Proof please

Nestorianism, arianism, gnostics, you name it.

Really?

Yes.

What kind of pilgrimage did they do that time?

They walk the same path that Jesus walked. Today it is called the Vis Dolorosa. Go to the Holy land you will see it.

If you had been been folowing your post yourself, you would have read your deceit therein. Was Jesus crucified?

I have been following my post and there is no deceit therein. History proves it. Yes Jesus was crucified. There is extensive proof of it. Even the romans boasted of how they killed the God of the christians and laughed at the christians, wondering how they could call a man a God.

Was he nailed to a cross or tied to a stake according to your bible?

Yes he was nailed to the cross. When Jesus appeared to St Teresa of Avila she knew it was him because of the wounds in his hands, when the devil tried to deceive her and appear as Jesus, she knew it wasn't him because he did not have the wounds from the crucifixion. It is through his wounds that we recognise him.

oh by the way that is according to my Bible.

Now it is up toyou to prove that Jesus didn't die. See I don't have to use the Bible to prove that Jesus died, I can use non-christian soruces but you, you can't prove that he didn't die at least not without the quran, and well we know that book is not just fuul of lies but also hisotrical errors.

Why did you refuse to continue what your early people that you are claiming to be following did?

We didn't refuse to continue. We were forced by muslims not to continue when muslims captured the Holy land. We still do it today in our parishes. You may try to change it but the truth never lies. History never lies.

make sure you read my post before you start asking questions, as I am sure that you noticed that every question you asked were already addressed.

Was Mecca Christian holy Land because I read you saying that Muslims refuse them entry into the holy  land?

When I speak of Holy land I speak of Jerusalem, I could careless about your holy land.

When was that and what holy land are you referring to, pleae be explicit?

I am referring to the only Holy Land. This was around the 1000s. serisously you need to look it up, there's so much to it. if you think i am lying then prove me wrong, look it up.

Your proof please. I don't partake in cock and bull story.

sura 5:82
005.082
Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

Men who have renounced the world are whom we call monks. It's so funny because here muhammad speaks greatly of the monks and how they are not arrogant and in another place he speaks of how evil they are that they steal the people's money. so when will he make up his mind.

anyway there you see muhammad admired the monks, monks always had on hand rosaries to recite the 150 psalms (this it the part of Catholic Christian history). now tell me that muslims don't use beads to keep count during prayer or is it pieties?
i'll tell you how that relates to the rosary later on when you answer the above.

Hogwash. Provide your proof if you are sincere to yourself and not your tales by moonlight that has no basis

I have no reason to lie, afterall I have history and truth to prove it. I will definitely return to finish, gotta run to mass now, bye.


well before i run off, i want to make a hint at your prayer. you have prayers that you do by hours.
so do we and they were being done way before muhammad's time. we call it liturgy of the hours. these take not more than 5 to 10 minutes to pray. i bet that's about how long it takes you to pray too (correct me if i am wrong, but i know i am not)

ok realy bye.

@~Lady~: « #32 on: Yesterday at 08:52:06 PM »

Yes he was nailed to the cross. When Jesus appeared to St Teresa of Avila she knew it was him because of the wounds in his hands, when the devil tried to deceive her and appear as Jesus, she knew it wasn't him because he did not have the wounds from the crucifixion. It is through his wounds that we recognise him.

oh by the way that is according to my Bible.

Yes. The book that is so incomplete, that Paul has to be the Sidekick to try to complete a story. Unfortunately he took a different course of story line. I guess he goofed. His story is completely different from Jesus. Jesus expressed that he has a Lord who is God, the same as what his audience has. But Paul and co suddenly found 3 gods and Jesus a mere human is one of them. And he, Paul and his crew can give proper name to one of the gods. Now tell me, is this what you a book of God? A truth? You remind me, by your argument of a book called the "Drummer Boy." Its a fiction, but to an ordinary reader, it may look as if its a true story.

Now it is up toyou to prove that Jesus didn't die. See I don't have to use the Bible to prove that Jesus died, I can use non-christian soruces but you, you can't prove that he didn't die at least not without the quran, and well we know that book is not just fuul of lies but also hisotrical errors.

But you used the bible anyhow. And any non christian source, should have been a practicing Jewish or Islamic source. Now thats your litmus. Can you bring out any? I thought so. Its all bruhaha from you.

Now let me use medicine to prove you wrong! Even in medicine, clinically death may just be that. Clinically, but not actually dead, since it is a diagnosis of a snapshot in time. There has been many stories of persons who were thought to have been dead. But in time, before they are opened up for the Christian burial preparations, they are found to have woken up and came to life. Other common situations are the people being shocked back to life.

Now tell me, all those people who woke up, after they have been thought to have died are also gods? Do you and paul know or it is God Almighty who knows the people who are truly dead. If you dare me, then lets wager and I will get you a story of a person who was thought to have died and kept in the mortuary, in Lagos. Then she woke up much much later to life. Is she god of the Christians, too?

@Lady

Of all your post, I am highly interested in this part:

Now it is up toyou to prove that Jesus didn't die. See I don't have to use the Bible to prove that Jesus died, I can use non-christian soruces but you, you can't prove that he didn't die at least not without the quran, and well we know that book is not just fuul of lies but also hisotrical errors.

Now, we can go into his death using the bible alone without going the Quran and you would see that Jesus was never crucified.

If you are up to the task, signify and let me know. I raised similar thread some time but you and I can start on a fresh note if you care.

Now, we can go into his death using the bible alone without going the Quran and you would see that Jesus was never crucified.

Go ahead. Oh yeah the one about his disciples saying no to his death or not believing in his death before he died does not prove that he didn't die. They didn't believe him until he actually died and came back to life.
Saying that someone didn't believe in something to happen before an incident happen does not prove that an incident didn't happen.
For example if I tell you that I will slap you, and then you tell me you don't believe it, and then I actually slap you does that mean that I didn't slap you?
9If you say yes, then you seriously need to go to school for an education)
So your best bet will be to show that he didn't die after his death and resurrection. Show me those who didn't believe he died.

Good luck.

@ Topic
Again, Someone who never existed can't die 

A ghost can never impregnate a woman,It's against the law of nature and creation,The only way sanctioned by the Creator Abba YAHAWAH to bring forth children is through a man's sperm cell fertilizing a woman's egg.

So this mythological half -man half- God J-Zeus created by Constantine in 320 AD and the Catholic Church at the council of Nicea never walked this earth. I can gladly offer further proof from Torah

The World's Sixteen
Crucified Saviors
by Kersey Graves

Rival Claims of The Saviors
It is claimed by the disciples of Jesus Christ that he was of supernatural and divine origin; that, although he was woman conceived, he was deity begotten, and molded in human form, but comprehending in essence a full measure of the infinite Godhead, thus making him half human and half divine in his sublunary origin.

It is claimed that he was full and perfect God, and perfect man; and while he was God, he was also the son of God, and as such was sent down by the father to save the fallen and guilty world; and that thus his mission pertained to the whole human race; and his inspired seers are made to declare that ultimately every nation, tongue, kindred, and people under heaven will acknowledge allegiance to his government, and concede his right to reign and rule the world; that "every knee must bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

But we do not find that this prophecy has ever been or is likely to be fulfilled.  We do not observe that this claim to the infinite deityship of Jesus Christ has been  or is likely to be universally conceded.  On the contrary, it is found that by a portion, and a large portion of the people of even those nations now called Christian, this claim has been steadily and unswervingly controverted, through the whole line of history, stretching  through the nearly two thousand years which have elapsed since his advent to earth.

Even some of those who are represented to have been personally acquainted with him - aye! some of his own brethren in the flesh, children in the same household, children of the same mother - had the temerity to question the tenableness of his claim to a divine emanation.  And when we extend our researches to other countries, we find his claim, so far from being conceded, is denied and contested by whole nations upon other grounds.  It is met and confronted by rival claims.

Upon this ground hundreds of millions of the established believers in divine revelation - hundreds of millions of believers in the divine character and origin of religion - reject the pretensions set up for Jesus Christ.  They admit both a God and a Savior, but do not accept Jesus of Nazareth as being either.  They admit a Messiah, but not 'the' Messiah; these nations contend that the title is misplaced which makes "the man Christ Jesus" the Savior of the world.  They claim to have been honored with the birth of the true Savior among them, and defend this claim upon the ground of priority of date.  They aver that the advents of their Messiahs were long prior to that of the Christians, and that this circumstance adjudicates for them a superiority of claim as to having had the true Messiah born upon their soil.

It is argued that, as the story of the incarnation of the Christians' Savior is of more recent date than those of the oriental and the ancient religions ( as is conceded by Christians themselves), the origin of the former is thus indicated and foreshadowed as being an outgrowth from, if not a plagiarism upon the latter - a borrowed copy, of which the pagan stories furnish the original.  Here, then, we observe a rivalship of claims, as to which of the remarkable personages who have figured in the world of Saviors, Messiahs, and Sons of God, in different ages and different countries, can be considered the true Savior and "sent of God;" or whether all should be, or the claims of all rejected.

For researchers in oriental history reveal the remarkable fact that stories of incarnate Gods answering to and resembling the miraculous character of Jesus Christ have been prevalent in most if not all the principal religious heathen nations of antiquity; and the accounts and narrations of some of these deific incarnations bear such a striking resemblance to that of the Christian Savior - not only in their general features, but in some cases the most minute details, from the legend of the immaculate conception to that of the crucifixion, and subsequent ascension into heaven - that one might almost be mistaken for another.

More than twenty claims of this kind - claims of being invested with divine honor (deified) - have come forward and presented themselves at the bar of the world, with their credentials, to contest the verdict of Christendom, in having proclaimed Jesus Christ, "the only son, and sent of God:" twenty Messiahs, Saviors, and Sons of God, according to history or tradition, have in past times, descended from heaven, and taken upon themselves the form of men, clothing themselves with human flesh, and furnishing incontestable evidence of a divine origin, by various miracles, marvelous works, and superlative virtues; and finally these twenty Jesus Christs (accepting their character of the name) laid the foundation for the salvation of the world, and ascended back to heaven:

     -Krishna of Hindostan
     -Buddha Sakia of India
     -Salivahana of Bermuda
     -Zulis, or Zhule, also Osiris and
            Orus, of Egypt
     -Odin of the Scandinavians
     -Crite of Chaldea
     -Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia
     -Baal and Taut, "the only
            Begotten of God," of Phoenicia
     -Indra of Tibet
     -Bali of Afghanistan
     -Jao of Nepal
     -Wittoba of the Bilingonese
     -Thammuz of Syria
     -Atys of Phrygia
     -Xamolxis of Thrace
     -Zoar of the Bonzes
     -Adad of Assyria
     -Deva Tat, and Sammonocadam of Siam
     -Alcides of Thebes
     -Mikado of the Sintoos
     -Beddru of Japan
     -Hesus of Eros, and Bremrillah,
             of the Druids
     -Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls
     -Cadmus of Greece
     -Hil and Feta of the Mandaites
     -Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico
     -Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
     -Ischy of the Island of Formosa
     -Divine Teacher of Plato
     -Holy One of Xaca
     -Fohi and Tien of China
     -Adonis, son of the virgin Io of Greece
     -Ixion and Quirnus of Rome
     -Prometheus of Caucasus
     -Mohammed, or Mahomet, of Arabia

Salamah
Yisraylite   

@Lady

Go ahead. Oh yeah the one about his disciples saying no to his death or not believing in his death before he died does not prove that he didn't die. They didn't believe him until he actually died and came back to life.
Saying that someone didn't believe in something to happen before an incident happen does not prove that an incident didn't happen.
For example if I tell you that I will slap you, and then you tell me you don't believe it, and then I actually slap you does that mean that I didn't slap you?
9If you say yes, then you seriously need to go to school for an education)
So your best bet will be to show that he didn't die after his death and resurrection. Show me those who didn't believe he died.

Good luck.

Why are you jumping the gun when I have not even said anything? Are you afraid to defend his alleged crucifixion? Oh I got it, you think I am referring to the Gospel of Peter or Barnabas? Far from it my dear, we are going to use the bible and nothing but the bible.

Why are you jumping the gun when I have not even said anything? Are you afraid to defend his alleged crucifixion? Oh I got it, you think I am referring to the Gospel of Peter or Barnabas? Far from it my dear, we are going to use the bible and nothing but the bible.

oh no not at all. i was just reminding you of what you said to me, plus classes have started, i have to shorten time you know.
now go ahead and use the bible thanks.

you also didn't answer my question, why is that? you never answer my questions, instead you ignore them and jump to other things. comon man do better.

@Lady
Am really getting these days, just like you said classes has started. This summer was really dry, thanks to pals on nairaland.

@Lady

you also didn't answer my question, why is that? you never answer my questions, instead you ignore them and jump to other things. comon man do better.

Let me have your question please before I go into the alleged crucifixion of Jesus.

When you supply your questions, dont forget to prepare yourself for proof that his disciples witnessed the alleged crucifion, why his disciples not believe that he had risen from the death, why they didnt return to Jeruslame to see his resurrection, where he was crucified (outside Jerusalem or in Jerusalem and some other questions, facts from your book etc

You are welcome to my world

LOL @ Yisraylite.

A Jew denigrating the Christian God and trying to justify his own. Yaweh, YWVH or whatever you want to call him has no more credibility than Jesus wuth the examples you give. Pointing to 20 or so examples of figures similar to Jesus is plain stupid when one can point to hundreds of gods similar to the tribal storm god "Yaweh".

Historically and theologically, you're on very shaky ground, my friend.

Let me have your question please before I go into the alleged crucifixion of Jesus.

The questions I asked were in the Trinity thread.

When you supply your questions, don't forget to prepare yourself for proof that his disciples witnessed the alleged crucifion, why his disciples not believe that he had risen from the death, why they didnt return to Jeruslame to see his resurrection, where he was crucified (outside Jerusalem or in Jerusalem and some other questions, facts from your book etc

You can go on with the "no crucifixion" proof that you have I can't wait to see it.
His disciples were present, hello that's why they were able to write about it and one in particular was mentioned for a specific reason, but it's not for you to understand that yet.
The whole claim that the disciples did not believe that he rose from the dead is not found in the Bible, it is a calim and desperate attempt from muslims, I also addressed the claim that I know you will make above with frizy, go ahead and read it first before you make a fool of yourself.
um you must not have read the gospels to see that they returned to his tomb, that's when they saw that he was not there and then encountered him on the way back.

you are the one making a claim, go ahead and posts up your "facts"

@Lady
Am really getting these days, just like you said classes has started. This summer was really dry, thanks to pals on nairaland

Lol well between classes, work, church, and tutoring, I am extremely busy

@Lady

The questions I asked were in the Trinity thread.

You should be able to serve the questions here regardless of whether you have asked it somewhere else. Besides, I asked for it, so you should be able to give me irrespective of where it is so that we continue with the discussion.

You can go on with the "no crucifixion" proof that you have I can't wait to see it.

I would definitely do that and would also ask you questions based on verses from your bible but would wait for the questions you claimed I didnt answer so that you wouldnt say I didnt answer you but wants you to answer my question

His disciples were present, hello that's why they were able to write about it and one in particular was mentioned for a specific reason, but it's not for you to understand that yet.

Oh, good, its beginning to get interesting . Do you have biblical proof to support the fact that they were present and we will also go into their accounts and see if they really witnessed it. Note that Luke was not a part of those that you would claim that witnessed it because he confessed that he received it from those that claimed to have witnessed it.

The whole claim that the disciples did not believe that he rose from the dead is not found in the Bible, it is a calim and desperate attempt from muslims, I also addressed the claim that I know you will make above with frizy, go ahead and read it first before you make a fool of yourself.

Never mind, we would really who is making fool of himself/herself between you and I as we proceed. We would see that if really his disciples believed in his resurrection,., supporting same with verses from your bible.

um you must not have read the gospels to see that they returned to his tomb, that's when they saw that he was not there and then encountered him on the way back.

Dont rush yourself. We will get there. In fact, it would even include the alleged story of not meeting him when they went looking for him. We would see if his disciples believed his resurrection when they were afraid hearing that he resurrected.

you are the one making a claim, go ahead and posts up your "facts"

Kai, if you know only what you are driving at, you would prefer to back off but never mind, we will continue as this happens to be the foundation of your faith.

Provide your question again and we treat and after that, we go into the crucifixion story.

(Its just that I may not be online like I used to due to Fasting but would still be coming online once in a while).

One more thing, if you didnt hear from me one time, it doesnt mean that I backed out but using the time to meditate on Quran and learning a great deal about Islam but would always see your response in my mailbox.

Salam

You should be able to serve the questions here regardless of whether you have asked it somewhere else. Besides, I asked for it, so you should be able to give me irrespective of where it is so that we continue with the discussion.

I asked you to tell me what the Christian belief of the Trinity is based on what I told you. You didn't. I also asked you which came first, God, His Word, or His Spirit. I also asked other things that I can't remember right now.

I would definitely do that and would also ask you questions based on verses from your bible but would wait for the questions you claimed I didnt answer so that you wouldnt say I didnt answer you but wants you to answer my question

Go to the Trinity thread, look through and you will find my questions, then go ahead and answer them.

I also like the way you're trying to be all responsive, when I know you won't respond. This isn't the first time I have asked you to answer my questions and I am sure as usual you will skip and move on to something else.

Oh, good, its beginning to get interesting . Do you have biblical proof to support the fact that they were present and we will also go into their accounts and see if they really witnessed it. Note that Luke was not a part of those that you would claim that witnessed it because he confessed that he received it from those that claimed to have witnessed it.

Matthew was there and so was John, John is the particular disciple that is very important. He was present at the foot of the cross and this we know. Luke does not contradict the other Gospels written directly by the witnesses. So that holds no base. He received it from Jesus' direct disciples.
We know this to be a historic fact. Sorry but we knew we had to stay true to the traditions so that people like muhammad can't jump up and make claims as these without being able to let him know the truth.

Never mind, we would really who is making fool of himself/herself between you and I as we proceed. We would see that if really his disciples believed in his resurrection,., supporting same with verses from your bible.

Ok, so what are you waiting for?

Dont rush yourself. We will get there. In fact, it would even include the alleged story of not meeting him when they went looking for him. We would see if his disciples believed his resurrection when they were afraid hearing that he resurrected.

I was just trying to get you not to waste my time. Come with substance, I am sick and tired of your usual picking and choosing and dodging and all the nonsense that you do.

Kai, if you know only what you are driving at, you would prefer to back off but never mind, we will continue as this happens to be the foundation of your faith.

Provide your question again and we treat and after that, we go into the crucifixion story.

(Its just that I may not be online like I used to due to Fasting but would still be coming online once in a while).

One more thing, if you didnt hear from me one time, it doesnt mean that I backed out but using the time to meditate on Quran and learning a great deal about Islam but would always see your response in my mailbox.

yeah yeah yeah, post it.

Hey Huxley

I have this scripture for you.

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be
lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient
to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without
self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of
pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power.
Have nothing to do with them.
2 Timothy 3:1-5