Why do I need to defend my programming language, is it under attack?

logica:

Actually I have seen some very nice desktop applications developed in Java (such as Limewire - but you can bet they are not using the standard AWT/Swing APIs, but some custom APIs), but yeah (like any experienced Java developer should know), the power of Java doesn't lie in desktop apps.

so where does it lie, what are those things u are able to do in java that makes you feel it's so powerful.
maybe i may be able to achieve the same feat in my language with less coding.

^^^ Java rules in server side development. Especially when developing medium to complex systems

I am yet to see things java will do in server side development that php is lacking.
why dont we talk about what we can do in one language and cant do in others.

to me, all these languages are pretty much the same thing, just that some can be noticably slow compared to others

webdezzi:

I am yet to see things java will do in server side development that php is lacking.

hmm how will you do Multithreading in PHP ?

webdezzi:

why dont we talk about what we can do in one language and cant do in others.

You are right. So let me start.

How can you do Asynchronous messaging or Multithreading in PHP

How will you go about developing a thick client using only PHP (a PHP equivalent of a java Applet)

well, you can fork out child processes that can run independently using php's pcntl_fork()
the child process can outlive the script that created it
how you design the logic depends on you. you have what it takes.


http://uk.php.net/manual/en/ref.pcntl.php

java applets? i will rather use flash. it's faster and does not need to spare 5 minutes to load the JVM

Is that threading function inbuilt into the PHP languague ?

From what i can see from that link. It looks like the function provides you with a way of forking a child process and interacting with it at a very basic level.

For more complex multithreaded systems you will need concepts like locks, semaphore, mutexes, thread pools etc.

You are right about Applets and i think it sucks too (BTW i think flash sucks too) but it is still a feature available in Java that is not present in PHP.

How about asynchronous messaging ?

well, i guess it calls some underlying system's functions.

am not totally sure i know what you understand by asynchronous messaging, but once you can create a process that can run independently
definitely, it's left to you to build the logic. you can bind the process(now a daemon) to a port number on ur server and you can comunicate with the process.

(same process used by hackers to start a process on a victim machine, then use netcat or other port listeners to comunicate with the attacked system)

Why don't you google "asynchronous messaging"? I'll give you a hint and mention WebSphere MQ (formerly MQ Series).

In any case, how well does PHP scale? If you don't know what I mean by scaling, you can google that too.

@webdezzi

Check here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message-oriented_middleware

candylips:

^^^ Java rules in server side development. Especially when developing medium to complex systems

Last century, that was true. These days, .NET rules.

Beaf:

Last century, that was true. These days, .NET rules.

Apparently, you don't know what a century is, or you are one of those whose MO is unnecessary exaggerations. Either way, it's not worth it joining issues with you.

logica:

Apparently, you don't know what a century is, or you are one of those whose MO is unnecessary exaggerations. Either way, it's not worth it joining issues with you.

What exaggeration? Last century ended in 1999.

The focus should solutions derived from programming languages and not bragging about programming languages.

You may know everything about a programming knowledge without being able to use that programming knowledge to develop anything useful.

And this is where we fail. All theory and no practical solutions. Technology in itself can't do much, it is what you make out of it that matters.

Beaf:

What exaggeration? Last century ended in 1999.

Anybody who knows enough about the development of Java as a language will tell you that Java was actually considered even stronger on the client-side (applets) than on the server-side circa 1999. At the moment, the client-side is almost done with, and it has matured into a solid server-side development language.

logica:

Anybody who knows enough about the development of Java as a language will tell you that Java was actually considered even stronger on the client-side (applets) than on the server-side circa 1999. At the moment, the client-side is almost done with, and it has matured into a solid server-side development language.

Its is more complicated than that. Both java applets and activex were a conduit for security problems, so they fell out of favour. That left desktop java to compete with other technologies; java products turned out to be slow and ugly (a no-no for users), so java was ditched as a desktop technology. That leaves the internet; in the beginning, there was j this and j that, but all quickly lost out to ease of use, security and performance etc of ASP.NET (to all who could afford steep MS lisences). Finally leaving java to exist primarily on linux servers, where it has the advantage of being free. . . But Mono is gaining useful market share here as well.

All the above is not to say java doesn't have its strengths, the latest incarnation seems to have caught up with C#'s performance in some areas, but its too little, too late. It has a mountain to climb in functionality; perhaps java can still make a place for itself in poorer countries where no one can argue with the price of free; but for quality? Its been left behind.

am not going to start bragging.
but trust me, I have my facts.

if u ready n u know u trust java, come up with a simple java gui app that will fetch http://www.google.com.ng and save it's content in save.html in the the current directory.

I will come with mine in my language, then let peeps run both.

am out of here!

Beaf:

Its is more complicated than that. Both java applets and activex were a conduit for security problems, so they fell out of favour.

See, the problem is you don't know enough about Java. Applets were considered safe because of the sandbox model, but fell out of favor because they were what you would consider fat clients (and of course with all the attendant draw-backs). ActiveX clients were usually avoided like the plague back in the day because of the security concerns, but not applets.

logica:

See, the problem is you don't know enough about Java. Applets were considered safe because of the sandbox model, but fell out of favor because they were what you would consider fat clients (and of course with all the attendant draw-backs). ActiveX clients were usually avoided like the plague back in the day because of the security concerns, but not applets.

Haha.
Nobody even knew about this until last year http://slightlyrandombrokenthoughts..com/2008/12/calendar-bug.html
That was from an unsigned applet. Signed applets are just as dangerous as activex (maybe even more so, since they have the power of standalone programs. . . in your browser! ).

Beaf:

Haha.
Nobody even knew about this until last year http://slightlyrandombrokenthoughts..com/2008/12/calendar-bug.html
That was from an unsigned applet. Signed applets are just as dangerous as activex (maybe even more so, since they have the power of standalone programs. . . in your browser! ).

Yes, signed applets CAN be as dangerous as ActiveX, but the signature is about trust. If you do not trust the author of the applet, you have the option of not allowing the applet to load. I don't know how ActiveX security is being handled now, but back then it was a nightmare as there was no comparable security model to the signature/sandbox model used by applets.

webdezzi:

if u ready n u know u trust java, come up with a simple java gui app that will fetch http://www.google.com.ng and save it's content in save.html in the the current directory.

are u talking about desktop gui. if you are then i will be the first to say java sucks in destop gui. If you are developing windows desktop gui. The undisputed champion is .NET

but if you are talking about a web gui while java might not be the most ideal. there are some pretty cool java tech that will make it very easy to develop.

But like i have said Java is most powerful in the server side so if you think PHP can match it. Lets discuss.

Beaf:

Last century, that was true. These days, .NET rules.

I get it .Net is like a better clone of Java and while .Net simplified a lot of language features. Java is catching up very fast. For example .Net introduced a pretty solid Threading package but Java caught up in Java 1.6 and is set to surpass it in 1.7 with a package for Parallel programming.

From an architectural standpoint Java has an edge because you have many target platform deployment options- (most medium to large companies run a unix type platform on the server side). Also there are many more very good Java Developers (and many more interesting Projects)and from my experience some of the better .Net developers were actually previously Java guys.

And the Java open source community is in a different league  when compared to what is available in .NET.

webdezzi:

if u ready n u know u trust java, come up with a simple java gui app that will fetch http://www.google.com.ng and save it's content in save.html in the the current directory.

are u talking about desktop gui. if you are then i will be the first to say java sucks in destop gui. If you are developing windows desktop gui. The undisputed champion is .NET

but if you are talking about a web gui while java might not be the most ideal. there are some pretty cool java tech that will make it very easy to develop.

But like i have said Java is most powerful in the server side so if you think PHP can match it. Lets discuss.

Beaf:

Last century, that was true. These days, .NET rules.

I get it .Net is like a better clone of Java and while .Net simplified a lot of language features. Java is catching up very fast. For example .Net introduced a pretty solid Threading package but Java caught up in Java 1.6 and is set to surpass it in 1.7 with a package for Parallel programming.

From an architectural standpoint Java has an edge because you have many target platform deployment options- (most medium to large companies run a unix type platform on the server side). Also there are many more very good Java Developers (and many more interesting Projects)and from my experience some of the better .Net developers were actually previously Java guys.

And the Java open source community is in a different league when compared to what is available in .NET.

candylips:

. . .Also there are many more very good Java Developers (and many more interesting Projects)and from my experience some of the better .Net developers were actually previously Java guys.

Case closed!!!

Check this http://brizzled.clapper.org/id/93
His CV is here http://www.clapper.org/bmc/resume/resume.html

candylips:

I get it .Net is like a better clone of Java and while .Net simplified a lot of language features. Java is catching up very fast. For example .Net introduced a pretty solid Threading package but Java caught up in Java 1.6 and is set to surpass it in 1.7 with a package for Parallel programming.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd460693(VS.100).aspx

Kobojunkie:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd460693(VS.100).aspx

Good one!

There's also GPU programming support http://blogs.msdn.com/greg_schechter/archive/2008/05/09/a-series-on-gpu-based-effects-for-wpf.aspx 
Java has no GPU support , but there's the luxury of using the power of your graphics card to do heavy lifting (if the functionality is suited) and take load of the CPU. . . Speed your processor intensive apps up to a 100 fold!

are u talking about desktop gui. if you are then i will be the first to say java sucks in destop gui. If you are developing windows desktop gui. The undisputed champion is .NET

since u, a java fan, admits java sucks in the gui environment, I think java has lost in my main point of argument, which is, java (not java gui) sucks in terms of speed. same goes with applet. the time it takes an applet to load can cook beans, even when on local host.


in this age when, a british guy could hack into us nava computers and retrieve top secret information without nasa knowing.
there are many security issues about applets in the security world.

let me give you en example.
since java is able to access ur desktop only after taking permission from the user, then imagine the possibility, what if that trusted site using applets had it's file swapped with a modified version by a system administrator.

whatabout a disgruntled sacked developer who remembered to leave a backdoor behind.

what about the bank who hosted its insurance website on same server he hosted his online banking, an attacker who is able to penetrate through the insurance site may not be able to access the bank's database but can replace the password encryptor applet with a modified version that does the intended task and steals login as well, or even access users computers to gather more info.

to me, java failed in the desktop environment (u admited this), also failed in the web arena.

Kobojunkie:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd460693(VS.100).aspx

Has .NET 4 been released or is it still in beta

webdezzi:

since u, a java fan, admits java sucks in the gui environment, I think java has lost in my main point of argument, which is, java (not java gui) sucks in terms of speed. same goes with applet. the time it takes an applet to load can cook beans, even when on local host.

I like Java but i am more of a fan of the JVM. I know the limitations of Java in the client side that was why i said earlier that it is more useful on the server side. What I am tryin to evalute with you is how PHP is better than Java on the server side

Mind you. it is not all systems that are for  the web. There are a whole lot of complex software systems that do not require any form of GUI or a web front end at all. Interaction is strictly from the command line

candylips:

Has .NET 4 been released or is it still in beta

I like Java but i am more of a fan of the JVM. I know the limitations of Java in the client side that was why i said earlier that it is more useful on the server side. What I am tryin to evalute with you is how PHP is better than Java on the server side

Mind you. it is not all systems that are for the web. There are a whole lot of complex software systems that do not require any form of GUI or a web front end at all. Interaction is strictly from the command line

.NET 3.5 already allows for parallel computing. The current capabilities are getting seriously expanded in .NET 4 with official support for concepts like Software Transactional memory http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going%20Deep/Software-Transactional-Memory-The-Current-State-of-the-Art/
See also http://channel9.msdn.com/tags/concurrency/

If u check around (esp on the web) on issues relating to enterprise application development, references are always being made to J2EE. This framework is used as a benchmark for enterprise applications. .NET is just playing catch up in this aspect application devpt. .NET's framework's strength lies in its aesthetics and making writing applications easier and intuitive by employing drag and drop principles (of which IDEs like NetBeans is now doing).Java is generally regarded as a verbose language.However Java IDE's of nowadays are fast catching up or almost at par with the .NET IDEs in terms of ease of use and developer's experience. Now I'm not saying that you cannot use .NET to build enterprise applications but ask yourself this question, why is J2EE regarded as the de-facto standard in enterprise application development?

Beaf:

.NET 3.5 already allows for parallel computing. The current capabilities are getting seriously expanded in .NET 4 with official support for concepts like Software Transactional memory http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going%20Deep/Software-Transactional-Memory-The-Current-State-of-the-Art/
See also http://channel9.msdn.com/tags/concurrency/

Thats awesome !! never knew that was already in .Net 3.5.

This still doesn't mean i will use .Net though

scottN:

If u check around (esp on the web) on issues relating to enterprise application development, references are always being made to J2EE. This framework is used as a benchmark for enterprise applications. .NET is just playing catch up in this aspect application devpt. .NET's framework's strength lies in its aesthetics and making writing applications easier and intuitive by employing drag and drop principles (of which IDEs like NetBeans is now doing).Java is generally regarded as a verbose language.However Java IDE's of nowadays are fast catching up or almost at par with the .NET IDEs in terms of ease of use and developer's experience. Now I'm not saying that you cannot use .NET to build enterprise applications but ask yourself this question, why is J2EE regarded as the de-facto standard in enterprise application development?

I know you're just joking sha.
Firstly the is no longer anything like J2EE (outmoded) in java's latest incarnation (its now Java EE). You clearly aren't up to date. . . And, sorry .NET is a Developers wet dream.

"Enterprise application development"? Thats where the areas we are currently discussing apply (concurency, parallel computing, GPU support etc). Java has no idea of whats going on in these areas, what exactly do you mean by enterprise application development?

Click on this google search and rejig your thinking on outmoded "J2EE"
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=enterprise%20application%20development&hl=en&rlz=1I7ADSA_en&tbo=1&output=search&tbs=qdr:y

@Beaf

Most of the innovation in Java actually comes from the Open source Community. Sun hasn't done a good job in improving Java in recent years i was actually one of those people happy that about the recent takeover