Continued:

Fifth, its perspicuity…sola Scriptura means that the Word of God is clear, it is understandable, it is a lucid revelation. Matthew 22 verse 31, Jesus said to the Pharisees, “But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read?” Do you have two eyeballs? Do you have two brain cells that are connected between your ears? Can you not process the information, the clear revelation in the Word of God? In Matthew 19 and verse 4, Jesus answered and said, “Have you not read who created them from the beginning male and female?” No, God has so clearly spoken in His Word that no man can render the excuse, “Well I did not understand what God was saying. God has not stuttered in His Word. God has spoken with precision and with accuracy and it is an understandable message. We need the illumination of the Holy Spirit…yes. But any short-coming and understanding the Bible is not on the part of the Bible, it is a part…on the part of man. But what God has said, He has said with abundant clarity in His Word. And what a difference that was with Rome. Rome said the man in the pew, the woman in the pew cannot understand the Bible. That is why we will not translate it into your language. That is why the preaching will be in Latin. That is why we will tell you what to believe because you are incapable of understanding the Bible.

And the Puritans and the Reformers said no. The plowman in the field will know more of the Bible than the Pope in Rome, that the Word of God is marked by perspicuity, it is crystal-clear in those matters dealing with salvation and godly living.

Sixth, sola Scriptura implies the sufficiency of Scripture, that the Word of God is able to accomplish all of God’s purposes here upon the earth as the Word of God is brought to bear upon the issues in the men and individuals of this world. Isaiah 55 verse 11, God says, “My Word which goes forth from my mouth, it will not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, without succeeding in the manner for which I sent it. God’s redemptive purposes will be carried out in this world by the Word of God which is sufficient to do all that God desires to do in this world.”

The Word of God is powerful to convict. It is powerful to convert. It is powerful to conform. It is powerful to console. It is powerful to correct. The Word of God is powerful, it is more powerful than any other object that you and I will ever hold in our hand. Peter says, “For you have been born again, not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is through the living and abiding Word of God.” There is so much life in this book that when this book is planted within the soil of human hearts, having been prepared by the Holy Spirit of God, when God by His sovereign grace causes that seed to germinate, it brings forth eternal life. And it is this book alone that sanctifies and conforms believers into the very image of Jesus Christ.

Seventh, sola scriptura implies the immutability of Scripture. That it will never change. It is forever the same. Psalm 119 verse 89, “Forever, O Lord, Your Word is settled in heaven.” Psalm 119 verse 160, “Every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.” Listen, right will always be right. Wrong will always be wrong. The way of salvation will forever be the way of salvation. God’s revelation is unchanging because God Himself is immutable and unchanging. Sola Scripture implies also the invincibility of Scripture, that it is a superior weapon in the hand of the man or the woman of God, as it is wielded and used. God says in Jeremiah 23:29, “Is not My Word like a fire? Declares the Lord. And like a hammer which shatters a rock.” Hebrews 4 verse 12 says, “For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword.” What a powerfully penetrating instrument is the Word of the living God. It is an invincible weapon.

And finally, sola scriptura implies the finality of Scripture, that there is no new revelation to be given to man after the close of the canon of Scripture, that we have the faith once and for all delivered to the saints, Job…or Jude 3. Revelation 22:18, “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book.” All of these truths are inherent within this statement of sola scriptura. And why this will be so very important for this conference and for our understanding of the Word of God, is this last element of the exclusive finality of divine revelation in the written Word of God. God has brought the consummation of His message to us in special redeeming sanctifying revelation in the truth of His written Word.

As the Puritans convened in 1643, called by the English Parliament, they were charged to write what would become the doctrinal statement that would govern the land and in 1646 they completed their draft and their ratification of the Westminster Confession of Faith. There were 121 scholars and theologians, pastors and teachers, along with another 30 key laymen. They met in over eleven hundred sessions and as they wrote the Westminster Confession of Faith, the shorter and the longer catechism, they began their Westminster Confession of Faith with chapter 1. Chapter 1 is entitled “Of the Holy Scriptures, and their doctrinal statement written those many years ago would be even more finally tuned and advanced than what had been written earlier a hundred years earlier by the Reformers. As new challenges were being brought to bear upon the church at that time, they needed to be more explicit, they needed to be more definitive in what they believed about the Scripture. And it is a doctrinal statement in this first chapter that has stood the test of time and has become a restatement of what the Bible says concerning itself.

Now, I want to walk us through a few of these statements so that you will see how…how committed the Puritans were to sola scriptura. And there will be some…some statements, some sentences out of it that put over my head on the screen. And I have gone through these and paired them down and thinned them out so that they are understandable and easy to read, as they were originally written and as they stand to this day. There is a greater breadth about these sentences and these paragraphs but to aid our communication, I want you to see and to understand what the greatest Puritan minds brought together in a statement of sola scriptura and what I want you to note is in chapter 1, section 1, they began with a statement on the cessation of any new revelation and they were determined to state that they will believe only the Bible. So please note, in the first section of chapter 1, they saw it necessary for the preserving and propagating the truth that would make the Holy Scripture to be most necessary. In other words, it has to be written down so that the message is preserved and so that the message can be propagated far and wide with a uniformity of statement God had the Bible recorded and put into writing. It goes on to say at the end of this first section, those former ways of God’s revealing His will unto His people being…note the last two words…now ceased.” This is front-loaded at the very outset of the Westminster Confession of Faith. There is no room for any wiggle room whatsoever, these Puritan Divines who gathered perhaps the greatest generation of believers who have gathered in the United Kingdom, they began with this cessationist statement. In section two, they speak of the inspiration and the authority of Scripture. And number 2, “All holy scriptures which are given by inspiration of God.” Not God and man, not inspiration by man, but inspiration of God. It would be 100 percent the pure, unadulterated, unvarnished truth of the mind and the will of God revealed to man.

And then it concludes to be the rule of faith and life. Please note that word “rule.” That it has the authority over our lives to rule us, to govern us, to dictate to us which we gladly would submit to. In the third section, they were careful to state that the Apocrypha are not included in the canon of Scripture. The book’s commonly called Apocrypha are no part of the canon of Scripture, they confined this divine inspiration, they recognized that it was…that it is contained within the 66 books of the Bible, 39 in the Old, 27 in the New.

The fourth section reads, “The authority of the Holy Scripture ought to be believed and obeyed.” Again it is a statement of the authority of the word of God. And its ruling power over the lives of men and women. In the sixth section we read of its sufficiency. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary. Did you hear that? All things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life is in Scripture. There’s no need to look anywhere else. There is no need for anything else to be added. There is no need for any appendixes to be supplementing the divine revelation in the written Word of God. They affirm the scriptures that I have already read to you that all things necessary for salvation and sanctification for the glory of God is found in our Bible. This is a very important point. And at the end of this presentation, John Owen will be the one who will step in to answer the threat of the Quakers and he will build his case upon the perfection and the sufficiency of the Word of God when he will say, “Away with your dreams and visions, away with your new revelations, we have the all-sufficient written Word of God.

In this sixth section, also, is another cessationist statement. It says nothing…you understand what nothing means…nothing at any time…you understand what any time means…is to be added whether by new revelations of the Spirit or traditions of men, do not be bringing your thus says the Lord into this house if it’s not found in chapter and verse. And I know that’s a reflection of your own heart and your commitment to the written Word of God. Number 7 and 9 deal with the perspicuity of Scripture, how abundantly clear this book is. Note number 7, “Those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded and opened in some sense of Scripture or other.” Everything that you need to know to be saved is clearly stated in the Bible. Everything you need to know to follow the will of God is clearly stated in this book. Everything that you need to know to live in such a way to bring honor and glory to God is spelled out with crystal-clear clarity in this book. Listen, this book is not hard to understand, it’s just hard to swallow. What part of by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, how does that get over your head? Why even a child can come to faith in Jesus Christ.

Now notice what they go on to say in this same section in 7, that not only the learned but the unlearned. Both the prince and the pauper may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them. If there is any veil, it is not over the Scripture, the veil is over the darkened minds of men. And section 9 continuing with this perspicuity, the infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself. What that is saying is Scripture is the best interpreter of Scripture. And if something is unclear in one place, it is abundantly clear in another place and these clear passages shine light on the unclear passages because the Bible never contradicts itself, it speaks with only one voice, Thomas Watson, my favorite Puritan perhaps, said, “Only a diamond can cut a diamond, Scripture interprets Scripture.”

And then finally, number 10 is a final summation in this first chapter on the authority of the Word of God and just to nail this down, they said the supreme judge by which all controversies are to be determined and are to be examined, can be no other than the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture. Not speaking in your revelations, not speaking in your dreams and visions, not speaking in your tongues, speaking in the Scripture alone and the Word of God will be the highest arbitrator of all matters in the life of the church.

Continued:

This is the commitment of the Puritans in 1646 as they drafted this extraordinary document after meeting over eleven hundred times, over the course of those three years, as they took their stand on the Word of God. The church has always been the strongest when it takes this stand on the Word of God. This is always the high ground in every era of church history when the church stands firmly upon sola scriptura. And if the church takes one step off of sola scriptura, she puts her foot on the slippery slope and it is a matter of time until she descends downward into liberalism, into ecumenicalism until she comes down to Agnosticism, ultimately to Atheism, the high ground is sola scriptura.

Every denomination that goes astray goes astray at this point. Every seminary that goes astray, goes astray at this point. Every church that goes astray goes astray at this point. Every denomination, every seminary, and every church that is strong in the grace of God is strong in being anchored upon sola scriptura. It is non-negotiable. We’re not just dogmatic about this, we’ll bulldog-matic about this. (Applause) The Word of God is not up for debate.

Now second, not only defined by the Westminster Divines, but second, I want you to note sadly deluded by the Quakers. Whenever God opens the windows of heaven to bless His people, the devil opens the gates of hell to blast. And whenever God is doing His greatest work, you can be sure that the devil is right there to bring in his counterfeit religion. And while the Puritans were meeting in Westminster in the 1640’s at exactly that same time, exactly that same time, virtually across town the devil was doing his work. And at the same time there arose in the sixteen forties, a fringe group that would come to be known as the Quakers. This radical sect was also known as the Religious Society of Friends. And they claimed to be receiving new revelations. They claimed to be receiving prophecies. And with that, they were being led astray into hyper emotionalism and into mysticism and that is where it always leads when you pull up anchor from sola scriptura.

They were led by a man named George Fox and they organized and had their first meeting in 1652. And at the heart of the Quaker theology was this message that one can be saved apart from the Scripture. That there is an inner light in all man. And this inner revelation makes salvation for all humanity possible. They call this Light Within the Indwelling Spirit. And they claim that the Spirit was even in unbelievers and as they gathered together as unbelievers, they claimed that they had the Holy Spirit within them. And to walk into a Quaker worship service, there was not an ordained pastor, no one would step into the pulpit with the Word of God and expound and proclaim the written Word of God. They would all sit in a building like we’re sitting and they would be encouraged to meditate. And as you would feel prompted, you may just stand up and speak and give direction to everyone else’s lives. Women were encouraged to stand up as well and to preach to the men. And out of this commitment, to be open and un-cautious to continuing revelation by the spirit they were led into all kinds of mystical experiences and bizarre patterns, not the least of which was going naked as a sign….a sign of judgment. And in June of 1654, two Quaker women, Elizabeth Fletcher and Elizabeth Levins(?), visited Oxford in order to bring the Quaker message to the University town. These two women began to preach to the Student Body at Oxford to warn the students of the evils of study and to give their minds to the intellectual world of academia, and to the study of the Bible, and they sought to persuade them that all they needed was the inner light given by the Holy Spirit. They did not need the library, they did not need the classroom, they did not need their professors, God would just speak to them inside their spirit.

That message fell on deaf ears. One of these women unclothed herself, walked around Oxford half naked, bare-breasted, claiming it was a sign of judgment against the hypocritical students. Such a bizarre act, clearly shows the inherent tendency in their Movement to exalt what they thought was the Holy Spirit but to go off into bizarre irrational, illogical patterns of behavior. But what is more bizarre than running around half naked is the outlandish claims and freakish actions of so man in today’s Charismatic Movement. What we just saw paraded before our eyes today during the question and answer is even more bizarre in my estimation than these women who took off their clothes and walked around naked. Listen to Marilyn Hickey, TBN televangelist, one of the guest speakers at the International Charismatic Bible Conference, there’s an oxymoron for you. And I quote, “What do you need? Start creating it. Start speaking about it. Start speaking it into being. Speak to your billfold, say, ‘You big thick billfold, full of money.’” I’ll give you the footnote on this, if you want. “Speak to your checkbook. Say, ‘You checkbook, you.’” I told you, this is beyond going naked. You checkbook you, you’ve never been so prosperous since I owned you, you’re just jammed full of money, aren’t you?’” Well that’s not all that was jammed full of something.

Kenneth Copeland, you talk about bizarre. You don’t have a god in you, you are one. Don’t be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you’re god. Pray to yourself. That is beyond running around naked. You have the same creative faith and ability on the inside of you that God used when He created the heavens and the earth. Yeah, just create your own little universe for you to live in. Your own little fantasy world. Kenneth Copeland said, “God is a being that stands somewhere around six foot two inches tall. There’s a high view of God for you. He said, “I don’t preach doctrine.” Well we believe you on that. I mean, we’re walking forward on that one. “I don’t preach doctrine, I preach faith.” Yeah, faith in yourself and faith in the devil. Kenneth Hagen says, “The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus Christ.” Fred Price I this town says, “Have a Rolls Royce faith.” And Benny Hinn says, “Are you ready for some real revelation knowledge? You are God.” He said, “Christians are little Messiahs, Christians are like gods.” He said, “Never ever ever go to the Lord and say, ‘If it be Thy will.’” He said, “We Christians possess power in our mouths to heal or kill just as witches possess it.” You’re right on that one. And he said, “We are little Messiahs, everything that Jesus ever was.”

I’m telling you, you take one step off of sola scriptura, you take one step off of sola scriptura and you have put your foot on a theological banana peel, you are on a slippery slope, it is inevitable you are headed down, down, down until you crash at the bottom. That’s what this Quaker Movement was about. And there was a reason why they called them Quakers because in their services they’re given to all of this shaking, in fact, as they came to the colonies, some places in the Midwest they were actually called shakers.

This leads me to number three, sola scriptura defended by John Owen. It was by no coincidence that on that very same campus at Oxford University, sitting as the vice chancellor, placed there by Oliver Cromwell, the Lord Protectorate of England, presiding over all the academia of the prestigious Oxford University, the towering intellect and a theological genius of John Owen. God had him there. And if anyone could dissect Quaker theology, it would be the great Puritan John Owen. It was John Owen who would become the personal chaplain to Oliver Cromwell. It would be John Owen who would preach to Parliament. It would be John Owen the day after Charles I had his head cut off and the end of the monarchy, John Owen addressed Parliament. This brilliant man whose theological writings now take up 23 volumes in a pastor’s study, gave himself to combat this Charismatic emotional departure from sola scriptura with its new revelations and John Owen affirmed the deeper issue which was sola scriptura. He cut through the chase, he got to the bottom line and tried to…and did address this issue of sola scriptura. It would be in 1659 that Owen responded to this Quaker affront by writing one of his most important works, the title of it is A Defense of Sacred Scripture Against the Fanatics. Chapter 1, chapter 2, chapter 3, chapter 4, I want to zone in on chapter 3. The title of chapter 3 is “On the perfection of Scripture.” And John Owen will state his case for the lunacy of these Charismatic excesses based upon the sure foundation of the perfection of the Word of God. John Calvin a century earlier as we looked at yesterday, would address this very same issue with the Libertines and with the Anabaptists with theological persu…precision by tying together the Word and the Spirit and the apostolic issue and that miracles would accompany the Apostles because new revelation was given. John Owen would take his stand upon a different defense. He chose to argue the perfection of the written Word of God as it is from Genesis to Revelation that it has everything that the church and everything that any believer would ever need in their spiritual lives to have revelation from God, it is already in the Bible. There is nothing to be added, it is perfect as it stands. And any attempt to add or to augment to the written Word of God is actually an attack against the perfection of Scripture. And John Owen began his defense with this statement, and I’ve distilled it down, and trust me, these are lengthy, full sentences and weighty paragraphs and I’ve distilled it down to make it easy for us to process.

He writes: “The Scriptures are the settled, that means immutable, eternal, unchangeable, ordinary as opposed to extraordinary revelation. These are the ordinary means of grace. Perfect, meaning it cannot be improved on, nothing is lacking in the Word of God, and unshakable rule. In every generation, on every continent, in every age and every place for every church and for every believer, for divine worship, which is Dr. MacArthur has explained in this conference is our highest duty before God, leaves no room…you understand what no room means?...no room for any new revelations. And if you are seeking any of these Charismatic, new revelations, it is because you have no understanding of the perfection of the written Word of God. John Owen then, as he mounts his defense, says, “What is the practical use for Scripture?” Meaning, what good is it to us? “If it is so incomplete as to need poor mortal men to be continually adding to it where is its perfection?” And the answer would have to be, if you’re trying to add to it, you are making a statement that it is not perfect already but it claims to be perfect. It claims to be inspired and inerrant and sufficient for all of God’s purposes. John Owen then lists seven consecutive paragraphs and I’ve reduced these down, as he walks through and this treatise a defense of the sacred Scripture against the fanatics. Number one, “God has revealed in the Bible everything that is needed for our salvation and to enable us to worship Him.” That is the sufficiency of Scripture. Everything that you need under the ministry of the Holy Spirit is found in your written Bible to lead you to Christ and to lead you to Godliness and to led you on to heaven.

Concluded:

Number two, a statement on the perspicuity of Scripture, All of this is revealed in the books of the Bible where they’re expressly laid out there or deductible. In other words, it’s either explicit or implicit but it is stated in Scripture and it is done so in a very clear fashion. In other words, God knows how to communicate. God can communicate better than anyone in this room. And what God has said in His Word is abundantly clear in the important matters of salvation and holiness.

Number three, there is absolutely no room for new revelations. That’s exactly how the book of Revelation concludes in Revelation 22:18 that if anyone adds to this book the plagues written in this book will be added to them. That is a serious indictment and warning that God places for anyone to add Revelation to the consummation of the revelation in the written Word of God. There is absolutely no room for new revelations, for our salvation and the acceptable worship of God.

Number four, he says it is most supreme arrogance and pride for mere men to propose novel matters of faith or practice not revealed by God Himself in His Word. He says it is the epitome of arrogance and pride as if you need some special private revelation like you’re someone really special that you’re better than everyone else in the world that just has to operate by the Bible that you think you are so special that God would have to give you a private little mystical revelation just for you, how self-centered you are, it is arrogance, it is pride. No, what God has said to everyone He says to you.

Number five, as the teachings of the fanatics, that is those given to these new revelations and these hyper emotional excesses as the teachings of the fanatics contain matter alien to the Scriptures. This is Owen’s counsel to his generation. Shun them.as diabolical, useless, groundless, and false. It’s from the devil and you don’t need what he’s selling.

Number six, this inner light, this supposed inner intuitive subjective message from the Holy Spirit in you, not coming through the written Word of God, Owen says, would divert attention from the perfection of the Bible. It’s just going to draw you away into a fantasy world. It’s going to pull you away from where you need to be setting your anchor in the written Word of God, it is going to bring you over here into that which is useless and false.

Number seven, the Bible is a complete and perfect rule. Since the completion of the canon of Scripture, there are no new revelations, none are to be expected or admitted. He is closing the door, shut and locking it on any new revelations. And then he adds, if the Scriptures are perfect and complete, and they are, if the Scriptures are perfect and complete, then what need do we have for new revelations and uncontrolled enthusiasm? That is a rhetorical question, the answer of which is so obvious, Owen doesn’t even bother to answer his own question, it is a rhetorical question. The answer is zero.

And then finally, all these ways referring to the abuses of the Quakers in this inner light, new revelation, mystical intuitive, subjective impulses are uncertain, dangerous, useless and totally unnecessary. They must be rejected and shunned.

One man who I wrote…who I read on this who has written the preface to this defense of sacred Scripture against the fanatic Steven Westcott(?) says, “John Owen was to view the scene of the church today, if he was to see the craving and the lusting for new revelation beyond the Bible, he says it would all come back to the root cause of being unpersuaded of the perfection of the written Word of God.

Sixteen sixty-two is a year that will live in infamy in church history. It was in 1662, two years after Charles II came back to restore the monarchy in England, as the Puritans are trying to purify the Church of England and spread its influence of sola scriptura throughout the United Kingdom, the English Parliament passed the act of uniformity that every preacher in the Church of England must subscribe to the prescribed public prayers and ways of worshiping God and you must sign on and the Puritans’ conscience as bound to sola scriptura, they could not violate their own conscience. And on August twenty-fourth, 1662, one of the darkest days in all of church history, two thousand Puritan preachers were put out of their pulpits in what is known as the Great Ejection. They were forced out of their ministries, forced out of their churches, forced out of their pulpits and then two years later the convetical() act was passed by Parliament, that banned these preachers from even preaching in private homes or in open fields and then the next year they passed the five-mile act that barred these ejected ministers from even coming within five miles of any city. And when it would come time for them to die, even their bodies could not be buried within the city limits, or within the church cemeteries.

Whenever I go to London, the first place I go is to Smithfield, one, to stand where John Rogers was burned at the stake by Bloody Mary, and then the very short distance to Bun hill(?) Fields where the Puritans were buried outside the city limits. It was a sign of rejection, it was a sign of reputation. They were considered as Christ crucified outside the city. Bun hill Field is now within the city of London, but in that day it was an ignominious sign of total rejection. And as you walk in to Bun Hill Fields, there you see the tomb of John Owen. John Owen D.D., doctor of Divinity. There you see the tomb of John Bunyan who wrote that classic Pilgrim’s Progress. There you see the tomb of Isaac Watts, we heard that great hymn sung tonight, “When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my greatest gain I count by loss.” There he lays. Thomas Goodwin, other Puritan giants, many of whom have no headstones who were just stacked one upon another, upon another, upon another as they died in anonymity. They were willing to pledge their life and their death on sola scriptura. May we here tonight have a cessation clause in our personal statement of faith. May we be not given to the excesses of this age, may we stand on the Word of God and the Word of God alone, and may the Word of God regulate and rule the entirety of our lives. May the Word of God regulate our preaching of the Word. May it regulate our worship of God. May it regulate our fellowship with one another. May the Word of God regulate our daily lives. May the Word of God regulate our ministries, and may the Word of God regulate our steps as we hasten to the grave. And may the Word of God and the Word of God only be our rule of faith and our standard for what is true in this world. May God give us much grace to stand upon the Word of God. Let us pray.

Father, I pray that You would work within our hearts, that we would be found a faithful generation here upon the earth. Lord, we desire to be a part of a remnant that will remain true to the book and to the book alone. Lord, I pray that You would give us insight and understanding from the Scriptures that we have looked at tonight, from its inerrancy to its infallibility, to its inspiration, to its sufficiency, to its immutability, all the way down to its invincibility and its finality. And, God, may You make us mighty in the Word and not simply to be committed to the Word, but may we confess the Word, may we preach the Word, may we proclaim the Word, share the Word, sing the Word, counsel with the Word, may we follow the Word and embrace its teaching because it is a lamp unto our feet, it is a light unto our path, it is a fire in our bones, it is the sword of the Spirit at our side. O God, thank You that You have entrusted to such pilgrims, strangers and aliens in this world, such a treasure to us as Your perfect written Word, for it tells us of our perfect living Savior, the living Word, Jesus Christ our Lord. It is in His name that we pray. Amen.

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/TM13-12/the-puritan-commitment-to-sola-scriptura-steve-lawson

I will be returning to do the summary of the last post but I have been having this question on my mind which I will like vooks and sammied to answer:

Is there a fundamental difference between white garment churches and leading pentecostal churches in Nigeria, or can we safely conclude that the latter is a "modernized" form on the former?

SUMMARY OF STEVE LAWSON'S PURITAN COMMITMENT TO SOLA SCRIPTURA

1. The Reformers had a leading doctrine for life and ministry, this was Sola Scriptura, Scriptures only. Rome wanted scriptures and church traditions; the Anabaptist and Libertines wanted scriptures and dreams, and voices and visions; but the reformers insisted on scriptures alone. This is the tradition the Puritans of England inherited and practiced.
2. We will be looking at the Presentation from three point of view: Sola Scriptura as defended by the Westminster Divine; as deluded by the Quacker's and as defended by John Owen, England's John Calvin.

Let us first consider the basis for Sola Scriptura:

a. Scriptures are inspired. Every word is God's breadth. They cannot be placed on the same pedestal with visions, voices, impression, etc. They are God's own words.
b. The bible are inerrant. God's Word is truth and there are no mistakes in it.
c. The bible is infallible. Everything written therein will come to pass.
d. The perpiscuity of the scriptures. The bible is clear, lucid and understandable. Rome said the bible could not be understood by ordinary men, the reformers and Puritans disagreed.
e. The sufficiency of the scriptures: the bible is able to convict, convert, conform, console and correct. The word of God is powerful.
f. The immutability of the scriptures. That is, scriptures don't change.
g. The finality of scriptures: there are no more new revelations given to man.

3. In 1646, leading Puritan men completed a document that will act as rule of faith for the nation of England: they are the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Westminster Divine founded upon a solid understanding of Sola Scriptura.
4. In section one of the document, the Puritans emphasize the cessation of divine revelations. They made it clear that scriptures were complete and there were no need for new revelations.
5. Section two speaks of the inspiration and authority of scriptures. That the bible were God's own words. The bible was to be our rule of faith and life.
3. Section three stated that the Apocrypha were not part of scriptures. The bible contained 66 books only.
4. Section four: the authority of scriptures must be believed and obeyed.
5. Section six: The scriptures are sufficient. Here John Owen will put off the religion of the Quackers: “Away with your dreams and visions, away with your new revelations, we have the all-sufficient written Word of God."
6. Section seven said that not only the learned could learn the scriptures. God's revelation was to all and for all.
7. Section nine speak more on the perpiscuity of scriptures. Only scripture could interpret scriptures. Whatever is not clear in a section will be made clear in another.
8. Section ten said the supreme judge by which all controversies are to be determined and are to be examined, can be no other than the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture. Not speaking in your revelations, not speaking in your dreams and visions, not speaking in your tongues, (but) speaking in the Scripture alone.
11. Every and any straying from biblical standards starts with a low view of Sola Scriptura.
12. Sola Scriptura was deluded by the Quackers, whose "Society of Friends" was birth about the same time by George Fox.
13. In one breadth, Quakerism could be likened to a mixture of today's white garment churches and pentecostalism.
14. In 1654, two Quacker women visited the University town of Oxford, deriding study and insisting that all the student needed was inner light guidance. One of them even went about bear breasted, saying it was a sign of Gods judgement on the students. No one listened to them.
15. They were called Quackers bc their meetings were characterized with shaking of some individuals as they came under mystical experiences.
16. John Owen happened to be the Vice Chancellor of Oxford at thus time and he defender Christianity against Quackers by simply stating the doctrines on Sola Scriptura.
17. " this inner light, this supposed inner intuitive subjective message from the Holy Spirit in you, not coming through the written Word of
God, Owen says, would divert attention from the perfection of the Bible. It’s just going to draw you away into a fantasy world. It’s going to pull you
away from where you need to be setting your anchor in the written Word of God, it is going to bring you over here into that which is useless and false."
18. "Sixteen sixty-two is a year that will live in infamy in churches history. It was in 1662, two years after Charles II came back to restore the monarchy in England, as the Puritans are trying to purify the Church of England and spread its influence of sola scriptura throughout the United Kingdom, the English Parliament passed the act of uniformity that every preacher in the Church of England must subscribe to the prescribed public prayers and ways of worshiping God and you must sign on and the Puritans’ conscience as bound to sola scriptura, they could not violate their own conscience. And on August twenty-fourth, 1662, one of the darkest days in all of church history, two thousand Puritan preachers were put out of their pulpits in what is known as the Great Ejection. They were forced out of their ministries, forced out of their churches, forced out of their pulpits and then two years later the convetical ( ) act was passed by Parliament, that banned these preachers from even preaching in private homes or in open fields and then the next year they passed the five-mile act that barred these ejected ministers from even coming within five miles of any city. And when it would come time for them to die, even their bodies could not be buried within the city limits, or within the church cemeteries."
19. Men like John Owen and John Bunyan were buried outside the city because of their commitment to Sola Scriptura.
20. America was born as many fled the religious persecution in England to seek religious freedom in the new colonies. America might be said to have been born by the commitment of some men to scriptures only.

Great job @winsomex

shdemidemi:
Great job @winsomex

Thank you shdemidemi.

I am beginning to feel that this last presentation by Steve Lawson is arguably the most insightful. Doing the summary now, I couldn't help but appreciate the depth of information.

Winsomex,
From the little I know of white garment phenomena, I'd say they are in their own league.

WinsomeX:
I will be returning to do the summary of the last post but I have been having this question on my mind which I will like vooks and sammied to answer:

Is there a fundamental difference between white garment churches and leading pentecostal churches in Nigeria, or can we safely conclude that the latter is a "modernized" form on the former?

vooks:
Winsomex,
From the little I know of white garment phenomena, I'd say they are in their own league.

Thanks for your response vooks. I appreciate it. I was beginning to fear I may have offended you (too) mortally. Lol.

Listen to a story a friend told me. Not very dramatic but I have a point to show in it.

When this friend of mine was younger his mother used to take them to a white garment church. One time in the church there was a need to appoint a new leadership of a number of men - say nine of them. The church agreed that they were going to allow God choose a leader. There were some men who were eligible and they were going to allow the Holy Spirit to choose among them. One day, during a "stormy" time of worship, the Holy Spirit was said to have possessed a young woman and she began to prophesy. She will speak in tongues for a few minutes and interpret. At some point she began to reel out the names of the leaders. My friends mum became troubled at a point when the supposed spirit went way beyond nine people and mentioned close to double the number. Her question was: can't the Holy Spirit count? That was what led to their leaving the church.

My point: Pentecostalism is very similar to white garment churches. The white garment people have only taking what pentecostals have tempered to another notch. This might be a reason to learn from the Cessationists.

1. Both teach and practice an overly hyped theology on the Holy Spirit.
2. Both claim to hear God speak. Not from the bible but from mystical experiences.
3. Both speak with tongues. And as my story depict, the white garment go a step further and interpret.
4. Both have a low view of biblical theology and exalt experiences.
5. Both revel in dreams, visions, voices, encounters with spirit and angels.
6. Both carry out worship sessions that can be chaotic. The white garment being more chaotic.
7. Both practice syncretism.

The point that Steven Lawson made about Quackers is very instructive. Is it that the moment human beings open themselves up to mystical experiences they will always encounter spirits?

My broda, am in the least offended.

There is spiritual abuse in Christianity and one can argue that if they were not Christians, the abuse could not have happened. That's the point you and Strange Fire are making in many words. And you can't be pinned because if I point any unbiblical teaching and practice from your corner, you will say those are not Sola Scriptura.

The biggest error here is not cessationists branding themselves sola Scriptura but in claiming nobody else is. It specifically is in equating that continuoism with rejection of sola scriptura. A man who rejects scriptures is an easy punching bag. I mean they are a step away from atheism yet they claim to be Christians.

WinsomeX:


Thanks for your response vooks. I appreciate it. I was beginning to fear I may have offended you (too) mortally. Lol.

Listen to a story a friend told me. Not very dramatic but I have a point to show in it.

When this friend of mine was younger his mother used to take them to a white garment church. One time in the church there was a need to appoint a new leadership of a number of men - say nine of them. The church agreed that they were going to allow God choose a leader. There were some men who were eligible and they were going to allow the Holy Spirit to choose among them. One day, during a "stormy" time of worship, the Holy Spirit was said to have possessed a young woman and she began to prophesy. She will speak in tongues for a few minutes and interpret. At some point she began to reel out the names of the leaders. My friends mum became troubled at a point when the supposed spirit went way beyond nine people and mentioned close to double the number. Her question was: can't the Holy Spirit count? That was what led to their leaving the church.

My point: Pentecostalism is very similar to white garment churches. The white garment people have only taking what pentecostals have tempered to another notch. This might be a reason to learn from the Cessationists.

1. Both teach and practice an overly hyped theology on the Holy Spirit.
2. Both claim to hear God speak. Not from the bible but from mystical experiences.
3. Both speak with tongues. And as my story depict, the white garment go a step further and interpret.
4. Both have a low view of biblical theology and exalt experiences.
5. Both revel in dreams, visions, voices, encounters with spirit and angels.
6. Both carry out worship sessions that can be chaotic. The white garment being more chaotic.
7. Both practice syncretism.

The point that Steven Lawson made about Quackers is very instructive. Is it that the moment human beings open themselves up to mystical experiences they will always encounter spirits?

vooks:
My broda, am in the least offended.

Thank God. And thank you.

vooks:

There is spiritual abuse in Christianity and one can argue that if they were not Christians, the abuse could not have happened. That's the point you and Strange Fire are making in many words. And you can't be pinned because if I point any unbiblical teaching and practice from your corner, you will say those are not Sola Scriptura.

I think abuse is one thing. Falsehood is another thing entirely. And we must be able to distinguish this.

I have labored to offer summaries to the texts of these presentation bc I desire that readers can receive the message anyway. For those who cannot read the text can read the summary and if there is little to pin down in the text, you can try the summary. What I suspect is that there is nothing to pin in these texts. These gentlemen so presented their arguments that as Jesus said they cannot be gain said. Except for nlmediator who attempted it once, no one else has and there has been about eight presentations so far.

I maintain that I am not strictly Cessationists but you must give it to these guys that they know what they are talking about and their discuss here are uptight, well researched and well entrenched both in scriptural and historical facts. They simply have silenced their critics and thus months after the conference, we are yet to find one wholesome response to Strange Fire.

vooks:

The biggest error here is not cessationists branding themselves sola Scriptura but in claiming nobody else is. It specifically is in equating that continuoism with rejection of sola scriptura. A man who rejects scriptures is an easy punching bag. I mean they are a step away from atheism yet they claim to be Christians.

I request that you refer to specific statements made in the presentations if you can.

Winsomex,
Good job.
1. Now, a claim has been made that gifts ceased with the completion of the canon and as Nlmediator pointed out, nobody has even attempted to prove this. This is taken as a given. Tongues and prophecies will cease we all agree but WHEN is in contention

2. Following 1, any belief or experience of the giftings is dismissed as extra-biblical and probably demonic, disrespectful to Sola Scriptura and the CAUSE of all these Pentecostal excesses

I can choose to fight individual words or the spirit behind the words which is summarised in 1 & 2. You may want to correct me here if you believe am misrepresenting.

I have variously wherever I had time posed a few questions or made my observations after most speaker.

Let me pose these questions to you Winsomex;

1. Do you regard a believer speaking in tongues today as either faking it or demon possessed, or anything but the Holy spirit

2. What is the present ROLE of the Holy Spirit on earth?

3. Since you have presented yourself as differing with cessationists and continuationists, exactly what do you believe in?

WinsomeX:


Thank God. And thank you.



I think abuse is one thing. Falsehood is another thing entirely. And we must be able to distinguish this.

I have labored to offer summaries to the texts of these presentation bc I desire that readers can receive the message anyway. For those who cannot read the text can read the summary and if there is little to pin down in the text, you can try the summary. What I suspect is that there is nothing to pin in these texts. These gentlemen so presented their arguments that as Jesus said they cannot be gain said. Except for nlmediator who attempted it once, no one else has and there has been about eight presentations so far.

I maintain that I am not strictly Cessationists but you must give it to these guys that they know what they are talking about and their discuss here are uptight, well researched and well entrenched both in scriptural and historical facts. They simply have silenced their critics and thus months after the conference, we are yet to find one wholesome response to Strange Fire.



I request that you refer to specific statements made in the presentations if you can.

kai vooks ... now you have me... lol

I was hoping for this sort of exchange. Give me sometimes and let me attempt a response. But good questions all the same.

vooks:

1. Do you regard a believer speaking in tongues today as either faking it or demon possessed, or anything but the Holy spirit

I believe two things about speaking with tongues today. 1. The first one is that the valid gift of tongues scriptures speaks about is the supernatural ability of the Holy Spirit to empower an individual to speak in foreign languages he has never learnt and does not understand. For a given purpose: for evangelism or to manifest God's wonders that spur reverence and awe into conversion. This gift still operate today but in very rare circumstances when God is pleased to allow it manifest. 2. The overall majority of tongues spoken by Pentecostals is not by the Holy Spirit. I will also not presume to say it is by some evil spirit. This tongues is no language. It's simply noise making... Gibberish. It is an art that can be learnt. And in some cases it is given by spirits other than the Spirit of God. People involved in New Age eastern cults, Kudalini and stuffs, are known to speak in such tongues too.

vooks:

2. What is the present ROLE of the Holy Spirit on earth?

MacArthur actually answered this in an earlier presentation on this thread. But let me try:
1. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and bring men to repentance. He is the author of regeneration. And he birth the new life that makes the individual born again. He gives saving faith.
2. At conversion, every person is filled with the Holy Spirit. He replaces our natural taste for godliness. And continues to spur us through life towards greater godliness.
3. The Holy Spirit gives understanding of scriptures. Reading the bible is means to knowing God. He gives us greater understanding of God through scriptures.
4. The Holy Spirit leads Christians through various ways. It can be providential, circumstantial or even through clear impressions which when mastered can become the voice of the Spirit to us. It is not our duty to box him into leading us in one way alone. The true Christian is sensitive to everything as it might be God's means of talking to him.
5. The Holy Spirit comforts in trials. In the time of our death, the Holy Spirit shall grant dying grace so that the Christian dimply sales into heaven regardless of manner of death.
6. The Spirit gives assurance of salvation; faith in God; and a living hope.
7. The Holy Spirit helps us to pray. He brings things to our remembrance. He even intercede for us, Rom 8:26.
8. The Spirit of God helps us to birth godly fruits.
9. He gives utterances for preaching or before the high and mighty.
10. The Holy Spirit is God with Us. Whatever we may desire of God, we can trust the Holy Spirit for. He makes Jesus real to us. The Spirit doesn't glorify himself, rather he glorifies Jesus.

vooks:

3. Since you have presented yourself as differing with cessationists and continuationists, exactly what do you believe in?

Remember you had asked me if I was Cessationist and I said I was a Christian. My point in saying that was not to sound self righteous but to say that my loyalty is to scripture and it's doctrine and not to any Christian group. There are things in each group one can learn from. I happen to have garnered a great deal from the Cessationists and that is why I have opened this thread. There are points the continutionists too are making that are biblical. Unfortunately, though few, there are point even the WoF chaps are making that one can learn from. Paul in 1 Cor 11 calls it discerning the body (of Christ): being able to see Jesus in another who named the name of the Lord in spite of differing theological positions. It also means being able to discern another Jesus in some who falsely profess Jesus.

I believe the scriptures roundly. I think the Cessationists have made salient points that we all can learn from. And thus we have this thread.

Phew..!

Winsomex,
1. Is there record of tongues used to pray in Corinthians, something which Paul says edifies the individual? Gibberish is what they thought of Pentecost. Why so? Although just about every devout Jew understood the disciples, they at the same time heard languages they dint understand. There are over 3000 languages and dialects in the world. Others have gone extinct. How would a language you don't understand sound except gibberish?
The frequent comparison with false religions is worrying. Is there ANY unique Christian experience that is exclusive to this faith? Should we dismiss as not of God any experience we see in other faiths?


2. Let's look at those roles of the Holy Spirit closely. ALL of them would qualify as extra-biblical revelations and encounters and diminishing Sola Scriptura.
(a) How does Holy Spirit convict? If it is through scriptures, then it is the scriptures at work. But then again, how comes not everyone exposed to the same scriptures recieve conviction? MacArthur is in many words saying the Spirit APPEALS to man in a supernatural way.
(b)godliness. This too entails Holy Spirit doing much more than scriptures themselves can accomplish otherwise the infilling is redundant
(c)Understanding of scriptures. How does He do this? He gives meanings an otherwise natural mind would never arrive at with all PhDs.
(c) lead. How do you know? Comfort? How sure are you? Utterances? Are you sure they are from Him? How so? And how does he help us pray?

My point is not to mock the work of the Holy Spirit but to demonstrate that Sola Scriptura is not incompatible with manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. All those roles you have highlighted are subjective just as spiritual gifts are and when not checked against scriptures can lead to error. So the solution is not dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit but to subject the same to scriptures. It is hypocritical for cessationists to believe the Spirit is doing all this extra-Biblical work and to claim that Pentecostals are the ones guilty of extra-Biblical stuff

3. Winsomex, you are shrewd. When you claim that you pledge allegiance not to any group but to scriptures, the same can be said of pentecostals,cessationists and so forth. You are basically deflecting. The question is, what doctrinal position has your devotion to scriptures and not to any group yielded?

And finally, do you see how unfair it is to compare pentecostal abuses of the gifts with cessationists? You will never catch a cessationist abusing these gifts because they don't believe let alone practice them.
I would like you to attempt to enumerate cessationist abuses

WinsomeX:


I believe two things about speaking with tongues today. 1. The first one is that the valid gift of tongues scriptures speaks about is the supernatural ability of the Holy Spirit to empower an individual to speak in foreign languages he has never learnt and does not understand. For a given purpose: for evangelism or to manifest God's wonders that spur reverence and awe into conversion. This gift still operate today but in very rare circumstances when God is pleased to allow it manifest. 2. The overall majority of tongues spoken by Pentecostals is not by the Holy Spirit. I will also not presume to say it is by some evil spirit. This tongues is no language. It's simply noise making... Gibberish. It is an art that can be learnt. And in some cases it is given by spirits other than the Spirit of God. People involved in New Age eastern cults, Kudalini and stuffs, are known to speak in such tongues too.



MacArthur actually answered this in an earlier presentation on this thread. But let me try:
1. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and bring men to repentance. He is the author of regeneration. And he birth the new life that makes the individual born again. He gives saving faith.
2. At conversion, every person is filled with the Holy Spirit. He replaces our natural taste for godliness. And continues to spur us through life towards greater godliness.
3. The Holy Spirit gives understanding of scriptures. Reading the bible is means to knowing God. He gives us greater understanding of God through scriptures.
4. The Holy Spirit leads Christians through various ways. It can be providential, circumstantial or even through clear impressions which when mastered can become the voice of the Spirit to us. It is not our duty to box him into leading us in one way alone. The true Christian is sensitive to everything as it might be God's means of talking to him.
5. The Holy Spirit comforts in trials. In the time of our death, the Holy Spirit shall grant dying grace so that the Christian dimply sales into heaven regardless of manner of death.
6. The Spirit gives assurance of salvation; faith in God; and a living hope.
7. The Holy Spirit helps us to pray. He brings things to our remembrance. He even intercede for us, Rom 8:26.
8. The Spirit of God helps us to birth godly fruits.
9. He gives utterances for preaching or before the high and mighty.
10. The Holy Spirit is God with Us. Whatever we may desire of God, we can trust the Holy Spirit for. He makes Jesus real to us. The Spirit doesn't glorify himself, rather he glorifies Jesus.



Remember you had asked me if I was Cessationist and I said I was a Christian. My point in saying that was not to sound self righteous but to say that my loyalty is to scripture and it's doctrine and not to any Christian group. There are things in each group one can learn from. I happen to have garnered a great deal from the Cessationists and that is why I have opened this thread. There are points the continutionists too are making that are biblical. Unfortunately, though few, there are point even the WoF chaps are making that one can learn from. Paul in 1 Cor 11 calls it discerning the body (of Christ): being able to see Jesus in another who named the name of the Lord in spite of differing theological positions. It also means being able to discern another Jesus in some who falsely profess Jesus.

I believe the scriptures roundly. I think the Cessationists have made salient points that we all can learn from. And thus we have this thread.

Phew..!

vooks:
Winsomex,
1. Is there record of tongues used to pray in Corinthians, something which Paul says edifies the individual? Gibberish is what they thought of Pentecost. Why so? Although just about every devout Jew understood the disciples, they at the same time heard languages they dint understand. There are over 3000 languages and dialects in the world. Others have gone extinct. How would a language you don't understand sound except gibberish?

A point was made in the presentations earlier, I cannot remember who made it, that the tongues of Acts 2 and 1 Cor 12-14 are one and the same - they were languages. Pentecostal teach otherwise: they say one was a language and the other was not, they sometimes call it angelic tongues. When we understand that, we can get what Paul was saying in 1 Cor 14. So biblical tongues were languages. Whoever prayed in tongues, prayed with those languages. Whoever spoke with tongues, spoke languages. Languishes that have meaning, that could be interpreted. When you pray in tongue and no one can tell what you are saying, you are speaking gibberish. And yes, a lot of tongues prayed in church today is gibberish.

vooks:

The frequent comparison with false religions is worrying. Is there ANY unique Christian experience that is exclusive to this faith? Should we dismiss as not of God any experience we see in other faiths?

Can you give me an example of a Christian practice today, found in scriptures, and also imitated by the heathen? I am not saying there are none. I want you to suggest one or two outsides tongues and let's discuss them.

Tongues talking, gibberish, is not just found in Kudalini, it was said in this same conference that people spoke in tongues when the Mormon temple was to be opened in mid 19th century. So Mormons spoke in tongues long before William Seymour of 1900.

vooks:

2. Let's look at those roles of the Holy Spirit closely. ALL of them would qualify as extra-biblical revelations and encounters and diminishing Sola Scriptura.
(a) How does Holy Spirit convict? If it is through scriptures, then it is the scriptures at work. But then again, how comes not everyone exposed to the same scriptures recieve conviction? MacArthur is in many words saying the Spirit APPEALS to man in a supernatural way.
(b)godliness. This too entails Holy Spirit doing much more than scriptures themselves can accomplish otherwise the infilling is redundant
(c)Understanding of scriptures. How does He do this? He gives meanings an otherwise natural mind would never arrive at with all PhDs.
(c) lead. How do you know? Comfort? How sure are you? Utterances? Are you sure they are from Him? How so? And how does he help us pray?

I enumerated 10 things the Holy Spirit does in us following your question. Each of them can be linked with a scripture; non is extra biblical. Even if you say some are subjective, you can find a scriptural base for it. What I would find difficult to accept is someone telling me that the Holy Spirit is the author of laughing in the Spirit when there is not one account of anyone doing such in the bible.

vooks:

My point is not to mock the work of the Holy Spirit but to demonstrate that Sola Scriptura is not incompatible with manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. All those roles you have highlighted are subjective just as spiritual gifts are and when not checked against scriptures can lead to error. So the solution is not dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit but to subject the same to scriptures. It is hypocritical for cessationists to believe the Spirit is doing all this extra-Biblical work and to claim that Pentecostals are the ones guilty of extra-Biblical stuff

The Cessationists grouse with Pentecostals is that they carry out extra biblical practices and doctrines. The reason for the thread is so that we might hear them. Now, of all the things they have said, is there anything they accused the Pentecostals of and were wrong? Including tongues.

vooks:
3. Winsomex, you are shrewd. When you claim that you pledge allegiance not to any group but to scriptures, the same can be said of pentecostals, cessationists and so forth. You are basically deflecting. The question is, what doctrinal position has your devotion to scriptures and not to any group yielded?

That's why in making the comment, I said I didn't want to be self righteous. Everyone has a right to call himself a Christian and refuse a group tag. I choose that. I also think the Cessationists, Pentecostals and others can choose to be called Christians too. Maybe we should all shed the toga of group names and stick with being Christians. I made that point to say that I have learnt and I am learning from all Christian groups. The Cessationists are making a point here, we will need to hear them.

vooks:

And finally, do you see how unfair it is to compare pentecostal abuses of the gifts with cessationists? You will never catch a cessationist abusing these gifts because they don't believe let alone practice them.
I would like you to attempt to enumerate cessationist abuses

The Cessationists have told us what gifts have ceased: apostles, prophets and the apostolic sign gifts of miracles and tongues. I believe them.

These are my reservations with Cessationists:

1. I agree that the Cessationists are not being entirely honest about how God speak. They insist that God speaks only through scriptures. But if they agree that the Holy Spirit can convict of sin, then he us speaking: saying you are a sinner. This same Spirit can say much more. But I agree with them that a lot that is attributed to the Spirit are not the Holy Spirit's words.

2. The allegation that Cessationists have a tendency to reduce religion to pure academic exercise devoid of true living relations with Christ.

WinsomeX:


A point was made in the presentations earlier, I cannot remember who made it, that the tongues of Acts 2 and 1 Cor 12-14 are one and the same - they were languages. Pentecostal teach otherwise: they say one was a language and the other was not, they sometimes call it angelic tongues. When we understand that, we can get what Paul was saying in 1 Cor 14. So biblical tongues were languages. Whoever prayed in tongues, prayed with those languages. Whoever spoke with tongues, spoke languages. Languishes that have meaning, that could be interpreted. When you pray in tongue and no one can tell what you are saying, you are speaking gibberish. And yes, a lot of tongues prayed in church today is gibberish.

Ifgibberish is defined by your lack of understanding, then am OK with that.

Can you give me an example of a Christian practice today, found in scriptures, and also imitated by the heathen? I am not saying there are none. I want you to suggest one or two outsides tongues and let's discuss them.

Prayer is one good example

Tongues talking, gibberish, is not just found in Kudalini, it was said in this same conference that people spoke in tongues when the Mormon temple was to be opened in mid 19th century. So Mormons spoke in tongues long before William Seymour of 1900.

Like I said,existence of the practice among non-Christians does not in itself invalidate it. You want to dispute that?

I enumerated 10 things the Holy Spirit does in us following your question. Each of them can be linked with a scripture; non is extra biblical. Even if you say some are subjective, you can find a scriptural base for it. What I would find difficult to accept is someone telling me that the Holy Spirit is the author of laughing in the Spirit when there is not one account of anyone doing such in the bible.

Had Cessationists been humble enough to admit that their cessation arguments are not conclusive, then you would have inserted praying in tongues right there. The question then would have been abuse of a valid spiritual gift or Holy Spirit work and not imparting extrabiblical stuff into Christianity. So it all boils down to their conviction about cessation. They are basically using EXPERIENCE to advance their beliefs. They are saying 'hey, those guys talk in tongues and mess so much so we are super cool since we do none of that. We must be right'

The Cessationists grouse with Pentecostals is that they carry out extra biblical practices and doctrines. The reason for the thread is so that we might hear them. Now, of all the things they have said, is there anything they accused the Pentecostals of and were wrong? Including tongues.

The Cessationists have authoritatively declared tongues and prophecy to be unbiblical without proof. At best, scriptural cessation arguments are fickle

That's why in making the comment, I said I didn't want to be self righteous. Everyone has a right to call himself a Christian and refuse a group tag. I choose that. I also think the Cessationists, Pentecostals and others can choose to be called Christians too. Maybe we should all shed the toga of group names and stick with being Christians. I made that point to say that I have learnt and I am learning from all Christian groups. The Cessationists are making a point here, we will need to hear them.

They are not making a point as such but just blowing their own trumpet. It is self-righteousness show there

The Cessationists have told us what gifts have ceased: apostles, prophets and the apostolic sign gifts of miracles and tongues. I believe them.

They have told us thus without proof is my problem with them

These are my reservations with Cessationists:

1. I agree that the Cessationists are not being entirely honest about how God speak. They insist that God speaks only through scriptures. But if they agree that the Holy Spirit can convict of sin, then he us speaking: saying you are a sinner. This same Spirit can say much more. But I agree with them that a lot that is attributed to the Spirit are not the Holy Spirit's words.

2. The allegation that Cessationists have a tendency to reduce religion to pure academic exercise devoid of true living relations with Christ.

They are VERY dishonest and hypocritical. They have created an artificial boundary between what God does and what He doesn't and have labeled everyone on one side as ignorant and blasphemous. They surely are 'not like other men'

Valid biblical practices are also easily abused. THink marriage, parenting and so forth and they would have us ignore spiritual gifts because they are abused. I aksed you what should we do with Christianity seeing we are having abise after abuse? Discard it altogether?

[size=16pt]ARE WE PREACHERS OR WITCHDOCTORS by Conrad Mbewe[/size]

Well it’s a joy to be back here, this morning, and to bring God’s Word to you. And I thank you for those words of commendation, Phil. What I’ll do this morning is basically answer the question, “Are we preachers, or witch doctors?” Now that’s sounds strange, I know it, to the American ear, but that’s a very relevant question for my own situation back home because that’s a matter that I have raised, it’s something I have dealt with in my blog because it’s a pertinent question. There’s been clearly a shift in the way in which “evangelicals,” I keep putting that in quotation marks, relating to the pastoral ministry.

To get us going, I want us to begin by reading 2 Timothy chapter 3. The passage that clearly demonstrates before us something of what a true preacher of the Word of God ought to be occupied with. Second Timothy chapter 3 and verse 16, while you’re getting there, let me quickly say something of what I said two evenings ago, that it will be a broad sweep that I’ll be giving you across what’s happening back home in Africa. Invariably some people will be caught up in that broad brush that may not completely fit into the description, but I trust you’ll appreciate that I only have so much time with me. So clearly that’s at least something you can bear with in order to achieve the greater good.

Second Timothy 3 and verse 16, the Apostle Paul writes, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness so that,” there’s the famous phrase, “the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His Kingdom, I give you this charge, preach the Word. Be prepared in season and out of season, correct, rebuke and encourage with great patience and careful instruction.”

I’ll end my reading there. This is the last surviving epistle that the Apostle Paul wrote on the eve of his own departure. As the last chapter goes on to say his conscience of the fact that he will soon leave this scene of his labors, more or less the way in which the Lord Jesus Christ in the Upper Room discussed was also speaking and ending with the prayer that we quoted last time. Both of them are conscious that they are living but with their departure will not come the end of the Christian church and so there is a defining moment in which they are saying this is what you ought to concentrate on. The Lord in His prayer, the Apostle Paul in a direct exhortation.

And as you notice from these few words that we have read, the Apostle is quick to…to…to clarify in Timothy’s mind the primary instrument that he is to use. It’s divinely inspired and it is sufficient for all the work the man of God is required to do so that he might be thoroughly, completely, adequately equipped for every good work. The second based on the first is that he puts a charge upon him, a hair-raising charge, invoking the name of God the Father, God the Son, pointing to the coming judgment and he says to him, “Not only that you are to preach, but that you are to preach the Word.” You are to expound these scriptures that I’ve spoken about. And thirdly, not only when you’ve got an audience that’s willing and ready and looking forward to hearing what we have to say. But even when men and women are stopping their ears, preach it. Be patient but preach it. Do all you can to ensure that this happens.

Let me read to you, two newspaper clippings from back home. And they will be referring to three “evangelical” preachers. Again, notice my fingers, I’m putting that in quotation marks. Both of them were this year. The first is July the eighth and this is what it says. “A Lusaka based clergyman who in 2012 alone impregnated at least ten women among his followers has finally been divorced by his long-suffering wife. Bishop Emmanuel Chika of the Restoration Deliverance Church was sued by his wife for divorce after his skirt evangelism was published in the media in September 2012. His wife, Alice, decided to end the marriage after seeing for herself the number of children the pastor has sired within the church. And at the local court, the wife also revealed the witchcraft Chika uses.”

The second it was also in the same month in a different part of the country, and I’ll skip a lot because it’s a longer newspaper article, but I just want you to catch something of the flavor. The Chipata Magistrate Court has heard how two clergymen sexually assaulted two women whom they paraded naked in the hills while casting out demons. Their names are mentioned, the first is referred to as a prophet and the second as a pastor. The lady recounts prophet Ngalande toward me, my sister, my sister-in-law to carry a pulpit to his house and then from there it was to write down our prayer requests and then from there taken to the hills for prayers. The following day, April twenty-fifth, they made us lie down with our bodies facing up and asked us to remove our tops. I could go on. The whole thing gets dirty, I’ll spoil your morning if I read the details. Suffice it to say they were sexually abused on those mountains, rather on those hills.

Continued:

How can this be happening so frequently among so-called evangelical churches today, right across Africa? These are two newspaper clippings from the month of July this year. The answer I will give and I hope to prove the point to you this morning, is that it is due to the seismic shift that has taken place in the popular understanding of who a pastor is across a large section of Africa. What we read in the Bible a few minutes ago is not what is in the popular mind back home. The pastor is someone who faithfully studies the Bible, preaches it in its context, applies it in the context of God’s people. No. And what you need to appreciate is that the Charismatic Movement in Africa has evolved further than its American counterpart, especially in its portrayal of the person often referred to as the man of God.

Going back some 30-odd years, this title was very rare. I was already a Christian then. I hardly ever heard a pastor being referred to as such. Today it is the popular phrase. I don’t know how many times a day I’m called “man of God.” Pastors then were seen primarily as preachers and teachers. Their prominence hang on their levels of giftedness in explaining the Word of God. That has largely changed. And one cannot help but recognize why this changed. The initial Pentecostalism that’s visited the shores of Africa did not directly aim to move the Word of God off center stage. I mentioned that two nights ago. Rather what it did was to apparently add the miraculous phenomena of the extra-ordinary gifts without subtracting the original perception. And consequently, I already went through that, you went to such a church and you would hear some effort at exposition. It’s just that after the exposition there would be that extra time for those of you with all kinds of problems to come forward to be prayed for.

However, like the story of the Arabian camel, human fascination for the mysterious has caused one thing to lead to another until preaching in the popular charismatic circles across Africa has lost content and is largely nothing more than motivation of platitudes followed by a lot of shouting and chanting. I think that much, you need to turn to your own television channels with your popular Charismatic preachers and I’ll say, what you’re seeing this, just change the skin color and it could be back home. Apart from, of course, the nice buildings you have here.

But largely that’s what you have. Nice phrases, perhaps a quotation from the Bible here or there, often tortured out of what it’s really saying. And then the height of the preaching is really the preacher looking like he’s now demon-possessed or something. Becoming crazy, if not looking mad.

But often, back home now, what is important is what follows after that. And that’s where the man of God rested out of the context in which we saw Timothy being referred to as such, the man of God then takes on the role only equivalent to that of the village witch doctor. And let me explain. Timothy was being told here, your job is that of preaching, preaching the Word. That which has just been described in the earlier verses as being God-breathed, as being useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. Timothy, major in that.

Well the situation back home is that in fact the work begins after the motivational talk is over. That was but the beginning. And it begins therefore with the laying on of hands as the multitudes begin to come forward, though they hardly even listening to that talk, they were waiting for this person who is reeking with power to do his work. This is often during prolonged church services overnight prayer meetings and all day prayer times on the hills. And when I say on the hills, I hope your mind goes to that newspaper clipping. It’s a regular phenomena. You’re going to the hills and you find the men of God busy praying, at least they claim.

The sad thing is, there is no effort at biblical counseling when people come with their problems, no effort. If a person says, “You know, I’ve been in and out of jobs,” there’s nothing like, “Okay, let’s talk about your work ethics. Are you hard-working or lazy?” When a couple comes forward and says they have serious marital problems, there’s nothing like, “Okay, man, do you love your wife as Christ loved the church? Are you working in that direction?” “Madam, would you say that about your husband? And, madam, do you submit to your husband’s leadership in the home as a church submits to Christ.” And so, does she do that to you? There’s nothing like that. We’re having marital problems, come forward, I’ll pray for you. In fact, often when I’m driving long distances, I try to listen to the radio and every so often you come across one of these pastors and he’s got a radio broadcast with someone else is reading letters to him and he’s responding, you can guess what the answer is going to be almost invariably. And it’s something like this. “We’ve got marriage problems. Blah, blah, blah, so, Man of God, what can you say to that?”

“Madam, come for our open night prayer meeting. This Friday we’ll be having it and we’ll pray for you. You need to be delivered. Next?” “Having problems with conceiving, it’s been years, and so on. Man of God, what’s your answer?” Come for the open-night prayer meeting. You need a breakthrough in that area of your message. Come Friday, we’ll be having it at such-and-such a place.” That’s the panacea for all their ills. “There will be deliverance, come.”

There are no moral questions asked. Rather it’s precisely what the witch doctor in the village does. Two things show the similarities. First of all, it is the claim towards spiritual discernment after a lengthy time of prayer in which the “man of God” seems to have secret dealings with God. God is somehow communicating to him what you have absolutely no knowledge of. And then having as it were heard from God, he then tells you what the problem is. That’s exactly what the witch doctor does. You tell him what your problem is, he goes into a little corner somewhere, goes into some form of trance, moves a few pebbles around and then announces to you that your problem is that your neighbor has managed to get through to your dead uncle and your dead uncle is the one who is now obstructing this pregnancy from taking place. Exactly the same.

But the second especially with respect to healing, is that like the village witch doctor, the African Charismatic preacher sees a conventional medical doctor as a competitor. That’s very much that’s what you might have here. To go to a hospital after being prayed for is a betrayal of trust and a lack of faith. You are undoing what the man of God has done. It’s exactly what the witch doctor does as well. I’ve done this for you, don’t go for the white man’s medicine, otherwise what I have done for you will lose its potency.

Continued:

The result of this is that many people have died of illnesses that can be cured by conventional medicines. Often they go to hospitals when it is too late. I’ve got doctors in my own church and every so often this is the frustration they express. Once upon a time they came too late and when they took off their garments, they found the etchings all over their bodies and they knew why these people came late, it’s because they had been to the witch doctor and he had told them they were cured. Now, especially with city folks, those markings are not on their bodies. But upon being asked, it soon becomes evident, especially when they ask the relatives the reason why this person took so long is because he had been up the mountain with a bishop, a prophet, an apostle so-and-so. And sadly, often it’s too late and the people die.

Now, we must be ready now to answer the question I asked at the beginning of my message. How can this be happening so frequently among so-called “evangelical” churches? That a wife should know that my husband has been sleeping around with girls in the church and she still zipped her mouth. Sits there and listens to him preaching and apparently reeking with power. How can individuals be so ignorant as to follow these pastors into the middle of the bush, up a mountain, alone with them for prayer? Why can’t they pray in that house where they were?

On to repeat it’s the seismic shift in the way the public views and African Charismatic pastor, it has resulted in blind loyalty, especially among the followers. That phrase “man of God” is the equivalent of the phrase “the village witch doctor.” There is some eerie mysteriousness around this individual. Let the village witch doctor, this individual has keys that unlock the mysterious world that enables him to know things in the Spirit world that we lesser mortals know nothing about. Therefore, to oppose such a person, or to expose such a person is to bring a curse upon yourself. And you can’t miss it in the village context when a person comes from visiting a witch doctor. And you say, “Tell me what happened there? Tell me.” You hardly have anything concrete. Because if I say anything here and it makes its way back to that witch doctor, he can put a curse upon my life and say anything. I know nothing.

I never can imagine a context, as I said two days ago, where this book is closed. You’re dealing with ignorance. And consequently when this so-called man of God begins to say and do things that are obviously bordering on the immoral, there’s no premise on which you can blow the offside whistle. And it’s shocking to me, the number of women that finally come to the end of the road, come and when they share this story, you say, “But, madam, when this guy began to do this, when it just begun, didn’t you realize the whole thing was wrong, it was immoral, it was unbiblical?” And the answer is often, “Well, you know, I thought of the man of God he knew what I didn’t know and therefore I trusted him, until it became too much.”

And hence, that newspaper clipping of a pastor’s wife who finally gets tired of the whole thing, with no less than ten women in the church, have children from her husband. That’s in Lusaka the capital city of the whole country of Zambia. This wife had been destroyed for such a long time until finally she said, “Enough is enough.”

Now, brethren, I wish this was just about cults. I wish this was about some traditional African religion. But I’m speaking here about what is fast becoming the face of evangelical Christianity to the outside world. It’s a far cry from what we read in 2 Timothy chapter 3 and chapter 4. Often, these individuals would be flashy in their dressing, like worldly pop music idols, with a feigned American accent. Of course, the African accent is so strong that you can still detect it within that imported accent. I’ve already said their sermons are not worth listening to twice. There is absolutely no exposition of Scripture. There is an observable absence of a display of the unsearchable riches of Christ. Repentance is conspicuous by its absence and there is no effort at working towards the people of God conforming to the image of Christ. It is all about how you can get so much that you are looking for to spoil yourself with.

As I was preparing this, I looked at a few of the statements coming from a number of them and I picked one which represents everything else. “I declare prosperity on your life in Jesus name.” Why should his declaration be more powerful than mine? I might as well be declaring prosperity on my own life in Jesus’ name, why his? He is the man of God. There is power behind his words so when he makes that declaration, something is supposedly happening. Hence the frequent irreverent repetition of “in Jesus’ name…in Jesus’ name…in Jesus’ name…in Jesus’ name…in Jesus’ name.” The way in which the witch doctor in the villages also repeating some canned phrase all over the place. Exactly the same thing.

In reality, nothing is really happening that’s worth talking about. A few years ago because of people knowing my position with respect to all this, I was invited to a live radio broadcast, the second most…in fact, the most popular private radio in the whole country, and the subject was miraculous healing today. The four of us, it was supposed to be the panel: a Roman Catholic priest, two famous Charismatic pastors, and myself. One of the Charismatic pastors, a well-known healer, couldn’t make it. He said he was sick. (Laughter) Well he lied because immediately after the whole broadcast was over, I met him at the shopping mall pushing a trolley full of goods together with his wife, heading out to the car park. But that’s beside the point.

As the interview went on, the Roman Catholic priest was always trying to be on the two sides of the argument, every so often trying to show that yeah, there’s something you said here that makes sense, and something you said that made sense. It was the Charismatic person and myself that basically locked horns. Since it was a live broadcast and people could call in, I made the challenge. I read the passage of Scripture where John the Baptist disciples had inquired of Him whether He was the one and Jesus said, “Go and tell John what you have seen. The dumb talking, the deaf hearing, the lame walking, the blind seeing.” And I said on that broadcast, “If there’s anyone of you who fits this description and you have been healed by any of these, please call. That went on for well over an hour. I became a New Testament Elijah cause I kept taunting (applause). Now remember that this is in a country where literally every weekend churches are having these healings, every weekend. Literally every month you’ve got pastors all over your city from one prophet, another Apostle, this bishop and everything else conducting these healing crusades, to the point where you…you just want to tear them off the walls or trees because it’s overwhelming. And all of them claiming these things are happening.

Over one solid hour of waiting and discussing, and with me repeating that invitation, two phone calls came through. One was a gentleman who said that eight years ago he took a neighbor’s daughter whose legs were not quite equal to this faith healer and the legs became equal after praying for her. And I remember saying, “Eight years ago?” And he would say yes. I said, “Eight years ago,” he’s not appreciating my point. I mean, first of all, I questioned the issue of short and long legs, but that’s not the point. But if it’s happening every weekend, that testimony must be stale. Eight years ago?

Concluded:

The second caller was a lady, clearly agitated, encouraging the man of God not to listen to me because I am a dead theologian. But what does it got to do with me? I’m asking for testimonies. Those were the only two calls that pretended to have anything in support of this in a whole nation of over ten million people…with healing crusades every weekend.

Well the gentlemen who was doing the interview finally turned to the pastor on the other side and said, “Well, you know, we sort of waited for a while, nobody is calling in.” This was his answer. “I think they are shy.”

The poor soul, he had a stroke not too long after that, he was in a coma for a while, at least for about a week until he finally died. Why didn’t his fellow faith-healers rush in there and raise him from that bed? It’s because they knew it was fraud, it was a lie. (Applause)

One more point and I must hurry on. In Zambia we have an organization by statutory instrument that looks after the wellbeing of the handicapped and physical challenged. It’s called Zambian Council of the Handicapped. When this phenomena because too much, they made a public statement to this effect. “Those of you who are blind or crippled or deaf, dumb, stop going to these meetings that are claiming that they are healings because according to our records, there’s not been a single individual who has been healed from those meetings.”

Now if there were to be an organization, surely that ought to have independent verifiable information, it’s them. But here are charlatans, half-converted cowboys going all over the place drawing in crowds in the name of doing the miraculous when they know deep down their souls nothing like that is really happening. They claim to have gifts they don’t have. What is that but fraud, iniquity, wickedness, sin? That’s why it is. They have not only abandoned the work they were told to do, they are claiming to do what they’re in fact not doing. Simply to draw the crowds and get their money.

Let me hurry on to close. First of all, an apparent apology. I know I’ve spoiled your morning. This is not the kind of message you want to listen to with a cup of coffee in one hand and a doughnut in the other. I wish I could be more positive. I wish I could say that this is something that happened here and there once in a while, or as I said earlier on that it’s in some extreme fringe corner of Christendom. Yet I want to repeat that this is a growing phenomena back home. It is fast becoming the face of evangelical Christianity to the outside world, the modern-day successful “evangelical pastor,” I put that in quotation marks again, is simply a witch doctor who is apparently using cleaner and perhaps more potent power to bring about deliverance, bring about healing, bring about breakthroughs in the lives of the people. That’s the concept.

Now in the light of what we read in 2 Timothy, what concerns me is the silence, the silence in addressing this matter, in locking horns with it. I’ve done a blog post on this, I think it’s entitled something like, “Our criminal evangelical silence.” Simply because when I was writing it down, it bothered me. If you were to look at the membership list of the evangelical fellowship of Zambia, ninety percent of the membership are these same ministries. I saw the list myself. I know what I’m talking about.

So what’s my appeal? First of all, if you ever do come across to Zambia or to Africa, generally, emphasize 2 Timothy 3:16 to chapter 4 verse 2. Call the pastors back to what their work is, (Applause) What sets me apart from my congregation is not that I have some backdoor entry into God’s presence that bypasses the ancestral spirits and demons and I can therefore bring the blessings to you. No. There, there is the priesthood of all believers. It is the fact that I have gifts and a calling that enables me to preach this Word to you. (Applause)

Secondly, pray and keep on praying for those who are fulfilling 2 Timothy chapter 4 verse one and two. Pray for them that they might be faithful and that they might increase in number so that this tide may be stemmed by the Word of God itself bringing to light into the darkness. Pray for us, if I may dare include myself there.

And then thirdly, provide truth, especially through books, that clarifies the issue, that clearly sounds the warning, that when you open the door slightly to so-called extra-ordinary revelatory gifts in Africa, without the benefit that was there in Bible times which was the presence and regulation of the Apostles themselves, this is where you land. It’s a matter of time because I want to repeat this is not just some grouping that’s on its way out there, full of mad guys, this is an entire spectrum. It’s a continuum, different shades but following each other, or like the mice listening to the Pied Piper, continuing and continuing. Now those who are clever somehow are able to stop somewhere along the way and just remain open to the possibilities of these things, but the common guys who are just remaining open. He is putting into practice the full implications of things. And the next, and the next, and the next and before you know it, it’s the Arabian camel story. The Bible is there for just a few platitudes, a few favorite verses, rather than regular, full-orbed, Christ-centered exposition. I’m saying, let’s continue providing the truth so that God’s people can know how rich this book is, that it teaches us the whole counsel of God, that it is adequate for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness. There were seeds all coming from there.

And then lastly, support the training and the work of true preachers and the planting of churches. These lampstands, churches that represent New Testament Christianity. Support them whichever way you can. Africa needs your partnership. Let’s pray.

Our Father in heaven, these are sad and sobering realities, yet they only point to the fact that the archenemy of God is real and where the light of Your Word is not shining forth in the brilliance of the noonday sun, darkness soon takes over. For the sake of Your church, O God, visit our continent, for the sake of Your church, O God, salvage the situation. For the sake of Your church, O God, call the clarion call to be heard from south to north and east to west until those who are servants of the evil one clothed in sheepskin may be seen for who they are. O God, visit us, we pray, in Jesus’ name. Amen.

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/TM13-13/are-we-preachers-or-witch-doctors-conrad-mbewe

Reading Conrad's debate with the charismatic preacher, my mind went to Joagbaje's ill fated challenge on SirJohn. That singular action has put Joabaje off nl, maybe forever.

There is really no point using God's name to reap people off. Vooks accusses cessationists of seeing no real gifts manifested. Truth is that the Charismatics do not also. Why? Because these things happen by God's sovereignty and the much he allows are witnessed by all of God’s people, whether they are charismatic or not.

Jehovah's witnesses are no cult.

The term “cult” means different things to different people. However, consider two common perceptions regarding cults and why those perceptions don’t apply to us.

Some think of a cult as being a new or unorthodox religion. Jehovah’s Witnesses have not invented a new religion. On the contrary, we pattern our worship after that of the first-century Christians, whose example and teachings were recorded in the Bible. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) We believe that the Holy Scriptures should be the authority on what is orthodox in matters of worship.

Some think of a cult as being a dangerous religious sect with a human leader. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not look to any human as their leader. Rather, we adhere to the standard that Jesus set for his followers when he stated: “Your Leader is one, the Christ.”—Matthew 23:10.

Far from being a dangerous cult, Jehovah’s Witnesses practice a religion that benefits its members and others in the community. For example, our ministry has helped many people to overcome harmful addictions, such as the abuse of drugs and alcohol. In addition, we conduct literacy classes around the world, helping thousands learn to read and write. And we are actively involved in disaster relief. We work hard to have a positive impact on others, just as Jesus commanded his followers to do.—Matthew 5:13-16.

WinsomeX:
Reading Conrad's debate with the charismatic preacher, my mind went to Joagbaje's ill fated challenge on SirJohn. That singular action has put Joabaje off nl, maybe forever.

There is really no point using God's name to reap people off. Vooks accusses cessationists of seeing no real gifts manifested. Truth is that the Charismatics do not also. Why? Because these things happen by God's sovereignty and the much he allows are witnessed by all of God’s people, whether they are charismatic or not.

Any sincere christian can hardly fault Conrad's narrative of events in our part of the world... It can be so depressing atimes especially when you see supposedly sane people like mba emeka, Gombs, bidam, image123, NLmediator and vooks support the pervasive cause of our local charlatans. Jo agbaje and his likes are lethal criminals that deserve the wrath of our government, but as it is they will continue the deceit of millions of people until the nation finally wake up to its God given responsibilities on an issue that should be seen in the same light as they see physical terror by Islamic rebels/terrorist.

JMAN05:
Jehovah's witnesses are no cult.

The term “cult” means different things to different people. However, consider two common perceptions regarding cults and why those perceptions don’t apply to us.

Some think of a cult as being a new or unorthodox religion. Jehovah’s Witnesses have not invented a new religion. On the contrary, we pattern our worship after that of the first-century Christians, whose example and teachings were recorded in the Bible. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) We believe that the Holy Scriptures should be the authority on what is orthodox in matters of worship.

Some think of a cult as being a dangerous religious sect with a human leader. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not look to any human as their leader. Rather, we adhere to the standard that Jesus set for his followers when he stated: “Your Leader is one, the Christ.”—Matthew 23:10.

Far from being a dangerous cult, Jehovah’s Witnesses practice a religion that benefits its members and others in the community. For example, our ministry has helped many people to overcome harmful addictions, such as the abuse of drugs and alcohol. In addition, we conduct literacy classes around the world, helping thousands learn to read and write. And we are actively involved in disaster relief. We work hard to have a positive impact on others, just as Jesus commanded his followers to do.—Matthew 5:13-16.

I think the statement that Jehovah witness are cults was reflected by one of the presenters. Most evangelicals share the same belief. I don't. I disagree with JW on many points of doctrine but I don't think they are cults. I appreciate your point of correction stated here and save for a few who are free to dispute it, it is noted.

Summary of Conrad Mbewe's Are We Preachers or Witchdoctors?"

1. The concept of preachers and witchdoctors being synonyms may be foreign to the Western church but Africans can understand it.
2. In 2Tim 3:16, Paul lays out these exhortation that the bible is an all sufficient resource for the Christian minister. He exhorts him to preach the word in season and out of season.
3. Two newspaper clippings show an incidence where two pastors rape ladies they were meant to be praying for on the mountains. Another describes how a famous bishop had impregnated a number of girls in his church and his wife was finally filing for divorce.
4. These things happen bc the African minister is gradually evolving to a witchdoctor. Rather than faithfully expound the bible, he dabbles into metaphysical things all in the bid to solve people's problem - what witchdoctors were meant to do in the original traditional context.
5. The original Pentecostals still gave some place to preaching but today, human fascination with mysticism and the quest to solve the perennial problem inherent in the African continent, has made preaching to be reduced to just shouts and chants.
6. Unlike Timothy who is instructed to preach the Word, the African minister's major preoccupation is solving problems: poverty, sickness, barrenness, marital issues, advanced single ladies, etc. No effort is made at counselling. Every problem is seen as having a demonic origin - the very manner the witchdoctor handles problems.
7. Like the witchdoctor, the minister also sees the conventional medical doctor as a competitor. So that sick folks who have been prayed for are discouraged from using drugs - a show of lack of faith. The result being many avoidable death occurring.
8. This is happening because the phrase "Man of God" have come to carry the same aura of mysteriousness, fear and reverence that people used to have for the village witchdoctor. The root of "touch not my anointed" phraseologies, etc.
9. It is also the consequence of a closed bible. A people that know nothing become prey to the minister manipulating biblical text for personal gain and self aggrandizement. It is the reason why scandals of large proportions are unending in these churches.
10. The misfortune about all these is that these are fast becoming the face of evangelical Christianity in Africa. It is a far cry from what Paul enjoined on Timothy in 2 Tim 3:16.
11. A recent radio chat revealed that despite claims to healing programs week in, week out, no healing has been verified among the countless claims. Prompting a recognized national association to inform the public not to patronize these men as they have been proven to be charlatans.

12. A final appeal:

A. As a minister, follow Paul's injunction: preach the word.
B. Pray for all faithful ministers to continue to preach the bible only and not deviate for the purpose of gain.
C. Provide biblical truths in books that clarify issues.
D. Support the African church. Especially those committed to sound doctrine.

Winsomex,
Ever heard of blackspots?
Sections of roads that are accident prone?
I have heard how demons cause accidents and through ancient shrines near or on the roads, they make blackspots.

So a senior government leader passed by a human roadkill at a black spot and he ordered that bumps be erected. The place was a junction. There has not been any accident let alone fatality in the last one year. Got me thinking whether demons can be cast out by bumps better than anointing oil.

The point is, the tendency to see demons behind ANY problem/disease is endemic in Africa,and to this extent I agree with Mbewe. This spiritualizing has one major effect; reducing believers into mere bystanders in life instead of attempting to solve the problem.

But is this really a preacher's fault or the African's?

vooks:

But is this really a preacher's fault or the African's?

I think it is the preacher's fault. The fault cannot be placed on the African because every people have their culture. Though Western culture has been greatly influenced by Christianity, there was a time it was not so. When Christianity comes into a people's culture, it is the duty of the minister to preach the Word and not to marry the Word with the people's culture. The preacher must educate on the beneficials in each culture without compromising gospel truth

The interesting thing about the gospel is that it doesn't deny people their cultural practices, except of course those in opposition to biblical truths. Christianity preaches Christ. When Jesus enters a culture, he refines it.

So the minister should preach the Word. Get a people to know God and live out gospel truths. In addition, they can keep their culture. Some cultural practices in my tribe I still cherish are:

1. Family, extended family ties. Taking of the elderly.
2. Respect. Deferring to people older than you even by a few months. Not calking your seniors by name directly.
3. Marriage: wife's utmost respect for husbands. Divorce seen as taboo.

And so on.

There is no universally accepted definition of cults. But there are some characteristics that firmly put JWS in that category;
1. Authority/source of doctrine- they are derived from one institution called Watchtower Society WITHOUT exception. This is what you call 'faithful and discreet servant'. If you doubt this, you may want to show me some things you discovered on your own without resorting to Watchtower literature,or any belief that you hold that contradicts Watchtower

2. Exclusivity- JWS believe EVERYONE outside them are apostates and salvation is ONLY found in submitting to this Society


Cc
PaulGrundy

JMAN05:
Jehovah's witnesses are no cult.

The term “cult” means different things to different people. However, consider two common perceptions regarding cults and why those perceptions don’t apply to us.

Some think of a cult as being a new or unorthodox religion. Jehovah’s Witnesses have not invented a new religion. On the contrary, we pattern our worship after that of the first-century Christians, whose example and teachings were recorded in the Bible. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) We believe that the Holy Scriptures should be the authority on what is orthodox in matters of worship.

Some think of a cult as being a dangerous religious sect with a human leader. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not look to any human as their leader. Rather, we adhere to the standard that Jesus set for his followers when he stated: “Your Leader is one, the Christ.”—Matthew 23:10.

Far from being a dangerous cult, Jehovah’s Witnesses practice a religion that benefits its members and others in the community. For example, our ministry has helped many people to overcome harmful addictions, such as the abuse of drugs and alcohol. In addition, we conduct literacy classes around the world, helping thousands learn to read and write. And we are actively involved in disaster relief. We work hard to have a positive impact on others, just as Jesus commanded his followers to do.—Matthew 5:13-16.

Am not rooting for African spiritism or anything, just saying it is dishonest to blame the pentecostal minister.

The negro lives in a hard environment full of poverty,ignorance/minimal education and illiteracy and these are the true causes of his mindset.

Ministers fornicating has nothing to do with witchcraft or Africa

Ministers competing with medical science, that is exaggeration. Fringe sects that shun medical science are not unique to Africa.

Am trying to imagine how an American who has never been to Africa will view Christians in Africa after listening to this man. This guy is exaggerating

WinsomeX:


I think it is the preacher's fault. The fault cannot be placed on the African because every people have their culture. Though Western culture has been greatly influenced by Christianity, there was a time it was not so. When Christianity comes into a people's culture, it is the duty of the minister to preach the Word and not to marry the Word with the people's culture. The preacher must educate on the beneficials in each culture without compromising gospel truth

The interesting thing about the gospel is that it doesn't deny people their cultural practices, except of course those in opposition to biblical truths. Christianity preaches Christ. When Jesus enters a culture, he refines it.

So the minister should preach the Word. Get a people to know God and live out gospel truths. In addition, they can keep their culture. Some cultural practices in my tribe I still cherish are:

1. Family, extended family ties. Taking of the elderly.
2. Respect. Deferring to people older than you even by a few months. Not calking your seniors by name directly.
3. Marriage: wife's utmost respect for husbands. Divorce seen as taboo.

And so on.

vooks:
Am not rooting for African spiritism or anything, just saying it is dishonest to blame the pentecostal minister.

The negro lives in a hard environment full of poverty,ignorance/minimal education and illiteracy and these are the true causes of his mindset.

Ministers fornicating has nothing to do with witchcraft or Africa

Ministers competing with medical science, that is exaggeration. Fringe sects that shun medical science are not unique to Africa.
Am trying to imagine how an American who has never been to Africa will view Christians in Africa after listening to this man.
This guy is exaggerating

vooks, as WinsomeX said, it is a cultural or traditional thing

What is culture?
- Culture is the ideas, customs and social behaviour of a particular people or society

What is tradition?
Tradition is the pratising or exercising of passed down inherited, established or customary pattern of thought action or behavior

It is because of our culture and tradition that a Chris Rock performance in Lagos, Abuja or Port Harcourt isn't feasible, like it is with the London, New York and Johannesburg comedy tour visits
The culture and tradition of the Naija comedy industry is that stand-up comics do their jokes in pidgin english
- Chris Rock wouldn't find this a possible and/or practical thing to easily or conveniently do

The following are some of what are classified as witch doctors: N'anga, Sangoma, Babalawo, Obeah etcetera

In Zimbabwe N'angas are consulted by the people for advice and healing of many illnesses

In South Africa, Sangomas perform a divination by reading the bones after being thrown

In Nigeria, Babaaláwos or Babalawos means father of secret knowledge or divination

In Jamaica and the Caribbean, Obeah is synonymous with predicting the future and manufacturing charms

The western world or an American who has never been to Africa or the other sides of those world would be familiar with
clairvoyants, fortune tellers, palm reader, psychic etcetera

The Princess Dianas, the Michael Jacksons and others of that world often visited psychics and not necessarily African witch doctors
but a parallel and similarity can be drawn between them and their modus operandi

So I don't think Conrad was exaggerating but merely was honestly sharing the transformation of pastors from an African perspective with an American audience

PS: Sorry had to rush posting this
PS: Big up to David Oyelowo playing the role of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in the movie Selma.
Oprah Winfrey and Cuba Gooding Jr. featured in it too
Loved David Oyelowo's performance in the film's trailer, love to watch the film come January 9

vooks:
There is no universally accepted definition of cults. But there are some characteristics that firmly put JWS in that category;
1. Authority/source of doctrine- they are derived from one institution called Watchtower Society WITHOUT exception. This is what you call 'faithful and discreet servant'. If you doubt this, you may want to show me some things you discovered on your own without resorting to Watchtower literature,or any belief that you hold that contradicts Watchtower

First, the Slave is not the same as the Watchtower society.

Second, the Faithful and Discreet Slave is not made up of a single human.

Third, not what I call, but what the Bible calls Faithful and discreet Slave. Matt 24:45

I searched for the true religion on my own, I found it among JWs, and what I believed now, I found it on my own, though most of it were with the help of the witnesses.

But I want to mention Trinity. Even while in he church, I never believed that rubbish. In short when I call trinity in the church, I never knew that that was what it meant, so it means I never even believed it while there.

I say these 'cos some of the points I use in defending my belief in this forum are not all from our publications, many are from my personal research. I read my bible everyday, consult commentaries, bible dictionaries, and enclopedias. Though the Slave open my eye to some truths, they don't determine for me what I believe. However, I am yet to see a group who love truth and stick to the scriptures like the witnesses.

And your mistake is that; You think that you must accept all that is taught by the Slave as far as it was the Slave that said it. That is falsehood. You have to prove that teaching to yourself. You don't just swallow them. Gullibility is never encouraged, you have to check whether it is true. If after studying it, and you don't accept it, keep it to yourself and be patient. So, all what I believe now, I found it myself, though many is with there help.

Now, from your reasoning above, The doctrine of early Christians issue from the apostles and the older men in Jerusalem. What do you call them? Cult?

JWs do not have a human leader.

2. Exclusivity- JWS believe EVERYONE outside them are apostates and salvation is ONLY found in submitting to this Society

That there must be only one true Christian organization is a truth from the scriptures. Eph 4:4, 5

Salvation is only found in submitting to this Society is false.