its as simple as said above, so wat are we still arguin about, ?

@ Tayod

1 Thessalonians: 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I think the misunderstanding comes in when we muddle up several events together. This scripture clearly talks about the rapture, and if you notice Jesus is not even going to step on the earth at this coming. He is going to be in the air where the dead in christ will rise forst to meet Him, then the rest of the Christians who are alive will join them up there.

If this is the case then how comes the advocates of the secret rapture teach that only the christians will know when Jesus comes? They argue that the other people would come to realize that all the christians simply vanished. You and I know that the above passage doesn't even come close to saying that. In fact the passage said that Jesus' return will be audible. However if we read Matthew 24:38-39 we will notice some degree of commonality with 1 Thes. 4:15-17

Matthew 24:30,31.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Take notice of what the text is saying:

1. A sign in heaven shall proceed the coming of Jesus, in other words before He and His angels burst that eastern sky, the cosmos will give a sign.

2. The tribes(all races of people) of the earth will mourn, since they weren't ready for His coming. They shall also see Him coming with power and great glory.

3. And as Thes 4: already said, coupled with what this is now saying, there will be trumpet sounds from the angels who will gather up the elect including the resurrected saints.

In all of this there is nothing that comes close to what is being taught by the advocates of the so-called secret rapture.

His coming where the whole world shall see Him as mentioned in the Book of Acts is different from the one here in Thessalonians. If we can distinguish between both events, then we will begin to dispel some of the confusion that seems prevalent.

No where in the Pauline writngs will you find two separate reports of Jesus' coming. The OT refers to it as the day of the Lord, while the NT refers to it as the parousia, or simply, coming. listen to Paul writing to the same troubled christians at Thessallonica:

2 Thes. 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.

Notice the commonality again in all the passages? Jesus comes with His angels and His coming is awesome and powerful. The wicked will be smitten by His glory and brightness. This corresponds with his first letter in 1 Thes 4 where Paul uses this phrase:

", Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds"

In other words when Jesus comes the only ones who will remain alive will be the ones who were not smitten by the brightness of Christ's glory and power, that is the living saints. No wicked person will remain. Their bodies will lay on the earth like dung according to Jeremiah with no one to mourne or bury them. The earth itself will be broken up and all the cities will fall.

Take it from me Tayod this notion about a secret rapture is coming straight from the pit of hell, and is designed by Satan to decieve people into tinking that if they miss the train this time round they can catch the next one.

Amen, brotha, AMEN,

now shall we close this thread pleaseeeeee!

Ol'boy, leave the thread open for more inputs from those who might have one or two things more to say. I noticed you're in a hurry to call for the closing of a thread - wetin U dey fear sef? "Deep calleth unto deep" and "iron sharpeneth iron" - let the discussion continue.

BOBBYAF my guy, na wa for you o. e be like say u be idol worshipper

Hahhahahahaha, , you lost me there Samson!

Hello Bobby,
think the little problem you have about the subject of the rapture is that you probably do not understand it, may be because the word " RAPTURE" cannot be found in the Bible. But do you equally know that the word "BIBLE" cannot be found in the Bible, nor the word "TRINITY"? And yet these do not change these facts. Allow me to ask you this question: Are you born again? This is because trying to understand spiritual things with the carnal mind will lead you into further confussion. In addition, it requires real humility of heart to learn what you don't know. I will like to counsel you to humble yourself and pray to God to teach that you do not know. God bless you.
Note: the Scriptues is an open Book to the open minded.[/b]

@ eurimoor

Ok my friend I have decided to take a different approach since my style of presentation seems to have people, especially on this board reacting in different ways.

Ok what I would like for you to do for me is to give in simple language what exactly is the secret rapture and all the relevant texts to go with it.

What I will do is simply ask about what confuses me, instead of simply just saying "no sir that can't be" so that you will provide some answers to solve that problem. Fair enough?

Shalom!

It is obvious there is a lot of confusion about several subjects here.

Each contributor seem to have made his best attempts.But sincerely,it has all been a
"scratching of the surface"

The confusion begins with:
1).An improper understanding of the Lord's resurrection,
2).A vague understanding of the manner of the resurrection of the saints.
3).Lack of understanding of the OBJECT and MANNER of our Lord's return,

And leads on to many more complex questions.The beautiful thing about this is that the Bible has answers to all of them.

People seem to be believe that our Lord's second advent is the end of God's Plan for humanity.Unfortunately,it is only the beginning !

I have to go to bed now, hopefully,tomorrow,I shall make more elaborate comments.

God bless you all,

@dignity,

In addition to what you have said, there seems to be a lack of understanding that jesus' second coming is actually in stages. When He comes to take the saints away is different from when He comes to Judge and Rule i.e. The Day of the Lord.

Interesting.

Well @dignity, still waiting for details.

SHALOM!

Bobbyaf:
If ever there was a farce, the secret rapture idea is one such thing! For starters thee is no scriptural context for it, and secondly it just doesn't add up!

Line up your scriptures and come and defend it, if you can!

THE SECRET RAPTURE Doctrine is not only Scriptural- discounting PAUL'S spurious babblings- but it is ridiculously understated.

WORSHIPPERS OF GOD are SUPPOSED to "Rapture" to Heaven as many as THREE times yearly.