Ubenedictus: my dear, your blend of sacasm doesn't make for a discussion it makes for a mudslingling parade, a free for all fight. I abstain frm such. If you wish to make a discussion kindly and politely do so, if you can only use sacasm and well conceal insults then weldn.

No be by force! You can choose to ignore my posts; afterall some of the Roman Catholics here claim they don't read my posts!

But of course when the Roman Catholic posters are calling people heretics, bastards etc and throwing all manner of insults and telling blatant LIES you don't see any of that.

Enigma:

No be by force! You can choose to ignore my posts; afterall some of the Roman Catholics here claim they don't read my posts!

But of course when the Roman Catholic posters are calling people heretics, bastards etc and throwing all manner of insults and telling blatant LIES you don't see any of that.

so you have NEVER read in any thread watsoever that i advocated for more politeness among my catholic brothers? @Italo please will you address the claim that i never advocated for politeness with my catholic brother. If ur accusations are true, i'll like to ask you how many wrongs make a right? Besides thus far in this thread you are the only person who seem to be in a fighting mood. Please check urself and let us move forward.

^^^ Look, "move forward" in whatever way you like. When I see you constantly telling your fellow Roman Catholics to stop calling people heretics, bastards and saying their "assemblies" are not "church" etc etc etc, I might just take you seriously.

As for my posts, you don't tell me what to do. I will post whatever and in what manner will make my points effective for the intended audience.

When your fellow Roman Catholics have been "in fighting mood" (which is very frequently), where were you?

Abeg, make I hear word!

Ubenedictus: in a sense they follow tradition, atleast in using 27 books, but using 27 books isn't the only tradition. Accepting one and throwing away the rest is hypocrisy.

but Italo stated that other traditions have their principles in the bible...and my post mentions 'christians following all principles found in the bible' (re-phrased)....

....and on the other hand, what are these other traditions that they don't follow.

Syncan:

I believe you know, for your later posts suggest a balance.

I asked because I dont wanna make a wrong conclusion of your statement.

Positive and negative.....do u mean right teachings (from the catholic church) and wrong/questionable teachings from other churches outside the catholic church?

I'm open to corrections.

Enigma: ^^^ Look, "move forward" in whatever way you like. When I see you constantly telling your fellow Roman Catholics to stop calling people heretics, bastards and saying their "assemblies" are not "church" etc etc etc, I might just take you seriously.

As for my posts, you don't tell me what to do. I will post whatever and in what manner will make my points effective for the intended audience.

When your fellow Roman Catholics have been "in fighting mood" (which is very frequently), where were you?

Abeg, make I hear word!

Umm Ubenecdictus....Enigma's right

I can fish out thread where your fellow brothers were on rampage insulting ALL that is not catholic, and you were part of the thread, and NEVER called for civility or called them to order. Now, it's pinching you and you raising a white flag.

Have you seen the venom of Chukwudi or Sal C or PopeII etc?

Anyways, enigma hit the brakes, let's just be plain and void of sarcastic verbs and adverbs.

Enigma: ^^^ Look, "move forward" in whatever way you like. When I see you constantly telling your fellow Roman Catholics to stop calling people heretics, bastards and saying their "assemblies" are not "church" etc etc etc, I might just take you seriously.

As for my posts, you don't tell me what to do. I will post whatever and in what manner will make my points effective for the intended audience.

When your fellow Roman Catholics have been "in fighting mood" (which is very frequently), where were you?

Abeg, make I hear word!

so b it. I don try.

@Gombs

All of them Roman Catholics cannot deny when I was begging them that we should avoid fight --- even when they were raining very bad insults at me.

Moreover, Roman Catholic doctrine is such that it is difficult to discuss without disparaging their claims. Look at just two of their starting positions:

1. No one can be saved unless he submits to the authority of the Roman Catholic "pope".
2. Those who reject the "primacy" and "infallibility" of the Roman Catholic "pope" are heretics and are anathema!

With that starting position, how can one argue with them without disparaging their claims? And it is made worse when we know that Roman Catholic claims are not only based on lies but also on deliberately forged documents that they use to try and support the lies.

These are facts --- not even insults or disparagement even though I don't deny that I now present these facts in both sarcastic and disparaging ways.

Let me show you a sign of some the progress that the vigorous challenge approach has made: some of them here are now careful about calling other people's assemblies as "shops"; until very recently they effectively did it on a daily basis!

Really? Dont worry i wont defend myself even thought i know i could. Just tell me.

Gombs:

Umm Ubenecdictus....Enigma's right

I can fish out thread where your fellow brothers were on rampage insulting ALL that is not catholic, and you were part of the thread, and NEVER called for civility or called them to order. Now, it's pinching you and you raising a white flag.

Have you seen the venom of Chukwudi or Sal C or PopeII etc?

Anyways, enigma hit the brakes, let's just be plain and void of sarcastic verbs and adverbs.

how many wrongs make a right?

Follow up to my last post:

One of them raised the "Council of Florence" with me recently. For all their modern talk of "separated brethren", here is something from the Council of Florence.

"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church."

Tell me that is not to be disparaged and ridiculed!

Since you want to go there

Enigma: @Gombs

All of them Roman Catholics cannot deny when I was begging them that we should avoid fight --- even when they were raining very bad insults at me.

Moreover, Roman Catholic doctrine is such that it is difficult to discuss without disparaging their claims. Look at just two of their starting positions:

1. No one can be saved unless he submits to the authority of the Roman Catholic "pope".
2. Those who reject the "primacy" and "infallibility" of the Roman Catholic "pope" are heretics and are anathema!

With that starting position, how can one argue with them without disparaging their claims? And it is made worse when we know that Roman Catholic claims are not only based on lies but also on deliberately forged documents that they use to try and support the lies.

These are facts --- not even insults or disparagement even though I don't deny that I now present these facts in both sarcastic and disparaging ways.

Let me show you a sign of some the progress that the vigorous challenge approach has made: some of them here are now careful about calling other people's assemblies as "shops"; until very recently they effectively did it on a daily basis!

many 'churches' truly are business for some pastors, you may want to deny it but it is true. And there are some pastors who want to really, sincerely and honestly teach people the "word of God" at least as they understand it. Even so i can say i have never refered to anyones worshipping community as a shop, even if i may have good reasons to do so. Your generalising doesn't work well.

Ubenedictus: Since you want to go there many 'churches' truly are business for some pastors, you may want to deny it but it is true. And there are some pastors who want to really, sincerely and honestly teach people the "word of God" at least as they understand it. Even so i can say i have never refered to anyones worshipping community as a shop, even if i may have good reasons to do so. Your generalising doesn't work well.

If I call fraud now, you will start shouting again. You know well the question(s) I have asked you in the past; for the avoidance of doubt I repeat:

1. Is the Anglican Church --- a Church?
2. Is the Methodist Church --- a Church?
3. Is the Baptist Church --- a Church?

Gombs:

Umm Ubenecdictus....Enigma's right

I can fish out thread where your fellow brothers were on rampage insulting ALL that is not catholic, and you were part of the thread, and NEVER called for civility or called them to order. Now, it's pinching you and you raising a white flag.

Have you seen the venom of Chukwudi or Sal C or PopeII etc?

Anyways, enigma hit the brakes, let's just be plain and void of sarcastic verbs and adverbs.

This won de call my name,I tell you say I send anybody? Abegi park well joor.If anybodi won post any how wey him like make him post !! I KNOW SEND ANYBODI!!!!

Enigma: Follow up to my last post:

One of them raised the "Council of Florence" with me recently. For all their modern talk of "separated brethren", here is something from the Council of Florence.

"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church."

Tell me that is not to be disparaged and ridiculed!

the neccesity of the church didn't start from florence, cyprian, augustine, Jesus and paul are just a few who taught that the church was necessary for salvation. I taught you knew that from your readings of the church father or did you simply pass over it wen reading?

Gombs:

Umm Ubenecdictus....Enigma's right

I can fish out thread where your fellow brothers were on rampage insulting ALL that is not catholic, and you were part of the thread, and NEVER called for civility or called them to order. Now, it's pinching you and you raising a white flag.

Have you seen the venom of Chukwudi or Sal C or PopeII etc?

Anyways, enigma hit the brakes, let's just be plain and void of sarcastic verbs and adverbs.

Gombs i just hope it‘s not my own Sal C.

Ubenedictus: the neccesity of the church didn't start from florence, cyprian, augustine, Jesus and paul are just a few who taught that the church was necessary for salvation. I taught you knew that from your readings of the church father or did you simply pass over it wen reading?

And people say one should not ridicule Roman Catholics --- when they are talking ridiculous nonsense.

So, Jesus Christ said that the Roman Catholic Church is "necessary for salvation"!

Sheer rubbish!

Oh, by the way, these questions remain of course.

1. Is the Anglican Church --- a Church?
2. Is the Methodist Church --- a Church?
3. Is the Baptist Church --- a Church?

Ubenedictus: the neccesity of the church didn't start from florence, cyprian, augustine, Jesus and paul are just a few who taught that the church was necessary for salvation. I taught you knew that from your readings of the church father or did you simply pass over it wen reading?

regarding the bold

sorry, where did they teach this?

If its in the bible, can you please, give the references.

Enigma: Oh, by the way, these questions remain of course.

1. Is the Anglican Church --- a Church?
2. Is the Methodist Church --- a Church?
3. Is the Baptist Church --- a Church?

dat depends on how you define 'church'.

Like Clinton, it depends on the definition of "is". lol

adsonstone:
regarding the bold

sorry, where did they teach this?

If its in the bible, can you please, give the references.

the place they taught that 'unless you are born of water and the holy spirit you cant enter d kingdom of God' the birth of water and spirit is of the church.

^^^ And that refers to the Roman Catholic Church?

And people say don't ridicule erm laugh!

And the "church" of course does not include the Anglican Church, the Baptist Church, the Methodist Church etc!

Yeah, right!

Ubenedictus: the place they taught that 'unless you are born of water and the holy spirit you cant enter d kingdom of God' the birth of water and spirit is of the church.

If I may ask, what exactly does the bold mean and how is it of the church?

adsonstone:
lets examine the 'NT canon tradition' or catholic tradition or whatever you may call it..... did not originate from the Apostles.

What we have ie: the Gospels and the Epistles are works of the apostles and other insipired men meant for the church. I guess you dont expect these to be ignored by the church.

We also have the following books:
Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Truth
Gospel of the Twelve
Gospel of Peter
Gospel of Basilides
Gospel of the Egyptians
Gospel of the Hebrews
Gospel of Matthias
Traditions of Matthias
Preaching of Peter
Acts of Andrew
Acts of Paul
Acts of John
Epistle to the Laodiceans
I Clement
Epistle of Barnabas
Didache
Shepherd of Hermas
Apocalypse of Peter

Why are these 'apostolic' books not in the NT with the 27?
Who wrote Hebrews? Which Apostle?

adsonstone:

The Holy Spirit instructs that traditions that are learnt from the Apostles should be adhered to...not the roman catholic tradition or 'canon tradition'

Apostolic Tradition=Catholic Church Tradition and I have shown why in my reply to truthislight.

But if you reject it, then tell me the following:

1. Where the Holy Spirit mentioned that we must follow the "apostles's" tradition.
2. We must "not follow Catholic tradition."
3. We must "not follow canon tradition."
4. Where the Holy Spirit told you that Mark wrote "Mark" and Luke wrote "Luke" and that those books were inspired by him.
5. Who is an apostle and where did the Holy Spirit tell you that?

To make things easier,
What exactly are these traditions of the apostles?
Just name at least one of these traditions that the Bible is silent about (that was what I requested in the first place).

It depends on what you mean by "silent." That the Bible is silent about something or not can be a very vague expression. E.g there are people who believe the Bible is silent on Trinity simply because they dont find the word there.

Also, you have previously stated more than once that you are infallible.

Does this mean that you are always correct with whatever you say or teach on faith and morals; and whenever you interpret scripture?

Or could you possibly be wrong on at least one of your teachings and interpretations of scripture?

Ukuts gp: I have a question and the question is: why are the catholic afraid of Enigma?

That also is neither Catholic doctrine nor practice.

kcjazz:

Haha totally untrue in this context. Italo even answered better even if he puts "other" Christians together with unbelievers.

If you think other Christians that disagree with some of your doctrines are condemned then why does your Catholic Hymn Book have hymns from protestants? I would like to know how many hymns were composed by Roman Catholics that are listed in that book?

Popular Hymns like Trust and Obey, I surrender, Pass me not only gentle saviour, Amazing grace, It is well... just to name a few are sang at evening masses everyday. If you condemn the other Christians why sing their hymns and have the guts to add to to your Catholic Hymn Book? Again like the Bible you compile from others and claim ownership.

I think you are grossly misunderstanding Ube. He is saying the same thing I said.

If you know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church and reject it, you are damned, be you Christian, Buddhist or even Atheist. But if you truly dont know that it is the one true Church of the one true God, you can be saved, be you Christian, Muslim or even Agnostic.

chukwudi44:

This won de call my name,I tell you say I send anybody? Abegi park well joor.If anybodi won post any how wey him like make him post !! I KNOW SEND ANYBODI!!!!

Your post reeks of utter defeat. Enigma is really giving you a hard time.


Anyways you shd consider changing this your signature

Catholic for life-Existing since 33CE,Compiler of the
bible,the world's most populous and most organised
religious organisation!!The world's greatest charity
organisation



Never knew if I didn't submit to the Catholic Church's doctrine then I'm damned...makes me wonder whether Jesus' death was for a select few.

Ukuts gp:

I have a question and the question is: why are the catholic afraid of Enigma?

While I appreciate Italo's answer to this question, that the above is not a Catholic Doctrine, I must say straight away that Enigma is one of the few truest Protestants left on earth. And every Catholic must be afraid of that kind of a person.

If you know Protestant history, and the mighty doctrines that came out of the teachings of Luther and Calvin, you are truely blessed.

This is my grouse with modern day Pentecostals.

adsonstone:
If I may ask, what exactly does the bold mean and how is it of the church?

the rebirth of water nd d holy spirit isn't for judaism or any other sect, it belongs to the church as established by christ on the apostles. What part do you not understand. Another quote will be, 'unless u eat my body and drink my blood you shall have no life in you' it is the church that is given e power to make bread and wine the body and blood of christ.

Roman Catholic Church

“We declare, state, define and pronounce that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff. (‘Pope’ Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam; statement made ex cathedra, thus ‘infallibly’!)

Versus

Jesus Christ

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

Ubenedictus: so you have NEVER read in any thread watsoever that i advocated for more politeness among my catholic brothers? @Italo please will you address the claim that i never advocated for politeness with my catholic brother. If ur accusations are true, i'll like to ask you how many wrongs make a right? Besides thus far in this thread you are the only person who seem to be in a fighting mood. Please check urself and let us move forward.

Bros, na you get time dey answer that troll.

Anyway make I just testify. Yes, you don advocate courtesy several times...you don tell me personally at least 2 times.

The problem be say e dey almost impossible to dey polite to an obvious hypocrite. You never read Matt 23?

"Woe unto Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"

adsonstone:

I asked because I dont wanna make a wrong conclusion of your statement.

Positive and negative.....do u mean right teachings (from the catholic church) and wrong/questionable teachings from other churches outside the catholic church?

I'm open to corrections.

I mean when you see a virtue exhibited, eg He said something like, I am sorry, you are right. Its such a rare virtue among Christians in NL. I expected an acknowledgement. You did refer to it in a way later, and that's why i said your post seems to have a balance now. More so, you left some of his expose and commented on those you find faulty. The ones you left, are they wrong or right?