If ever there was a farce, the secret rapture idea is one such thing! For starters thee is no scriptural context for it, and secondly it just doesn't add up!

Line up your scriptures and come and defend it, if you can!

You are confused on this issue, no point arguing with you. Go read your bible and find out what the scriptures refers to the day of the Lord when He cometh as a thief in the night! Who are those caught up in the air to meet him?

So much confusion.

Bobby,

I agree.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: [size=16pt]and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[/size]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Many people do not like to face the fact that the RESURRECTION happens first.

The rapture is a small event that most of God's people will never experience.

It is only for those alive at the specific coming of the day of the Lord, at the end of this age, not at the beginning of the tribulation.

Drusilla:

The rapture is a small event that most of God's people will never experience.

Dru,

How did you come to this conclusion? I don't think Scripture treats the rapture as a small event; much less that most of God's people will never experience it. I may be mistaken, but could you clarify?

hi malik

here is what i think, fine we christians believe that jesus would come again, yes he would, let me tell you what most christians think the rapture is,

they think all the christians would suddenly disappear and everybody would be left to wonder wat happend,

no, this is what will happen, everybody would see jesus come from the heavens,

Acts 1:9 - 11
"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."


in a like manner he is gonna come, question how did he go?
he ascended and the disciples saw him,

would we hear anything, yes we will,

1 Thessalonians 4:16
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

with a shout

and everyone would see him come

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

the dead in christ first and then others,

then the ultimate question, when is he coming,

i don't know, but some people know, i don't believe it anyway

http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article87.htm

'Preciate you, bro.

i feel so honoured

u are most welcome

Dru,

How did you come to this conclusion? I don't think Scripture treats the rapture as a small event; much less that most of God's people will never experience it. I may be mistaken, but could you clarify?

The majority of Christians will experience the resurrection not the rapture.

Think about all the dead Christians over the last 2000 years, they outnumber those living in the end days.

Especially when you consider that the bible says the end would be filled with false christians, false preachers, false teachers, christians who only want to hear things that tickle their ears (prosperity gospel).

The rapture is an event that is only for the Christians living at the end, the bible promises that this will be VERY FEW, that is how I came to that the rapture is a small event for very few christians.

Ok, I understand you.

It seems more convincing that, every Christian (those truly saved or born again) will be resurrected, rather than a majority.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - I Cor. 15:51.

However, I'm persuaded that the rapture is for all Christians who are truly saved - past, present and future. This is not a small event for a few; but rather one that is for all believers at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord - I Thes. 4:17.

So, both the resurrection and the rapture are for all true Christians rather than a majority or a few.

It seems more convincing that, every Christian (those truly saved or born again) will be resurrected, rather than a majority.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - I Cor. 15:51.

However, I'm persuaded that the rapture is for all Christians who are truly saved - past, present and future. This is not a small event for a few; but rather one that is for all believers at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord - I Thes. 4:17.

So, both the resurrection and the rapture are for all true Christians rather than a majority or a few.

Are you saying that the rapture is a general term that covers both the rapture of those alive and the resurrection of the dead?

Precisely.

The rapture will include all Christians - both those who have slept in the Lord, and those alive when it occurs. It's a one-time event that will include all, not just a few.

@ Malik

The rapture will include all Christians - both those who have slept in the Lord, and those alive when it occurs. It's a one-time event that will include all, not just a few.

So in other words the rapture but not necessarily the secret rapture. I have no problem with the use of the word rapture, because indeed there is going to be a "caughting up", if there is such a term, lol, of all the saints when Jesus actually comes.

I appreciate what you're saying malik.
_______________________________________

@ Drusilla

Bobby,

I agree.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You're very much on target with the use of this text Dru which tends to become a thorn in the flesh of those advocates of the secret rapture.

I am yet to find one advocate of the secret rapture that really can bring out a sequence of argument to support this false belief. Its pure conjecture and fiction.

Malik,

Since you have changed the traditional definition of the rapture, I can agree with it.

What however will we now call what people usually refer to as the rapture?

Those alive at the coming of the Lord, going up in the air to the Lord?

Bobby,

Look at this sequence of events, some actually believe.


This present world -- unbelievers can be saved.

Rapture: Christians are taken away by Jesus secretly.

The tribulation --  unbelievers get another chance to be saved. By Jews preaching!

Why would an unbeliever even care about the rapture, since they still got a chance to get saved?

It even goes further than that, next they believe that:

Jesus and all the saints come back in Glorified bodies and rule the earth for 1000 years.

Rule over who exactly?

Then they inform you that there will still be unbelievers on the earth!!!

So this would be like the 3rd chance unbelievers have to be saved!!!

All an unbeliever has to do is, survive, this world, then the tribulation and then God's wrath and Armageddon and make it to the earthly Millenial Kingdom!!!

Sinners in Jesus Kingdom? Unbelievers in Jesus Kingdom?

Glorified saints ruling over Mortal Human beings existing on earth for 1000 years?

It is mind boggling. But most are probably like me and just believed it, without knowing that is the nonsense they believe.

Bobbyaf:

So in other words the rapture but not necessarily the secret rapture. I have no problem with the use of the word rapture, because indeed there is going to be a "caughting up", if there is such a term, lol, of all the saints when Jesus actually comes.

I'm not an advocate of a 'secret' rapture and have tried to maintain a consistent position of what I'm persuaded the Scriptures show me.

Drusilla:

Since you have changed the traditional definition of the rapture, I can agree with it.
What however will we now call what people usually refer to as the rapture?
Those alive at the coming of the Lord, going up in the air to the Lord?

I'm not aware I changed anything in the use of the term 'rapture', nor do I know much about what others mean by the term. As stated earlier in my replies, all Christians will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Perhaps I should break this down:

(a) the dead in Christ will rise first

(b) together with those still alive

(a) + (b) will together be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

It's a one-time open event and not a 'secret' rapture.

Malik,

Oh. I agree with your definitions.

The Rapture:

Believers from the dead = Resurrectees --A Majority of Christians will experience this.

Believers from the living = ? -- A very small Minority of Christians will experience this.

Well Dru,

There's no 'majority' or 'minority' about this issue.

All true Christians will be raptured at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Malik,

The resurrection of the dead is spoken of in at least 40 scriptures.
The rapture is spoken of in 2 scriptures.

There most certainly is a Majority and Minority between the two.

Traditional Christian Terminology:

Jesus Second coming:

The dead will be resurrected.
The living will be raptured.

Everything in this regard was deduced by people which eventually became a popular ideology. People interprete things differently which is the case for rapture.

from dictionary.com

2 entries found for rapture.
rap·ture Audio pronunciation of "rapture" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rpchr)
n.

1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural.
3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.

(the 3rd definition could possibly refer to death as many people do believe that once you die you go to heaven)

tr.v. rap·tured, rap·tur·ing, rap·tures

To enrapture.


[Obsolete French, abduction, carrying off, from rapt, carried away, from Old French rat, from Latin raptus. See rapt.]

rapture

n 1: a state of being carried away by overwhelming emotion; "listening to sweet music in a perfect rapture"- Charles Dickens [syn: ecstasy, transport, exaltation, raptus] 2: a state of elated bliss [syn: ecstasy]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University


its not explicitly stated we are just making the assumptions.
FYI - human beings wrote the bible. people interprete things different, also note that it was not originally written in english, some items could be lost in translation no one knows, there are different versions of the bible. human beings do make mistake.

Coming to think about this, In Genesis in regards to the creation of the earth, the person that wrote Genesis was he/she there, was he/she told about the event, how did the person find out.

people were living before jesus was born, what did they believe in, how was their lives?

what are your views in regards to pre-historic times, dinosaur era, carbon dating dating back to millions of years?

No one can definitely answer all these questions, we presume things are what they are because we have being told so.

So what do you think about other religions because each has their own historical believes and the existence of a or multiple supreme beings.

All the opinion we hold about subject matters such as these are from people telling us and trying to convince us it is what it is and could not possibly be anything else. There could be other probable answers but no one knows.

There is ideally no way to tell how to clarify issues like this. why is it only one time in our present day history a female was able to conceive while still being a virgin (virgin mary). That means there was something else to it that we dont know if its by the holy spirit or how ever it was, why are we afraid of cloning humans and we accept the cloning of animals.


IN MY OPINION, SOMETHINGS SHOULD NOT BE ANSWERED BECAUSE THE MORE WE FIND MORE INFORMATION/QUESTION, THE MORE WE QUESTION THE ESSENCE OF OUR EXISTENCE

Ehm, Mr/Miss/Mrs Cactus,

Don't you think your contribution should have been better served on another thread or topic? Obviously, the topic at hand is meant for those who have gone beyond the speculations and 'what ifs' that characterises your post. I don't mean to be rude, but I think if you have nothing to contribute to this topic, just read and "carry go" to numerous other topics that you will be able to contribute to on nairaland. Just a piece of advice.

AH dont forget the witnesses o, they don't believe in being caught up in the air. Paradise is right here on earth, am I wrong?

xie xie, ROTFLOL ANODA

@Drusilla,

I'd rather say that the Scriptures considered so far point to the rapture of all true believers - no true Christian will be left behind at Christ's second coming.

It doesn't make sense that a majority of Christians will experience the resurrection while a minority of Christians would experience the rapture. Did God's Word say so? Not at all. Otherwise, you're suggesting that a minority of Christians will not be resurrected and a majority of Christians will not be raptured - which is not what God's word teaches.

That the resurrection of the dead is spoken of in more verses than of the rapture does not negate the fact of the event that all true Christians will together be raptured. The stated fact is that all true Christians who have slept in the Lord will first be raised; and together with all true Christians living at the second coming of Christ, will be raptured. It is a one-time event that will include all true Christians of all ages and not one will be left behind.

Confusion! Confusion!1 Confusion!!!

So we are now questioning the Bible, to suit our own mind. May God help us all

If I may come in, because I don't like arguing the scriptures.
But let me state categorically here that rapture is real and true.
But if you say the word "rapture" is not ib the scripture yes! I will say.
But that does not mean rapture wll not occur.

There will be rapture!

@ Sir Kay,

What did you read that sounds like anyone questioning the Bible?

@Greatpeter,

It does not appear anyone is doubting the rapture so far; rather, the inputs so far seem to be divided between a 'secret rapture', a 'major or minor event', and an 'open rapture for all Christians'.

It's good to hear all this.

But. . . just wondering. . .

What exactly is knowing whether it's going to be "secret" or "open" supposed to do for me?

@ Dru

Bobby,

Look at this sequence of events, some actually believe.


This present world -- unbelievers can be saved.

Rapture: Christians are taken away by Jesus secretly.

The tribulation --  unbelievers get another chance to be saved. By Jews preaching!

Why would an unbeliever even care about the rapture, since they still got a chance to get saved?

It even goes further than that, next they believe that:

Jesus and all the saints come back in Glorified bodies and rule the earth for 1000 years.

Rule over who exactly?

Then they inform you that there will still be unbelievers on the earth!!!

So this would be like the 3rd chance unbelievers have to be saved!!!

All an unbeliever has to do is, survive, this world, then the tribulation and then God's wrath and Armageddon and make it to the earthly Millenial Kingdom!!!

Sinners in Jesus Kingdom? Unbelievers in Jesus Kingdom?

Glorified saints ruling over Mortal Human beings existing on earth for 1000 years?

It is mind boggling. But most are probably like me and just believed it, without knowing that is the nonsense they believe.

Good points! These are some of the same issues I have always had with the notion of the secret rapture notion and what seems to follow.

While I believe that christians will be raptured in the sense that they will be caught up to meet Christ in the air, I don't believe, and justifiably so, that:

1. unbelievers will be left behind for a second chance because this is unjust on the part of God and will make Him look inconsistent with His own character. If God will give unbelievers a second chance in this age, then He will have to resurrect the ante-deluvians and give them a second chance too. People back then had one chance to listen to Noah's message and either accept or reject. Jesus said as recorded in Matthew that as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of man.

2. during the 1000 years life will be here on earth because both OT and NT scriptural references point to a devastated earth that would be as it was before formed it. Revelation 20 makes it clear that Satan would be bound for 1000 years, then how is it that people would be able to make a fair choice to accept God over the beast, if there is no real temptation, assuming that these people are going to be here? Is it fair to expect students to pass an exam if they weren't prepared and tested for it prior to the exam?  ,

3. there will be a 7 year-tribulation that begins the 1000 years because the period allotted to this tribulation is not consistent with bible prophecy as recorded in Daniel 9. You cannot attribute to christians what was meant for the Jews . The advocates of the tribulation cannot find a NT text to support their notion, so thay had to conviniently find a prophecy for it in Daniel 9. That 7 year period although mathematically correct has been wrongly placed for the wrong time. Its already been fulfilled and points to the period between AD27 to Ad34 the middle of which being AD31 where Christ the Messiah was cut off by death. It was this prophetic week in which the New Covenant was ratified with the blood of Christ beginnig with Christ's ministry and ending with the death of Stephen in AD34. It is this same week that they have literally stolen and mis-applied to the future.

To show you how deceptive these people are they have refused to comment on the remaining part of daniel 9 which predicted the AD70 destruction of the Jerusalem temple, to which Jesus referred in Matthew 24. Let me give you a portion of what the prophet said:

Daniel 9:25-27

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

7 weeks to rebuild Jerusalem + 62 weeks will lead up to the Messiah ie Christ. This period ended in AD27 where the meaning of Messiah was manifested through Jesus' annointing at John's baptism. The word Messiah as you know Dru means the annointed one.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The word "after" in the expression "after 62 weeks" , would also include the 7 weeks used up to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. Some people get confused at this point in the prophecy. In actual fact the period ended at the death of Christ, which would lead us to the middle of the last week being 7 literal years.

7 years + 62 weeks = 69 weeks at which point Christ was baptised + the remaining 1 week = 70 weeks

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The last week = 7 years , the Messiah was cut off in the middle of it leading up to AD31, and the remianing of that 7 years would end at AD34. Between AD27 and AD34 Christ as well as His appointed disciples confirmed the NEW COVENANT. The disciples after Christ died in AD31 and ascended to heaven, continued the confirmation when they were empowered by the Holy Spirit, where they confined their message to the Jewish people until the end of the Jewish dispensation being AD34. After AD34 Paul was commissioned to start preaching to the gentiles who would later be grafted into the NT church comprising both jews and gentiles.

So now you know where they got this 7 year period from. Its been mis-applied.

What happens if you are in an aeroplane when "the rapture" occurs and the two pilots are Christians?

Meanwhile the passage in 1 Thesalonians that is used to argue that there is a "rapture" is simply misinterpreted. Really, the focus is the second coming of Christ and the resurrection --- there is no "rapture" in the way that it is taught and believed in many churches.

are we still arguin about this, ?

fine we all know there is no such thing as secret rapture, so wats all the argument about?

wat i see so far is show of wits of the knowledge of the scriptures, u guys are being boastful,

1 Thessalonians: 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I think the misunderstanding comes in when we muddle up several events together.  This scripture clearly talks about the rapture, and if you notice Jesus is not even going to step on the earth at this coming.  He is going to be in the air where the dead in christ will rise forst to meet Him, then the rest of the Christians who are alive will join them up there. 

His coming where the whole world shall see Him as mentioned in the Book of Acts is different from the one here in Thessalonians.  If we can distinguish between both events, then we will begin to dispel some of the confusion that seems prevalent.