Ladex,

It's good that you love windows, I pray to stay with it - if you are a game freak, please visit http://www.apple.com/games/ and see what apple can offer for game lovers. I use an iBook G4 laptop for development and penetration testing, I use it mainly for my my php and python development, I also run my itunes music library and also to obtain free podcasts on security and other important subjects. I also have a mac-mini that runs my email, database, mp3 and streaming server, I use it for alot of testing. My iBook G4 has a 1ghz power pc processor and 512 RAM.

I have one centos unix machine and a windows 2003 server that I use for penetration testing as well and also to run some aspx web apps I build. With my MAC, I don't have to buy any other software for malware, spam or viruses etc etc. I have time to concentrate on what I like doing - development and internet security; so spend all the money on tools that you have to renew every year just to make sure your Windows computer works - it's up to you. You should take a look at what microsoft intends to do with vista - pretty soon your anti-virus softwares and other security softwares wouldn't be able to run because windows can't allow them modify it's kernel.

dakmanzero,

I will try my best to answer all your questions about MAC

1) they are not gamers (Macs are absolute and total rubbish when it comes to games) - I wouldn't say much, please visit http://www.apple.com/games/, if you like - you can count the number of games you can run on a MAC. Do a simple google search for "MAC games" and go look them up.

2) they are not power users (They prefer software that 'just works' and hate flexibility and configurability) - On the contrary, you can hack a MAC and play with your core kernel anyway you like. The are 1001 hacks for MACs that will astound you but since you don't use a MAC, you will have little knowledge about what I am talking about. With it's BSD kernel you have the command line power to install programs with great flexibility, something windows wouldn't allow you do, all you do in windows is click, next>> next>> next>> finish. You have no clue what's going on behind the scenes. I tested several hacks on a windows 2000 machine and I had to re-install it several times because almighty windows said I couldn't mess with it's registry, rubbish!

3) they hate computer hardware (They like the way apple hides the true nature of the machine behind a shiny, glossy exterior and tries to pretend that things like RAM and internal bus standards/driver revisions do not exist) - Dude, apple is a classical example of a company that makes software work as it should. If windows was a car, then it's tires would be made by one manufacturer, it's doors from another, it's headlambs yet from another, it's gears from another one and it's engine by another one. So you would have a car that does so many things yet it is not good enough in a specialized area. We all know that you can either trade functionality over security or vice-versa. MACs are made from one manufacturer with everything thought out. That is why you have companies like Dell, HP, Toshiba, Actel and numerous others trying to bring sanity to the windows computing environment.

4) they don't care about sharing information (an open document standard is an oxymoron when 99.9999% of the people on the face of the earth have access to a different format) - Sharing? what are you talking about man, do you know all microsoft has to do is put one code in your windows update and all WORD, EXCEL and other documents on all windows system world-wide will never work on other platforms? Why has microsoft refused to allow people view it's source codes, don't talk about sharing man. Apple support open standards and has always done so, apple support the SMB, NFS and other opensource sharing standards.

5) they are GOOD PEOPLE who do not pirate software - Thank you for admitting that, it takes courage to do that. We don't have to bend standards to please others, if we all did the right thing, the world would be a better place.

6) they believe in security by obscurity (macs are only considered secure because they are not being targeted by hackers and virus writers. At defcon early this month hackers showed how to own a macbook via wireless via a driver bug! DRIVERS!!!!!!) - Security by obscurity is an old trick in the book however it is not the reason why MACs are considered safer than their windows counterparts - they reason is simple, better programming standards from the Apple and open source community and integrating MAC kernel with open source standards. Aside that, there is no computer that is 100% secure. We ran a MAC X Server for 4 years serving an mobile company SMS website with no extra configuration whatsoever - the only thing we did was updates. Try and windows server like that and give me your feedback. MAC also has a BSD like kernel, so you have the power of a unix system at your disposal, and the slickest interface you will ever want at your disposal. About using a driver to get administrative priviledges on a MAC, please send me the link and the exploit so that I can check it out. I use the metasploit framework for penetration testing and I check the securityfocus.com website for all latest exploits on all systems. So, please provide the resource you are talking about. I will tell you this much, 95% of exploits are engineered and geared towards windows systems. Ask yourself why?

7) the most important one- THEY ARE RICH. yes, mac users are rich. you have to be rich to justify a 100% price increase for an inferior (performance-wise) product for the benefit of usability, which is a luxury - You statement holds no water - how can a MAC be inferior performance wise when it has better memory management than Windows? On the contrary, MACS are cheaper when you consider the hidden and overhead cost of owning a windows system. Assuming you purchase a PC system and you buy a legal version of Windows XP, a legal version of Office, a legal version of norton antivrus plus all the malware and spyware tools you will renew every other year - which is more expensive?


I can't say anymore, let us research more and more and find out how microsoft is loosing it's hold on the corporate and home user computing environment.

I don't have to buy any other software for malware, spam or viruses etc etc.

I have never bought any software for malware, spam or virus before. There are a lot of free softwares that does a great job doing just that, and a lot of people also find ways of using the latest and pricey softwares free (i don't know how they do it O! )

ladex,

Any how you look at it - you either trade security over functionality or vice versa but windows doesn't give you that flexibility because windows don't give you that priviledge.

There are millions of apps written for windows compared to apple because windows is the most popular OS inthe world and I told you why that is so. However, comparing both systems in terms of performance, security, integrety, realiability and robustness - a MAC will beat a windows system anyday.

hey alexis! I'm gonna be nice to you because if you use a mac you *must* be RICH and I wanna be friends with rich people!

Seriously, though, let me answer your rebuttals just to clarify things a bit.

1) they are not gamers (Macs are absolute and total rubbish when it comes to games) - I wouldn't say much, please visit http://www.apple.com/games/, if you like - you can count the number of games you can run on a MAC. Do a simple google search for "MAC games" and go look them up.

Dude. Do not even bother to push this argument at all. The only way you would consider Mac 'support' on games anything more than nonexistent is if you don't play games in the first place. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease do not even try to push this argument further!!!!!!! I understand that you arent a gamer! most people have more serious/important things to do and I respect that! But NO gamer will EVER claim that mac game support is anything more than ridiculous and laughable. Apple treated game developers like dirt when they introduced the graphical mac os, unlike microsoft that went to great lengths to keep them happy, and now they are reaping the rewards.

2) they are not power users (They prefer software that 'just works' and hate flexibility and configurability) - On the contrary, you can hack a MAC and play with your core kernel anyway you like.

No, you can't.

The are 1001 hacks for MACs that will astound you but since you don't use a MAC, you will have little knowledge about what I am talking about. With it's BSD kernel you have the command line power to install programs with great flexibility, something windows wouldn't allow you do, all you do in windows is click, next>> next>> next>> finish. You have no clue what's going on behind the scenes. I tested several hacks on a windows 2000 machine and I had to re-install it several times because almighty windows said I couldn't mess with it's registry, rubbish!

[/quote]

I accept this correction- my bad. I was thinking about pre-OSX macs. Nonetheless it remains a major part of the mac philosophy- The current crop of PC-hybrid macs *should* mitigate this completely, but they remain grossly overpriced for no sensible reason whatsoever! I say copy the specs of the macbook/i-mac and build a REAL pc at the RIGHT price!

[quote]3) they hate computer hardware (They like the way apple hides the true nature of the machine behind a shiny, glossy exterior and tries to pretend that things like RAM and internal bus standards/driver revisions do not exist) - Dude, apple is a classical example of a company that makes software work as it should. If windows was a car, then it's tires would be made by one manufacturer, it's doors from another, it's headlambs yet from another, it's gears from another one and it's engine by another one. So you would have a car that does so many things yet it is not good enough in a specialized area. We all know that you can either trade functionality over security or vice-versa. MACs are made from one manufacturer with everything thought out. That is why you have companies like Dell, HP, Toshiba, Actel and numerous others trying to bring sanity to the windows computing environment.

Dude. That is how cars are built. Abi u don see Toyota tire? or Nissan? or maybe you think it is berger boys that put the mitsubishi air filter in ya '93 Mazda? There are these things called INDUSTRY STANDARDS that ensure that these things work right. And that they can be replaced and mixed/matched to the users' needs. However Apple has succesfully pulled the wool over your eyes to the extent that you dont even realise that YOUR MACS ARE ALSO BUILT LIKE THIS!!!!!!!! Jeeeesh. One manufacturer? gimme a break. Thank your stars that apple is not dominant or we'd still be paying $3000 for pentium 400 class processors!!!!

4- remember what I said about oxymorons? we techies can talk blablabla all we want about openDML and openDOC or whatever but in the end the dude next door wants his excel worksheet with its macros and formatting intact. I didnt say apple hates info sharing, the apple USERS do! cos if they didn, they'd use what everyone else was using!!!!!

5- Yep, thats true! And I applaud all good Godfearing Mac users (No sarcasm)

6- I was being a dick. Ignore the earlier comment. However, do not fool yourself into believing that Apple has better programming standards than Windows. The BSD kernel is opensource, and it was wise to build on that but beware- userland is where the evil lurks, and apple's code is there too. I daresay that if macs get more marketshare, we will finally see the myth of 'apple security' exposed. The psss-poor performance and crash-happinmess of most apple software on windows makies me look with skepticism upon any claim of aple coding superiority. closed source is closed source and from a security standpoint closedd source is rubbish. Hackers could be raping your machines right now and you wouldnt even know, cos u dont even have any security software on your machines!

7- don't kid yourself, dude. Macs are overpriced. Performance = bare metal performance, not fancy memory management. If I want memory management on my PC I'll load up CentOS and slap a 64-bit kernel in there. emmmanagement or not, an equivalently priced windows machine will blow away the equivalent mac on raw number crunching power alone. And claiming that 'hidden costs' make windows more expensive than macs is just spin doctoring on the scale of the silly microsoft 'TCO' arguments against linux. Some things are just plain obvious!



Dude! Apples are the designer goods of the computer world. You are paying for brand loyalty, nothing more!

darkmanzero,

1. Games on Apple - Dude, I never said apple has more games than Windows, all I said is that Apple has it's own share of games, I have played a few, Civilization, Command $ Conquer and they are good to me. I don't see any difference btw apple games and windows games except of course that you can run more games on windows.

2. MAC being flexible - Get any Unix BSD software and try and install it on MAC, esp the darwin ported packages and see whether you can't play with your kernel or not.

3. You are very welcome

4. Anyway you look at it, Apple has done a good job in making a computer that makes you do what you are good at. I didn't say apple should be the sole manufacturer, if that was the case then there will be no competition - what I am saying is that, apple did it's home work, thus it has a better platform.

5. we should all do the right thing.

6. Well, you have a point - apple may not command a large market share and as a result people may not exploit MAC machines, however - good programming still plays a major role here. There are several viruses and exploits that have been written for MACs but you will have to download these codes as an administrator and run the executable files.

7. Listen, I am not rich - I am a student that works and pay my fees. I got my iBook G4 for $999 and I used my friends credit in the US to buy it. He paid less that $25 monthly and was given the computer and he sent it to me. Don't compare a MAC and a windows on performance and memory management. With MAC you can tell a process to use only a certain amount of memory and nothing more, try that with a Windows.

I use Centos as well, and it's great. I am not a loyal blind fan of MAC. Even now, i still use asp because of it's good session management. All I am saying is that it depends on the business case you intend to use the systems for, if you want to sleep well at night - use a MAC

1. Glad you implicitly agree that game support on Apple is pants.

2. I accepted your point already on mac hacking. Opensource was the way to go, but you are still (artificially) limited by Apple's idiotic refusal to conform to open BIOS standards. The PC remains superior simply because I can install Linux, a far superior OS, whenever I choose and with no fancy acrobatics.

3. This was for point 2, I presume! You ignored the comment on open doc formats vs the formats that the wole world uses (closed and broken as they may be)

4. No it does not have a better platform. It has the same platform at an inexplicable higher price and with crippled functionality married to standards noncompliance.

5. :-)

6. Building on BSD alone ensures that by default OSX is more robust than windows. Slapping closed proprietary junk in userland ensures that most of the advantages of that are slung out the window (har de har har.). The PC is more secure. Put OpenBSD on there and understand why the truly security conscious will ignore the mac and go for a PC

7. Dude. You have 1000 dollars to spend on komputa and you claim you are not rich. The fact that 1000 DOLLARS is 'poor struggling student money' to you proves my point!!!!! If i had 1000 dollars i wouldnt be buying a crummy slow G4 based machine, I would build me a CORE 2 DUO MEGA SYSTEM!!!!!!

finally any memory mgt power the mac has is mitigated by the fact that at the sameprice, windows will be running on by far mor powerful hardware. Can't beat the hardware, dude. Manage your 64 megs well, we got a gig!



PS: Ignore my general pigheadedness and smug git-tery. I am a harrased office worker who needs to have fun hence the tone of my post. Look beyond it to the message beneath and understand the points I make about the smoke and mirror circus that is apple!

darkmanzero,

Good points you made and like I said, it is the business case that determines what OS and hardware you will run. I feel in love with MAC because you have a BSD kernel (Open source) and OS X (MAC OS). I am an opensource fan and use it more than anything and that is why I prefer it over Windows.

Your point about hardware holds water, the higher the specs, the better the machine will perform, that been said, Windows doesn't manage memory well - I have tested this several times, so in essence, a machine running Windows with better specs might not out perform a Unix or MAC machine.

I noticed that you then to drift to Unix from your last post, my argument was that a MAC is more reliable, stable and robust than a Windows System (Windows). I used FreeBSD, Centos, Fedora, BackTrack, knoppix etc and I love them especially Centos, they can match and even outdo a MAC anyday depends on the services they are offering.

About been rich - like I said, I didn't pay $1,000 cash at a go, I paid it over a long period of 10-16 months because my friend in the US assisted me. If we had this flexible system in Nigeria, alot of people will be able to afford apple machines. I will admit that you can get a PC for $200 or less and upgrade etc which meets alot of people approval but Apple doesn't work that way.

On my supposed drift to unix- I would never join a windows vs mac debate because that debate is a moot point- Mac OS is a superior OS, even though I will use windows because it is more value for money.

This is a MAC vs PC debate spawned from a topic- why do people like Apple *computers*.

My initial post is a summary of my thoughts on the whole 'why do people have such love for an obviously inferior and more expensive platform'

A summary of that summary is- They are rich people who dont want to know how their computers work.

They are MBA management types: 'I dont care how you do it, just do it!!!!!!!!'

I am not a management guy and I am not rich - I am a developer that love my MAC because it works and allows me do my job. My initial take on this thread was that we were comparing MAC with Windows and which was better.

Anyhow - I respect your comments and they are well noted.

Cheers

what do u guys mean be kernal, opensource, closedsource, unix, centos and bsd or bios? please someone should answer me or give me a link where i can learn. thanks.

just another question, dat MAC now has the new intel chip wont make sense if we cant run most window programs on a MAC OS unless we install a MS OS and run the programs. so my question to those MAC lovers, can someone run a windows or any windows program on a MAC OS with the new intel chip that supports a windows on a MAC? thanks.

Dondele,

With the new intel chips on MAC - you can install both Windows OS and MAC OS together, something tha wasn't possible before. So, you can still run your traditional applications on your windows OS on an apple. Apple also runs some of windows apps like Office, messenger, yahoo IM etc. I hope I have answered your questions.

so in other words, i can run any windows apps on the new MAC OS with the new intel chip right?


you didnt answer the other question above about the kernal and centos and opensource and closesource.

dondele:

so in other words, i can run any windows apps on the new MAC OS with the new intel chip right?


you didnt answer the other question above about the kernal and centos and opensource and closesource.

No you can't run any windows app but u can install windows and run ur apps on the installed windows on the new apple laptops with intel chips

dondele,

I am sorry I didn't answer your question on kernel, opensource, closed source, bsd etc. Let me explain to you

1. Open Source - Open source describes practices in production and development that promote access to the end product's sources, this means that you have the original (source code) access to the programs that you install and thus can modify, append, debug, enhance if you know what you are doing. Most open source programs or projects are free, free as in free to download it and install it and modify it etc. An example of an opensource program is open office - you can download this free compared to paying hundreds of $$ to microsoft for it's office suite.

2. Close source - The opposite of open source, the source codes are not publicy accessible i.e microsoft products

3. Kernel - The kernel is a program that constitutes the central core of a computer operating system. It has complete control over everything that occurs in the system. You can say it's the heart and brain of the computer.

4. Unix - A multiuser, multitasking operating system that is widely used as the master control program in workstations and servers.

A myriad of commercial applications run on Unix servers, and many Web sites run under Unix. Over the years, there have been many different versions of the OS, and, except for the PC world, where Windows dominates, almost every hardware vendor offers Unix as its primary or secondary operating system. Sun has been singularly instrumental in commercializing Unix with its Solaris OS (formerly SunOS). HP, IBM, SCO and Digital (before it merged with Compaq) have also been major Unix promoters.

Unix is written in C. Both Unix and C were developed by AT&T and freely distributed to government and academic institutions, causing it to be ported to a wider variety of machine families than any other operating system. As a result, Unix became synonymous with "open systems."

5. Centos, FreeBSD - These are free versions of Unix Operating Systems you can download for your personal use.

I hope I have answered your questions

thanks y'all for answering my questions and satisfying my curiousity.

just one more thing, which operating system out there will you say is d best. best for everything any man on earth will wann@ do with a computer. is it a MAC or windows or linux or unix or solaries? i dont want no interface stuff cuzz i like my graphics d way it is. dont need no high definition graphics and ish. so please tell me.

telling you one is better over the other will be a myopic judgement, it all depends on what you want to do. Do you want something secure, do you want a firewall, do you want to use it for graphix, games, what do you want to use it for?

Gosh!
I don't understand.
I've never used it, but the UI is unfriendly (that's what I think).
In Nigeria, Windows is more popular than anything Apple, and even if I find an Apple computer that understands Yoruba i.e. i only have to speak Yoruba to it and it does everything a mouse and keyboard can do, I wouldn't take it.

Tayo

ajiboyet,

I have used windows for years I still do and I use 2 MACs and I will tell you this much, it is far simplier and user friendly to use a MAC than Windows.

a lil games, math, some photoshop and ish, music and stuff. calculus, physics. not much really.

Hey dondele

There isn't any 'best' OS

But the decision on which OS to get can be summarised thus:


Mac OS:

The easiest, and nicest to look at. More stable than windows, too and not at all complex or confusing. HOWEVER, support for it is poor (not many programs) and you need expensive hardware to run it (Apple Macintosh)



Linux:

Unlike Mac OS, it runs on cheap affordable hardware (PC from vendoe of your choice), and is cheap itself (free). It is less friendly than windows and Mac OS, meaning that it will be confusing and difficult to use at first, but once learned is more powerful than both. Support for it is both better and worse than Mac OS- You can probably find any program you need, but whether you have the expertise to actually get it to work is another thing.

All in all, I would personally consider linux the 'best' OS, but only from the standpoint of one who doesnt care about the technical problems. I can NOT recommend it to someone who doesnt want to go through with that.


Windows:

By all accounts this should be the worst OS: viruses, poor security, instability, and more expensive than linux (cheaper than Mac).

However it has by far the best support. There is NOTHING you want to do with a computer that you cannot do in windows. NOTHING. and EVERYBODY in the world uses it. Plus it works on cheap hardware (PC) and supports practically ANYTHING you want to plug into the system.


solaris, BSD etc:

Support for these is niche at best- none of them can be considered general-purpose OS's. if you want to use any of these, you probably already know what you want it for.



personally- I use windows. Why? Cos at work, I work, and at home, I play. Windows has by far the best support for games and multimedia and all manner of 'unserious' things one can do with a computer. Macs are rubbish from a gaming standpoint (though passable with multimedia, viewing NOT creation, mind you, ) and Linux is even worse game-wise, though great for viewing ultimedia (but stupid crap hardware support. ATI RADEON DRIVERS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!)

@dark man zero
thanks man. u answered my questions well.

i think i will order the new Dell Pc with the new intel chip. that shud do the trick.


one more thing


what do u think of the new vista?

Its not out yet so if I gave an opinion I'd be talking out my ar$e.

(And no, I don't count the beta as a viable representation of the finished product.)

Hello house, Pls I need a Mac OS X Leopard disc. I have tried everywhere I know to purchase a copy but none of them have it. I cant use a lot of features on my macbook laptop running on Win XP e.g. Lan, Wireless, Bluetooth, Trackpad and camera.