21:14 The Book of Jashar Joshua 10:12-13; 2 Samuel 1:19-27 The Chronicles of the Kings of Judah 1 Kings 14:29; et al. The Chronicles of the Kings of Israel 1 Kings 14:19; et al. The Acts of Solomon 1 Kings 11:41 Book of the Kings of Israel 1 Chronicles 9:1-2; 2 Chronicles 20:34 Book of the Kings of Judah and Israel 2 Chronicles 16:11; et al. Book of the Kings of Israel and Judah 2 Chronicles 27:7; et al. Acts of the Kings of Israel 2 Chronicles 33:18 Acts of Samuel the Seer 1 Chronicles 29:29 Acts of Gad the Seer 1 Chronicles 29:29 Acts of Nathan the Prophet 1 Chronicles 29:29 History of Nathan the Prophet 2 Chronicles 9:29 Prophesy of Ahijah the Shilonite 2 Chronicles 9:29 Visions of Iddo the Seer 2 Chronicles 9:29 Acts of Shemaiah the Prophet and Iddo the Seer 2 Chronicles 12:15 Acts of Jehu Son of Hanani 2 Chronicles 20:34 Acts of the Seers 2 Chronicles 33:19 Midrash of the Prophet Iddo 2 Chronicles 13:22 Midrash on the Book of Kings 2 Chronicles 24:2 Book of the Covenant Exodus 24:7; et al. The Chronicles of the Kings of Media and Persia Esther 10:2 Laments for Josiah 2 Chronicles 35:25 Chronicles of King David 1 Chronicles 27:24 Paul’s letter to the Laodiceans Colossians 4:16 Paul’s previous Corinthian letter 1 Corinthians 5:9 |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by FOLYKAZE(m): 10:52pm On Aug 27, 2013 |
chukwudi44: The bold part put some lights to my question. We both agree that some writings and book had exist before the canon. This books were used and mostly consider inspired Can I ask the reason this books and writings were not cannonized despite the fact that they were used and quoted among the prophets, apostles and jewish scholars? Even the fathers, priest, bishops and the church use this writtings as inspired word of God for teaching until it was not included in canon. Could this mean church defines what christian faith covers and act like God? Could this mean so called God doesn't get involve with christianity and the faith is church sham? |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by FOLYKAZE(m): 8:23am On Aug 28, 2013 |
Enigma: Lots of hot air over something which is not a problem for a Christian theologically or otherwise. How can this be a problem when most christians are clean cut hypocrites. You only accept what the church added, subtracted and their doctrine outcome as your faith. And to give the lie to Roman Catholic and others' falsehoods about the canon of the Bible, the Ethiopian Church includes the Book of Enoch in its Bible and canon. So can one then, strictly, say that the Book of Enoch is not part of "the Bible" or is not part of "the Biblical Canon"! Bro.....the question is not for Ethiopian or Coptic christian. Why is the book of Enoch not included in your 66 protestant bible despite it been quote by Jude. In any event, the passages from the book of Enoch are themselves taken from Deuteronomy and elsewhere in the traditional Old Testament. Oh my God.....where did you get this from? There are other matters about the book but increasingly it is not really worthwhile discussing these things in an atmosphere of such ignorance, lack of wisdom and pandering to people with an agenda. Typical christian way of ignoring question for silly attack. It worth something discussing with me. Christianity.....scripture inspiration are all church scam. Beat that |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by Nobody: 12:49pm On Aug 28, 2013 |
FOLYKAZE: i already told you that these books were not canonised because they were not included in the septuagint which had been the defacto xtian old testament prior to the compilation of the bible.Whatever criteria that was used for the selection of the books of the septuagint we dont know.I think the chch fathers just wanted to play safe by not including scriptures that were been disputed 1 Like |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by FOLYKAZE(m): 3:21pm On Aug 28, 2013 |
chukwudi44: The church fathers should be agreed as people who form christianity then. Thanks |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by FOLYKAZE(m): 3:49pm On Aug 28, 2013 |
Samunique: If u care to listen bros! Christian faith is not an organised human religion, neither is the bible a collection of human wisdom or idiology, the very Overseer of christian faith is d Holy spirit. The Holy spirit inspired Jude to repeat the prophecy of Enoch and u shld also knw that Moses also prophesied the same thing "Deut 33:2" this tells u the continuty of the bible and Spirit the inspired it. Meanwhile, the Man "Enoch" Jude is talking about here is a well known biblical "Figure" he's d man who walked with God, he was translated and never tasted death. Gen 5:18-24. As for the book of enoch u a talking about, ther is no any concrete evidence that this book was written by this great man of God called Enoch, that's why it is called apocryphal. Moreover, we have several books written like that, which are fraudlently named after these great biblical "Figures" these are the books the church Fathers deemed unacceptable and separated them from d real word of God, they are apocryphals/ none canonical. For instance, u must av heard about d gospel of banabas, gospel of Jesus' infancy, which is called the gospel of Thomas. I can continue naming them, but one thing i want u to knw is that, Apostle Jude never quoted from apocryphal but the Holy Spirit was repeating what He once spoken through the mouth of his servant "Enoch" u need to read the bible from Genesis to Revelation and see how wonerful accurate, sequential the bible is. Diffrent people of diffrent generations, lived in diffrent places at diffrent times and yet, they carried on with the same message without spiritual contradictions! That's what makes d Bible unique from other religious books who have only one Writter/Bringer whose source can not be ascertained but based on assumptions or in most cases superstitions. For out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every truth will be estabilshed, that is d Bible for u! The oldest but ever new Book! If only you care accept truth and fact instead of doctrine and blind faith, jude specifically says he is quoting from the written of Enoch. The bold also indicates he is repeating the written account of Enoch. But pls if the same holy spirit inspired Enoch was it that inspired Jude, why was this written document Jude was quoting from not canonised? If you claim Jude was quoting from Deut...it not stated there that the words is drawn from Enoch prophecy. Deuteronomy 33:2 English Standard Version (ESV) 2 He said, “The Lord came from Sinai and dawned from Seir upon us; he shone forth from Mount Paran; he came from the ten thousands of holy ones, with flaming fire at his right hand. This is exactly what Jude said : Jude 14–15 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” The bold part is saying clearly that Jude was quoting the prophesy Enoch said. The Red part convey the message which is not in Deut. you stated. Here is the message from Enoch himself. BOOK OF ENOCH Section I. Chapters I-XXXVI INTRODUCTION [Chapter 1] 9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. Can you make any difference? Also Jude didn't say he is quoting from Moses but Enoch prophesy and exactly what he said. You cant call somethiing the catholic church passed down as fraud by accepting only what promote your doctrine and exclude other books. The Coptic Bible and the Ethiopian Bible have this book intact. The question remains, why were the books not included in your own bible despite the inspired apostle of God quote from it. Could this mean he quote from fraud like you said too? |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by MostHigh: 10:42am On Sep 10, 2013 |
superior1: The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) are estimated to date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably was composed at the end of the 1st century BC (wikipedia) If it is a fraud as you say then why did jude quote from it? Why do the easten and oriental orthodoxy accecpt it as authentic?# western christopagan traditions dont know it all mr man, try and look to the east.  Listen to yaself. You might as well call the whole bible a fraud |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by MostHigh: 10:46am On Sep 10, 2013 |
Enigma: Lots of hot air over something which is not a problem for a Christian theologically or otherwise. Spot on Sire. |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by Nobody: 10:55am On Sep 10, 2013 |
Abeg, let Chukwudi and Folykaze handle this. Enigma, most High and truthisight are just contaminating this thread. Please, carry your anti-catholic hate elsewhere, let others learn about the bible |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by FOLYKAZE(m): 11:07am On Sep 10, 2013 |
MostHigh: Dont forget to inform your boss that tomorrow is sept 11...... |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by MostHigh: 11:20am On Sep 10, 2013 |
FOLYKAZE: Hey!! Madam bum bum shaker. How you dey? Still shaking that bum bum I can see. Notin do you untill the nukes arrive |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by MostHigh: 11:21am On Sep 10, 2013 |
Logicboy03: Abeg, let Chukwudi and Folykaze handle this. ? |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by FOLYKAZE(m): 11:43am On Sep 10, 2013 |
MostHigh: Someone is going mad here. Im a guy...give me your gal digit and let her confirm this. Why are you scared? |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by MostHigh: 12:29pm On Sep 10, 2013 |
FOLYKAZE: You are a liar. You are more woman than diana ma sef. Why come here and be deciving people, what do you hope to gain? |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by ayoku777(m): 12:34pm On Sep 10, 2013 |
I've read the book of Enoch and the Book of Jasher and I think I get what FOLYKAZE is trying to say. If biblical books that are inspired by the Holy Spirit used this other books as references, shouldn't that mean those books too are authentic? Unless you're saying the Holy Spirit is using heresis to reference scripture, coz the book of Joshua referred to the book of Jasher and Jude referred to Enoch. There was also this account in Jude 1:9 where Micheal fought with the Devil over the body of Moses. We don't have this story in any of our 66 books today. I think its obvious that what the generation of the apostles called scripture was bulkier than our own bible today. And while we are free to keep an open mind like I do when I read this other books, we need maturity to balance truth 2 Likes |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by FOLYKAZE(m): 12:51pm On Sep 10, 2013 |
MostHigh: Crazeman. Give me your gal digit |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by lacum: 1:25pm On Sep 10, 2013 |
Enigma: The Roman Catholic Church did not canonise anything at the African regional Synods/Councils of Hippo and Carthage.abeg, wot is dis clown saying, smh. i have seen ur many posts here on nairaland where u spew dis rubbish repitedly in ur attempt to discredit d catholic church.u mentiond st. athanasius who was canonised by d catholic church as non catholic? may be u will expect d pope to canonize kumuyi or oyedepo,lol. d catholic church says dat they concluded on d canon around 300yrs after christ and ur saying otherwise so who is rite? athanasius is not d pope so he is not a voice to speak for the whole church |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by MostHigh: 1:25pm On Sep 10, 2013 |
FOLYKAZE: wHY WOULD A MAN TAKE SO MUCH PRIDE IN TALKING ABOUT SHAKING HIS BUM BUM? |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by FOLYKAZE(m): 1:31pm On Sep 10, 2013 |
ayoku777: I've read the book of Enoch and the Book of Jasher and I think I get what FOLYKAZE is trying to say. If biblical books that are inspired by the Holy Spirit used this other books as references, shouldn't that mean those books too are authentic? Unless you're saying the Holy Spirit is using heresis to reference scripture, coz the book of Joshua referred to the book of Jasher and Jude referred to Enoch. How I wish christians can be skeptical about their faith.....most of them just accept anything they were told without questioning how authentic it is. I read Enoch writings through the internet. Some of Jesus teachings and apostles writing were referenced to the book of Enoch. If this book was inspired even to them that quote it but were not canonized so this could mean the church choose what favours their doctrine. |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by lacum: 1:37pm On Sep 10, 2013 |
ayoku777: I've read the book of Enoch and the Book of Jasher and I think I get what FOLYKAZE is trying to say. If biblical books that are inspired by the Holy Spirit used this other books as references, shouldn't that mean those books too are authentic? Unless you're saying the Holy Spirit is using heresis to reference scripture, coz the book of Joshua referred to the book of Jasher and Jude referred to Enoch.pls go and read my earlier post. d fact dat a book is not found in d bible does not mean its bad. in otherwords, d books of the bible are inspired dat does not mean dat d holy spirit does not inspire anyoda book today. there are many books considered as scripture but d books canonized by d authority of d only church is bible and dat is to say dat they are d ones God wants and feels dat his children will read everytin in dem and they will profit from every truth in it. dat is also to say dat there are elements of truth in all d books not canonized but not everyrin is true in dem. dat is y st. jude quoted from it. |
| Re: How Do Xtians Explain That The Book Of Jude Quotes The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch? by lacum: 2:17pm On Sep 10, 2013 |
ayoku777: I've read the book of Enoch and the Book of Jasher and I think I get what FOLYKAZE is trying to say. If biblical books that are inspired by the Holy Spirit used this other books as references, shouldn't that mean those books too are authentic? Unless you're saying the Holy Spirit is using heresis to reference scripture, coz the book of Joshua referred to the book of Jasher and Jude referred to Enoch.pls dont be deceivd go and read my earlier post. the septuagint was what d apostles used as their old testament and dis book of enoch was not there, so it is proper dat d church does not deviate so they cant add it to d bible. and again, dat a book is not in d bible does not make it bad but dat d Holy Spirit who is d author of d bible does not deem it fit to be consumed whollely as revealed truth. in oda words, some ofthe tins in d book of enoch and d rest are true just like there are truths in rumoure. so wot st.jude did was to qoute dat passage he believed to b true as revealed to him by jesus. and for ur info, an author must not agree with everytin in a book even if he quoted some part of it to support his book |
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