Long story for very straightforward ayat.

The prophets are held to much higher standards but they are still admonished by Allah.

tbaba1234: Long story for very straightforward ayat.

The prophets are held to much higher standards but they are still admonished by Allah.

That is what is called 'Tafsir al-Qur'an'; a single verse! Lengthy and sensible explanation not just 'Quotation and verbal interpretation' all the time.

Well that's the best I can do to explain to you that if Allah "forgives" or "admonish" His beloved prophet(s), it does not mean they commit sin or wrong act.

I remember when a christian quoted sura al-Fatih vs 2 for a Sunni scholar in kaduna to make a point that the holy prophet (saws) was a sinner : "We have forgiven you your past sins and future sins"

The alim beautifully explained that does not mean sin per se. Then to my suprise he brought out "The concept of infallibility of the prophets. Then conclude thus:

Jesus taught his disciples:

"...and forgive us as we forgive others..."
And he said because Jesus use "us" (which include himself), can we conclude he's also a sinner?

The holy prophet have absolved himself and his ahl al-bayt free from sin (hadith Tirmidhi: kindly see all your reply if you haven't so that we don't go back)

I say "Allahuma salli ala Muhammad wa ahli Muhammad."

I appreciate your precious time.

Salam.

maclatunji:

You do have the desire to raise certain people above their true station. Tbaba has given you examples, the case of the marriage of Zainab (RA) for example or the circumstances of answering the 3 questions of suratul Kahf give insights that the Prophet (SAW) did not always get what he wanted. Certain things are Allah's perogative and he shares them with no one.

Islam was perfected during the lifetime of the Prophet (SAW) and no amount of hype and creative interpretations of verses can change that.

It is on record that several Sahaba never chose a side in the unfortunate events that led to schism and remained sincere Muslims because Islam is above such pettiness. You don't need to put any companion on a pedestal to be a Muslim. What is required of you is to respect them.

It is not useful to enter arguments with you over some of your posts, they cannot survive basic scrutiny. However, you will desperately seek to defend them with even more ridiculous explanations. Hence, they will be ignored for the most part.

Maclatunji,

Honestly you are a man of truth because you said "...your posts, they cannot survive basic scrutiny. .."
That's the reason I was been very careful to make Ahlu sunnah references. Qoute me anywhere, anyday and anytime that ALL ahlu sunnah references I used to backed up my points are false. In sha Allah we shall be here.

I put it to you that Allah has elevated the status of some above others among His prophets and saints (according to the Qur'an and hadithi Rasul) yet you tell me I have a desire to elevate some over others.
Please let's be sincere to ourselves. I expect you to prove me wrong not accussing.

Allah elevated them not me.

Why do u do salam to the holy prophet and his ahl al-bayt every five daily salat of yours? It is right there in the Qur'an and hadith! So why don't you include all other sahaba in it as we used to do when we are not praying : "saying: Allahuma salli ala Muhammad wa ala ahlihi WA AS'HABIHI (O Allah bless Muhammad and his progeny AND HIS COMPANIONS)? Even at anytime and at All time he (saws) never ordered us to include his sahaba in Salawat (only our rationale told us its okay if we do it).

This is another indication for you that some have been rank higher over others.

*Then you claimed its on record that several companions didn't take side when the unfortunate incident of schism happened. That is an indication you admit several others too switch side. For your information however the holy prophet (saws) said:

" Don't try to find faults with ‘Alī, he is indeed from me and I am from him, HE IS YOUR LEADER AFTER ME. He is from me and I am from him, HE IS YOUR LEADER AFTER ME"

Ref: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbali, vol. 5 p. 356; Ahmad bin Hanbal, al-Musnad, annotated by Ahmad Muhammad Shākir in 15 volumes, Dār al-Ma‘ārif, Cairo, 1949-1958, hadith no. 883.

So what happened to those that didn't switch side and acknowledge somebody else as their leader after Muhammad (saws)? The same exactly is happening to you know!

Dear brother, Islam dialogue is not about WIN or LOSE situations. If you enter into a debate or dialogue since it is for salvation, you are expected to be truthful thereby whatever you quot should be accurate and the best is to make findings rather than accussing or disregarding a point because its "new" or hatred.

Mr moderator thanks for your time.
Salam.

tbaba1234: Long story for very straightforward ayat.

The prophets are held to much higher standards but they are still admonished by Allah.

LOL #Abi

maclatunji:

Perfect. You have proven that which needs to be proven. Prophets could make errors which were corrected by Allah.

Not every point you contest dear brother except you have a better argument.

Dear brother,
If you and I perform a single task, feel its ok (according to our rationale and standards set by Allah) and even thank God for it, Allah might accept our deeds.

In the case of the prophets, for them to "feel or think" its okay, its a "SIN" or "transgression" (zulm) on their part to God. Ordinarily or literally this is not a "sin" or "zulm" but these noble men of God will cry out and seek for forgiveness for even think it.
That's why I keep on stressing that we are not comparing their relative infallibility with that of Allah's absolute "infallibility".

Look at prophet Ibrahim and Ismail (a.s). Allah commanded them to re-build kaaba and they did as instructed. Alas! Both of them cried out onto their Lord:

"Rabbana taqbal minna innaka anta semiun alim"

"O our Lord accept this deed of ours for indeed You are hearer knower"

You see they are different entirely to us.

Salam

maclatunji:

LOL #Abi

I wonder how you feel explaining certain things to christians who never bye Islamic ideologies and accused Islam or prophet of wrong doing.

Don't just Laugh brothers. If you don't know you ask not disregarding points on hatred of dialogue with a shia or shia "alien belief (as many people do accused). And I've told you Islamic dialogue is not a WIN or LOSE situation. Its a matter of being sincere.

Not only shi'a believe in Isma (infallibility) of the prophets. Many ahlu sunna (esp. Sufi, Mu'tazili etc) also believe in this concept and always sweat to defend it just the way shi'a is doing.

ONLY the SALAFI say otherwise and preaching the concept of fallibility on the part of the prophets.

Salam

Al-Baqir:


Honestly I don't know the reason or intent of Maclatunji in placing my "article (Aqeedah as u put it) to front page. I don't know and whatever the reason may be, that's why I thank him nonetheless. Me and him has crossed each other many times. So I wanted to show that I don't have any ill feelings, I need to say thank you.

To your first question:
I was born and bred as a Sunni muslim (its of no use telling u my story) and as I tend to reserch more about Islam, I came across a book "Shia: myth or reality" in 1993.
After reading this book written by a Sunni scholar, I hated shia and their beliefs....

Until sometimes in 1996 where I found a book "al-Muraja'at" (The right path): a dialogue between sheikh Mahmud saltoot (1964-5 al-Ahzar university grand sheikh, cairo) and Sayyid Abdul Hussain sharafadeen al-musawi. A scholarly dialogue indeed. Brother try to google all this fact. The book and findings in it changed my perceptions.

In short, I felt cheated for as a muslim. Therefore the reason why I am written all these are:

1. To tell the whole world that Shi'a are not Kafir as always being professed

NB: You don't want to hear my life threatened experience for being a Shia in this large world of Sunni.

2. To tell my Sunni brethren to research deeply rather than contented with what they believe in.

3. Long written and articles: to explain in details as best as I can. A religious studies is a careful studies which should take time. Thereby anybody who is interested will read.

Thanks brother.

Salam.

I feel your pain bro but the truth is that you can't impose your ideology on others.

And if you intend to preach Shia ideology, I think you should open your thread with information about Shia not a controversial one like this.

I used the word LONG because most people don't have time online reading, summarize and strike your points.

I have attended study circles where Shia, Mutazilla, Ahmadiyya, alh Lu Sunna ..... were dissected,so I'm lucky to know my onions. I would rather not join because it's always a no ending discussion.
For newbies in Islam this is surely a path to confusion. That's why I'm still angry with Maclatunji for placing this on Front page on a Friday where over 100,000 people can access.

My dream is Unity in diversity!

Tunshe, why don't you be fair and just with me dear brother? You said you asked me a question which I wasn't able to answer. By Allah am hearing this for the first time EVER.

I'm sorry about that, I didn't see your response.

I made reference to that thread to admonish everyone that this isn't d first time and it's unending. It degenerated to an extent that a non Muslim capitalized on the disunity and later came up with striking questions.
God bless tbaba1234 who provided quality answers.

Let's focus our "energy" on what unites us, the Kalima "Lahi Lah illa Allahu",the prophet (S.A.W), Salaat, saum, Zakat and Hajj.

tunshe:

I feel your pain bro but the truth is that you can't impose your ideology on others.

And if you intend to preach Shia ideology, I think you should open your thread with information about Shia not a controversial one like this.

I used the word LONG because most people don't have time online reading, summarize and strike your points.

I have attended study circles where Shia, Mutazilla, Ahmadiyya, alh Lu Sunna ..... were dissected,so I'm lucky to know my onions. I would rather not join because it's always a no ending discussion.
For newbies in Islam this is surely a path to confusion. That's why I'm still angry with Maclatunji for placing this on Front page on a Friday where over 100,000 people can access.

My dream is Unity in diversity!

Dear brother,
How can you accuse me of "imposing" my aqeedah on anyone? This is what non-muslims used to say all the time about the prophet of Islam whereas Qur'an says :Let there be no force in religion for truth stand out clear from error".
Did I threaten anybody? Did I know the identity of anybody not to mention of Force them to do something? Faith is all about CONVICTION! And acceptance of that faith is unto ALLAH for HE sees our heart. Whoever deceive himself it is his choice and should be ready for the consequences on the day when excuse will be of no use.

Controversial issues?
Is it not possible for Allah, the might to make us ALL one faith? It is indeed! But what will be the essence of free-will and choice? There's controversy everywhere! It leads to violence, deadly attacks, war etc. This is as a result of our free-will. Controversy in religion of Islam started at the death-bed of the prophet of Islam when he wanted to write what will free us from controversy and straying on wrong path. See where it leads us today. So its not a new thing dear brother. Whoever is a seeker of truth, will need to get into controversial talks. I believe you appreciate the work of Sheik Ahma deedat (Ra) and Dr. Zakir Naik? They went through hell of a controversial issues yet they remain strong. Victory is Allah's!

LONG written!
Please note that I didn't post for recognition or display of something. I post for whoever is ready to uncover the truth. It doesn't matter to me whoever takes time to read or whoever doesn't.
Nabi Noah (a.s)preached for 950years according to Qur'an; yet his people turned deaf ears. Even his son and wife betrayed him and turned away from truth. Who am I?
My responsibility is to present a detailed information. Nairaland is however a source of information and it has help a lot who necessarily don't have an account with Nairaland.

You have attended lectures that explore many of Islamic sect. I wonder what the lecturer's ideology is? Nobody can do research for you. You do it yourself since its being assumed you can't deceive your soul! Every scholars tend to defend their aqeedah. But a seeker of truth will try and maintain a balance throughout his quest for truth.

Funny! You don't belong anywhere. That's not possible bro. Your belief in Allah, Justice of God, prophet (s), legacy of prophet...the way you perform ablution, pray etc is SURELY in line with a particular school of thought (madhhab). Within mainstream Sunni, there exist 1000s of differences between Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali, Hanafi, sufis, etc. Practically its not possible. Its just for you to know and determine where you belong.

"On that day We shall raised them according to their Imam" ~Qur'an

"Whoever dies without recognizing the Imam of his time, will die the death of Jahiliyah" ~prophet (s)

Yes I support that "Unity in diversity". But remember this can be achieve if we respect ourselves for individual belief and not castigating some as 'Kafir'.

Wa salam alaykum

tunshe:

I'm sorry about that, I didn't see your response.

I made reference to that thread to admonish everyone that this isn't d first time and it's unending. It degenerated to an extent that a non Muslim capitalized on the disunity and later came up with striking questions.
God bless tbaba1234 who provided quality answers.

Let's focus our "energy" on what unites us, the Kalima "Lahi Lah illa Allahu",the prophet (S.A.W), Salaat, saum, Zakat and Hajj.

No wahala bro. No ill feelings.
Thaba1234 has indeed speaks the truth. Even Qur'an says:
"Come to common terms as between us and you...that there's no god but Allah..."

But some people just don't ready for this unity.

Imam khomeini (r) declared: "if for the unity of muslims, you need to do certain things as others do, do it" (He was actually talking about difference in the way shia and sunni prays).

Sheik Abdurrahman Ahmad (Ansar ud din National missioner) have once said he discovered as the Ameer and Imam of ABU zaria then, many people don't pray behind him. Why? He discovered its because he's a Yoruba man. Tribalism in Religion!

Dear brother, how many times I have chewed my beliefs and embrace my brethren just for the sake of unity? Yet castigations of he's a Shia and he's a kafir and he's using Taqiyah etc persists.

To Allah we shall finally returns.

Salam.

tbaba1234: WHAT SHIA BELIEVE
Al-Majlisî says, "We do not admit any difference between the concept of the Prophethood and that of the Imamate." (Al-Majlisî, Bihâr Al-Anwâr, 26:82; and Al-Kulaynî, Usûl Al-Kâfî, 21:260-263)

Dear brother,
In the Qur'an, Nabi Ibrahim and every members of his family(except the transgressor among them)were bestowed the honour of IMAMAH (Imamate)(Qur'an2 vs 124).

Note that while Nabi Ibrahim was already a prophet(Nabi) and Messenger(Rasul), Allah added an EXALTED POSITION of "Imamah" to his ranks on merit.

The holy prophet (saws) was known as "Imamu al-Mur'salin". His ahl al-bayt (as) being also from the seed of Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) were made Imam (as a result of the prayer of their fore-father -Ibrahim).

IS BEING A PROPHET HIGHEST RANK?
1. Some Prophets are ranked above others (Q2 vs 253). (That ayat does not contradict "We do not differentiate between anyone of the prophets ~Q. 2 vs 285 as this talks about their mission being the same).

Question1: If being a prophet is highest in ranking, why elevating some over others in station?

Question2: If being a prophet is the highest ranking, why was nabi Ibrahim bestowed an exalted position of "IMAMAH"after being a prophet and also requested the same to his prophets sons (and progeny to come)?

2. A Prophet’s duty is thus limited to receiving the Revelation and conveying it to people. In the words of the Qur’an: “So Allah raised Prophets as bearers of good news and as warners.” Q2: 213

The fact that Muhammad (saw) was the last prophet, that made the door of prophet-hood closed but the "duty" continues even till now. And that does not make ATTAINING its spiritual STATION also closed.

The holy prophet said to Ali:

"Your position to me is like the position of
Harun to Musa, except that there will be no
prophet after me." (Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 700)

A STATION ABOVE "PROPHET-HOOD"
Ahlu Sunnah's classical Tafsir Tabari vol. VII p. 132:
The holy Prophet (saws) said: "There are some OUT OF the servants of Allah so that the prophets of Allah and the martyrs ENVY UPON (seeing) their STATUS (STATION)..."

In fact Qur'an gave a sample(Sura al-Imran): The holy lady Mary'am (a.s) and Nabi Zakariyyah (a.s). Mary'am status was so high that Allah feeds her from Himself; upon which Nabi Zakariyyah was amazed and revered her; he (a.s) even prayed to Allah at her Mihrab, to give him son .

How many 'saints' had received good news or news through Angel from God (holy Mary was a good example in the Qur'an) while many prophets did not received a single visitation of the angel. Why? Was mary a prophet?

Our belief is Muhammad is the peak of both prophet (or messenger) and Imam. While the Imams from his ahl al-bayt were also Imam but not prophet but attain the station of prophet-hood.

Books of Ahlu sunnah claims the prophet said: "there are many among his ummah who are greater than prophets of Bani Israel".

Thanks for your time.
Salam

Some are of the opinion that the Infallibility of the holy prophet is limited to "quranic revelation" and believe that he can err and commit mistake like others outside revelation!

And that there exists many hadiths pointed to his mistakes and errors (sahih bukhari and muslims among others are replete of them).

REFUTATION
How can such a notion be accepted while you still adhere to his (saws) hadith (sayings) and practice (sunnah) at all matters? Is his hadith and sunnah also "revelations from God"?
If yes then how do you confirm which talk or practice of Muhammad (saws) is from God at every given time?
The fact that Allah has declared: "WHATEVER the prophet order you take it. WHATEVER he forbids you leave it". Then the argument is closed. Otherwise you are doubting his (saws) authentic sayings and actions.

Any hadith however, and in wherever books they are, reporting "mistakes", "errors", sins" on the personality of Muhammad (saws), we believe such report hadiths were fabricated by the Umayyad's camps to degrade the holy prophet's personalities and to justify their useless lifestyles recorded in history.

Shi'a believe that anytime, anywhere, any place the holy prophet (saws) is being protected from sins, errors and mistakes, by His Lord.

WHAT ABOUT THE AHL AL-BAYT (HOUSE-HOLD)?

Holy prophet (saws) said:
"I leave behind two weighty things, if you ADHERE to them, you will not go astray; BOOK OF GOD and my AHL AL-BAYT. Both will NEVER part from each other until they meet me at the pool of kawthar (in paradise)" (sahih Muslim, Tirmidhi, etc)

If we believe Qur'an is free from error, why should the holy prophet pair his "ahl al-bayt" with protected, error-free Qur'an had it been the ahl al-bayt are not free from mistakes, errors and sins?

Besides, he (saws) said they will never part each other till Qiyamah. If ahl al-bayt are not free from error, mistake and sin, then "...will never part (stray) from book of God" is of no value.
We believe they've been protected also by Allah.

Peace be upon the holy Muhammad and his purified ahl al-bayt.

Salam.