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| Strictly For Christians! by MissyB1(m): 10:37pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
I would appreciate it if anyone can throw light on this topic : Did God know Man was going to sin? If yes. . . then why did he create man and regretted his(man's) creation afterwards according to the book of genesis.? If No. . . he is all knowing and how come he wasn't aware of this one? Or Is this one of the things in the bible that doesn't need questionin' and thus. . . I should forget the question and accept it as it is? PS:I would rather get no reasonable reply than have 100 atheist rant annoyingly or insult christianity/God. |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by eldee(m): 10:41pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
Missy B:The power God has given man is the ability to choose He has his plans written down 'His plans for us are of good and not of evil to lead to an expected end' It's our choice to work according to his plans or not He's still all knowing but He won't force anyone to do the right thing, he just expects us to Adam decided to choose the disobedient way so God's hands were tied |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by AKO1(m): 10:44pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
Thanks Eldee, I was about to say something like that. Thing is, if God knew that Adam would sin, it means He would have expected Adam to sin; you get? Now if He expected Adam to sin right from the start there would have been no need for Him to be angry; you get? |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by MissyB1(m): 10:53pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
I see. . . . In other words he wasn't aware. Thanks!!  |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by Nobody: 10:53pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
A_K_O: I don't get this analogy. your father expects a 5 yr old will be naughty and break stuff . . . yet he gets angry when you break a plate or disobey his rules. Why? |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by Nobody: 10:59pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
Missy B: Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. He certainly knew man was going to sin but He wasnt going to use His power to over-ride man's power of choice. Missy B: See it this way - if you have a son (10yrs old) who crashed your best china . . . would you not be angry? Missy B: It is one of the things i actively questioned growing up . . . let me pose a puzzle to you . . . Romans 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth  12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Why would God hate Esau even before he was born?  What did he do wrong? |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by Cayon(f): 11:03pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
I am a Christian but not a born again Christian. Do I have a say?  |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by eldee(m): 11:05pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
Cayon:Definitely . . .  |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by tope2000(f): 11:06pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
This is intresting because i have also wondered about this myself  |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by MissyB1(m): 11:09pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
Cayon:Sure. |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by AKO1(m): 11:18pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
Okay then based on David's analogy I think we could rephrase: Did God expect Adam to sin/Did God anticipate Adam's sin? |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by MissyB1(m): 11:20pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
davidylan:I like this. . . . It makes so much sense to me but davidylan: Of course I will but for an all knowing God . . .if he had known Adam was goin' to sin, why create him at all and later regret it?It's like I sent my son on an errand with full knowledge that if he goes outt'a d house,he will get missin' and after his departure and he's been reported missin'. . . I sit alone and regret ever sendin' him out. Anotha ques is:Can God actualli regret an act he carried out even while he knew its outcome from the start? It's not clear brotha. . . I still don't understand. |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by AKO1(m): 11:28pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
Missy B: The way I see it, if I for instance know that my plans would definately fail I'd rather not embark on them at all so as to avoid the pain of regret. I'd rather venture into things that have a 50-50 chance. . . . . . . . |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by MissyB1(m): 11:43pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
A_K_O:That's exactly my point. . . Why would I do smtin I know wouldn't make me happy |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by Lady2(f): 11:51pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
I have to agree with David look at it this way. Parents know their child is not going to make the right choice in a situation, but alows them to make their choice anyway. I believe that is called free will. It's a gift given to man by God. It is the Power that we have. SO just because our parents know that we won't make the right choice doesn't mean they have to impose their own choice on us. It is the respect that they give us to be the individuals that we are. But being great parents, when they see us fall, they're right there to pick us up. That's why God is truly FATHER!!! |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by MissyB1(m): 11:55pm On Sep 18, 2008 |
Thanx lady. . . I see sense in everything everyone has said even tho one group says he knew while the other says he didn't. Can you throw light on this? Missy B: |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by agaba123(m): 12:04am On Sep 19, 2008 |
Now to to support what eldee has said beautifully God created man and gave man free will. He made man to be like himself. So man has the free will to choose what he wants to choose. That makes him an entity. He forsaw that man could fall and prolly would fall and so he made a provision for a saviour. A very simple way to get back is to believe in the one who would defeat sin-Jesus. so he is all knowing. he made provision for our rescue. It all depends on whether one wants to accept it or not. He is God and he had decided to make man and the world the way he wanted it to please him. He gave man all he needed not to sin. It was not God's fault that man sinned. |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by Lady2(f): 12:05am On Sep 19, 2008 |
Assuming he knew. . . I will continue with my example from above. Parents will regret letting the child make that choice themselves because they will see how much pain came , but that doesn't take away from the fact that everyone has a choice to make, free will is the key here. Whether the decision will be regretted or not, a person has a right to their own will, they have a right to make their choice. |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by Nobody: 3:45am On Sep 19, 2008 |
I was thinking about this for a while when something suddenly dropped into my heart . . . isnt it possible that God who made us can see in 2 directions at the same time? i.e. if Adam had chosen to obey His voice . . . God knew what the end would have been and if Adam ate of the fruit . . . God was well aware of the circumstances. However He was going to give Adam the choice to decide which way to go, to do right or do wrong. A_K_O: that is true from the standpoint of a mortal but while you can see only one side of a coin, God can see both sides at once. It is up to you to then choose what side of the coin you wish to follow, either way God knows what the end of your choice would be . . . disobedience unto death or obedience unto life. Missy B: Yes God can regret the folly of your own choice. The bible says God saw what He created and it was good . . . which means He certainly saw the bliss that earth would have been had we simply followed His rules. At the same time He was fully aware of what life would be like shld we WILFULLY CHOOSE to disobey Him. Lady gave a good scenario earlier . . . i just want us to see something very important. We seem to define God by our own limited standards . . . since we can only see in one plane at a time we have erroneously assumed that God too can only see one plane at once. The Omnipresent and Omniscient knows what kind of life we can live if only we obey Him . . . that is why He shed His blood on the cross so that we might have a way of escape from the law of sin and death. The same Omnipresent knows (sadly) that some will NEVER listen . . . |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by mazaje(m): 4:13am On Sep 19, 2008 |
Pls i will like for any of you to point to any biblical verse where free will was alluded to in the bible or where god said that he has given man free will to choose. . . . . am just curious because i have never come across the word free will in the bible even though most of you guys have resulted to trumping the free will card. . . . i will like to see any reference from the bible to the free will mantra. . . . . . . |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by Nobody: 4:32am On Sep 19, 2008 |
Queenisha pls ignore mazaje . . . i'm sure he read the topic - Strictly for Christians. there are other athiest threads he can post his question on or create his own thread. |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by Queenisha1: 4:36am On Sep 19, 2008 |
davidylan: don't mind the clown His faith (or lack of it) hinges on Christianity. How pathetic John 12:46 "I have come [as] a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 "But in every nation[b] whoever fears Him [/b] and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Acts 10:43 "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." hopefully he understands what the word "whoever" denotes free will and making a choice. |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by Nobody: 4:39am On Sep 19, 2008 |
Just a digression to ensure ALL christians are fully aware that free will is indeed the cornerstone of Christ's dealings with us . . . Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: It is important to note that this is one of the very few places where God swears by anything at all . . . an indication of how serious God took the issue of personal choice. Please can we get on topic please. |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by blesdman(m): 12:03pm On Sep 19, 2008 |
This is a tip to answering this question:CHECK THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE THIS WAS TRANSLATED FROM. Otherwise God is not a man to repent. |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by MissyB1(m): 1:36pm On Sep 19, 2008 |
davidylan:I see but. . . Can God regret HIS actions? Failure for you to answer this. . . . Thanks everyone for ur contributions. . . From David and Lady I have been able to garner that. . . *God knew man was goin' to sin *Man has the ability to choose which way to go *It's possible for God to regret an act he carried out even while he foresaw its outcome. For now. . .I'll live with this knowledge till anyone who's against it can give me/us points to see it the other way round.A.K.O-have you got anything to say to us 'bout God not being aware? |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by topup: 1:54pm On Sep 19, 2008 |
Hmmm. . . one of those questions again  Well, I believe: - Man has free will - God knows what our outcomes will be according to which paths we choose (so he knows if we choose Christ we will live in eternity in Heaven, yet if we choose the way of the world, we will not). - God however, does not know which path we are going to choose (here's where free will comes in). |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by MissyB1(m): 2:09pm On Sep 19, 2008 |
topup:Sorry? topup:The words boldly written above can also be liken to -He didn't know Adam was goin' to sin. Rite? While the statment in bracket can also be translated to -Freewill which man has,has made it impossible for God to know what choice we goin' to make.Thus. . . God isn't all knowing.Rite? Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood your reply. |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by habiolah(m): 2:18pm On Sep 19, 2008 |
Should I ask you another form of this question? Did God know before you were born that you will be confused at this |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by topup: 2:40pm On Sep 19, 2008 |
Missy B: I think you have misunderstood me. I don't believe he knew Adam was going to sin, he merely knew what would happen in Adam didn't sin and what would happen if he did. Free will as in God does not force us to do anything. It is obvious throughout all the Bible that choices have been made, most seem not like free-will because there barely seemed any other logical choice. In Exodus, Moses questioned God a lot, and there was even an instance where he murdered an Egyptian, now, are we to assume that God made Moses to do these things. I am not sure I quite understand your question either MissyB, please explain further. |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by Cayon(f): 2:54pm On Sep 19, 2008 |
First, let me say that this is the religion section. Personally, I don't thing we should head our topic for christians only. If an athiest/muslim answer your question, you have a choice (God gave us) to answer or not to answer Now Miss B: Lets say you have a robot and programmed it to love you, do not lie to you. do not steal, always obey you. he is kind of a yes, yes robot. What fun would that be to you? After a while you are going to get bored with the robot. Why? because you know exactly what the outcome is going to be. On the other hand, God created human and gave us a choice. I think God wanted us to make a choice to accept him and love Him. He could have made us do the right thing but I think for Him it is a much sweeter victory when we come to Him of our own freewill. Peace |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by mnwankwo(m): 2:55pm On Sep 19, 2008 |
Missy B: I offer my perception on the question as follows, albeit briefly. The aswer to the paradox lies in an understanding of what free will is. Free will is that ability that allows us to make a choice. This ability resides in the spirit, not in the brain. The ability itself is not the decision or choice. The choice can be said to be an expression of the ability. Does God know that man will sin? God knew of the possiblity of man disobeying him. The knowlege of the possiblity is however not the same as knowlege of the actualization of the the possibilty. A crude analogy may suffice. Imagine a road junction with roads leading to Nsukka, Enugu, Awka. There are three possibilities for the driver on the junction and one who knew the junction and the roads to the three towns will know where the driver will arrive once he has choosen a particular road, but this person will not know which road the driver will turn until the driver has taken a decision, that is until a choice is made he does not know wheather the driver will turn to the road leading to Nsukka, Awka or Enugu. In a similar way God knows of all possibilities but does not "know" which of the possibilities we will choose. To know implies that their is something to know, that is, their is something in existence. A choice that have not be made does not exist and it is strange to demand that God should know what does not exist. It is like demanding that your son should find a computer in your room when there is no computer. Thus at the time God created man, God foresaw the[b] possibility [/b] that man may disobey him but not that man shall or must disobey him. Besides, the fall of man only refered to a majority of mankind, few human beings still lived as God willed and ascended back to heaven after their experience on earth. Therefore it not[b] all [/b] mankind that sinned or disobeyed God as is often reported. That is, while the majority made the choice to sin, a minority made the choice to live as God willed. Both sections of humanity simply expressed their freewill God cannot regret his actions because the will of God is perfect from the very begining. Why should a perfect action be regretable. The perfection of God makes it impossible for evil or other products of the wrong application of free will to exist forever, the perfection of the laws of God restores the original order. Thus evil didnot exist in the beginning nor will it exist in the end. Evil and imperfections are aberations that exist between the begining and the end of things. Thus the beauty and the perfection of the laws of God does not lie in negating the free will of man but in ensuring that wrongly expressed free will is eliminated once the harvest time is due. 1 Like |
| Re: Strictly For Christians! by MissyB1(m): 3:12pm On Sep 19, 2008 |
habiolah:Dat has in no way got anything to do with this thread.Thanks!! topup:One would expect that before anyone replies a post he/she understands the post. J/K.Well I have so many ques but the most inportant one is: If God knew Adam was goin' to sin,why then did he create Adam and regretted it? To some extent-that proves he didn't know. This ques has norrin to do with you as you've said you believe he didn't know Adam was goin' to sin. |
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