Was reading a book about African philosophy and Spirituality which pictured that we are always being moved towards magnificence by "universe". Now, I have come up with the idea base on the concept of Ori and Ipin (destiny) in Yoruba philosophy that we are nothing else but puppets. This is much more like being moved by satellites with loaded images and thoughts. Man is aware of its results, but not of the process itself. I find it fascinating that there is so much going on automatically that we're aware of so little of it. You might find this theory weak but if you think again, you will start finding clues in your life that proves the truth.

Intelligent folks all from religion circle, spiritual sides, philosophical view, and other house of knowledge have debated the issue of freewill for millennia. But over the past several years, while the philosophers and other scholars continue to argue about the metaphysical underpinnings of human choice, an increasing number of neuroscientists have started to tackle the issue head on — quite literally. And most of them believe that their experiments reveal that our subjective experience of freedom may be nothing more than an illusion.

Indeed, historically speaking, African philosophers, metaphysists and spiritual men have had plenty to say on the matter. Their ruminations have given rise to such considerations as cosmological determinism (the notion that everything proceeds over the course of time in a predictable way, making freewill impossible), indeterminism (the idea that the universe and our actions within it are random, also making freewill impossible), and cosmological libertarianism/compatibilism (the suggestion that freewill is logically compatible with deterministic views of the universe meaning operating within the law of nature).

I know we don't have freewill base on Yoruba spirituality. Freewill is a very convincing illusion and that the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of human beings are just a chain of reactions that operate according to physical laws. This chain of reaction is so extremely complex that it can't be predicted and it gives the illusion that we have freewill.

Also from atheistic view, our view points that all that exists is the material/physical world, and hence everything operates according to the laws of physics - even our behaviors, emotions, and most personal thoughts. All of this is due to the chain of chemical reactions in our brain that cause us to think/feel/act in the ways that we do, and in response to the actions of others which themselves are determined by the chain of chemical reactions in their brain, which themselves are determined by the actions of others.... and on and on it goes.

Moe's lines in the movie Simpsons: "Rich people aren't happy. From the day they're born to the day they die, they think they're happy, but trust me. They ain't.". In the past I used to dismiss determinism as a dead-end concept from primitive retard and embrace ‘freewill’ as the positive alternative......the more I look into this, the more I see illusion of brain. A person's conscious thoughts, intentions, and efforts at every moment are preceded by causes of which he is unaware. What is more, they are preceded by deep causes — genes, childhood experience, etc. — for which no one, however evil, can be held responsible. Our ignorance of both sets of facts gives rise to moral illusions. The choice we made and every decision is a configuration within the neurons....the feelings that we are free and ego.....everything is illusion.



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The questions I will like to ask are:

- what are your thought on freewill?

- Are we human free or just a slave/puppet?

- What are your views on predestination (cosmological determinism)?

A lion may choose to kill a prey, or let it go, based on its level of hunger, is that freewill?

I think what we call freewill is instinct, no matter what, you wont do something you wont gain in it, even if its just a good feeling that it gives, like a feeling of sharing love, or revenge, even though it might hurt you, so i think what we call freewill is the relic of our instinctual existence, from our ape ancestors...

Fate, kismet, predestination - are all myths..... there is only coincidence, no predestination, because the predestinator would require a predestinator, and that goes on forever...

@OP: It's good ethics to post the links of your sources to avoid being accused of plagiarism.

ooman: A lion may choose to kill a prey, or let it go, based on its level of hunger, is that freewill?

I think what we call freewill is instinct, no matter what, you wont do something you wont gain in it, even if its just a good feeling that it gives, like a feeling of sharing love, or revenge, even though it might hurt you, so i think what we call freewill is the relic of our instinctual existence, from our ape ancestors...

Can you directly answer the questions directed at you or you want to dance around?

Note: the choice you made is also a chemical reaction in your brain. So you aint free anywhere

ooman: Fate, kismet, predestination - are all myths..... there is only coincidence, no predestination, because the predestinator would require a predestinator, and that goes on forever...

As if there is a term like God in my post. Deal with topic.

aManFromMars: @OP: It's good ethics to post the links of your sources to avoid being accused of plagiarism.

A majority of people are automatically sent in to massive confusion and panic because they allow themselves to be led to the truth rather than guided to it – so that they can “feel” the truth!.....Amanfrommars is exceptional. Deal with topic

FOLYKAZE:

Can you directly answer the questions directed at you or you want to dance around?

Note: the choice you made is also a chemical reaction in your brain. So you aint free anywhere

you asked for my thoughts on freewill, and i gave it...

as long as these chemical reactions are random, am free

the only illusion here is thought that there is a you, who is choosing.... there is really no you, just a combination of cells that make a unit, so you are reducible... period...

FOLYKAZE:
______________________________________________________

The questions I will like to ask are:

- what are your [size=29pt]thought[/size] on freewill?

- Are we human free or just a slave/puppet?

- What are your views on predestination (cosmological determinism)?

this is your post as i recall

ooman:

you asked for my thoughts on freewill, and i gave it...

as long as these chemical reactions are random, am free

the only illusion here is thought that there is a you, who is choosing.... there is really no you, just a combination of cells that make a unit, so you are reducible... period...

calm down man. We dont know things all at once....we learn so nothing bad learning from you too.

The chemical and electrical reaction are operating random on a universal law. Your brain cant stimulate to what you dont have knowledge about or saved in the memory bank. How is you controlling this reaction? Lot of reaction are going unnoticied automatically.......what brings about the automation?

ooman: Fate, kismet, predestination - are all myths..... there is only coincidence, no predestination, because the predestinator would require a predestinator, and that goes on forever...

lets start with your definition of freewill. Might get your picture clearer there

FOLYKAZE:



calm down man. We dont know things all at once....we learn so nothing bad learning from you too.

The chemical and electrical reaction are operating random on a universal law. Your brain cant stimulate to what you dont have knowledge about or saved in the memory bank. How is you controlling this reaction? Lot of reaction are going unnoticied automatically.......what brings about the automation?

you are not controlling the reaction and the dynamism of nature is what brings about the automation

FOLYKAZE:

lets start with your definition of freewill. Might get your picture clearer there

ability to choose ?

ooman:

ability to choose ?

Thanks

You once said that the real 'me' is an illusion of the brain.

The real 'me' takes charge of ability or decision to choice

Our thought is a complex reaction while our choice is the processing of our thought. All this is illusion.

How can the 'illuminated me' controls automated reaction and call it freewill? Is this not neuron playing game on us?

ooman:

you are not controlling the reaction and the dynamism of nature is what brings about the automation

can we simply say dynamism of nature is the thing controlling us?


I will appreciate if you read through this article....http://www.joaoferreiradias.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/7135279-ANaturalisticInterpretationOfTheYorubaConceptOfOri1.pdf

like I told Uyi yesterday.....Ori and predestination simply is consciousness and manifestation of consciousness within existence.

FOLYKAZE:

The questions I will like to ask are:

- what are your thought on freewill?

i dont believe there is a substantial definition for the word freewill, infact i believe freewill explain nothing at all.. i dont get attached

FOLYKAZE:


- Are we human free or just a slave/puppet?

no one is free and no one is a puppet, the answer lies beyound freedom and bondage

FOLYKAZE:


- What are your views on predestination (cosmological determinism)?

its a word created out of nothing so i dont get attached to it... infact i have come to realize that all words are just pointer not a destination (every words used in the spiritual/natural explanation are just a means to an end not an end in itself)

beejaay:
i dont believe there is a substantial definition for the word freewill, infact i believe freewill explain nothing at all.. i dont get attached

Alright, let me simply ask......can we control our thought, choice and mental activities or it other way round?

beejaay:
no one is free and no one is a puppet, the answer lies beyound freedom and bondage

are you specifically saying we are one infinite mind?

beejaay:
its a word created out of nothing so i dont get attached to it... infact i have come to realize that all words are just pointer not a destination (every words used in the spiritual/natural explanation are just a means to an end not an end in itself)

Im sorry pls....are you a nihilist?

What is your understanding in Yoruba concept of Ori and Ipin?

FOLYKAZE:



Thanks

You once said that the real 'me' is an illusion of the brain.

The real 'me' takes charge of ability or decision to choice

Our thought is a complex reaction while our choice is the processing of our thought. All this is illusion.

How can the 'illuminated me' controls automated reaction and call it freewill? Is this not neuron playing game on us?

What automated reaction do you control?

#You dont control something that is automated.....

FOLYKAZE:

can we simply say dynamism of nature is the thing controlling us?


I will appreciate if you read through this article....http://www.joaoferreiradias.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/7135279-ANaturalisticInterpretationOfTheYorubaConceptOfOri1.pdf

like I told Uyi yesterday.....Ori and predestination simply is consciousness and manifestation of consciousness within existence.

it controls the choices we have, but i think instinct controls what we choose... what favors survival and what doesnt...

FOLYKAZE: Our ignorance of both sets of facts gives rise to moral illusions. The choice we made and every decision is a configuration within the neurons....the feelings that we are free and ego.....everything is illusion.

the question is what is illusion?? below are some verses of Lao Ztu that i tend to ponder on a lot

The Master leads by
emptying people's minds,
filling their bellies,
weakening their ambitions,
and making them become strong.
Preferring simplicity and freedom from desires,
avoiding the pitfalls of knowledge and wrong action.

Nurture the darkness of your soul
When you understand all things
can you step back from your own understanding?

Renounce knowledge and your problems will end.
What is the difference between yes and no?
What is the difference between good and evil?
Must you fear what others fear?

ooman:

What automated reaction do you control?

#You dont control something that is automated.....

simply no ability to choice.

#we are just in matrix

ooman:

it controls the choices we have, but i think instinct controls what we choose... what favors survival and what doesnt...

Omo odua. Lol

Instinct is still function of the brain.

We have no freedom...... What ya think?

beejaay:

the question is what is illusion?? below are some verses of Lao Ztu that i tend to ponder on a lot

The Master leads by
emptying people's minds,
filling their bellies,
weakening their ambitions,
and making them become strong.
Preferring simplicity and freedom from desires,
avoiding the pitfalls of knowledge and wrong action.

Nurture the darkness of your soul
When you understand all things
can you step back from your own understanding?

Renounce knowledge and your problems will end.
What is the difference between yes and no?
What is the difference between good and evil?
Must you fear what others fear?

Erm sir...

Lets be sincere, im lost in you. Can you pls break things down. Pls

FOLYKAZE:

Alright, let me simply ask......can we control our thought, choice and mental activities or it other way round?

trying to control anything atall is a futile exercise as i av found out, the only thing we do in the process is create more suffering (all it takes for us is to look around for trillions of example)... the body is programmed to take kia of itself without interference, any attempt to do otherwise bring conflict and conflict bring suffering... every suffering that we see in all facet of live is as a result of interference (the wars and hungers included)... wars are result of quest for control/power, control is a result of greed, greed is a result of fear while fear is an offspring of competition

FOLYKAZE:
are you specifically saying we are one infinite mind?

frankly speaking bros we can call our mind anything and we will find prove for it

FOLYKAZE:
Im sorry pls....are you a nihilist?

am just an observer

Chai.....let me check if im having any shot

beejaay:

trying to control anything atall is a futile exercise as i av found out, the only thing we do in the process is create more suffering (all it takes for us is to look around for trillions of example)... the body is programmed to take kia of itself without interference, any attempt to do otherwise bring conflict and conflict bring suffering... every suffering that we see in all facet of live is as a result of interference (the wars and hungers included)... wars are result of quest for control/power, control is a result of greed, greed is a result of fear while fear is an offspring of competition

Oh my.....LIFE ITSELF IS NOTHING.

If the body was programmed to take care of itself......isn't this what we call predestination?

Predestination to me is experimentation of consciousness within existence. What ya think about this view?

beejaay:
frankly speaking bros we can call our mind anything and we will find prove for it

Nothing can be proven, everything is "speculation" when it comes down to it. Facts are just observations based on our experiences. “No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.” - Albert Einstein


But bro....let me learn from ya. Dont want this nullifing things.

Are we one infinite mind?

beejaay:
am just an observer

Whats your observation on Ori and Ipin?

FOLYKAZE:

Erm sir...

Lets be sincere, im lost in you. Can you pls break things down. Pls

i wish i could but unfortunately am good with writing (i dont rili have a good english background, i started learning when i entered the university back then) but i will try my best to bring a pointer (but pls pardon my errors)

.:
Nurture the darkness of your soul
When you understand all things
can you step back from your own understanding?

everybody wants to be the light, they ask for enlightenment, they all want to illuminate accross the world, they all forbade darkenss (they see darkness as evil ) but what they are oblivious of is that darkness is the creator of light, the source of every illumination is darkness.. thats why Lao Ztu said "freed from desire and u can see the hidden mystery, with desire u can only see what is visibly real" desire is light and its only those that nurture the darkness of their soul that can see beyound darkness (there is nothing beyound light except light)

when people try to deny the darkness of there soul they talk about control of thought, emotions and the like... a true seeker embrace darkness..

.:

When you understand all things
can you step back from your own understanding?

when u nurture the darkness of ur soul and see the outward projection of light.. when u move within the light can u return back to source at will?? (after acquiring knowledge can u drop it all and marvel at the foolishness of it all...this is why ifa mythology said life is vanity, that those that look for life didn't find it and those that found didnt know they have....why because its never lost in the first place)
the secret of death is to die before we die and when we die we realize that there is no death



the truth is even i knw that i have not said anything ***and that is what am trying to point towards***

FOLYKAZE: Chai.....let me check if im having any shot



Oh my.....LIFE ITSELF IS NOTHING.

If the body was programmed to take care of itself......isn't this what we call predestination?

Predestination to me is experimentation of consciousness within existence. What ya think about this view?




Nothing can be proven, everything is "speculation" when it comes down to it. Facts are just observations based on our experiences. “No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.” - Albert Einstein

thanks to einsteing for bailing me out


But bro....let me learn from ya. Dont want this nullifing things. [/quote]
the truth is i have nothing to tell that u dont already know....if anything i will just create a ground for arguments

Are we one infinite mind?[/quote] some we say we are and some will say we are not..well i know we are beyound (saying we are finite means we have limitations and saying we are infinite bring about question of infinite regression) the same way when people talk about God existence i simply tell them god is beyound existence, why? because existence is bound by the space time continum whether here in our galaxy or other galaxies.. when am asked what god is then, i simply tell them God is the same way humans are, no amount of words can explain it cos it is us that create the words we speak not the other way round



Whats your observation on Ori and Ipin? [/quote] both of them explain the same thing... ori is the cause while ipin is the effect

beejaay:

i wish i could but unfortunately am good with writing (i dont rili have a good english background, i started learning when i entered the university back then) but i will try my best to bring a pointer (but pls pardon my errors)


everybody wants to be the light, they ask for enlightenment, they all want to illuminate accross the world, they all forbade darkenss (they see darkness as evil ) but what they are oblivious of is that darkness is the creator of light, the source of every illumination is darkness.. thats why Lao Ztu said "freed from desire and u can see the hidden mystery, with desire u can only see what is visibly real" desire is light and its only those that nurture the darkness of their soul that can see beyound darkness (there is nothing beyound light except light)

when people try to deny the darkness of there soul they talk about control of thought, emotions and the like... a true seeker embrace darkness..


when u nurture the darkness of ur soul and see the outward projection of light.. when u move within the light can u return back to source at will?? (after acquiring knowledge can u drop it all and marvel at the foolishness of it all...this is why ifa mythology said life is vanity, that those that look for life didn't find it and those that found didnt know they have....why because its never lost in the first place)
the secret of death is to die before we die and when we die we realize that there is no death



the truth is even i knw that i have not said anything ***and that is what am trying to point towards***

1000 likes. This is a course on it own.

Pardon my foolishness here pls. Here is my outline on the way I understand the above

- darkness is the stream of experience

- light is the observation of darkness.....it end of dark tunnel

- everything is nothing.....both darkness and light is the reality of each other. Nothing comes out of this.

Got some sense here?

FOLYKAZE:

Omo odua. Lol

Instinct is still function of the brain.

We have no freedom...... What ya think?

why did you say we have no freedom...

ooman:

why did you say we have no freedom...

we are conscious and manifesting consciousness within existence.

Manifestation is chemical and electric reaction. Billions of cells are processing and manifesting our experience through sense organ. The brain riddle and grind all. The chunk in our head is the boss.

beejaay:
thanks to einsteing for bailing me out

Lol. If that be the case, our been here got no meaning.... Everything is vanity and chasing of wind.

beejaay:
the truth is i have nothing to tell that u dont already know....if anything i will just create a ground for arguments

The truth is that im conscious but need to understand self-consciousness.... You get me right?

beejaay:
some we say we are and some will say we are not..well i know we are beyound (saying we are finite means we have limitations and saying we are infinite bring about question of infinite regression) the same way when people talk about God existence i simply tell them god is beyound existence, why? because existence is bound by the space time continum whether here in our galaxy or other galaxies.. when am asked what god is then, i simply tell them God is the same way humans are, no amount of words can explain it cos it is us that create the words we speak not the other way round

I dont believe in God but I still find this your concept reasonable. God to me is the totality of all.

beejaay:
both of them explain the same thing... ori is the cause while ipin is the effect

this is what im trying to explain. Some pick on the surface of Ifa teaching.....thinking predestination is supernatural folklore.

Sorry if my question is getting too much...... There is this my friend I told im atheist. She laughed at me and said everything im doing now, it is planned in Ajule Orun and im just manifesting on script. She said i was an atheist in Ajule Orun before been born and that is why it manifest in me.

What exactly does she mean?

FOLYKAZE:

1000 likes. This is a course on it own.

Pardon my foolishness here pls. Here is my outline on the way I understand the above

- darkness is the stream of experience

- light is the observation of darkness.....it end of dark tunnel

- everything is nothing.....both darkness and light is the reality of each other. Nothing comes out of this.

Got some sense here?

thank u for this "both darkness and light is the reality of each other" none is superior to the other..... wish am good wit words like u