efficiencie:

you see sir, truth is very much like beauty! I can't tell you how beautiful a lady is because you have your own ideal-type. The same with the truth. The truth that i will unlock to you Dapo from the scriptures will be the rantings of a another raving luny when you hear it and its easy to see why that is...

Wow

This is the first time I would hear someone say that the truth is relative to the perceiver.......
Please can u define truth for me according to u?

Dapo777:

Really,I didn't know astro physics and cosmology is studied in Nigeria

Yes, in Nsukka....but if you really want to learn, you have to move out of the country! We simply dont have the faculty and facilities for such studies now. A night on a 10m telescope cost ~ 100, 000 dollars. We simply cant fund that now, but if you are keen about it, you can always move abroad and if you are good enough, you'll make it in the world. I'm not an expert yet, am just a PhD student:-D

Sombrerogalaxy:
Yes, in Nsukka....but if you really want to learn, you have to move out of the country! We simply dont have the faculty and facilities for such studies now. A night on a 10m telescope cost ~ 100, 000 dollars. We simply cant fund that now, but if you are keen about it, you can always move abroad and if you are good enough, you'll make it in the world. I'm not an expert yet, am just a PhD student:-D

PhD student is not an expert kee? Say that again.

efficiencie: Dapo your mind is made up! I guess you keep returning argument for argument simply because it's fun for you or for some other reason...just as mine is made up too and i'm just arguing to flex my mind and spirit...anyways bro! One love!!!

Your own mind is not only made up, it is fearfully and delusionally hardened.

efficiencie:

you see sir, truth is very much like beauty! I can't tell you how beautiful a lady is because you have your own ideal-type. The same with the truth. The truth that i will unlock to you Dapo from the scriptures will be the rantings of a another raving luny when you hear it and its easy to see why that is...

Truth is the property of being in accord with FACT OR REALITY.
SO how is truth relative to the observer? How can u compare truth to beauty?

You are a very logically person from all that I have been seeing here, But the very nature of ur beliefs contradict ur logic.
How would u believe the truth is evolving and never established and yet u believe the Bible is the truth that never evolves.
That reminds me of a mental state called "cognitive dissonance" (make me too speak small grammar) this is not to say u have mental problem But u can make a little research on that mental state,when someone goes against his own logic just to validate a point being proven at that moment.

efficiencie: Dapo your mind is made up! I guess you keep returning argument for argument simply because it's fun for you or for some other reason...just as mine is made up too and i'm just arguing to flex my mind and spirit...anyways bro! One love!!!

No my mind isn't made up yet because it seems u have a very strong point to prove Which is what Am trying to get.
How would a logical person like u still hold on to obvious blunders despite all the logically reasoning?
You have been succeeding in giving strong points to support ur faith,Pls don't run away without answering my questions concerning the earth as described in the Bible,it's hard to come by a logical Christian u kn.

Dapp777, efficiencie, qstar and sombrerogalaxy you guys are doing a great job here and giving me a wonderful read. love the tone this argument has taken. the religious mind is a dogmatic mind that throws reason into the bin. my problem is... why would someone not want to take a few seconds and reason?
my brother once told me why he believed in God... he described how he got a job after praying hard. he said the job came as a miracle... he graduated with 3rd class and according to him, didnt merit the job. the job had come unexpectedly and he was given special preference blah blah blah, but i asked him a simple question: Since you prayed before the job came, could there have been a different (or particular) pattern or form the job would have come that would have made you think it wasnt God's doing?

frank317: Dapp777, efficiencie, qstar and sombrerogalaxy you guys are doing a great job here and giving me a wonderful read. love the tone this argument has taken. the religious mind is a dogmatic mind that throws reason into the bin. my problem is... why would someone not want to take a few seconds and reason?
my brother once told me why he believed in God... he described how he got a job after praying hard. he said the job came as a miracle... he graduated with 3rd class and according to him, didnt merit the job. the job had come unexpectedly and he was given special preference blah blah blah, but i asked him a simple question: Since you prayed before the job came, could there have been a different (or particular) pattern or form the job would have come that would have made you think it wasnt God's doing?

So what was his reply?

Dapo777:

So what was his reply?

lol... he just put up a different kind of argument. he prefer just being angry with me for doubting his beliefs

Dapo777:

Truth is the property of being in accord with FACT OR REALITY.
SO how is truth relative to the observer? How can u compare truth to beauty?

You are a very logically person from all that I have been seeing here, But the very nature of ur beliefs contradict ur logic.
How would u believe the truth is evolving and never established and yet u believe the Bible is the truth that never evolves.
That reminds me of a mental state called "cognitive dissonance" (make me too speak small grammar) this is not to say u have mental problem But u can make a little research on that mental state,when someone goes against his own logic just to validate a point being proven at that moment.

if you were observant sir, you'd notice i'v been consistently arguing this the same way using the outcomes of philosophical discourse and i'l do that again...Facts and reality are relative sir, science confesses that. The Dalton atomic theory was based on what Dalton considered factual and real but unfortunately his facts and reality did not stand times unforgiving test as Rutherford showed.

Many thinkers of old, from Thales to Plato, from Plato to Parmenides, from Russell to Kant all had their conceptualizations of the essense of reality.

So sir if truth to you is based on the much fluid facts and reality man churns out in every age, then truth as you define it is fluid and relative.

efficiencie:

if you were observant sir, you'd notice i'v been consistently arguing this the same way using the outcomes of philosophical discourse and i'l do that again...Facts and reality are relative sir, science confesses that. The Dalton atomic theory was based on what Dalton considered factual and real but unfortunately his facts and reality did not stand times unforgiving test as Rutherford showed.

Many thinkers of old, from Thales to Plato, from Plato to Parmenides, from Russell to Kant all had their conceptualizations of the essense of reality.

So sir if truth to you is based on the much fluid facts and reality man churns out in every age, then truth as you define it is fluid and relative.

Ok,u seem to be very objective when analyzing science,can u be as objective in analyzing the Bible too?

Is the Bible truth? Is it established? Can the Bible evolve? Are the descriptions of earth in the Bible still valid till date?

Please sir I want u to use the same honest scrutiny u used in analyzing science to analyse the description of earth in the Bible. Do they still hold true today?
Thanks.

Dapo777: But the very nature of ur
beliefs contradict ur logic.

Sir that's why beliefs are beliefs, reason is reason! You don't believe science you prove it and you don't prove God you believe him.

If God could be proved, God'll become a subject in science and if science is believed science becomes a religion!

I earlier gave mathematical analogues involving geometry, field theory and complex analysis and the conclusion was that belief and science are in different realms and the rules that apply in both are expected to be different.

So sir I believe Jesus Christ in my spirit and i reason out the logics in my mind...no conflict! The mind and spirit are two different places.

DAPO777: Ok,u seem to be very objective when analyzing
science,can u be as objective in analyzing the
Bible too?

Here we go again and again and again! Objectivity is a feature peculiar to science alone and not spiritual matters. Objectivity implies the scientific method and the scientific method knows it's limits sir.

Elisha cast a stick into water and the stick brought an iron axe head to the surface...is that objective? can that be proven? Moses by God parted the sea, is that objective? Some said the winds decided to blow differently that day and parted the sea but we know that winds blowing fast enough to hold walls of water would also prevent the Israelites from crossing. Bible acclaim that Jesus turned water to wine. How objective and testable is that act? Can water ever become wine in the space of a day!? Has it ever happened? Jesus walked on water. Isn't that a sheer violation of a myriad physical principles!?

Sir objectivity is in the realm of science and not belief!

[size=17]THREAD CLOSED[/size]

Irrelevancies.

...

efficiencie:

Here we go again and again and again! Objectivity is a feature peculiar to science alone and not spiritual matters. Objectivity implies the scientific method and the scientific method knows it's limits sir.

Elisha cast a stick into water and the stick brought an iron axe head to the surface...is that objective? can that be proven? Moses by God parted the sea, is that objective? Some said the winds decided to blow differently that day and parted the sea but we know that winds blowing fast enough to hold walls of water would also prevent the Israelites from crossing. Bible acclaim that Jesus turned water to wine. How objective and testable is that act? Can water ever become wine in the space of a day!? Has it ever happened? Jesus walked on water. Isn't that a sheer violation of a myriad physical principles!?

Sir objectivity is in the realm of science and not belief!

I know.....u are absolutely correct! Spiritual matters cannot be objectively scrutinized.

If you are asked in an exam,to describe the four corners of the earth,where they are located and how they look like,can you tell me what u would write about it?
Imagine I Am the person giving you an oral exam....

Dapo: efficiencie can you give me a brief description of the four corners of the earth,and also tell me what the foundation of the earth is made of and where can it be found?

Dapo777:

I know.....u are absolutely correct! Spiritual matters cannot be objectively scrutinized.

If you are asked in an exam,to describe the four corners of the earth,where they are located and how they look like,can you tell me what u would write about it?
Imagine I Am the person giving you an oral exam....

Dapo: efficiencie can you give me a brief description of the four corners of the earth,and also tell me what the foundation of the earth is made of and where can it be found?

My answer would be 'i don't know.I haven't been in a plane let alone orbit.So i don't have evidence to answer that question''

efficiencie:

My answer would be 'i don't know.I haven't been in a plane let alone orbit.So i don't have evidence to answer that question''

Dapo: what do you mean by you don't have evidence? Is it not mentioned in the Bible?

Dapo777:

Dapo: what do you mean by you don't have evidence? Is it not mentioned in the Bible?

That it is mentioned in the bible does not make it evidence. Evidence must be verifiable, observable and consistent...and more than 90% of the bible is shrouded with unverifiable, unobservable and inconsistent mysteries...The foundations...,corner of the earth...stuff are entities i don't know off and i possibly can't know by my power so i simply BELIEVE the scripture though i don't know!

knowledge is based on reason and evidence, beliefs are based on faith!

...so you may not KNOW but yet you BELIEVE and you may not BELIEVE but yet you KNOW...

efficiencie:

That it is mentioned in the bible does not make it evidence. Evidence must be verifiable, observable and consistent...and more than 90% of the bible is shrouded with unverifiable, unobservable and inconsistent mysteries...The foundations...,corner of the earth...stuff are entities i don't know off and i possibly can't know by my power so i simply BELIEVE the scripture though i don't know!

Wow
I didn't put words into ur mouth ooo,can u see a Christian admitting that it is in the Bible doesn't make it Evidence.
Now I get ur stand.

It's now very obvious that the Bible doesn't make sense to u,But u just chose to believe it.
Goodluck bro.
Thanks for all ur replies anyway
Ciao

Dapo777:

Wow
I didn't put words into ur mouth ooo,can u see a Christian admitting that it is in the Bible doesn't make it Evidence.
Now I get ur stand.

It's now very obvious that the Bible doesn't make sense to u,But u just chose to believe it.
Goodluck bro.
Thanks for all ur replies anyway
Ciao

if the bible made sense we won't be arguing. Even paul stated that 'preaching amounts to foolishness'. So if the bible made sense Christianity would be a science but it doesn't and it musn't for it to remain a faith...So i believe though i don't know and it doesn't make sense.

efficiencie:

if the bible made sense we won't be arguing. Even paul stated that 'preaching amounts to foolishness'. So if the bible made sense Christianity would be a science but it doesn't and it musn't for it to remain a faith...So i believe though i don't know and it doesn't make sense.

Good thing you know the Buy-bull doesn't make sense.

Apatheist:
Good thing you know the Buy-bull doesn't make sense.

It musn't sir. It musn't make sense particularly to those bound by science..any sound Christian would easily agree to that!

efficiencie:

It musn't sir. It musn't make sense particularly to those bound by science..any sound Christian would easily agree to that!

It doesn't make sense. That's why you rely on "faith"
It's like someone believing the earth is flat admist conflicting evidence showing otherwise. They have "faith" but faith doesn't make things true.

Apatheist:
It doesn't make sense. That's why you rely on "faith"
It's like someone believing the earth is flat admist conflicting evidence showing otherwise. They have "faith" but faith doesn't make things true.

Where did the Bible say the earth is flat!? Can you point out a verse or two that alludes to that!?

...and while you are at that please address this issue

The Law of Conservation of Matter 'states that Matter can neither the created nor destroyed but can be transformed from one form to another'. If this law holds true then man must exist in a state, long before he was born and after he dies and cease to exist in the physical world he must continue to exist albeit in another form, so tell me where was man before he was born and what is his fate long after he's dead?

efficiencie: ...and while you are at that please address this issue

The Law of Conservation of Matter 'states that Matter can neither the created nor destroyed but can be transformed from one form to another'. If this law holds true then man must exist in a state, long before he was born and after he dies and cease to exist in the physical world he must continue to exist albeit in another form, so tell me where was man before he was born and what is his fate long after he's dead?

You were existing in the form of sem.en before. After death, you'll become a manure to the soil( i.e. if you are buried).

...while you are at that consider this to:

if the ACCIDENT of the big bang started all existence and the planets were formed by ACCIDENT and life started on earth by ACCIDENT and man evolutionary path was chosen by ACCIDENT and man evolved sexu.al organs by ACCIDENT and man began sexu.al activity by ACCIDENT...can i safely say YOU WERE BORN BY ACCIDENT and your actions and deeds are purely an ACCIDENT...are acts of benevolence and malevolence ACCIDENTAL...if yes, then the acts of the BOKO HARAM SECT must be justified on the basis of the 'scientific fact' that the ESSENSE OF REALITY IS ROOTED IN ACCIDENTS

qstar:

You were existing in the form of sem.en before. After death, you'll become a manure to the soil( i.e. if you are buried).

before man was sem.en and ova (you left that out, sir) what was man...and when man spends his time as manure in the earth, if buried, what does he transcend into...[I sense a state of infinite regress, but lets go on!]

^^^

You doubt science. You take science as god's enemy. You believe science is lying to denigrate your religion.

What else can i say? Believe whatever you want to believe, even if 90% of the world population believed same with you, that doesn't make it true.
Just as I can believe that mermaids exist, that doesn't make it true too. It only exists in my mind.