truthislight:

You still cant comprehend the basics, that all houses are builth by someone.

Just look around you, and think again.

Does the evidence supports your conclussions ?

OK I agREE! God's Mind as a house, who built it??

truthislight:

Charity begins at home they say, start fron the one you see in planet earth and show they came by chance.

Even the one you see, how absolutely are you able to grasp it, in fact, humans as a whole, are they able to grasp all that happends in nature or they are learning bit by bits ?

If so, why jump hastily to the one you cant see to draw absolute conclussions ?

Is that ^ a course of wisedom ?

Does the evident demonstration of reality in nature support your conclussions ?

The house you live in, can it fall from the skies ?
Is the skies the place where houses are builth without a builder ?

First of all, nobody in this thread is claiming chance and neither would logicboy's poor arguments be used as a prop to support your untenable arguments! Your argument has to stand on its own.

Now, you claim all buildings, cars and complexities must have a builder as their cause -- this is your premise

I'm saying as a weak point in your argument, that God's Mind similarly demonstrates the complexity found in houses, cars and buildings, therefore should have a cause responsible for such a super Mind.

Invariably God would have a cause!

Kay 17:

Does he expend energy?

oh! he does. but what changed is his energy, not him. not so? but I am also correct in that he doesnt change form.

1. So, who do you think is the uncaused cause?

2. Dont you think he must be intelligent, powerful and supernatural?

Kay 17:

OK I agREE!

Cool, that is the rational thing to do.

Kay 17:
God's Mind as a house. who built it??

Now, how do you think we can explain to the fishes in the water as to how come we humans stay out of water and keep living ?

Lets start with that ^ simple one first that we can see.

If you feel that the fish capacity for now cannot comprehend it for now, is it also possible that there are things we cannot dicipher for now ?

But that does not stop the fishes from continuing their life even though they cannot comprehend it.

Does their inability and lack of comprehension means that humans cannot live out of water ? How can ? No naw!

Why then should ours lead to such conclusion ?

The evidence says the complexity around us cannot come by chance.

1. The atmosphere around us to keep the oxygen withing and burn off harmful objects heading to smarsh the earth.

2. The rotating of the earth to prevent the earth from becoming extreme in temperature:
facing the sun constantly > that part will become too hot and burns off all life.

3. Backing the sun constantly, that side will froze and kill of all life.

4. The magnetic field from the earth core that serves as a shield, shielding off harmful radiation from the sun and others from getting to the earth and killing life.

5. The self restoring Ozone layer that does the obviouse.

6. The oxygen and carbondioxide circle. (just imagine we had to buy oxygen, and where will you be storing your waste carbondioxide ?)

7. The water circle and characteristics of water ? Smh.

8. The DNA ?

9. The activities of living cell ? (a complete megga factory).

10. The human brain simply incomprehensible!!!!

11. Etc ..............too many to mention.

Charity begins at home ^ indeed.

*Editted*

Kay 17:

First of all, nobody in this thread is claiming chance and neither would logicboy's poor arguments be used as a prop to support your untenable arguments! Your argument has to stand on its own.

Now, you claim all buildings, cars and complexities must have a builder as their cause -- this is your premise

I'm saying as a weak point in your argument, that God's Mind similarly demonstrates the complexity found in houses, cars and buildings, therefore should have a cause responsible for such a super Mind.

Invariably God would have a cause!

Well, if the fish cannot comprehend certain basics out of its world, we conclude that it has certain basic mental limitations.

If we humans cant comprehend certain basic fundamental outside this our aquarium(planet earth with its atmosphare), what do you think the rational conclussion should be ?(considering that of the fish).

Good ! You guess right!

if we can comprehend all outside planet earth, what do you think NASSA is doing with sending propes and cameras to outter space ?

Hey! Be fair! Dont assign limited capacity to the fish and find it hard to recongnised yours.

Humility is a virture.

^^
Yes I Agree, and address God's Mind

Kay 17: ^^
Yes I Agree, and address God's Mind

How can i address the mind of God when you cannot even address that of man that you can see ?

Are some of us humans suffereing from over self estimation ? I dont.

Over bloated intelligence of ones self is deceitful and can be destructive.

But the Bible answers all my Questions. No ?

truthislight:

Cool, that is the rational thing to do.



Now, how do you think we can explain to the fishes in the water as to how come we humans stay out of water and keep living ?

Lets start with that ^ simple one first that we can see.

If you feel that the fish capacity for now cannot comprehend it for now, is it also possible that there are things we cannot dicipher for now ?

But that does not stop the fishes from continuing their life even though they cannot comprehend it.

Does their inability and lack of comprehension means that humans cannot live out of water ? How can ? No naw!

Why then should ours lead to such conclusion ?

The evidence says the complexity around us cannot come by chance.

1. The atmosphere around us to keep the oxygen withing and burn off harmful objects heading to smarsh the earth.

2. The rotating of the earth to prevent the earth from becoming extreme in temperature:
facing the sun constantly > that part will become too hot and burns off all life.

3. Backing the sun constantly, that side will froze and kill of all life.

4. The magnetic field from the earth core that serves as a shield, shielding off harmful radiation from the sun and others from getting to the earth and killing life.

5. The self restoring Ozone layer that does the obviouse.

6. The oxygen and carbondioxide circle. (just imagine we had to buy oxygen, and where will you be storing your waste carbondioxide ?)

7. The water circle and characteristics of water ? Smh.

8. The DNA ?

9. The activities of living cell ? (a complete megga factory).

10. The human brain simply incomprehensible!!!!

11. Etc ..............too many to mention.

Charity begins at home ^ indeed.

*Editted*

If I say that I did not ponder on this, then I am lying. I get your point. But if there is ony the xtian god overseeing everything in the earth, then there will not be religions. I mean, there will not generations of dead moslems/pagans/hindus and the rest
You get me?

You argue from a position of ignorance.
"I dont understand how these builded houses could have got here without a builder therefore I assume an uncreated builder."
You dont see that you are just a speck in this universe and some things are just beyond your understanding. Man has started unraveling the complexity through the big bang and theory of evolution. Science. Not guesswork. Not from a book by a primitive desert tribe. Obviously before that the mystery persists. But I need more than an argument from ignorance to accept something so incomprehensible as an uncreated creator.
Not use our tiny brains to make conclusions. This is how the flat earth theory came about. Ignorance and limited vision.

truthislight:

How can i address the mind of God when you cannot even address that of man that you can see ?

Are some of us humans suffereing from over self estimation ? I dont.

Over bloated intelligence of ones self is deceitful and can be destructive.

But the Bible answers all my Questions. No ? 8

Hmmmm. But out of your intelligence, you said God created the Universe, and you were not present to watch God do that. I didn't complain about your overreaching intelligence!

Its like you have given up.

Kay 17:

Hmmmm. But out of your intelligence, you said God created the Universe, and you were not present to watch God do that. I didn't complain about your overreaching intelligence!

Its like you have given up.

Given up on what ?

I had made myself explicitly clear, what do you think i have not said ?

I had told you - every house is built by someone, what else do you want ?

Any deduction contrary to that ^ fact will be tending toward lack of knowledge of reality.

Redlyn: You argue from a position of ignorance.
"I dont understand how these builded houses could have got here without a builder therefore I assume an uncreated builder."
You dont see that you are just a speck in this universe and some things are just beyond your understanding. Man has started unraveling the complexity through the big bang and theory of evolution. Science. Not guesswork. Not from a book by a primitive desert tribe. Obviously before that the mystery persists. But I need more than an argument from ignorance to accept something so incomprehensible as an uncreated creator.
Not use our tiny brains to make conclusions. This is how the flat earth theory came about. Ignorance and limited vision.

The fact is this: we all have started to exist. To be logical, there must be an uncaused cause/uncreated creator. Who is this person. Saying that there is no uncaused cause will be illogical. Now, the universe began to exist. But who caused it? This one must be 1. Supernatural, 2. intelligent. 3. possess supernatural power.

Science cant help us here cos it only talks of the physical. If you accept that this conclusion makes sense, then you cannot deny that there is a God out there that people worship. As such atheism, is'nt reasonable.

Even your evolution lacks scientific prove that life sprang spontaneously from water.

Kay 17:

Hmmmm. But out of your intelligence, you said God created the Universe, and you were not present to watch God do that. I didn't complain about your overreaching intelligence!

Its like you have given up.

I think he have been able to prove to you that even the fishes cant comprehend how we exist out of water inspite of the fact that some of them have characteristics that are surprising to us. But that does not mean we dont exist outside of water.

Now, that God can exist without being created is too hard to believe, but like the fishes, we cant comprehend this even though it is possible. That there must be an uncaused cause is more plausible than saying there is no such thing. So someone out there must be uncreated even if we cant comprehend it, just like the fishes cant comprehend how we live out of water or even how we come to exist.

In short that there is a supernatural power that can cause something to happen is impossible to science. Some scientist have to explore ESP, to see whether something can be done defying the law of nature. This was proven. Some began to believe that some fits could be achieved using supernatural powers, but this cant be explained scientifically. So science has its limitations. When it comes to the supernatural, science is helpless, but supernatural exists. That someone can exist without being created out there is something we cant understand. at least for now we are humans.

Think abouit it; science copy fishes, reptiles, flies, and some other creations to make certain things. In short up till now science is trying to study how the DNA is able to store trillions of informations. The question is: Science creates something from what they copy from nature/animals, but who created or constructed these animals they copy? which specie is more intelligent than humans to do this amazing work?

Up till now, we dont even know how to copy some, nor can we explain how some anilmals work, but we believe that chance created them, that they sprang from non living things, even when this is not scientific. Have you even wondered how large the universe is? does it not show order and evidence of an intelligent designer, who created the laws the universe obeys? they came by themselves? No naaaaa. Its just like telling me that something as big and as orderly as Aeroplanes came on its own and directs itself, setting a law of its own.

Think about it.

@truthlight and Jman05

Both of you are hypocrites!

How did you understand fishes live in water?

How do you understand fishes can't comprehend man on land?

Both of you rambled on about building and builder, and when it get to God's mind, suddenly its a mysterious building!

I doubt if you people really thought about it. If God's Mind does not require a cause, then it puts at risk the general principle of causality! If due to our lack of comprehension, we cannot understand some phenomena, then we cannot say God's Mind was caused or the Universe itself is caused!

The evidence we see in the physical world tells us that things are caused, hence, the basis to deduced that what we have around us was caused by someone.

Hey, stop threatening us.

Lol. hehehehe.

Kay 17: @truthlight and Jman05

Both of you are hypocrites!

How did you understand fishes live in water?

How do you understand fishes can't comprehend man on land?

Both of you rambled on about building and builder, and when it get to God's mind, suddenly its a mysterious building!

I doubt if you people really thought about it. If God's Mind does not require a cause, then it puts at risk the general principle of causality! If due to our lack of comprehension, we cannot understand some phenomena, then we cannot say God's Mind was caused or the Universe itself is caused!

Who said that God's mind was caused ?

But the universe is caused, yes.

Meanwhile, take care of that contradiction on red there ^.

*because we cannot comprehend the things outside planet earth fully, we hence cant make conclusive statement like > "there is no God"*.

The evidence around us says otherwise.

Evidences are the basis for conclussions, evidences are the basis for judgement.
Evidences that a house is build by someone is the evidence that God exist > the maker.

Why deviate from this trend when it comes to this ?

We cant just ignore the glaring evidence we see around us and say otherwise.

^^
You guys are making this too labourious.

Do you think God's Mind is caused or uncaused? Why?

Do you think the Universe is caused or uncaused? Why?

What is the defining yardstick for the physical world?

Interesting Thread: My opinion;

1) I open up the back of a computer, looking at all its IC, capacitors, resistors etc, even though I can understand why they are arranged/connected the way they are, the complexity and function the computer does make me believe there most be someone involve in its design.

Mere paints cannot create a beautiful art picture of me without an artist, nor a child's toys will not build himself will it? Then why will I say nothing cause the earth to rotate at the right speed, to revolve round the sun in an elliptical path and not a circle, why is it that earth has the right size to sustain life-if bigger( it will act like a vacuum, absorbing small planetary bodies like asterouds), if Smaller (it won't have atmosphere hence no life), why is it the earth is rightly placed from the sun (if close-water will evaporate, if far-earth will be a frozen wasteland). Its almost as if earth was designed to sustain life-not just human life but billions of species varying from plants to animals.


2)So if the Earth and the Cosmos have a designer can we say the Designer of earth have a designer also?

Earth< Designer 1 (The one Religion call God)< Designer 2<<<

a) If Designer 1 has or does not have a Designer(2), it does not change the FACT that Earth and everything in it has. TRUE

b) Since no man (the most intelligent) being on earth has not seen the Designer 1, how then can they verify that he(Designer 1) has or don't have a designer too? Because we saw ourselves and things in Nature to conclude that we do have a designer.

Even dogs are aware that they have Masters- they can comprehend that much, but do they know why the Master work, shave,play music, love, think, or how the Master came to being (Giving birth), NO is the answer.

c) If No one has seen Designer 1, does that mean he does not exist? Not necessary, I have not seen nor know anything about who designed/made my laptop yet I am sure he exist!

d) Should we concern ourselves with Designer 2 when we have not fully understood Designer 1?

Scientist concern themselves to the physical, so untill they see Designer 1 then they can ask of designer 2.

Religionist concern themselves with physical and Spiritual, and their Spiritual pursuit has lead many to believe Designer 1 has no designer 2 (according to visions, dreams, revelations and Written Holy books). So it makes no sense for Scientist who believe in only Physical to fault Religionist who believe in Spiritual.

^^
Very articulate.

However the 2nd designer is very much in contention and indispensable because we are concerned/confronted with Cosmology! And all other subsequent designers ad infinitum are accordingly relevant.

Note your computer design example, the complex arrangement and design was preconceived by a mind. The mind of the computer designer had already created the computer in his imagination. So its a mere reflection of the mind, and making the human mind, the builder's min more complex than his product. The mind is much more marvelous than the computer.

Same as God's mind.

2nd designer creates God, 3rd designer creates 2nd designer, 4th designer creates 3rd designer ad infinitum. The problem is, it is logically absurd for that to happen, so also we can't say God or any of the designers are uncaused, because they are still complex and we can easily claim the Universe or earth is uncaused.

So for the problem of infinite creators.

Most theists fail to realize that causality is all about change in form! It does not bring about existence. A causal question about existence, suggests non-existence was prior to existence. This is nonsensical to believe Nothing is the cause of existence.

Theists don not realize that they hold God as the substance of existence, and he changed A PART of his self to create the Universe and all! After all, God cannot create from Nothing.

Kay 17: ^^
You guys are making this too labourious.

Do you think God's Mind is caused or uncaused? Why?

Do you think the Universe is caused or uncaused? Why?

What is the defining yardstick for the physical world?

Dont spread your infinite regress, it is not a weakness that is common to all.

Cure it with facts.
Be real and realistic to what you see which is obvious and stop leting your finite mind play tricks on you.

You cannot even do a good work with the world you know on planet earth, but you are postulating about the one you know absolutely nothing about > the univers.

The evidence from the one we see shows it was purposely made to support life.

That ^ you keep denying, but rether, you are here asking if the one you know nothing about is caused or uncaused. Smh.

Stop deceiving yourself with those empty questions, be real, have a life!

Imagine!

You seemed to have played too much computer games, thats why fancy postulation controls your life.

If your brain is functioning so efficiently that you can determind the caused of the univers, why not at least be able to do justice to planet earth and unravel techology to fixe all of mans problems ?

Charity begins at home they say, since your charity works in outer space >
Take the fancy guess work of your finite mind to the fictional section of NL joore!

Nonsense!

And even if some being did create the universe, maybe he died during the big bang or sometime before the present. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise

When someone asks questions and gives the answers like you did below, we have reasons to conclude that some thing is wrong somewhere.

Kay 17: ^^
Very articulate.

However the 2nd designer is very much in contention and indispensable because we are concerned/confronted with Cosmology! And all other subsequent designers ad infinitum are accordingly relevant.

Note your computer design example, the complex arrangement and design was preconceived by a mind. The mind of the computer designer had already created the computer in his imagination. So its a mere reflection of the mind, and making the human mind, the builder's min more complex than his product. The mind is much more marvelous than the computer.

Same as God's mind.

2nd designer creates God, 3rd designer creates 2nd designer, 4th designer creates 3rd designer ad infinitum. The problem is, it is logically absurd for that to happen, so also we can't say God or any of the designers are uncaused, because they are still complex and we can easily claim the Universe or earth is uncaused.

So for the problem of infinite creators.

What could be wrong ^ with you ?



There seems to be a disconnect some where with people like you its like.

Kay 17:
The mind is much more marvelous than the computer.

Why then do you want the computer to verify the mind of its designer ?

Kay 17: Most theists fail to realize that causality is all about change in form! It does not bring about existence. A causal question about existence, suggests non-existence was prior to existence. This is nonsensical to believe Nothing is the cause of existence.

Theists don not realize that they hold God as the substance of existence, and he changed A PART of his self to create the Universe and all! After all, God cannot create from Nothing.

Your constrain is noted, but that is because you are a materialist.

@truthislight

I get your grouse in your disjointed post. However so as to be clearer, what is your yardstick for the physical world.

As to earth, we both agree that there is purpose in every design. Now of what purpose is a desert?

Kay 17: ^^
Very articulate.

However the 2nd designer is very much in contention and indispensable because we are concerned/confronted with Cosmology! And all other subsequent designers ad infinitum are accordingly relevant.

Note your computer design example, the complex arrangement and design was preconceived by a mind. The mind of the computer designer had already created the computer in his imagination. So its a mere reflection of the mind, and making the human mind, the builder's min more complex than his product. The mind is much more marvelous than the computer.

Same as God's mind.

2nd designer creates God, 3rd designer creates 2nd designer, 4th designer creates 3rd designer ad infinitum. The problem is, it is logically absurd for that to happen, so also we can't say God or any of the designers are uncaused, because they are still complex and we can easily claim the Universe or earth is uncaused.

So for the problem of infinite creators.

I have given you Fact/Prove that Designer 1 exists, and like you are hinting on-he has a marvellous Mind Worthy of Understanding. Surely such an intelligent being could easily Fathom if Designer 2 exist wouldn't he? Therein lies the Problem- Scientist who search for designer 1 in the Physical have not been able to make contact, So they have not been able to study further on that subject (they have not even understand everything about the human body and the everything in the planet not to mention the cosmos).

But Religionist have made such Contact and according to them Designer 1 says he has no Origin, in the beginning he decide to create other life forms.

Why would a dog not understand why its Master sleep,cry, for in love and Marry? Because of its limited intelligences. Man is no doubt the most intelligent being on earth hence we can reason on a 3D level, still Scientist says we don't make use of 20% of our brain during our lifetime- can we Fathom Designer 1 mind while limited to the Physical Plane? What if the Designer 1 exist in another plane? let's say Spiritual or immaterial Plane (We don't see the wind, but see what it does is proof that Wind exist). If that is true Searching for designer 1 in the physical plane is futile!

So if Scientists have not located designer 1 why bother about designer 2. The Fact is man can not say he was not design. Supposing you spread Seed on a piece of land, What are the odds that they will grow up in a pattern that spells your name without human assistance if you look at it from a high spot.

^^

So in other words, we cannot comprehend God since we are not too far from dogs?!

By the way, my argument of infinite regress disproves God as a creator argument because of the absurdity of infinite regress.

*am posting this a second time to see if it will help*

When someone asks questions and gives the answers like you did below, and yet is unable to see it, we have reasons to conclude that something is wrong somewhere.

Kay 17: ^^
Very articulate.

However the 2nd designer is very much in contention and indispensable because we are concerned/confronted with Cosmology! And all other subsequent designers ad infinitum are accordingly relevant.

Note your computer design example, the complex arrangement and design was preconceived by a mind. The mind of the computer designer had already created the computer in his imagination. So its a mere reflection of the mind, and making the human mind, the builder's min more complex than his product. The mind is much more marvelous than the computer.

Same as God's mind.

2nd designer creates God, 3rd designer creates 2nd designer, 4th designer creates 3rd designer ad infinitum. The problem is, it is logically absurd for that to happen, so also we can't say God or any of the designers are uncaused, because they are still complex and we can easily claim the Universe or earth is uncaused.

So for the problem of infinite creators.

What could be wrong ^ with you ?



There seems to be a disconnect some where with people like you its like.

Kay 17:
The mind is much more marvelous than the computer.

Why then do you want the computer to verify the mind of its designer ?

^^
I don't get your question.

Kay 17: ^^
Very articulate.

However the 2nd designer is very much in contention and indispensable because we are concerned/confronted with Cosmology! And all other subsequent designers ad infinitum are accordingly relevant.

Note your computer design example, the complex arrangement and design was preconceived by a mind. The mind of the computer designer had already created the computer in his imagination. So its a mere reflection of the mind, and making the human mind, the builder's min more complex than his product. The mind is much more marvelous than the computer.

Same as God's mind.

2nd designer creates God, 3rd designer creates 2nd designer, 4th designer creates 3rd designer ad infinitum. The problem is, it is logically absurd for that to happen, so also we can't say God or any of the designers are uncaused, because they are still complex and we can easily claim the Universe or earth is uncaused.

So for the problem of infinite creators.

Science wont agree with you that the universe do not have a cause. It is unthinkable in the physical realm. guy think.

Kay 17: ^^
I don't get your question.

Can the computer verify the capacity of the mind if not customized to do so? So you think the animals know how we exist as much as we know them? Even without being told, your brain should be working.

Kay 17: ^^
I don't get your question.

Kay 17:
The mind is much more marvelous than the computer.

since that ^ is so,
can the computer then be able to verify the mind of its designer ?

can the computer decides to described how its designer came to be(exist) on its own ?

JMAN05:

Science wont agree with you that the universe do not have a cause. It is unthinkable in the physical realm. guy think.

What is the physical?

Is time physical?

Is information physical?

Are mathematical abstracts physical?

truthislight:

since that ^ is so,
can the computer then be able to verify the mind of its designer ?

can the computer decides to described how its designer came to be(exist) on its own ?

Same as the fish question abi? Ok let's assume God is incomprehensible to us, yet we see the complexity and beauty of the universe to conclude that invariably somebody built this "house", so also in the same line of consistent reasoning, it follows that the somebody too himself being super designed but be created by another designer, so on and so ad infinitum.

Good sense will tell us that the Universe will never be created if designers keep designing designers in infinity, this point when God creates the Universe will never approach.

An example: "before I shoot truthlight, I obliged to take permission from my oga at the top, who in turn has to take permission from his own oga at the top, and same has to take permission from his own oga at the top, ad infinitum. When do you think I will shoot truthlight?"