TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES
1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?

2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?

3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?

4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?

5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?

6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?

7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?

8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?

9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?

10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.

I guess Ukraine is getting support from NATO, so those questions won't be asked.

well crafted as if the 10 questions was your idea.

Russia need to b ask these quetion.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/mh17-crash-hear-moment-russian-3877080

www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/ukraine-intercepted-audio-shows-separatist-rebels-shot-malaysia-airlines-plane/

www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/ukraine-releases-youtube-clip-proving-rebels-shot-down-malaysian-flight-mh-17

Nairaminted, I will like you to copy and paste these url addresses to check out more news of the shooting of the Malaysian airliner. I always like a fair, objective, independent and balanced view of current affairs. Why would we want to pin the downing of the plane on Ukrainian military when there are evidences of culpability of the Ukrainian rebels as indicated in the above news reports?

Your take is that the plane could not have been downed by a simple missile trajectory launcher. That's true. But mark this report quoted from the first link I posted above on Ukraine separatists' possession of a more complex missile,

"... A US official also reportedly said a single surface-to-air missile, fired from a complex launch system, was suspected to have brought the jet down.

Last month a Russian military news channel reported a Ukrainian launcher had fallen into the hands of separatists.
A similar one was seen by journalists in nearby Snizhne yesterday..."

More evidence and actual footage of Ukrainian rebels using sophisticated missile to down the Malaysian airliner here:

2k14vide0finder.com/watchhere/MH17Crash.php/#

HolyHolla: www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/mh17-crash-hear-moment-russian-3877080

www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/ukraine-intercepted-audio-shows-separatist-rebels-shot-malaysia-airlines-plane/

www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/ukraine-releases-youtube-clip-proving-rebels-shot-down-malaysian-flight-mh-17

Nairaminted, I will like you to copy and paste these url addresses to check out more news of the shooting of the Malaysian airliner. I always like a fair, objective, independent and balanced view of current affairs. Why would we want to pin the downing of the plane on Ukrainian military when there are evidences of culpability of the Ukrainian rebels as indicated in the above news reports?

Your take is that the plane could not have been downed by a simple missile trajectory launcher. That's true. But mark this report quoted from the first link I posted above on Ukraine separatists' possession of a more complex missile,

"... A US official also reportedly said a single surface-to-air missile, fired from a complex launch system, was suspected to have brought the jet down.

Last month a Russian military news channel reported a Ukrainian launcher had fallen into the hands of separatists.
A similar one was seen by journalists in nearby Snizhne yesterday..."

More evidence and actual footage of Ukrainian rebels using sophisticated missile to down the Malaysian airliner here:

2k14vide0finder.com/watchhere/MH17Crash.php/#

HollyHolla,

If you want a fair, objective, independent and balanced view of this situation, then you should be able to see clearly that the headlines regarding MH17 emanating from the West are the most outrageous, irresponsible, hate-driven, dangerous propaganda I have ever read.

"Putin's Missile," "Putin Killed My Son," "With Jet’s Fall, War in Ukraine Becomes Global," - the headlines ... penned with absolutely no evidence at all to back up any of the claims ... echo the vitriolic war propaganda that inundated the global public when NATO gassed thousands of Syrians in Damascus in August 2013 - now confirmed to be a false flag.

Remember these headlines? "Bashar al-Assad kills 1,300 in Syrian nerve gas attack," "French president accuses Syria’s Assad of gassing his own citizens," and "Obama: Syria changed when Assad gassed citizens."

When it turned out NATO's regional partners had supplied terrorists with sarin and they were the ones behind the attack, the incident, despite allegedly killing over a thousand people and leaving many more ill, disappeared from headlines and is rarely if ever mentioned again. The "evidence" promised by the West never materialized and the UN NEVER determined who carried it out.

I will say that right now there is very little evidence to say what happened in Ukraine with flight MH17 - all I can do is look at what is most probable and wait for real evidence to emerge. What I am CERTAIN of however, is what the West is claiming - without evidence - are fabrications, lies, propaganda, and all fitting precisely the same diseased distortions used in their attempts to justify military intervention in Syria.

Remember how close it came? Imagine if they succeeded in launching an attack on Syria with what we now know about Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar's involvement in arming terrorists with sarin to carry out the August 2013 attack...


About the Russsian news channel that reported that a missile battery had fallen into the hands of separatists; it could very well be true BUT that still doesn't prove the separatists were responsible for downing MH17. Remember also that it was reported that the Ukranian Army too had deployed such batteries to that region a day or two before.

And about that video purpotedly showing separatists discussing the downing of the plane, it doesn't, first of all show a missile being fired. Second, how were the Ukranian authorities able to lay their hands on a footage only a few hours after the indicent? Third, if you read another post of mine, it clearly shows that that video was uploaded a day before MH17 was brought down! Finally, have you even considered the possibility that this video is actual an authentic footage of separatists celebrating the downing of a plane BUT in this case a military one from a previous attack. I believe you are an intelligent and enligntened individual that is capable of piecing all these together...


Let's not ever forget that the West is very adept and skillful at the art of propaganda and perception, shaping public opinion and shedding itself in a positive and humanesque light; potraying itself as a bastion of peace, freedom and liberaion. The West has got at it's disposal a myriad of these so-called think-tanks and NGOS (the likes of IRI, AEI, The Brookings Institute, Chatham House, NED, Soros Foundation, etc) that do it's bidding where the policies and strategies of the West that enable it to hold unto its economic and military strangehold of the world are actually are created.

Who can forget how a young lady claiming to be a nurse from Kuwait and just before the start of the first Gulf War, stood before American senators narrating tearfully how invading Iraqi soldiers were snatching Kuwaiti babies from their incubators at the hospitals. It later turned out that this story was a fabrication and that the young lady was actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti amabassador to the US. Her masterful performance however was enough to sway public opinion and soon after the senate granted their US administration their war.

Russia has to beat or at least match the West at its game. It has to collate all data or evidence it may have at it's disposal and should the Ukranian authorities be the culpable party, present its case in a detailed but yet clear, methodical and irrefutable manner. As a matter of fact, Putin himself should hold a press conference whereupon his case would be presented and within that conference, use the same words & phrases that the West loves to use - "tragedy", "criminal act", "act of terror", "perpetrators brought to book and made to face international law", "our hearts and prayers" etc.... What's more? Putin should do all this in English! Propaganda is all about perception and from what I have learnt so far speaking to the world in a foreign, strange language - Russian in this case - doesn't win you to the hearts and minds of people. How do you supose ISIS has been able to recruit so many young men from Europe? It has departed from the usual firebrand jihadist rhetoric normally employed by Islamic terror groups and adopted a "cool" and westernized style that appeals to young men in Europe to woo them

HollyHolla, What you rather should seek is the outcome of a full indepedent investigation and answers to the questions and demands that Russia has made of Ukraine in my ealier post.

NairaMinted:

HollyHolla,

If you want a fair, objective, independent and balanced view of this situation, then you should be able to see clearly that the headlines regarding MH17 emanating from the West are the most outrageous, irresponsible, hate-driven, dangerous propaganda I have ever read.

"Putin's Missile," "Putin Killed My Son," "With Jet’s Fall, War in Ukraine Becomes Global," - the headlines ... penned with absolutely no evidence at all to back up any of the claims ... echo the vitriolic war propaganda that inundated the global public when NATO gassed thousands of Syrians in Damascus in August 2013 - now confirmed to be a false flag.

Remember these headlines? "Bashar al-Assad kills 1,300 in Syrian nerve gas attack," "French president accuses Syria’s Assad of gassing his own citizens," and "Obama: Syria changed when Assad gassed citizens."

When it turned out NATO's regional partners had supplied terrorists with sarin and they were the ones behind the attack, the incident, despite allegedly killing over a thousand people and leaving many more ill, disappeared from headlines and is rarely if ever mentioned again. The "evidence" promised by the West never materialized and the UN NEVER determined who carried it out.

I will say that right now there is very little evidence to say what happened in Ukraine with flight MH17 - all I can do is look at what is most probable and wait for real evidence to emerge. What I am CERTAIN of however, is what the West is claiming - without evidence - are fabrications, lies, propaganda, and all fitting precisely the same diseased distortions used in their attempts to justify military intervention in Syria.

Remember how close it came? Imagine if they succeeded in launching an attack on Syria with what we now know about Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar's involvement in arming terrorists with sarin to carry out the August 2013 attack...


About the Russsian news channel that reported that a missile battery had fallen into the hands of separatists; it could very well be true BUT that still doesn't prove the separatists were responsible for downing MH17. Remember also that it was reported that the Ukranian Army too had deployed such batteries to that region a day or two before.

And about that video purpotedly showing separatists discussing the downing of the plane, it doesn't, first of all show a missile being fired. Second, how were the Ukranian authorities able to lay their hands on a footage only a few hours after the indicent? Third, if you read another post of mine, it clearly shows that that video was uploaded a day before MH17 was brought down! Finally, have you even considered the possibility that this video is actual an authentic footage of separatists celebrating the downing of a plane BUT in this case a military one from a previous attack. I believe you are an intelligent and enligntened individual that is capable of piecing all these together...


Let's not ever forget that the West is very adept and skillful at the art of propaganda and perception, shaping public opinion and shedding itself in a positive and humanesque light; potraying itself as a bastion of peace, freedom and liberaion. The West has got at it's disposal a myriad of these so-called think-tanks and NGOS (the likes of IRI, AEI, The Brookings Institute, Chatham House, NED, Soros Foundation, etc) that do it's bidding where the policies and strategies of the West that enable it to hold unto its economic and military strangehold of the world are actually are created.

Who can forget how a young lady claiming to be a nurse from Kuwait and just before the start of the first Gulf War, stood before American senators narrating tearfully how invading Iraqi soldiers were snatching Kuwaiti babies from their incubators at the hospitals. It later turned out that this story was a fabrication and that the young lady was actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti amabassador to the US. Her masterful performance however was enough to sway public opinion and soon after the senate granted their US administration their war.

Russia has to beat or at least match the West at its game. It has to collate all data or evidence it may have at it's disposal and should the Ukranian authorities be the culpable party, present its case in a detailed but yet clear, methodical and irrefutable manner. As a matter of fact, Putin himself should hold a press conference whereupon his case would be presented and within that conference, use the same words & phrases that the West loves to use - "tragedy", "criminal act", "act of terror", "perpetrators brought to book and made to face international law", "our hearts and prayers" etc.... What's more? Putin should do all this in English! Propaganda is all about perception and from what I have learnt so far speaking to the world in a foreign, strange language - Russian in this case - doesn't win you to the hearts and minds of people. How do you supose ISIS has been able to recruit so many young men from Europe? It has departed from the usual firebrand jihadist rhetoric normally employed by Islamic terror groups and adopted a "cool" and westernized style that appeals to young men in Europe to woo them

HollyHolla, What you rather should seek is the outcome of a full indepedent investigation and answers to the questions and demands that Russia has made of Ukraine in my ealier post.

Well, my dear friend, I'm not a fan of western military interventions, neither of their propaganda. But I'm not also a fan of Russian interventions and their propaganda too. Even much more, I am extremely wary and scared of Islamists military interventions which are laced with suspicion of a caliphate ressurrecting a Madhi empire that would result in fresh and more deadly rounds of violence and catastrophic conflagrations all over the world. If BH in Nigeria alone does not wake us up on our toes to the evil of Islamists, then I wonder what will. They are killing everybody, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, southerners, northerners, foreigners et al in crude and despicable manners!!!

If you notice from foregoings, I'm not the one who concluded that whatever comes from either side is false flag. But waiting a bit to see what all parties are saying, I can now safely conclude that your suspicion and conspiracy theories of definite western involvement in the shooting down of the Malaysian plane may actually be misplaced. That is why I'm involving in this discourse. You, my dear, stated categorically that the west must be culpable. I say, let's give time to know who is. Russia is no saint. They as well as the west and Islamists too are seeking to extend their empires at the expense of peace in the world.

I don't believe that whatever comes from a black pot must be black, so I hate to accept conspiracy theories without evidence. But seeing more and more evidence emerge from the incident, I'm more supicious of Russian involvement than western involvement. I am prepared to wait for outcome of independent investigations, my Brother. But are you?
Have you shown such preparedness?

I read your posts and at times I'm in agreement, while at other times I just decide not to intervene because most times, I don't see the independence and non-partisanship in your analyses. Most times, I share your concerns about western strategies too. Their military interventions, their support of renegades outside their territories and their supremacy ideals are repugnant. But you will definitely not prove to be as independent minded as claimed if you always support one side and condemn the other without final evidences and investigations and often come up with conspiracy theories. I see you doing just that, but I believe that It's time to sheath the swords of blames and wait to see what concludes.

If only your analyses could be more balanced, I will always want to engage you in intellectual discourse on global current events because I've noticed that unlike a lot of people who just follow public opinions and tabloid analyses, you are more capable of reasoning on your own. But my fear is that you are mostly unbending. Your defense of your position on this matter in spite of other expressed views confirms this, my friend. I wish we could engage more mutual intelligent discourse, but if you are always on one side, that could never be. And I definitely would to want to petty myself into virulent attacks on social media just because I want a discourse.

My adivice to you is, let's strive for more objectivity and reduce finger pointing and you will see other intelligent people like you popping up more on your posts.

HolyHolla:

Well, my dear friend, ..................
................ popping up more on your posts.

Whilst I do admit that my views lean strongly towards the anti-west camp, it is for justified reasons.

Just look at some of the precedence that the West has set:

- The subsequently discredited Ghouta chemical attacks August last year in which the West - without
providing any shred of evidence - rushed into pinning on the SYrian goverment, conveniently overlooking
the fact that a senior UN weapons inspector had blamed a similar attack at Khan-Assal, March of that
same year on insurgents.

- The fabricated "slam-dunk evidence" that Colin Powell presented to the UN security council back in
2003 as the Bush administration built a case for an unprovoked and unjustified war against Iraq, a
country which today I must add is now a cesspool of sectarian violence and instability, a situation
very much in contrast to the peace, stability and liberation that the West promised.

What of Libya? How is the "liberation" of the Libyan people post Ghaddafi working out? And Syria? Do
you really believe that the crisis unfolding in Syria and now Iraq is as a result of Assad's refusal to
meet the demands of peaceful protesters? You should keep in mind that Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist
Seymour Hersh in his article, "The Redirection: Is the Administration's new policy benefiting our
enemies in the war on terrorism?" prophetically stated (emphasis added):

"To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect,
to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has coöperated with
Saudi Arabia’s government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken
Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in
clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the
bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America
and sympathetic to Al Qaeda."

This was in 2007!

Are you even aware that high ranking Turkish officials (a NATO member country) were caught discussing
how to stage a false flag attack as a pretext for military intervention in Syria sometime last year?
And how this was leaked thereby leading to Youtube being blocked in Turkey?
All these is what makes me highly skeptical of whatever the West presents as "evidence". It's lies and
falsifications continues to get exposed and it's insidious creation and support of extreme, barbaric
elements while duplicitously dorning a garment of peace, prosperity and freedom is exactly what makes
me suspicious of the West's intentions.

Did you, my friend even bother to look up the things I mentioned in my last post, that you have now
dismissed as conspiracy theories? Which is the conspiracy? Are you aware that the "evidence" promised
by the West with regards to Ghouta never materialized and the UN NEVER determined who carried it
out.
Why have you decided to avoid some of my posts? Please by all means, join the discussion and air your
views as I always look forward to an engaging discourse with intelligent, critical thinking and
progressive individuals. The kind that are incapable of a such thought provoking and analytical
discussion but rather resort to going off topic, citing irrelevant accounts, continually displaying
their bigoted, uncompromising beliefs and trading insults, I simply ignore. I do however appreciate
your agreement with me on a host of issues and yes, my post heavily swung in favour of a conspiracy
from the West but based the antecedents of the West, why wouldn't I?

Finally, read my post again. I never concluded that this downing was a false flag. I only asked
pertinent questions and reminded readers of the past manipulations, distortions and deceptions of the
West when it provided falsified, fictitious and fabricated evidence that weighed so heavily against the
accused so much so that it seemed that the accused was irretractably nailed?
I subscribe to Business Insider and I have read ALL those articles you sent prior to you even
posting them. It follows the same pattern of unrelenting, unabated, irresponsbile and heavily biased
propaganda that ensued after the chemical attack in Syria even though nothing is yet to be confirmed
and 'evidence" provided so far is all circumstantial - and whether you accept it or not, can be
rebuffed.

Russia too is very much capable of its own propaganda and I must admit that some of the actions of the
separatists has been suspicious but like I said before, we should all wait for the outcome of a full
indepedent investigation rather than rush into a hasty conclusion as we have several times in the past
and should the separatists be found to be the guilty party, I would be the first to own up that I had
wrong with my suspicions.

......Western Media Deception, New Information and Questions About Malaysian Flight MH 17

http://www.globalresearch.ca/western-media-deception-new-information-and-questions-about-malaysian-flight-mh-17/5392095



By Brandon Turbeville

Global Research, July 19, 2014

Activist Post 18 July 2014





Only yesterday, I wrote an article entitled “6 Reasons To Question The Official Story Of The Malaysian Flight Over Ukraine” where, as the title suggests, I briefly discussed a number of reasons the story presented by Western media outlets blaming Ukrainian separatists and even the Russian government for shooting down the plane were both contradictory and dubious.

Now, on the day after the crash of the flight, more information has emerged regarding the details surrounding what actually brought the flight down. Yet, as is typical in international incidents, the Western press reports simply add more questions to the pile.

First, it is important to point out the deceptive nature of many of the Western reports so it can be demonstrated that the credibility of all future reports should be viewed as highly questionable.

For instance, in the late hours of the evening, a volley of reports emerged suggesting that a Ukrainian separatist leader had Tweeted a statement gloating over shooting down the Malaysian flight before subsequently deleting the Tweet. In reality, the Twitter statement suggested that the separatists had downed an AN-26, a much smaller cargo transport plane, not the Malaysian flight. If those controlling the Twitter account had fired upon the plane, it seems unlikely that they would have confused the aircraft since there is such a difference in their size.

It was subsequently revealed that the Twitter account being reported upon was not actually run by the commander but that it was a “fan page.” The latter has been curiously left out of later reports.

Even if the Tweet had been from the separatist leader, however, it would only prove that the separatists had made a tragic mistake. Any pilot or aviation authority flying over this area of Ukraine would indeed have to be acting in a provocative manner, terribly lost, or clinically insane.

It is also important to point out that the entire discussion surrounding the type of missile that brought the plane down has been entirely controlled from the beginning. Initially, suggestions were that the plane was brought down by separatists using shoulder-fired missiles. However, it was soon revealed that shoulder-fired missiles could not have reached a plane flying at those altitudes.

Next, the idea came that the separatists or the Russians used BUK medium-range missiles to bring down the plane. Of course, the Russians do possess BUK missiles. Western media then seized upon a single report in the Russian press, an institution that is repeatedly denigrated when it contradicts the NATO party line but cited as fact when it corroborates it, which suggests that the rebels had seized a base in late June and now had BUK missiles in their possession.

Conveniently, there is no mention of the ITAR-TASS report that the Ukrainian military had moved its BUK missile system into Donetsk the day before the plane was brought down.

Very few mainstream outlets, however, are even considering the possibility that it was the Ukrainian military that shot down the Malaysian plane. This is simply because the goal of this whole ordeal, in addition to overshadowing the genocide taking place in Gaza, is to drum up international hostility toward Russia and the separatists that it supports.

It is also important to point out that nowhere in the mainstream press are there any suggestions of the possibility that it was not a missile that brought down the plane. That is, there is no suggestion of this possibility unless it can be blamed on Russia.

What is notable is the fact that there are emerging reports that the Malaysian flight was actually being escorted by Ukrainian military jets only 3 minutes before it crashed.

This report, released by E Turbo News, a global travel news agency, suggested that, not only was the plane being escorted by Ukrainian military jets but that air traffic records were immediately confiscated after the plane went down. The report suggests that internal communication acknowledged that the Ukrainian military was involved but shed no light on where the shootdown orders came from. Speculation ranging from a simple and tragic accident to an attempted coup by Timoshenko forces against the Presidency of Poroshenko have since arisen.

As E Turbo News reports,


ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.

Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.

Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.

Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region.

Some tweets received suggest this may have been a secret military uprising against the current Ukrainian president under the direction of formerly-jailed Prime Minister Timoshenko.

Perhaps the most important question to ask in regards to the Malaysian flight situation, however, isCui Bono? Who Benefits?

Tony Cartalucci asks this question and provides some answers in his own article “Kiev Losing, Sanctions Flopped, Airliner Down, War Back on?” where he writes,


The remote possibility that separatists obtained a sophisticated Buk anti-air missile system, was able to maintain and operate it, failed to identify the Malaysian 777, and exercised the poor judgment to fire on it – would make the tragedy a catastrophic case of mistaken identity – for the separatists have no conceivable reason to fire on a Malaysian passenger liner – and absolutely nothing to gain by doing so.


However, for the regime in Kiev facing decimated and unraveling military forces in the east, growing dissent in the west, and Western sponsors who are unable to materialize any form of meaningful aid militarily, economically, or politically – shooting down a civilian airliner and blaming it on the separatists could unite public opinion and the leadership of European nations behind NATO and the US for a more direct intervention on behalf of Kiev and change the tide of what is now a battle they will otherwise inevitably lose.

The West is already working hard to set the stage for such a scenario. The BBC in an article titled, “Malaysia airliner crashes in east Ukraine conflict zone,” stated that:


Sir Tony Brenton, a former UK ambassador to Russia, told BBC News it would not be a huge surprise if suspicion initially fell on the rebels.


“That would be very damaging both for them and for their Russian supporters,” he said.


“The Russians have undoubtedly been supplying them with weapons, almost certainly with anti-aircraft weapons, so Russia would very likely be implicated and that would raise the volume of international criticism of Russia.”

Only the West and their proxies in Kiev would stand to benefit from this – and commentators like Tony Brenton and the BBC intentionally prey on the ignorance of their audience in hopes that they don’t know the difference between the Igla systems separatists most likely have, and the Buk system they most likely don’t have or are unable to operate.

This is the second Malaysian 777 to be lost under extraordinary circumstances this year. Malaysian flight MH370 disappeared in March, 2014, and has yet to be found despite unprecedented international search efforts.

Regardless of the true causes of the crash of Malaysian flight 777, it is clear that the world oligarchy is, at the very least, not letting a good crisis go to waste. The ability to distract from Western-backed genocides occurring simultaneously across the world as well as domestic issues and the world economic depression has been conveniently provided by the Malaysian flight shootdown.....

Nairaminted, you just confirmed the errors I lay at your doorsteps again. I'll like to see more of this kind of posts quoted under, that show remorse over your jumping to conclusions on issues affecting the west and other nations rather than the usual refutal of your complicity in false flag conspiracy theories. In the other discussion stream, you admitted to error of your quick fix conspiracy theories. Here, you still insist that your theories are correctly placed. In this stream, you claimed not to have jumped into quick conclusions, but only raising questions, but in the other, you admitted from the under-quoted that indeed, you jumped too fast.

You still need to be more flexible to show objectivity. Sentimentalism and dogmatic support for one side against the other will never cut good arguments in intelligensia discourse. Objectivity and non-partisanship will foster better arguments that would not be not repulsive to sensibilities of other intelligent people. See how repulsive all4naija felt about your post. Good a thing you answered him with caution and decorum, else the argument would have resorted to an exchange of virulent attacks and abuses. This is exactly what I want us to avoid in the discussions.

all4naija wrote:

"That is total BS! You are back with your usual bullcrap! That is nonsensical! I find it interesting when you go sentimental and resort to all forms of conspiracy theories to support your views. That is the most disturbing part of your post."

You replied,

"Oh yes indeed! In hindsight I can tell that I was sentimental with that last post. Did I actually lay
blame directly at NATOs's feet in the las post? wOW! I shouldn't have allowed my sentiments get the
better of me. I was just typing passionately. I rather meant to say NATO/West is as well very capable
of such an act as their past actions ..."

HolyHolla: Nairaminted, you just confirmed..."

I have admitted already that I was overly zealous in that one post but I have pretty much maintained the same cautious, methodical and analytical position in other posts. I don't know why you have decided to dwell on that one error so much whilst overlooking the other points I raised...

Like I said before, I am entirely justified to be suspicious of the credibility of Western intelligence and arriving at a hasty judgement before any solid evidence is provided - or even before a proper investigation commences - is folly. Can't you you at all remember that this is exactly the same frenzied manner events unfolded lasT year after the Ghouta chemical attack? And what is the verdict today??

And as you can see for yourself concerning MH17, doubts are beginning to surface as to the credibility of some of these "evidences". I have pointed out the date issue with the video that was allegedly made by the separatists celebrating the downing of MH17. Also, how certain is anybody that this is footage from MH17 not some earlier victory? The separatists if you recollect had been shooting down a number of aircrafts in recent weeks with manpads. What about the very laughable video showing the Buk being transported back to Russia? Lol! It is so poorly managed, you have to wonder at the expertise of the folks behind that video...That footage of the Buk been moved back to Russia was actually taken in Ukranian territory! The Russians have also provided satellite footage of a Buk battery being moved just prior to the crash. There was an US experimental launch detection satellite was exactly over the area at the moment of the tragedy? Do the Americans care to share that intel with us? Ehn oga?? You remember how it was all over the news some days ago that the blackboxes were in Moscow? Well, guess what? They have been handed over to the Malaysian authorities.... Who is the lying party now?

I hope you do realize however that you on the other hand has squarely pitched your tent with the other camp because what you have done so far is parrot Washington's assessment that the separatists were "most likely" responsible although "nothing yet has been confirmed" or "independently verified". All you have done so far is post several articles from Western news media which in reality are mouthpieces of the State Department all based on yet unconfirmed, unverified and most importantly - yet to be investigated claims.


A man is rushed into a hospital and his wounds seems to be that inflicted by a gun. You immediately conclude that it was a 9mm that was used not a .45ACP without a closer examination or a ballistics test? No examination of the wreckage or the back boxes yet or ANYTHING yet, the separatists are guilty!!! Think oga....I know you are smart and I want you to think about all possible scenarios in this case.

Whatever happened to the Western mantra of "innocent until proven guilty"? You sir, have served judgement even before the case is heard!

You can continue to dwell on my "lack of objectivity" and "me jumping into conlusions" or we could address each of the points I raised to see if there is a compelling case.....

Note: Kiev is yet to answer the intial 10 questions. Rather they have been gping about frothing in the mouth hinging all their claims and hope on those "unverified", "unconfirmed" and now discredited video...


10 more questions Russian military pose to Ukraine, US over MH17 crash


Published time: July 21, 2014 23:23
Edited time: July 22, 2014 13:56
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Head of General Staff of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andrey Kartopolov ( left) and chief of the Air Force Main Staff Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev ( right) at a media conference in Moscow, July 21 (RIA Novosti / Vadim Savitsky)


Russia has released military monitoring data, which shows Kiev military jets tracking the MH17 plane shortly before the crash - and posed yet another set of questions to Ukraine and the US over the circumstances of the tragedy.

Military officials – chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andrey Kartopolov and chief of the Air Force Main Staff Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev - posed a number of questions to Kiev and Washington concerning the possible causes of the catastrophe in Eastern Ukraine that killed almost 300 people last Thursday.

1. Why did the MH17 plane leave the international corridor?

“Please note that the plane stayed within the corridor until it reached Donetsk but then it deviated from the route to the north,” said Kartopolov.

2. Was MH17 leaving the route a navigation mistake or was the crew following instructions by Ukrainian air traffic controllers in Dnepropetrovsk?

“The maximum deviation from the left border of the corridor was 14 km. Following that, we can see the plane maneuvering to return to the corridor, yet the Malaysian crew did not get a chance to complete the maneuver. At 17.20, the plane began to lose speed, and at 17.23 it disappeared from Russian radars.”

3. Why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held area if the self-defense forces have no planes?

“As far as we know, the Ukrainian military had three or four air defense battalions equipped with Buk-M1 SAM systems deployed in the vicinity of Donetsk on the day of the crash. This system is capable of hitting targets within the range of 35 km at the altitude of up to 22 km.”



Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014. (RIA Novosti)


4. Why did Kiev deploy BUK missile systems on the edge of militia-controlled zones directly before the tragedy?

“We have satellite photos of the places where Ukraine had its air defense units deployed in the southeastern parts of the country. The first three photos were made on July 14. The first photo shows Buk launchers 8 km northwest of Lugansk. You can clearly see a TELAR and two TELs. The second photo shows radars 5 km north of Donetsk. You can see two TARs along with other equipment and technical structures. The third photo shows air defense systems north of Donetsk. You can clearly see a TELAR launcher and about 60 military and auxiliary vehicles, tents for vehicles and other structures.

“Here’s a photo of the same area made on July 17. Please note that the launcher has disappeared. The fifth photo shows a battery of Buk missiles at the village of Zaroshchenskoye 50 km east of Donetsk and 8 km south of Shakhtyorsk on the morning of the same day. The sixth photo shows the same area on July 18. As you can see, the battery has left.”



No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014. (RIA Novosti)


5. On the day of the crash Kiev intensified Kupol-M1 9S18 radar activity, key BUK system components. Why?

“Also, July 17 saw increased activity on the part of Ukraine’s Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are part of the Buk system. Here on this chart you see that there were seven radars operating on July 15, eight radars operating on July 16, and nine radars operating on July 17 in the area. Then, starting with July 18, the intensity of radar activities radically decreased, and now there are no more than two or three radars operating a day. The reason behind this is yet to be found.”

6. What was a military plane doing on the route intended for civilian flights?

“There were three civilian planes in the area performing their regular flights at this time. There was a flight from Copenhagen to Singapore at 17:17, there was a flight from Paris to Taipei at 17:24, and then there was the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.”

“Also, Russian monitoring systems registered that there was a Ukrainian Air Force jet, probably Su-25, climbing and approaching the Malaysian Boeing.”

“The Su-25 was 3-5 km away from the Malaysian plane. Su-25 is capable of climbing to the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short period of time. Its standard armament includes R60 air-to-air missiles, which are capable of locking and hitting targets from 12 km and which are guaranteed to hit the target from the distance of 5 km.”



(RIA Novosti / Vadim Savitsky)

7. Why was the military jet flying at so close to a passenger plane?

“At 17:21’35, with [the Boeing’s] velocity having dropped to 200 kilometers per hour, a new mark detecting an airborne object appears at the spot of the Boeing’s destruction. This new airborne object was continuously detected for the duration of four minutes by the radar stations Ust-Donetsk and Buturinskaya. An air traffic controller requested the characteristics of the new airborne object, but was unable to get any readings on its parameters – most likely due to the fact that the new aircraft was not equipped with a secondary surveillance radar transponder, which is a distinctive feature of military aircraft,” said Makushev.

“Detecting the new aircraft became possible as it started to ascend. Further changes in the airborne object’s coordinates suggest that it was hovering above the Boeing 777’s crash site, monitoring of the situation.

“Ukrainian officials earlier claimed that there were no Ukrainian military aircraft in the area of the crash that day. As you can see, that is not true.”

8. Where did the launcher – from the video circulated by Western media and showing a Buk system being moved allegedly from Ukraine to Russia – come from? As the video was made on the territory controlled by Kiev, where was the launcher being transported?

“I’d like to say that the information we have presented here is based on objective and reliable data from various technical systems – unlike the groundless accusations made against Russia,” said Kartopolov.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0
“For example, media circulated a video supposedly showing a Buk system being moved from Ukraine to Russia. This is clearly a fabrication. This video was made in the town of Krasnoarmeisk, as evidenced by the billboard you see in the background, advertising a car dealership at 34 Dnepropetrovsk Street. Krasnoarmeisk has been controlled by the Ukrainian military since May 11.” </p>


“For example, media circulated a video supposedly showing a Buk system being moved from Ukraine to Russia. This is clearly a fabrication. This video was made in the town of Krasnoarmeisk, as evidenced by the billboard you see in the background, advertising a car dealership at 34 Dnepropetrovsk Street. Krasnoarmeysk has been controlled by the Ukrainian military since May 11.”
[img]http://rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/map.jpg [/img]


9. Where is it right now? Why are some of the missiles missing on the launcher? When was the last time a missile was launched from it?



Screenshot from video posted on Ukraine’s Ministry of Interior account, showing a Buk system supposedly being moved from Ukraine to Russia with two out of three missiles.


10. Why haven’t US officials revealed the evidence supporting claims that the MH17 was shot down by a missile launched by the militia?

“US officials claim they have satellite photographs proving the Malaysian airliner was shot down by a missile launched by the militia. But no one has seen these photographs so far. As far as we know, there was indeed a US satellite flying over southeastern Ukraine on July 17 from 17:06 to 17:21 Moscow time.

“This satellite is part of an experimental system designed to track and monitor the launches of missiles of various ranges. If our US colleagues have imagery from this satellite, they should release it for the international community to examine it in detail. This may be a coincidence, but the US satellite flew over Ukraine at exactly the same time when the Malaysian airliner crashed.”



Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry


This is not the first time Russia brings up questions on the plane crash. No explanations have followed with Kiev insisting they have full evidence of Russia being behind the attack, but so far only releasing tapes.

The USA, putting the blame on the self-defense forces, has yet refused to release any intelligence material. On Monday State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf described Russia’s statements as “propaganda and misinformation” - but when reporters asked her whether Washington would be releasing their intelligence and satellite data, Harf only replied "may be." So far the US has been backing its statements by social media and "common sense."

NairaMinted:

I have admitted already that I was overly zealous in that one post but m "lack of objectivity" and "me jumping into conlusions" or we could address each of the points I raised to see if there is a compelling case.....

I only posted those links to show the other view-points, other 'evidences' put foward by alternative news and throw suspicion on the Ukrainian separatists' and Russians, not to make conclusions. Your style of argument is what is known as 'begging the question'. You turn back and bully your adversaries rather than address the issues directly. Then you bring up how you have been right in the past, ignoring how you've been wrong. I know the style, but will never engage in it so that I don't insult the intelligence of others.
Even Einstein never argued this way.

For avoidance of doubt, I quote my post for you to indicate how I made any conclusions.

"Nairaminted, I will like you to copy and paste these url addresses to check out more news of the shooting of the Malaysian airliner. I always like a fair, objective, independent and balanced view of current affairs. Why would we want to pin the downing of the plane on Ukrainian military when there are evidences of culpability of the Ukrainian rebels as indicated in the above news reports?
Your take is that the plane could not have been downed by a simple missile trajectory launcher. That's true. But mark this report quoted from the first link I posted above on Ukraine separatists' possession of a more complex missile,
"... A US official also reportedly said a single surface-to-air missile, fired from a complex launch system, was suspected to have brought the jet down.
Last month a Russian military news channel reported a Ukrainian launcher had fallen into the hands of separatists.
A similar one was seen by journalists in nearby Snizhne yesterday...""

Anyway, knowing your styles of argumentation, I guess I shouldn't have challenged your point of view in the first instance as it's a worthless excercise arguing when we could wait to see the truth unfold. Just that even if the truth is discovered, I still smell 'conspiracy theories' coming up. Nobody wins an argument against the prodigy of Nairaminted!