How can we think like the west when Nigerian women at large still believe that stealing is a right.

CH3COO:

How can we think like the west when Nigerian women at large still believe that stealing is a right.

Nigerian Women?? I hear the sexist bells ringing loud and clear!!!

@ noetic,

Its your kind of thinking and knowledge that has gotten us to where we are.

noetic:


but think about it. MR A and B both have a farmland. If you begin to look at What [/b]needs to be done and not[b] How [/b]it is done, then u will appreciate my argument that the western way of doing things is not ours. what both Mr A and B needs to get done, is to get their farmlands cultivatable for farming and then the eventual farming which will lead to harvest.
If according to u, MrA has devised a hoe to suit his righthandedness, must MrB apply the same approach since he is left handed? can't [b]he invent a cutlass? must he use a hoe?

Can u read your logic, invent a cutlass and go through a learning curve that will involve a lot of one step forward 5 backward. There is a tried and tested hoe that requires a bit of modification and you will get the whole land cultivated, but no u choose to invent a cutlass.

Pray tell who owns this knowledge, every political philosophy/scientific knowledge are deeply rooted in the west. China has so much spies in Britain and America stealing technology. You absolutely think they invented the whole cycle? Keep deceiving your self.

Look at Nigeria in Liberia and Sierre Leone after spending so much and loosing so much lives, what do we have to show for it, we were sent packing, becos we dont realise its all about INTEREST. Liberia should have been a heaven for Made in Nigerian goods had we had a proper thinking government, Onitsha and Aba should be exporting like wild fire to Liberia and Siere leone.

Keep the anti west narrative going, in short start a Nigerian National party, where electricity is not available in the air port. Absolute rubbish.

Ujujoan:

Nigerian Women?? I hear the sexist bells ringing loud and clear!!!

Na uh! Statement from direct observation, buddy.

away4real:

@ noetic,

------There is a tried and tested hoe that requires a bit of modification and you will get the whole land cultivated-------

------Pray tell who owns this knowledge, every political philosophy/scientific knowledge are deeply rooted in the west. China has so much spies in Britain and America stealing technology. You absolutely think they invented the whole cycle?

The above is exactly what I thought to make you understand after reading my posts @Noetic.

Actually if you look at what Landis is talking about

"Maximising benefits"

You will see that it was this same trait, that led the Europeans to control the world and take lead.

It was this same trait that led Europeans to Colonize Africa.

They did not need to colonize Africa, but maximizing benefits is essentially exploring, to progress economically and discover new ways to boost all sorts of advancements.

"Maximising benefits"

Is not an Intellectual thing

Being the biggest economy is not an intellectual thing

People have actually started to discover that certain economic advancements are endangering the environment and are hence endangering our wellbeing.

America today, is not an happy country, neither are a lot of Western Countries.

However what "Maximising Benefits" does is create authority.

Which is why there has never been a period in which the Black Race has been ahead of the White Race.

It is not an intellectual issue, it is not about being smarter but being in control.

We can progress to be the best of our intellectual abilities, but this may not enable us to seize any authority. The intellectual decision is the best decision; Environmentally, Socially, Sustainable and Economically in one. However "maximizing benefits" gives you the edge over your neighbours. And on this planet Authority is everything.

America is allowed to emit all those greenhouse gases, and so is China, even after we have become aware of the environmental impacts.

Not polluting the atmosphere and slowing down Economic Growth would be the intellectual decision, but doing so anyway gives you authority.

However I will stop short of concurring with Landis by declaring that Africa has indeed done like the West in maximizing benefits.

The root of Maximising benefits is in Exploring, conquering etc. That African Kingdoms did do. Africans were heading in the same direction as their adventurous neighbours the Europeans. However what hindered their ability to compete with the Europeans and the integration of African Kingdoms and tribes etc as was the case in Europe, was the speed of this development in Europe that enabled them to come to Africa, conquer Africa in it's infancy and essentially prevent any integration. This is one of the reasons why Africa is where it is today.

Prior to the Colonization of Africa, there were more tribes and Kingdoms in Africa, that were not bounded by an hierarchy or some sort of Order. In Europe this was the case, but Europe had integrate quicker into obvious "Kingdoms etc". The next step after Integration was Exploration or (The Beginning of Maximising Benefits). Africa had not completed the first stage

away4real:

@ noetic,

Its your kind of thinking and knowledge that has gotten us to where we are.

very funny. . . .

Can u read your logic, invent a cutlass and go through a learning curve that will involve a lot of one step forward 5 backward. There is a tried and tested hoe that requires a bit of modification and you will get the whole land cultivated, but no u choose to invent a cutlass.

did u read kobo's initial analogy of the hoe. my guess is NO.
Mr A is lefthanded, the hoe was designed to suit his particular situation. MrB is right handed u are suggesting he modifies the hoe to suit him, where is he supposed to get skills for modification since u propose that a learning process will result in one step forward and 5 backwards?

If u ask the average western enterpreneur, why africa is underdeveloped? they'd gladly tell you that all that is needed for development is in the book, but the average black man will never study and learn to acquire thes skills.

and coutesy of ur analogy all we need is to continue to recycle this western created schemes at our own detriment, without resorting to learning . what exactly are u saying?

morover, the bone of contention/debate is not limited to technology, it is in all ramifications from political to educational to economical, judicial. . . . . in all ramifications of nation biulding. No one doubts the development of the west, but these things were a function of neccesity which reflects on their society.

my take is cant we create intellectual solutions that reflect on our society. we dont have stable electricity, so y use electronic voting from the west?

Pray tell who owns this knowledge, every political philosophy/scientific knowledge are deeply rooted in the west. China has so much spies in Britain and America stealing technology. You absolutely think they invented the whole cycle? Keep deceiving your self.

are we talking about the same china? who has been the biggest earner of foreign direct investment (FDI) over the past decade? where did the money for (FDI) come from? china or the west?

the west is heavily investing in china to make its environment safe, to avoid poluution and to get cheap labour. China remains the biggest exporter of finished goods to the united states. So if the west is putting money to china for industrilization, isnt it commonsensical that they export technology to china to enable their investments? your argument is invalid.

and like I initially asked, what exactly has china copied from the west? communism? an anarchy driven state?
lack of freedom of speech? totalitarianism? or cheap and debilitating labour? what did china copy from the west?

Look at Nigeria in Liberia and Sierre Leone after spending so much and loosing so much lives, what do we have to show for it, we were sent packing, because we don't realise its all about INTEREST. Liberia should have been a heaven for Made in Nigerian goods had we had a proper thinking government, Onitsha and Aba should be exporting like wild fire to Liberia and Siere leone.

Now these are two different arguments. Nigeria has failed in this regard due to lack of forsight. How does this relate to the issue on ground?

Keep the anti west narrative going, in short start a Nigerian National party, where electricity is not available in the air port. Absolute rubbish.

this is where u get it wrong, mister. No one is anti-west. I am pro-Nigerian.
I put u to task, give practical examples of policies from the west that heve been imported to nigeria and has worked and give exmaples of nigerian made ideas that have failed. that should be a new chapter for this debate.

Kobojunkie:



The above is exactly what I thought to make you understand after reading my posts @Noetic.

I got ur point clearly. But I m only being realistic and practical here, kobo. For no reason, these things have never worked in nigeria. Our mentality, orientation and way of life is different.
A policy from the west is implemented on the background that they have a literacy rate of over 70%. we have an illitracy rate as much as that including other societal factors like religious intolerance. cant we just put that into consideration when making our policies?

But no, we import these policies and expect the success rate that the west have. But if we go to the drawin board and develop ideas that reflect on our situation, the chances of success are higher. . . . . .

But no, we import these policies and expect the success rate that the west have. But if we go to the drawin board and develop ideas that reflect on our situation, the chances of success are higher. . . . . .

Guys, we are simply not serious: sample

why cant we have standard world-class road from Lagos to Onitsha?

Onitsha Bridge was built in 60s, it has never been maintained or serviced.

I would not be surprised if it crashes and kill thousands.

We are simply backward people. We either change our ways or perish together.

noetic:

I got your point clearly. But I m only being realistic and practical here, kobo.

Realistic is far from what you are at this point. You are just full of excuses which you somehow believe explains away what we all know is nothing but stupidity on the part of the people involved.

noetic:

For no reason, these things have never worked in nigeria. Our mentality, orientation and way of life is different.

Dude… they work in Nigeria. Look at Obasanjo’s own farm. Ever wonder how come his personal farm seems to transfer the knowledge and tools, with practically no obstruction  but when he was to do same with Agriculture in Nigeria, he failed at the same?? Are you sure it is the idea itself that failed but silly people playing games?? Do you realize how we are being deceived by this mentality that our reality is stupidity??

noetic:

A policy from the west is implemented on the background that they have a literacy rate of over 70%. we have an illitracy rate as much as that including other societal factors like religious intolerance. can't we just put that into consideration when making our policies?

Rubbish! This is nothing but more and more excuses and nothing substantial. Don’t you think policies already come with plans to educate those to be involved?? What is with all the excuses you keep posting over and over??

noetic:

But no, we import these policies and expect the success rate that the west have. But if we go to the drawin board and develop ideas that reflect on our situation, the chances of success are higher. . . . . .

Obasanjo imported farming ideas into the same Nigeria and look where his farm is right now?? Look at other private areas and think please. Stop trying to create a mountain out of nothing.




Being resistant to ideas from outside of your own shores is one thing but I am sorry, this is just you being ridiculous now. There is nothing realistic about all you have posted so far. Instead of continuing to claim the plans or ideas are faulty, can you please leave bias to the side and start dealing wisely here by being honest about the reality we have in Nigeria??

This is like listening to someone tell of how he believes it is not possible for him to have a shelf when he has right in front of him a shelf-in-a-box that comes with a all the necessary parts and tools needed to assemble it, a good user’s manual that explains the ABC’s of putting together the shelf, a phone number to call for help and even a service that will help build and deliver the already put together shelf to the user’s house for free. Instead of taking advantage of the available resources, he sits and blames the box for his not having a shelf. What the heck!!


aarrgghh !!!! Please stop!! ROFLMAO!!

dblock:


America today, is not an happy country, neither are a lot of Western Countries.

We can progress to be the best of our intellectual abilities, but this may not enable us to seize any authority. The intellectual decision is the best decision; Environmentally, Socially, Sustainable and Economically in one.

And please can u provide evidence to support your statement that America & the west are not happy today. Sorry i forgot Nigerians are the happiest people on earth with no power supply, insecurity, bad roads and large propotion of the population living below $1 per day, happy people indeed.

Reading your second statement i decided not to bother, where someone can say the intellectual decision is not the best one. I rest my case, perhaps the emotional one is better. All the BS about environment and what not i can't be bothered to respond.

@ Landis

I reiterate and it is clear from your response why we are where we are. Just read dblock response and please go no further.

Mr. Landis, a left handed man or right handed man is not the issues here, the issue is there is a tried and tested method that can be modified, adapted whatever. Modifying and adapting to suit your own peculiarity is a skill and requires a lot, we don't even possess that how can we break new frontiers.

When you write an essay u do a literature review, a study of existing literature and knowledge on the field, based on that u make your own advancement, but u must know what has been done FIRST. At times, that is sufficient, other times u need new ones, modify, adapt what ever, its a building block.

The Asian tigers have been stealing technology suiting it to their peculiar situation, from the socio-political arrangement to the scientific (environment, health ) its all adaptations to their situations. China runs a one party state, they are smart enough to try and call that a democracy. The party is still corrupt and all but the idea of a greater good is pusihing development. They are not as diverse as we are so perhaps they can have that, for whatever reason it has worked for the. For us we have had parliamentary system to military rule to democracy we still cant fashion out what works for us then we blame the west.

Even foreign relations China's attitude is the attitude of the West before, support nations irrespective of their human rights record, they are just playing the western script.

Looking at your onitsha bridge and OBJ farm ideology, i just don't know what to say, all i can say is problem dey oh.

landis:



Guys, we are simply not serious: sample

why can't we have standard world-class road from Lagos to Onitsha?

Onitsha Bridge was built in 60s, it has never been maintained or serviced.

I would not be surprised if it crashes and kill thousands.

We are simply backward people. We either change our ways or perish together.

well illustrated and well stated.

Nigeria undoubtedly presently suffer from bad leadership.





@ kobo.

me not seeing things as u c it, does not mean I m far from reality. as a matter of fact, I m within the scope of reality.

There are two issues being peddled around in this debate. one is the issue of copying from the west and the other is the issue of bad leadership in nigeria.
please don't mistake my disagreement on your position on western importation of ideas to mean that I m excusing the failed leadership in nigeria.
as a matter of fact, nigerian leadership has failed and so also is the notion of importing western ideas.

I can as such say that Nigerian leadership has failed at all levels as butresed by landis, big b1 and away4real including yourself.
but I beg to differ on the issue of western ideas and practices, their practices have failed in Nigeria without excuses for any past leader.


[quote author=Kobojunkie link=topic=145061.msg2456295#msg2456295 date=1215103008]
Dude… they work in Nigeria. Look at Obasanjo’s own farm. Ever wonder how come his personal farm seems to transfer the knowledge and tools, with practically no obstruction but when he was to do same with Agriculture in Nigeria, he failed at the same?? Are you sure it is the idea itself that failed but silly people playing games?? Do you realize how we are being deceived by this mentality that our reality is stupidity??
[/Quote]

are u refering to obasanjo's first or second coming to power? if you're refering to the second, I can boldly tell u that his agricultural policy suceeded. his policy was capitalist driven to corner economic wealth into the hands of a few. Obasanjo's farm is a good testimony. and only rich men and politicians like Dangote, Danjuma, abdusalami et all are able to farm succesfully in nigeria during obasanjo's govt.

That obasanjo did not meet your farming expectation or mine is not the issue, the issue is he used a capitalist notion copied from the west to enable a few rich feed millions of people. but if u ask me, I d say he failed and my reason is because he applied western capitalist traits into our nation biulding.

[Quote]
Rubbish! This is nothing but more and more excuses and nothing substantial. Don’t you think policies already come with plans to educate those to be involved?? What is with all the excuses you keep posting over and over??
[/Quote]
I think you're d one giving irrelevant excuses here. what form of education is IWU supposed to give a man who never attended a primary or secondary school, about how to use electronic voting system few weeks to an election?

I don't understand y u can't c the obvious picture. option A4 is a made in nigeria product, never used anywhere in d world, yet it worked out fine in Nigeria. regardless of our illitracy rate, it still worked well. and I understand that up to 8 theories were designed before option A4 was chosen. do u have a problem with originality?

[Quote]
Obasanjo imported farming ideas into the same Nigeria and look where his farm is right now?? Look at other private areas and think please. Stop trying to create a mountain out of nothing.
[/Quote]
Kobo, were his farming ideas between 1999-2007 socialist or welfarist driven? NO.
They were capitalist in nature, they bought ferterliser with government money, distributed it to capitalists like himself and they have good and bouyant farms that feed 150 million nigerians.

The issue is capitalism as a wstern import is not suitable for nigeria. YES obasanjo is a failure, but his failure is enhanced by western ideas which are not applicable to nigeria.

[Quote]
Being resistant to ideas from outside of your own shores is one thing but I am sorry, this is just you being ridiculous now. There is nothing realistic about all you have posted so far. Instead of continuing to claim the plans or ideas are faulty, can you please leave bias to the side and start dealing wisely here by being honest about the reality we have in Nigeria??
[/Quote]

and may I ask what is the reality in this case?

If your analogy of being pro-western results to intellectual laziness on our part, then it is not an option.

why cant we have a welfarist or socialist driven democracy to cater for 100 million poor and empower at least another 30 million into the middle class? why can't we resort to a regional system of government of the first republic or make a new system that reflects our diversity and peculiarity?
why can't we have a socialist driven healthcare and educational facilities?

let me state here again, that I do appreciate western development, policies, ideas and practices to a great extent. but their development and ideas are poducts of knowledge which reflect on their society and cultural diversity. Is it too much if I ask that we also resort to knowledge (the drawing board) and enable development which reflects on our own diversified society?

I m asking again, what did china or saudi arabia from the west? because as far as I m concerned every body went to the drawin board and brought up ideas that reflect on their society.

[Quote]
This is like listening to someone tell of how he believes it is not possible for him to have a shelf when he has right in front of him a shelf-in-a-box that comes with a all the necessary parts and tools needed to assemble it, a good user’s manual that explains the ABC’s of putting together the shelf, a phone number to call for help and even a service that will help build and deliver the already put together shelf to the user’s house for free. Instead of taking advantage of the available resources, he sits and blames the box for his not having a shelf. What the heck!!
[/Quote]
kobo, your analogy here is not applicable to this argument/debate.
The shelf was assembled, but became useless because it wasnt needed in the first place, the man had no radios, speakers, TV or large volume of books to store in the shelf. A table with a lamp was all that was needed because what the man had was just 3 books to read for an exam. this shelf now houses mosquitoes and rats, who now constitute a nuisance.
can't u understand that situations that warrant human demands are always different?

get it straight, western ideas are beautiful but they don't suit us and please don't tell me I m excusing some failed leaders.

noetic:

@ kobo.

me not seeing things as u c it, does not mean I m far from reality. as a matter of fact, I m within the scope of reality.

There are two issues being peddled around in this debate. one is the issue of copying from the west and the other is the issue of bad leadership in nigeria.
please don't mistake my disagreement on your position on western importation of ideas to mean that I m excusing the failed leadership in nigeria.
as a matter of fact, nigerian leadership has failed and so also is the notion of importing western ideas.

@Noetic, I am not actually advocating for western importation, I am simply advocating for us to start using common sense and if it means copying what ALREADY WORKS from the west, east, north, south, I am for it.

However, your argument so far seems to be anti-west to the point that it does not make sense to me at all why or how anyone would come to the same conclusions on the issues as you have so far. I really don't get how all you have posted so far has anything to do with reality.

I give you analogy after analogy to clue you into what the whole "thinking like the west" deal could really be about but you come back with some of the strangest reasons and excuses for why the fault is to be place on the ideas and why the west does not have anything for us. I am sturned that anyone could post such.

noetic:

I can as such say that Nigerian leadership has failed at all levels as butresed by landis, big b1 and away4real including yourself.
but I beg to differ on the issue of western ideas and practices, their practices have failed in Nigeria without excuses for any past leader.

Unbelievable!!! Has education failed us as well??

noetic:

are u refering to obasanjo's first or second coming to power? if you're refering to the second, I can boldly tell u that his agricultural policy suceeded. his policy was capitalist driven to corner economic wealth into the hands of a few. Obasanjo's farm is a good testimony. and only rich men and politicians like Dangote, Danjuma, abdusalami et all are able to farm succesfully in nigeria during obasanjo's govt.

You are just full of excuses, aren't you?? WOW!!!

noetic:

That obasanjo did not meet your farming expectation or mine is not the issue, the issue is he used a capitalist notion copied from the west to enable a few rich feed millions of people. but if u ask me, I d say he failed and my reason is because he applied western capitalist traits into our nation biulding,

WOW!!!

noetic:

I think you're d one giving irrelevant excuses here. what form of education is IWU supposed to give a man who never attended a primary or secondary school, about how to use electronic voting system few weeks to an election?,

WOW!!!

noetic:

I don't understand y u can't c the obvious picture. option A4 is a made in nigeria product, never used anywhere in d world, yet it worked out fine in Nigeria. regardless of our illitracy rate, it still worked well. and I understand that up to 8 theories were designed before option A4 was chosen. do u have a problem with originality?
Kobo, were his farming ideas between 1999-2007 socialist or welfarist driven? NO.
They were capitalist in nature, they bought ferterliser with government money, distributed it to capitalists like himself and they have good and bouyant farms that feed 150 million nigerians.

The issue is capitalism as a wstern import is not suitable for nigeria. YES obasanjo is a failure, but his failure is enhanced by western ideas which are not applicable to nigeria.

and may I ask what is the reality in this case?

If your analogy of being pro-western results to intellectual laziness on our part, then it is not an option.

why can't we have a welfarist or socialist driven democracy to cater for 100 million poor and empower at least another 30 million into the middle class? why can't we resort to a regional system of government of the first republic or make a new system that reflects our diversity and peculiarity?
why can't we have a socialist driven healthcare and educational facilities?

let me state here again, that I do appreciate western development, policies, ideas and practices to a great extent. but their development and ideas are poducts of knowledge which reflect on their society and cultural diversity. Is it too much if I ask that we also resort to knowledge (the drawing board) and enable development which reflects on our own diversified society?

I m asking again, what did china or saudi arabia from the west? because as far as I m concerned every body went to the drawin board and brought up ideas that reflect on their society.
kobo, your analogy here is not applicable to this argument/debate.
The shelf was assembled, but became useless because it wasnt needed in the first place, the man had no radios, speakers, TV or large volume of books to store in the shelf. A table with a lamp was all that was needed because what the man had was just 3 books to read for an exam. this shelf now houses mosquitoes and rats, who now constitute a nuisance.
can't u understand that situations that warrant human demands are always different?

get it straight, western ideas are beautiful but they don't suit us and please don't tell me I m excusing some failed leaders.

I say I quit at this point!!! Nothing more to add here as it seems this is going no where.

And please can u provide evidence to support your statement that America & the west are not happy today. Sorry i forgot Nigerians are the happiest people on earth with no power supply, insecurity, bad roads and large propotion of the population living below $1 per day, happy people indeed.

Reading your second statement i decided not to bother, where someone can say the intellectual decision is not the best one. I rest my case, perhaps the emotional one is better. All the BS about environment and what not i can't be bothered to respond.

Look at this homsexual.

America is not a happy country because; there is sizable amount of crime, poverty is lower than in most countries but it is still existent, a lot of American minorities remain passive, People are over materialistic, and this hasn't been proven to create an happiness, Obesity is rampant and studies have shown that the standard of living in America which isn't actually as good as people may think, does not factor in the things that actually account for happiness. And yes statistically Nigeria is a happier country than America.

The intellectual decision is the best one, you are misconstruing my points. I made statements declaring that the decisions made by America and a lot of countries are made to seize Authority and benefit a few, they do to benefit the people that are exploited nor do they benefit the vast majority of the American population. The sustainable decisions or the "emotional" one as you have so simplistically put is the decision that can equate to wellbeing over a prolonged period of time. We have been made more and more aware, that we are moving past the equilibrium. We have reshaped the earth and by searching for various alternatives, we will inevitably be creating a never ending cycle of amendments, alternatives, problems etc.

All the BS about the environment, is actually occurring right in front of your eyes. Natural disasters are gradually intensifying and this is a product of the economic advancements made by the world's largest economies that are sabotaging the environment and thus any future whatsoever.

The sort of reasons people give for their weird beliefs blows my minds!!! ROFLMAO!!!!