Like i said earlier on Hadiths books are full of contradictory accounts. I have quoted 4 hadiths earlier on that question the fasting of ashura day. But that from my experience is sadly not enough to make ahlul sunnah probe the truth about the fasting or hadiths books in general. So in a bid to uncover the truth or perhaps learn the truth i will continue my analysis.

Sahih muslim, book of fasting.
Says that Ashura is one of the days of Allah. I don't know if this is true, for it is said that it was the prophet 's personal decision to fast on that day.

Sahih muslim, book of fasting
According to this hadith,even the christians marked the ashura day. Here,the prophet also intended to fast on the 9th of muharram from the next year. If that is the case, then why do muslims still mark ashura fast on 10th? This hadith inform us that the prophet did not get the chance to ever fast on ashura day after the first year because he died shortly after intending to change the date to 9th from the second year onwards. On the contrary, there are many hadiths that tell us the prophet did observe the ashura fast long before Ramadan was prescribed for muslims. These are more contradictions.

Peace

Al-Baqir:
A brother posted several hadith that the holy prophet (saws) entered Madina and saw Jews fasting on the day(10th) of Ashura. Upon asking the jew why they fast, they replied him (saws) because God rescued Moses on that day: whereupon he said: Musa is dearer to me than you do" Then he (saws) also fasted and asked all his companions to do so. He however promised to fast on the 9th and 10th of the following year of the same month to distinguish Muslim from the Jew who only fasted on the 10th. But the prophet died the following year.

www.nairaland.com/1511261/ashura-important-day-all-muslims

So this friend enjoyed all muslims to fast.

MY COMMENT (QUE) TO THE POST:

Salam alaykum dear brother/sister,

According to the hadith you posted, the holy prophet(saws) entered madina and saw the jews fasting...then he promised to fast 9th and 10th the following year as against the 10th he fasted that present year he saw the Jew, but died.

Can you explain what the hadith meant by
"...arrived in Madinah and found the Jews observing fast on the day of ‘Ashura…"?

It is well known that he arrived Madina in the 1st year of Hijra. If this is true, then the hadith is concocted to say he (saws) died the following year.
The holy prophet (saws) died in the 10th year of Hijra.

2ndly, if the hadith meant 9th year perhaps
probably after returning from an expenditure, then I'd like to ask you dear brother what took the holy prophet so long till 9th year he was in Madina before knowing the Jew used to fast on the day of Ashura?

And I'd like to also ask which jewish clan/tribe remained in Madina in the 9th year of Hijrah to tell our blessed prophet it was the day God saved Musa from Fir'aun?

For your information, the only Jewish tribe left was conquered as far back as 7th year of Hijra at the conquest of Khaybar!

3rdly, if truly the fasting on the day of Hijrah is so important for the holy prophet (saws) and his ummah, then it is only reasonable his Lord commanded him rather than a jew telling him."Nor does he speaks of his own accord. It is an inspiration revealed to him..."~Sura Najm.

"It is He who has sent the prophet with the guidance and the religion of truth to be PREVAIL OVER ALL DEEN..." ~sura saff.

NB: I deliberately used the arabic word "deen" which is far beyond 'religion'. It encomprises all aspect of life, practices and spiritual rites.

So how will the holy prophet sent with a perfect religion and guidance followed the practice of the Jew claimed to be Nabi Musa's practice?

Besides, The month in which God delivered the Israelite from pharaoh was Abib (coincided with Rajab)- Deut.16 v 1.) So how could the Jew transfer an event of Abib (Rajab) to Tishri I (muharram) in open defiance of their Torah?

I look forward to your responses before I proceed further on the topic.

Thanks a lot for your time.

Salam.

a. The hadeeth does not state that the Prophet
he found them fasting the same period he
entered Madina. However, when someone
speaks without knowledge he would surely
make stupied conclusion. This is known
method in Arabic language that the writer does
not even have a clue about it. The hadeeth
likes to say: when the Prophet entered the
Madina, he found jews fasting ashoura (i.e. he
arrived and when ashoura came they were
fasting it...).

b. Jews used to calculate Ahsoura based on
solar calander not luner so the day is not the
same every year and hence the day could be in
any month. This is known.

c. The Prophet fasted the day while he was at
Mecca anyhow and what happened in Madina
is a confirmation. This is known in the Sahih
from Ibn Umar and Aisha.

d. The companions who narrated it could be
from the Mursal of companions who narrate
from other companion a known hadeeth to
everyone.

e. There is no one who opposed them when
they narrated these narrations which mean
they are all correct.


May Allah guide us all as we do live an era of
ignorants.

usermane:
Anytime i step into Islam for Muslims. I come for business. I come for truth. I come with evidences and i put aside my ego, willing to eat the humble pie if i happen get proved wrong. That is what "belief" should be about.

Are you a politician?

Al-Baqir:


Salam dear sister,
Sorry gannn if you are hurt. "Truth is better" and the holy prophet (saws) has enjoyed us to say it even if our destruction lie within. If I can open 100 thread on Ashura, by Allah I will.

The first thing Allah gave human being was "Aql" (intellect). Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (a.s) said even if Allah did not send prophet to mankind, his aql would have been used against him on the day of Judgment. Somebody else's knowledge starts where your own ends.

Fasting on the day of Ashura with the belief that its a Sunnah of the prophet on the platform that a JEW for that matter directed him is A MYTH and not reality. In fact its a LIE. Only Allah command and direct Muhammad al-Amin (saws)!

If you fast, Allah will reward or reject you (your acts) according to your intention.

Dear sister, the rate at which the agents of Banu Umayyad continue editing books of hadiths and many valuable books is alarming. I am fond of buying and collecting books, both Old and new editions. Abdullah Yusuf Ali English translation has been edited where many information erased. Tafsir Ibn kathir do not escape from editing. Sahih al-Tirmidhi is not left out. And so on.
And this evil people deliberately do this in order to establish and justify their so-called beliefs.

During the time of Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi sufy'an as the "Sultan(khalifa)" of the time, he hired many hypocrites among the companions of the prophet (saws) (do not raise eye-brow sister, there were many Munafiq among the sahaba -some known and some hidden to the prophet, read Sura al-Tawba and sura Munafiq and several other verses of the holy Qur'an). Mu'awiyah hired them in which they continue fabricating hadiths upon hadith. When he died, his evil son, Yazid continued in his shoes and after the killing of Imam Hussain (a.s), they manage to fabricate several hadith to hide their heinous crime of killing the grandson of their prophet. Among such hadith were hadith on fasting on Ashura.

Have you ever ask yourself what you know about Hussain? In fact many thought he was a twin with Hassan who died at infant. What about her whom the prophet described as "Leader of ALL women past, present and future times", sayyida Fatima (a.s)? Personalities who if you fail to salute and pray for in your salat at every obligatory salat, your salat is void. They deliberately erased them from our memory and substitute them with those...they elevated.

"O ahl al-bayt of the prophet! Your LOVE has been made obligatory in the holy Qur'an...it is enough among your many exalted virtues that if anybody prays without sending blessing on you, his prayer is void" ~Imam Shafi'i (R) commenting on the holy verse:

"Say (O Muhammad)! I do not ask of any reward from you except for the love of my nearest kindred"

No wonder why the holy prophet exclaimed 3 times in the hadith where he said he has left two weighty things for us in "the book of God and his ahl al-bayt"; he concluded saying:

"I warn you concerning my ahl al-bayt" (3times he said).

Today many have been brainwashed to the extent that if you raised objection against sahih al-Bukhari, they will nearly crucify you as if sahih Bukhari is infallible. Such is the act of the Nasibi.

Thanks for your time. May Allah guide us to the right path.

Salam

Salam Al-Baqir, i have read your comments and enthused by your seemingly depth of Shiite theology, but i recommend you thread softly in making pronouncements. As regards Ashoora, you have made some valid arguement concerning the date chronology which i intend to research. I am neither a Shi'a nor a Sunni, but i am a muslim (as in, what the holy prophet taught us). I'll like to comment on the following you wrote ""O ahl al-bayt of the prophet! Your LOVE has been made obligatory in the holy Qur'an...it is enough among your many exalted virtues that if anybody prays without sending blessing on you, his prayer is void" ~Imam Shafi'i (R) " You have condemned some Hadiths, what makes this authentic? In what context was the quranic verse that the commentary follow revealed? The holy prophet made it clear that blood cannot move you forward where your deeds had moved you backward. Let Allah be the judge, you can't be sure your theological belief is the right one. I personally take exception in the part of Shiites belief that Aisha, Umar, Abbas and other non-progenies of the holy prophets are not given credence. While i support healthy discussion on differing opinion on theological beliefs, it should be civil and we should not attempt to discredit opinions of others especially when we were not there when these historical events occurred. I think we should be concerned about the very fundamental undeniable articles of our faith and the very basic sane rules of humanity. W'Allahu a'alam.

usermane: Like i said earlier on Hadiths books are full of contradictory accounts. I have quoted 4 hadiths earlier on that question the fasting of ashura day. But that from my experience is sadly not enough to make ahlul sunnah probe the truth about the fasting or hadiths books in general. So in a bid to uncover the truth or perhaps learn the truth i will continue my analysis.

Sahih muslim, book of fasting.
Says that Ashura is one of the days of Allah. I don't know if this is true, for it is said that it was the prophet 's personal decision to fast on that day.

Sahih muslim, book of fasting
According to this hadith,even the christians marked the ashura day. Here,the prophet also intended to fast on the 9th of muharram the next year. If that is the case, then why do muslims mark ashura fast on 10th. This hadith inform us that the prophet did not get the chance to ever any fast on ashura day because he died shortly after intending to commence it. On the contrary, there are many hadiths that tell us the prophet did observe the ashura fast long before Ramadan was prescribed for muslims. These are more contradictions.

Peace

Brother please go seek for knowledge..... You are talking out of ignorance..... Why told you the Prophet did not fast Ashura?

usermane: Like i said earlier on Hadiths books are full of contradictory accounts. I have quoted 4 hadiths earlier on that question the fasting of ashura day. But that from my experience is sadly not enough to make ahlul sunnah probe the truth about the fasting or hadiths books in general. So in a bid to uncover the truth or perhaps learn the truth i will continue my analysis.

Sahih muslim, book of fasting.
Says that Ashura is one of the days of Allah. I don't know if this is true, for it is said that it was the prophet 's personal decision to fast on that day.

Sahih muslim, book of fasting
According to this hadith,even the christians marked the ashura day. Here,the prophet also intended to fast on the 9th of muharram the next year. If that is the case, then why do muslims mark ashura fast on 10th. This hadith inform us that the prophet did not get the chance to ever any fast on ashura day because he died shortly after intending to commence it. On the contrary, there are many hadiths that tell us the prophet did observe the ashura fast long before Ramadan was prescribed for muslims. These are more contradictions.

Peace

This is how arguement should go, not imposing one's opinion on others. What i have realised about some Hadiths is that there are problems with the placement date in time. Sahih Muslim for example is a student of Bukhari and it is known that he included some events that his teacher excluded because of shaky autheticity.

xclusive43:


a. The hadeeth does not state that the Prophet
he found them fasting the same period he
entered Madina. However, when someone
speaks without knowledge he would surely
make stupied conclusion. This is known
method in Arabic language that the writer does
not even have a clue about it. The hadeeth
likes to say: when the Prophet entered the
Madina, he found jews fasting ashoura (i.e. he
arrived and when ashoura came they were
fasting it...).

b. Jews used to calculate Ahsoura based on
solar calander not luner so the day is not the
same every year and hence the day could be in
any month. This is known.

c. The Prophet fasted the day while he was at
Mecca anyhow and what happened in Madina
is a confirmation. This is known in the Sahih
from Ibn Umar and Aisha.

d. The companions who narrated it could be
from the Mursal of companions who narrate
from other companion a known hadeeth to
everyone.

e. There is no one who opposed them when
they narrated these narrations which mean
they are all correct.


May Allah guide us all as we do live an era of
ignorants.

Dear brother pls don't start the use of 'words'. Let's discuss intellectually! Here's your very 'copy-past' hadith:

"Hazrat Ibn Abbas (Radiyallahu 'anh) reports
that the Holy Prophet (Sallallahu ‘alayhi
wa Sallam) arrived in Madinah and found
the Jews observing fast on the day of
‘Ashura… They said: "It is the day of great
(significance) when Allah delivered Hazrat
Musa ...."
[Sahih Bukhari and Muslim]

1. What does that hadith meant by "arrived Madina"?
2. If its the first year of Hijrah, then how old was Ibn Abbas to witnessed what has happened?
3. Then how come the prophet died the following year (presumably 2nd year of Hijrah when he actually died 10th year)?

4. If its 9th year perhaps "arrived" after an outing, then the heat is more now:

A. Why long wait till 9th year of Hijra before discovering Jewish fasting on the day of Ashura? 1st, 2nd, 3rd...till 8th year of Hijrah. You mean he didn't see them?

B. Which jewish tribe was left in Madina on the 9th year of Hijrah when all of them had either accepted Islam or exiled as far back as the battle of khaybar in the 7th year of Hijra?

5. There are many places in the holy Qur'an where
Allah talks about Musa and Fir'aun. In fact Musa's
story is the most in the entire Qur'an. So has Allah
left "an important day of fasting of Ashura" in the
life-story of Musa without informing His last prophet
until certain JEW told him? Doesn't make any sense
either.
Either the "fast of Ashura" would have been told in
the Qur'an or privately through inspiration to the
prophet by Jubril from his Lord is accepted by
Qur'an and reasoning. Never thru JEW.

Now you wanna talk about ignorance!

Your point B is even worse than point A. Where's your prove that the "Arab Jew" at the time of the prophet (saws) used to calculate their calendar based on SOLAR (sun)? OMG! Very funny dude!

Your point C that he (saws) been fasting in Mecca and that of Madina when he found the jew was only confirmation showed you didn't even digest your hadith. Had it been you did you would have found that these ffg words showed he (saws) did not even have a clue of what 'Ashura day' meant:

"...They said: "It is the day of great
(significance) when Allah delivered Hazrat
Musa ....

Points D, E are guess work. Better luck next try.

Salam.

xclusive43:

Brother please go seek for knowledge..... You are talking out of ignorance..... Why told you the Prophet did not fast Ashura?

Did He? please just provide evidence that he did. Don't discard his opinion. This is how i think we should argue. As i'm writing, i am fasting...but Al-Baqir raised an important point about the time chronology that if true punctured the Hadith about Ashoora in my opinion....but i'm researching it.

Every act of goodness is rewarded. Rewards are given based on the sincerity of the intention. Fasting is the only worship about which Allah has said that He Himself is the reward for it. This means that one develops such a close relationship with Allah that Allah Himself becomes the helper.
Abu Hurairah relates that the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "Allah, the Lord of Honor and glory says: All other deeds of man are for himself, but his fasting is purely for Me and I shall reward him for it. The fast is a shield. When any of you is fasting he should abstain from loose talk and noisy exchanges. Should anyone revile him or seek to pick a quarrel with him, he should respond with: I am observing a fast. By Him in Whose hands is the life of Muhammad, the breath of one who is fasting is purer in the sight of Allah than the fragrance of musk. One who fasts experiences two joys: he is joyful when he breaks his fast, and he is joyful by virtue of his fast when he meets his Lord" (Bukhari and Muslim).
Sa'ad Ibn Sahl relates that the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "There is a gate of Paradise called Rayyan through which only those will enter on the Day of Judgment who are regular in observing the fast and no one else. A call will go forth: Where are those who observed the fast regularly? And they will step forth and no one beside them will enter through that gate. After they shall have entered, the gate will be closed and no one else will enter thereby" (Bukhari and Muslim).
Abu Sa'id Khudri relates that the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "When a servant of Allah observes the fast for a day for the sake of Allah, He thereby repels the Fire from him a distance of seventy years of journeying" (Bukhari and Muslim).
Abu Hurairah relates that the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "He who observes the fast during Ramadhan out of sincerity of faith and in hope of earning merit will have his past sins forgiven him" (Bukhari and Muslim).
Abu Hurairah relates that the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "When Ramadhan arrives the gates of Paradise are opened and the gates of hell are locked up and satans are put in chains" (Bukhari and Muslim)

only fool will throw away the benefits fasting just to spite Sunnis

babylolaroy: Al baqir, usermane supported you.are you happy nau?
i hate to av a clash with you cos av held yu in high esteem buh yu dey Bleep up..This is like the 2nd or 3rd thread yu r opening on this Ashura matter.. Let those who will fast do so nd let you who wont, do so too..so whats d publicity all about
besides weda d fast is recommended or not, sawm cannot be bid'a. it falls under nafila. so if anyone does it, count it as nafila nd enuf of ds already

. it can be bid'ah if it is fasted with the intention of gaining d reward which was not prescribed by d prophet (saw).I.e if it was truly not

prescribed by d prophet. Wallahu Allam

Sahih Bukhari book, 31, 3223.
In this hadith, the jews did not fast on ashura day to mark the exodus, ashura day was rather a day of celebration, a day to be merry for them. Didn't Imam muslim just say that the jews used to fast on ashura day?

Sahih Bukhari,book of fasting,3147.
Fasting as i understand commences from dawn till sunset. How come even those who had been eating even after sunrise were asked to stop eating till sunset? Did they not intend to fast or didn't the news reach them before morning that the following day was ashura day?

Sahih bukhari, book of fasting,3116.
If the reward for fasting on this day was so huge as today traditional muslims claim, why then did Abdullah who was suppose to be a sahaba stop fasting on it after Ramadan fasting was prescribed. Yet he observed voluntary fasting? Could it be that after Ramadan fast was prescribed, fasting on ashura day was no more special than fasting on any other day of the year?

I think i will stop here. My food is getting cold. These discrepancies are significant enough to discredit hadith books or ashura day fasting. Funny enough,the average muslim is unaware of all these. All they know is that they ought to fast on ashura day and a tremendous reward await them. I haven't even come across a single hadith that ask for fasting also a day before or a day after the ashura yet. I believe if the hadiths were from God, we wouldn't find in them a single contradiction(Qur'an 4:82). God reject blind faith, we must confirm anything we hear or read before accepting it(Qur'an 17:36, 10:100). Nothing concern us with what our fore fathers, Imams of the past did. We are responsible for ourselves just as they are responsible for themselves.

Al-qaim:


Dear brother pls don't start the use of 'words'. Let's discuss intellectually! Here's your very 'copy-past' hadith:

"Hazrat Ibn Abbas (Radiyallahu 'anh) reports
that the Holy Prophet (Sallallahu ‘alayhi
wa Sallam) arrived in Madinah and found
the Jews observing fast on the day of
‘Ashura… They said: "It is the day of great
(significance) when Allah delivered Hazrat
Musa ...."
[Sahih Bukhari and Muslim]

1. What does that hadith meant by "arrived Madina"?
2. If its the first year of Hijrah, then how old was Ibn Abbas to witnessed what has happened?
3. Then how come the prophet died the following year (presumably 2nd year of Hijrah when he actually died 10th year)?

4. If its 9th year perhaps "arrived" after an outing, then the heat is more now:

A. Why long wait till 9th year of Hijra before discovering Jewish fasting on the day of Ashura? 1st, 2nd, 3rd...till 8th year of Hijrah. You mean he didn't see them?

B. Which jewish tribe was left in Madina on the 9th year of Hijrah when all of them had either accepted Islam or exiled as far back as the battle of khaybar in the 7th year of Hijra?

5. There are many places in the holy Qur'an where
Allah talks about Musa and Fir'aun. In fact Musa's
story is the most in the entire Qur'an. So has Allah
left "an important day of fasting of Ashura" in the
life-story of Musa without informing His last prophet
until certain JEW told him? Doesn't make any sense
either.
Either the "fast of Ashura" would have been told in
the Qur'an or privately through inspiration to the
prophet by Jubril from his Lord is accepted by
Qur'an and reasoning. Never thru JEW.

Now you wanna talk about ignorance!

Your point B is even worse than point A. Where's your prove that the "Arab Jew" at the time of the prophet (saws) used to calculate their calendar based on SOLAR (sun)? OMG! Very funny dude!

Your point C that he (saws) been fasting in Mecca and that of Madina when he found the jew was only confirmation showed you didn't even digest your hadith. Had it been you did you would have found that these ffg words showed he (saws) did not even have a clue of what 'Ashura day' meant:

"...They said: "It is the day of great
(significance) when Allah delivered Hazrat
Musa ....

Points D, E are guess work. Better luck next try.

Salam.

1– You shites think that this means
that as soon as he arrived at Madinah, he,
peace be upon him, found them then fasting
Ashuraa, like the next day or the next week.
This is a strange claim, because the Hadeeths
do not say that at all, but only say that AFTER
Hijrah, which is the context of ‘Lamma
Qadima’, the Prophet found the Jews fasting
this day, i.e., when the next Muharram came
not that he, peace be upon him, made Hijrah
during Muharram or that the first week he was
in Madinah, the Jews were fasting the tenth of
Muharram on the tenth of Rabi Awwal. When
the Jews fasted Ashuraa in the next Muharram,
the Prophet salla-llahu alaihi wa-sallam, who
used to fast it in Makkah, was told that the
Jews fasted it because it is the day when Allah
saved Musa and his people from Pharaoh and
his people. This is when he, peace be upon
him, ordered Muslims to fast it, whereas
before that it was optional, saying that he has
more right to observe it than the Jews. After
Ramadhan was ordained in the second year of
Hijrah, the fasting of Ashura became optional.

2-ibn Abbas was 4 years old.. Let's consider he is not
exactly the most reliable resource. Ibn Abas, Abu Hurraira, Abu Musa al
ashari and Muawiya are the narrators who
claim that the prophet recommended the fast
of Ashura. … Thus, can you label Muawiya as
being a reliable source?” Indeed, all of the
Prophet’s companions are truthful,
trustworthy, and far more intelligent and pious
than those who question their character.
5- Fasting on 'Ashura' was a gradual step in the
process of introducing fasting as a prescribed
obligation in Islam. Fasting appeared in three
forms. When the Messenger of Allah ( peace and
blessings of Allah be upon him) came to
Madinah, he told the Muslims to fast on three
days of every month and on the day of
'Ashura' , then Allah made fasting obligatory
when He said (interpretation of the meaning): "
… observing the fasting is prescribed for
you … " [ Al-Qur'an 2:183] [Ahkam al-Qur'an
by al-Jassas, part 1]
The obligation was transferred from the fast of
'Ashura' to the fast of Ramadhan , and this one
of the proofs in the field of Usul al-Fiqh that it
is possible to abrogate a lighter duty in favour
of a heavier duty.
Before the obligation of fasting 'Ashura' was
abrogated, fasting on this day was obligatory,
as can be seen from the clear command to
observe this fast. Then it was further
confirmed later on, then reaffirmed by making
it a general command addressed to everybody,
and once again by instructing mothers not to
breastfeed their infants during this fast. It was
reported from Ibn Mas'ud that when fasting
Ramadhan was made obligatory, the obligation
to fast 'Ashura' was lifted, i.e., it was no longer
obligatory to fast on this day, but it is still
desirable (mustahabb).

Soon reply the other numbers

Never can a sane person [Muslim] engage on a thread like this.

Walking away searching for the beneficial stuff else where.

vedaxcool:

only fool will throw away the benefits fasting just to spite Sunnis

Vedaxcool,
Your point I think has contradicted your conclusion.
I agreed with u on the quoted page which reads:
"Every act of goodness is rewarded. Rewards are given based on the sincerity of the intention...."

Then there's an hadith by Umar b. Al-khattab:
"Action shall be judge according to intention..."

Fasting on the day of Ashura with the intention of JEW telling or direct the prophet is Batil.

How many acts of prophetic Sunnah has Sunni changed just to be different from Shi'a!

Akiika:
Salam Al-Baqir, i have read your comments and enthused by your seemingly depth of Shiite theology, but i recommend you thread softly in making pronouncements. As regards Ashoora, you have made some valid arguement concerning the date chronology which i intend to research. I am neither a Shi'a nor a Sunni, but i am a muslim (as in, what the holy prophet taught us). I'll like to comment on the following you wrote ""O ahl al-bayt of the prophet! Your LOVE has been made obligatory in the holy Qur'an...it is enough among your many exalted virtues that if anybody prays without sending blessing on you, his prayer is void" ~Imam Shafi'i (R) " You have condemned some Hadiths, what makes this authentic? In what context was the quranic verse that the commentary follow revealed? The holy prophet made it clear that blood cannot move you forward where your deeds had moved you backward. Let Allah be the judge, you can't be sure your theological belief is the right one. I personally take exception in the part of Shiites belief that Aisha, Umar, Abbas and other non-progenies of the holy prophets are not given credence. While i support healthy discussion on differing opinion on theological beliefs, it should be civil and we should not attempt to discredit opinions of others especially when we were not there when these historical events occurred. I think we should be concerned about the very fundamental undeniable articles of our faith and the very basic sane rules of humanity. W'Allahu a'alam.

Excellent.

xclusive43:

Brother please go seek for knowledge..... You are talking out of ignorance..... Why told you the Prophet did not fast Ashura?

Cool down,cool down. Relax,control yourself. You don't need to ask me Jamb questions. Ok, it was sahih muslim, ibn Abbass made that report in book 6 Fasting, hadith no. 2528.
I think i missed something though. To be correct it seem he did fast on only one ashura day, he then changed ashura to 9th muharram as from the next year instead of 10th but died before the next year. Then why after this are sunnis still marking ashura on tenth if the prophet changed it to 9th before he died?

All the hadiths i cited, i gave references. Get the pdf version of Sahih Muslim and Bukhari. These hadiths you can find by typing "ashura" in the search or find box because their numberings are inconsistent sometimes.

usermane:

Cool down,cool down. Relax,control yourself. You don't need to ask me Jamb questions. Ok, it was sahih muslim, ibn Abbass made that report in book 6 Fasting, hadith no. 2528.
I think i missed something though. To be correct it seem he did fast on only one ashura day, he then changed ashura to 9th muharram as from the next year instead of 10th but died before the next year. Then why after this are sunnis still marking ashura on tenth if the prophet changed it to 9th before he died?

All the hadiths i cited, i gave references. Get the pdf version of Sahih Muslim and Bukhari. These hadiths you can find by typing "ashoura " in the search or find box because their numberings are inconsistent sometimes.

Please get this right... The Prophet has been fasting ashoura since before he migrated to Medina.... And he did not change the date of ashura... He only told us to and wanted to fast tasu'a which is on the 9th of muharram but Allah did not spear his life to fast tasu'a..

Al-qaim:


Vedaxcool,
Your point I think has contradicted your conclusion.
I agreed with u on the quoted page which reads:
"Every act of goodness is rewarded. Rewards are given based on the sincerity of the intention...."

Then there's an hadith by Umar b. Al-khattab:
"Action shall be judge according to intention..."

Fasting on the day of Ashura with the intention of JEW telling or direct the prophet is Batil.

How many acts of prophetic Sunnah has Sunni changed just to be different from Shi'a!

So the Shia started practising Islam and the Sunnis broke away from them and changed those practises to be different?
There should be a limit to falsehood
I believe that it is the Sunnis that introduced the name of Ali(RA) into the Adhan? Right!

Al-qaim:

NB: Sunni believe Muhammad's infallibility is limited to revelation. Aside that they believe he can make mistake or seek people's advice. Shi'a reject all this. (www.nairaland.com/1480939/concept-infallibility-isma). Kindly read all the comments and replies to them also.

Shias claim Prophets and their Imams never err
But that thread supplied evidenceS to the contrary from the Qur'an that Prophets erred and sought forgiveness

Al-qaim:

Has Allah not repeatedly told the story of Musa and Fir'aun with the escape of Bani Israel in the Qur'an? Several verses were revealed on these events alone. Musa was mentioned in the Qur'an more than any other prophet for that matter. If there's an important fasting synchronize with the day Musa escaped from Fir'aun, Allah would have revealed it either in the Qur'an or personally for His prophet (saws).

Really?
Shia too stone adulterers - where is it in the Qur'an?
And the Shia central concept of imamate is not in the Qur'an.
Please don't bring those circumstantial evidences (verses).
When it suits you, you guys claim everything should be in the Qur'an

xclusive43:

Please get this right... The Prophet has been fasting ashoura since before he migrated to Medina.... And he did not change the date of ashura... He only told us to and wanted to fast tasu'a which is on the 9th of muharram but Allah did not spear his life to fast tasu'a..

Ok,can you tell us why some muslims fast either 8th and 9th or 9th and 10th while others fast 9th and 10th or 10th and 11th?

Also have you seen the hadith that tells us the ashura day was like Eid day for the Jews, how about your claim that the Jews fasted on that day? Also what can you say about Aisha 's hadith that Quraysh tribe some of whom were pagans, fasted on Ashura days during the Pre Islamic period?
Also, assuming the Prophet did fast on Ashura day before migrating to medina, why after meeting the Jews fasting did he make an order for muslims to fast on that day?

In summary, it is difficult, if not impossible to reach a conclusion about when Ashura day fasting debuted or the reason for which ashura day should be marked with a fast.

babylolaroy: al baqir, yu cant ever do away with long epistles. let someone just utter a letter, yu v written a page. dnt bother to thank me for my time cos i couldnt finish it buh i grab ur point.

since we rnt gonna agree on same thing, i ll just say to yu be ur believe and to me be mine

salamu alaykum, i am amazed that you guys are still dragging issues with all this shiit guys. People who insult aisha, abubakar and umar r.a, calling them people of hell. They misguided and you have to be careful not to let them misgiude you too. As long as islam is cocerned, sahih bukhari and muslim are the second most authentic book after the qur'an. Most of the shiits are not muslim because there calima has taken them away from the fold of islam. They say aisha ra is a prostitute. Ask them what is there origin. So there brothers and sisters, leave those guys alone because they only believe in there books and not the books of authority in islam.

xclusive43:

Brother please go seek for knowledge..... You are talking out of ignorance..... Why told you the Prophet did not fast Ashura?

its true dear brother. The prophet the following year when he intended to observe the fast..That means he gave it approval buh was not opportuned to ever fast it

Allahu alam

Slitz: . it can be bid'ah if it is fasted with the intention of gaining d reward which was not prescribed by d prophet (saw).I.e if it was truly not

prescribed by d prophet. Wallahu Allam

i understand your point mashaAllah buh i wanna differ. i believe (my belief) that any type of fast is nafila if its not ramadhan. Am nt talking of the ashura on ground o...generally if dia is a fast the prophet didnot recommend, i think its 'fastable' now once yur intent is to gain a reward nd not to innovate..say maybe we can use a nafila fast to beg Allah..or yu just feel like fasting on a good ordinary TUESDAY for absolutely no reason...


pls let no one ansa me o except the person i address this to..pls and pls. i dnt want a debate with anybody

kaybyte: salamu alaykum, i am amazed that you guys are still dragging issues with all this shiit guys. People who insult aisha, abubakar and umar r.a, calling them people of hell. They misguided and you have to be careful not to let them misgiude you too. As long as islam is cocerned, sahih bukhari and muslim are the second most authentic book after the qur'an. Most of the shiits are not muslim because there calima has taken them away from the fold of islam. They say aisha ra is a prostitute. Ask them what is there origin. So there brothers and sisters, leave those guys alone because they only believe in there books and not the books of authority in islam.

you don't deserve to be answered or helped.you should help yourself because your ignorance stems out of nonsense.research and reach a certain level that can merit answers from us and to engage you in discussion.

May Subhanahu wa Ta'ala guide us to the right path

xclusive43:
1– You shites think that this means
that as soon as he arrived at Madinah, he,
peace be upon him, found them then fasting
Ashuraa, like the next day or the next week.
This is a strange claim, because the Hadeeths
do not say that at all, but only say that AFTER
Hijrah, which is the context of ‘Lamma
Qadima’, the Prophet found the Jews fasting
this day, i.e., when the next Muharram came
not that he, peace be upon him, made Hijrah
during Muharram or that the first week he was
in Madinah, the Jews were fasting the tenth of
Muharram on the tenth of Rabi Awwal. When
the Jews fasted Ashuraa in the next Muharram,
the Prophet salla-llahu alaihi wa-sallam, who
used to fast it in Makkah, was told that the
Jews fasted it because it is the day when Allah
saved Musa and his people from Pharaoh and
his people. This is when he, peace be upon
him, ordered Muslims to fast it, whereas
before that it was optional, saying that he has
more right to observe it than the Jews. After
Ramadhan was ordained in the second year of
Hijrah, the fasting of Ashura became optional.

2-ibn Abbas was 4 years old.. Let's consider he is not
exactly the most reliable resource. Ibn Abas, Abu Hurraira, Abu Musa al
ashari and Muawiya are the narrators who
claim that the prophet recommended the fast
of Ashura. … Thus, can you label Muawiya as
being a reliable source?” Indeed, all of the
Prophet’s companions are truthful,
trustworthy, and far more intelligent and pious
than those who question their character.
5- Fasting on 'Ashura' was a gradual step in the
process of introducing fasting as a prescribed
obligation in Islam. Fasting appeared in three
forms. When the Messenger of Allah ( peace and
blessings of Allah be upon him) came to
Madinah, he told the Muslims to fast on three
days of every month and on the day of
'Ashura' , then Allah made fasting obligatory
when He said (interpretation of the meaning): "
… observing the fasting is prescribed for
you … " [ Al-Qur'an 2:183] [Ahkam al-Qur'an
by al-Jassas, part 1]
The obligation was transferred from the fast of
'Ashura' to the fast of Ramadhan , and this one
of the proofs in the field of Usul al-Fiqh that it
is possible to abrogate a lighter duty in favour
of a heavier duty.
Before the obligation of fasting 'Ashura' was
abrogated, fasting on this day was obligatory,
as can be seen from the clear command to
observe this fast. Then it was further
confirmed later on, then reaffirmed by making
it a general command addressed to everybody,
and once again by instructing mothers not to
breastfeed their infants during this fast. It was
reported from Ibn Mas'ud that when fasting
Ramadhan was made obligatory, the obligation
to fast 'Ashura' was lifted, i.e., it was no longer
obligatory to fast on this day, but it is still
desirable (mustahabb).

Soon reply the other numbers

Salam,
To your points:
Point1. I don't need to comment on personal theories.

2. Al-hamdulillah for once you agree Abdullah Ibn Abbas (R) was not credible to report the hadith because of his age. Then why lying against him (r)? and this has suggested you concur the "arrival" was the 1st year of Hijrah otherwise you wouldn't have submit on Ibn Abbas just like that. Telling me its for the sake of argument do not hold.

Other reporters:
Abu Musa al-Ashari came from the tribe of Ashar in Yemen. He converted to Islam before Hijra and since that day till khaybar (7th year Hijrah), he was no where to be found. The prophet sent him back to Yemen to spread Islam and he was never with the holy prophet in the 1st year of Hijra.

Abu hurayra converted to Islam 3years before the demise of the holy prophet(saws) in Sham (Syria) and was only seen in Madina after khaybar which occured in 7th year hijra. If one werent at the event then how can one narrate what happened?

Muawiyyah converted to Islam in the 8th year of hijra which was 7th yr after the mentioning of the hadith relating to Ashura.
Besides can one label Mu'awiya a reliable source? Somebody whom the holy prophet (saws) said: "“At the time of his death, Mu’awiyah shall not be counted as member of my Muslim Ummah.” (Al- Tabari, Muhammad ibn Jarir. Ta'rikh Al-Rusul Wa'l-
Muluk(Vol. 8, Pg. 186; Imam Nasai was killed in Sham because of a single hadith he narrated on Mu'awiyah where Rasul cursed him))

NB: Please how can you say ALL the sahaba of the prophet (saws) are righteous?

ON SAHABA!
Shi'a stand on general sahaba is that: Not ALL of them were righteous. Qur'an exposed some of Munafiq among them to the point that some were unknown to the prophet; Allah said only Him know them (sura Tawbah vs 101).
Qur'an, hadith and History even reveal those who apostatized among them after the death of the prophet.
And truly there were many righteous steadfast role-model personalities among them.

Let me give you a peep:

Ala b. Al-Musayyab narrated from his father, who said: "I met al-Bara'a ibn Azib and said to him: "You are fortunate, you were a companion of the prophet and paid allegiance to him under the tree". Whereupon he said: "'My nephew, you do not know what we INNOVATED after him" (al-Bukhari vol. 5 p. 66)

Allah knew many of them will violate their oath; hence he warned:
"Those who paid allegiance to you in fact pay allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands. And WHOEVER VIOLATES that oath has done so against his own(self)~Q48:10"

Also prophet fore-told:
"On the day of resurrection you will be grabbed from the left, and I will say: 'where are they (being taken) to?' It will be said: "To Hell, by God. ' I will say: "my Lord! These are my companions'. It will be said: 'You do not know what they did after you. From the time you left them they never ceased to apostatize. ' I will say: 'Away with him, away with him, woe to him who changed things after me. And I do not see anyone of them being saved except that he will be like a forlorn sheep".
(Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 7 p. 209, vol 4 p. 94, 156; Muslim vol. 7 p. 66).

To your last theories:

Brother, ain't gonna take those theories dogmatically. Prove with concrete evidence inkuntum sadiqin.

Salam.

xclusive43:
1– You shites think that this means
that as soon as he arrived at Madinah, he,
peace be upon him, found them then fasting
Ashuraa, like the next day or the next week.
This is a strange claim, because the Hadeeths
do not say that at all, but only say that AFTER
Hijrah, which is the context of ‘Lamma
Qadima’, the Prophet found the Jews fasting
this day, i.e., when the next Muharram came
not that he, peace be upon him, made Hijrah
during Muharram or that the first week he was
in Madinah, the Jews were fasting the tenth of
Muharram on the tenth of Rabi Awwal. When
the Jews fasted Ashuraa in the next Muharram,
the Prophet salla-llahu alaihi wa-sallam, who
used to fast it in Makkah, was told that the
Jews fasted it because it is the day when Allah
saved Musa and his people from Pharaoh and
his people. This is when he, peace be upon
him, ordered Muslims to fast it, whereas
before that it was optional, saying that he has
more right to observe it than the Jews. After
Ramadhan was ordained in the second year of
Hijrah, the fasting of Ashura became optional.

2-ibn Abbas was 4 years old.. Let's consider he is not
exactly the most reliable resource. Ibn Abas, Abu Hurraira, Abu Musa al
ashari and Muawiya are the narrators who
claim that the prophet recommended the fast
of Ashura. … Thus, can you label Muawiya as
being a reliable source?” Indeed, all of the
Prophet’s companions are truthful,
trustworthy, and far more intelligent and pious
than those who question their character.
5- Fasting on 'Ashura' was a gradual step in the
process of introducing fasting as a prescribed
obligation in Islam. Fasting appeared in three
forms. When the Messenger of Allah ( peace and
blessings of Allah be upon him) came to
Madinah, he told the Muslims to fast on three
days of every month and on the day of
'Ashura' , then Allah made fasting obligatory
when He said (interpretation of the meaning): "
… observing the fasting is prescribed for
you … " [ Al-Qur'an 2:183] [Ahkam al-Qur'an
by al-Jassas, part 1]
The obligation was transferred from the fast of
'Ashura' to the fast of Ramadhan , and this one
of the proofs in the field of Usul al-Fiqh that it
is possible to abrogate a lighter duty in favour
of a heavier duty.
Before the obligation of fasting 'Ashura' was
abrogated, fasting on this day was obligatory,
as can be seen from the clear command to
observe this fast. Then it was further
confirmed later on, then reaffirmed by making
it a general command addressed to everybody,
and once again by instructing mothers not to
breastfeed their infants during this fast. It was
reported from Ibn Mas'ud that when fasting
Ramadhan was made obligatory, the obligation
to fast 'Ashura' was lifted, i.e., it was no longer
obligatory to fast on this day, but it is still
desirable (mustahabb).

Soon reply the other numbers

Salam,
To your points:
Point1. I don't need to comment on personal theories.

2. Al-hamdulillah for once you agree Abdullah Ibn Abbas (R) was not credible to report the hadith because of his age. Then why lying against him (r)? and this has suggested you concur the "arrival" was the 1st year of Hijrah otherwise you wouldn't have submit on Ibn Abbas just like that. Telling me its for the sake of argument do not hold.

Other reporters:
Abu Musa al-Ashari came from the tribe of Ashar in Yemen. He converted to Islam before Hijra and since that day till khaybar (7th year Hijrah), he was no where to be found. The prophet sent him back to Yemen to spread Islam and he was never with the holy prophet in the 1st year of Hijra.

Abu hurayra converted to Islam 3years before the demise of the holy prophet(saws) in Sham (Syria) and was only seen in Madina after khaybar which occured in 7th year hijra. If one werent at the event then how can one narrate what happened?

Muawiyyah converted to Islam in the 8th year of hijra which was 7th yr after the mentioning of the hadith relating to Ashura.
Besides can one label Mu'awiya a reliable source? Somebody whom the holy prophet (saws) said: "“At the time of his death, Mu’awiyah shall not be counted as member of my Muslim Ummah.” (Al- Tabari, Muhammad ibn Jarir. Ta'rikh Al-Rusul Wa'l-
Muluk(Vol. 8, Pg. 186; Imam Nasai was killed in Sham because of a single hadith he narrated on Mu'awiyah where Rasul cursed him))

NB: Please how can you say ALL the sahaba of the prophet (saws) are righteous?

ON SAHABA!
Shi'a stand on general sahaba is that: Not ALL of them were righteous. Qur'an exposed some of Munafiq among them to the point that some were unknown to the prophet; Allah said only Him know them (sura Tawbah vs 101).
Qur'an, hadith and History even reveal those who apostatized among them after the death of the prophet.
And truly there were many righteous steadfast role-model personalities among them.

Let me give you a peep:

Ala b. Al-Musayyab narrated from his father, who said: "I met al-Bara'a ibn Azib and said to him: "You are fortunate, you were a companion of the prophet and paid allegiance to him under the tree". Whereupon he said: "'My nephew, you do not know what we INNOVATED after him" (al-Bukhari vol. 5 p. 66)

Allah knew many of them will violate their oath; hence he warned:
"Those who paid allegiance to you in fact pay allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands. And WHOEVER VIOLATES that oath has done so against his own(self)~Q48:10"

Also prophet fore-told:
"On the day of resurrection you will be grabbed from the left, and I will say: 'where are they (being taken) to?' It will be said: "To Hell, by God. ' I will say: "my Lord! These are my companions'. It will be said: 'You do not know what they did after you. From the time you left them they never ceased to apostatize. ' I will say: 'Away with him, away with him, woe to him who changed things after me. And I do not see anyone of them being saved except that he will be like a forlorn sheep".
(Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 7 p. 209, vol 4 p. 94, 156; Muslim vol. 7 p. 66).

To your last theories:

Brother, ain't gonna take those theories dogmatically. Prove with concrete evidence inkuntum sadiqin.

Salam.

BetaThings:
So the Shia started practising Islam and the Sunnis broke away from them and changed those practises to be different?
There should be a limit to falsehood
I believe that it is the Sunnis that introduced the name of Ali(RA) into the Adhan? Right!

Betathing,
You really don't like giving a benefit of doubt at all to your opponents. And I tell you, you can only exercise patience to take the bull by the horn. If a claim is being made, it is better to ask for proves "...inkutum sadiqin (if you are truthful)" Qur'an says. I made a claim, you should have challenge me to bring out evidence and you know me before now ONLY sunni sources will I tender. Instead of using "falsehood" or accusing.

May Allah refine our deeds and give us better understanding to accommodate ourselves.

I think not to earn the "MoD's" wrath again (which sometimes lead to Banning), I will demand and let my opponent demand from me set of rules we should indulge in before engaging in dialogue.
If you wish to continue, let's keep it subtle. Am all yours dear brother.
Thanks, Salam

kaybyte: salamu alaykum, i am amazed that you guys are still dragging issues with all this shiit guys. People who insult aisha, abubakar and umar r.a, calling them people of hell. They misguided and you have to be careful not to let them misgiude you too. As long as islam is cocerned, sahih bukhari and muslim are the second most authentic book after the qur'an. Most of the shiits are not muslim because there calima has taken them away from the fold of islam. They say aisha ra is a prostitute. Ask them what is there origin. So there brothers and sisters, leave those guys alone because they only believe in there books and not the books of authority in islam.

Hmmm...I wouldn't have reply but...
Kaybyte,
Dear brother/sister,
I was a young inquisitive student of learning in 1993 when I read books written by Sunni Ulamas and attended lectures on Shi'a. That was where I actually got the gist of shia is this! Shia is that for the first time in my life. Then my quest for research begin...

It is only disheartened that at this modern age, Sunni Ulama and students continue to repeat same old story.

ON SAHABA!
Shi'a stand on general sahaba is that: Not all of them were righteous. Qur'an exposed many Munafiq among them to the point that Allah said only Him know them (sura Tawbah vs 101).
Qur'an, hadith and History even reveal those who apostatized among them after the death of the prophet.
And truly there were many righteous steadfast role-model personalities among them.

Let me give you a peep:

Ala b. Al-Musayyab narrated from his father, who said: "I met al-Bara'a ibn Azib and said to him: "You are fortunate, you were a companion of the prophet and paid allegiance to him under the tree". Whereupon he said: "'My nephew, you do not know what we INNOVATED after him" (al-Bukhari vol. 5 p. 66)

Allah knew many of them will violate their oath; hence he warned:
"Those who paid allegiance to you in fact pay allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands. And WHOEVER VIOLATES that oath has done so against his own(self)~Q48:10"

Also prophet fore-told:
"On the day of resurrection you will be grabbed from the left, and I will say: 'where are they (being taken) to?' It will be said: "To Hell, by God. ' I will say: "my Lord! These are my companions'. It will be said: 'You do not know what they did after you. From the time you left them they never ceased to apostatize. ' I will say: 'Away with him, away with him, woe to him who changed things after me. And I do not see anyone of them being saved except that he will be like a forlorn sheep".
(Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 7 p. 209, vol 4 p. 94, 156; Muslim vol. 7 p. 66).

Sahaba are so important to us that even scholars of hadith grade many hadith weak or fabricated as a result of the personality of a particular sahaba. If Allah can ask the prophet (and his companions initially) to learn from the story of this and that (of the good and bad people of the past), why won't we scrutinize those who are 'closer' to us in time? Ours is never to judge but to learn from their good and bad. Emotionally some shia do curse certain sahaba but this is never the way of our Imam(a.s). When Imam Aliconquered Aisha, one of his disciples suggested she should be taken captive. Imam said: "woe on to you, will you take your mother captive?"
Shia best book of Du'a is "Mafatih al-Jinan" (you can search and download it here:www.getjar.com). See if you will ever find curse of sahabas there! Only those who killed Hussain and ahl al-bayt of their prophet were cursed!

CONCERNING AL-BUKHARI & OTHERS!
If al-Qur'an can give room for its scrutiny where it challenge anybody in various field to research into it if they would find discrepancies in it, what is Al-bukhari, Muslim, al-Kafi, wasail shia et al that we are so afraid to scrutinized? There might be certain motives behind it.
To me its even insultive to say certain books are most authentic after Qur'an.
I believe there are many lies, fabrication in the narration of al-Bukhari and others as there are many sahih narration in them.
Here I present to you examples:
www.nairaland.com/1501204/how-true-narrations-sahih-bukhari

May Allah open our heart and inner eyes for truth.
Salam
ORIGIN OF SHI'A
Abdullah ibn saba! That's what every tom dick and harry sunni will exclaim! Thank God people are awakening!

May Allah bless Dr. Taha Hussain, an egyptian sunni scholar who erase the myth of Ibn saba in relation to Shi'a.

You can read the origin of shia here if you are ready to research:
www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/historic-background-of-shiism.html