Ubenedictus:
what contradiction are you talking about, abi ur bible doesn't say all generation will call her blessed?



is that not the same as obedience to d word of God, aren't d fruit of the spirit in line with the word of God?


Or you think u will disobey the word of God and still end up in heaven?
you have been misinformed. First and foremost mary is not call Co redemptorist in the sense dat she redeemed d world "with" Jesus, catholicism doesn't teach dat. Instead we teach that she is co redeemptrix becos she participated in our redemption "under" Jesus by giving birth to d redeemer.

repentance is also emphasized in those messages, but u didn't see that probably becos u are baised.


"blessed is he who hears d word of God and kip it"?

Go to ur bible and chk out d fruit of the spirit...lol

And also thhere isn't anytn like co-redeemer anywher in my bible...hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha


Me? Misinformed? Can the holy spirit lie?

I read my bible and get fresh revelation my friend I don't read bulletin, and follow man made dogma...thank u.

Also I would be very greatful if u cn clearly point out me where it Wass stated dt mary is a co redeemer..

If being a co redeemer is by participation whhat about Joseph dt play d "earthly" father? Wt about john the baptist? Wt abt the owner of the menger and the women that probably helped mary wen she was in labour?......hhahahahahahahahahahah

You go and confesss to ur priest when u sin on Saturdays, what about when your priest sins... what about when ur pope sins..who does he confess to??

I have a million unbiblical practise that I can point out to u.. but ur surname isn't catholic church so I wuldnt, unless u tell me u re capable

tonybosses:


Go to ur bible and chk out d fruit of the spirit...lol

And also thhere isn't anytn like co-redeemer anywher in my bible...hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha


Me? Misinformed? Can the holy spirit lie?

I read my bible and get fresh revelation my friend I don't read bulletin, and follow man made dogma...thank u.

Also I would be very greatful if u cn clearly point out me where it Wass stated dt mary is a co redeemer..

If being a co redeemer is by participation whhat about Joseph dt play d "earthly" father? Wt about john the baptist? Wt abt the owner of the menger and the women that probably helped mary wen she was in labour?......hhahahahahahahahahahah

You go and confesss to ur priest when u sin on Saturdays, what about when your priest sins... what about when ur pope sins..who does he confess to??

I have a million unbiblical practise that I can point out to u.. but ur surname isn't catholic church so I wuldnt, unless u tell me u re capable

I'll like to point out that popes and Priests are sinners like you and I.They confess to other priests regularly. Jesus bestowed the holy order gifts regardless of the priests personal sins, you only need to look back at Peter.
It'll good if you raise these so called unbiblical practises . you'll find that all your misconceptions have been addressed on this site or elsewhere.
BTW, Mary as co redeemer is not officially defined as dogma in the church,however @Ubenedictus has explained its use.

btoks:
I'll like to point out that popes and Priests are sinners like you and I.They confess to other priests regularly. Jesus bestowed the holy order gifts regardless of the priests personal sins, you only need to look back at Peter.
It'll good if you raise these so called unbiblical practises . you'll find that all your misconceptions have been addressed on this site or elsewhere.
BTW, Mary as co redeemer is not officially defined as dogma in the church,however @Ubenedictus has explained its use.

Ok sir... who do ur pope confess to? oh you trying to tell me now that until the church or vatican proclaims mary as a co redeemer she isn't or they haven't decided yet

According to ur definition who is a saint?
Mind u... I need biblical backing.

And also no where in d bible or in history or any text has it been clearly stated that peter is the first pope ( apart from those written in and by the catholic order)

Also do u bliv that on the last day, our deciding fate as to Weda we wuld Mk heaven or nt isn't in anyway tied to praying the rosary or bow nd kneeling at grotto or kissing her statue?

First i hope you are aware that you are deviating the thread.

tonybosses:

Go to ur bible and chk out d fruit of the spirit...lol

And also thhere isn't anytn like co-redeemer anywher in my bible...hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha


Me? Misinformed? Can the holy spirit lie?

I read my bible and get fresh revelation my friend I don't read bulletin, and follow man made dogma...thank u.

Also I would be very greatful if u cn clearly point out me where it Wass stated dt mary is a co redeemer..

If being a co redeemer is by participation whhat about Joseph dt play d "earthly" father? Wt about john the baptist? Wt abt the owner of the menger and the women that probably helped mary wen she was in labour?......hhahahahahahahahahahah

You go and confesss to ur priest when u sin on Saturdays, what about when your priest sins... what about when ur pope sins..who does he confess to??

I have a million unbiblical practise that I can point out to u.. but ur surname isn't catholic church so I wuldnt, unless u tell me u re capable

hehehe, i know d gifts of d holyspirit off hand i dont need to go get my bible.


Since you somehow seem to be unaware of scriptures that show that we co operate with God. So i'll give you an assignment, get ur bible and search where s paul says we are coworkers with God.

Ubenedictus:
First i hope you are aware that you are deviating the thread.

hehehe, i know d gifts of d holyspirit off hand i dont need to go get my bible.


Since you somehow seem to be unaware of scriptures that show that we co operate with God. So i'll give you an assignment, get ur bible and search where s paul says we are coworkers with God.

Lol... I already do.....sir

You can jump in and out of churches,nobody cares!

tonybosses:
Mr bene.... u av spoken well, let's gt done with one part u said sumtn abt "save"

My bible told me dt "wt d mouth confession is made unto salvation"

Dt aside.. nw abt Jesuss avin mother or nt

Or God avin mother.

My brother, it's very very clear in d bible.. Mary was an "instrument" tru which Jesus came to earth... mind u it wasn't as tho, he couldn't av descended frm d sky or happend to b in midst of men.. preaching nd nobodi wuld knw wher e came frm.... bt d nature of tinz nd faith of men wuldnt be influenced at such. at dt point in time.

So in his widow he came tru mary...

Mary was created by God nd mary gave birth to the same "God" while on earth..

Nw we re looking at "God in 2 perspective"

1) as "God on earth"
2) as "God supernatural"

In case (1) mary gave birth to Jesus, she was the instrument tru which he came in full flesh as man

But dt can't nd shldnt b linked to d origin of God in case (2) as supernatural and creator of all frm time immemorial.
because long tym b4 mary was, God has been.

And dt isn't a reason we shld worship (honour) mary, I knw dts where u re driving at....

I was a catholic, I got into the seminary nd got out,i can ask 100 question dt u might not b able to answer.

Ubenedictus:
This is a very important question. How are we saved.

I was scrolling through nairaland religious section this morning and I came across the statement, "God Has/Had No Mother". That is a heavy blanket statement and make no mistake it isn't a scarce statement in the religious forum, infact if you type that word into the search engine you will come out with over 10 hits.

So I decided to discuss this very important matter, one of the most important parts of Christian teaching is the incarnation. It simply says that, man sinned against God and became a slave to the devil and no man could rescue himself from this bondage of sin so God himself had to come in with a human nature to put an end to sin and win our redemption and salvation.

Infact it is a basic part of the christian faith that God took human nature and became man, it is important because no other human being can do it for scripture say "no man can pay his own ransom".

So God himself became man and was born of a woman, Jesus Christ the Word incarnate had a mother. He took human form and was born as all men are and because he was in human nature he could walk with us, talk with us, eat and drink with us, even floged some of us, taught us, and more importantly suffered and died for us and is now ressurrected. If God has no mother that means God was not born, he wasn't even human and could die for you, that means he didn't save you, if God has no mother that means God didn't take human nature and your salvation is nonesense.

If God had no mother that there is no redemption, no salvation and no grace, if God have no mother then all Christians are wasting their time because they believe in an illusion.

If Christ had no mother then the Word of God didn't take flesh, he thus couldn't die, couldn't really eat and wasn't ressurrected so your faith is useless. Without the incarnation there is no redemption or salvation.

So I wish to ask my protestant, penticostal and evangelical brethren, If God didn't have a mother and hence didn't take flesh, how are you saved?

The bible clearly say "you will concieve in your womb and bear a son and you shall name him Jesus", that same bible tells us that Jesus is the Word of God and that "in the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and Word was God".

So I ask again if God didnt take flesh in mary's womb and was born by her (thus by definition his mother) so he will save you and I, if that didn't happen, how then were you saved?


I await matured answers.

Good afternoon. My understanding of the Protestant reluctance to fully embrace the Incarnation (this includes Mary being Mother of God) stems from one of their biggest heresies-iconoclasm. God by becoming Man became a visible image. The defence of images(icons, statues) is a defence of the incarnation. Interestingly the iconoclastic heresy emerges in the Byzantine Church in the 8th century as a result of the Islamic incursions on the Eastern Church. I'm sure we all know the iconoclasm of Islam. Thank God this dangerous heresy was defeated at the Ecumenical Council Nicaea II. Amen

tonybosses:


Ok sir... who do ur pope confess to? oh you trying to tell me now that until the church or vatican proclaims mary as a co redeemer she isn't or they haven't decided yet

According to ur definition who is a saint?
Mind u... I need biblical backing.

And also no where in d bible or in history or any text has it been clearly stated that peter is the first pope ( apart from those written in and by the catholic order)

Also do u bliv that on the last day, our deciding fate as to Weda we wuld Mk heaven or nt isn't in anyway tied to praying the rosary or bow nd kneeling at grotto or kissing her statue?

Abou the co-redeemer issue...are you aware that St Paul calls himself co-redeemer 1 Corinthians 3:9? Can you please condemn St Paul? And are you aware that the Latin prefix Co does not mean equal?

@uben,
I am getting to this thread late. But I am willing to be a participant.
From the little I can gather, u seem to be saying dt if we do not acknowledge Mary we cannot be saved, right?
Now let us look critically at this matter. Mary carried Jesus (who himself is God) and bore him, yet Jesus declared dt no man (or person) or person born of a woman was greater than John d baptist (Mary inclusive).
Jesus continually refused to venerate her evn when ppl (obviously like u) did, instead he kept directing such honour to those who obeyed God.
Another point is dt since we now have the Holy Spirit (who himself os God) does every spirit filled child of God deserve the same unconditional veneration dt the catholic church accords Mary (to extent of bowing to idols in her image)?

Papist:

Good afternoon. My understanding of the Protestant reluctance to fully embrace the Incarnation (this includes Mary being Mother of God) stems from one of their biggest heresies-iconoclasm. God by becoming Man became a visible image. The defence of images(icons, statues) is a defence of the incarnation. Interestingly the iconoclastic heresy emerges in the Byzantine Church in the 8th century as a result of the Islamic incursions on the Eastern Church. I'm sure we all know the iconoclasm of Islam. Thank God this dangerous heresy was defeated at the Ecumenical Council Nicaea II. Amen

And all of us dt Christ dwells in become what?
Do u want to extend the topic to d defence of icons and bowing down to statues?

Bobbysworld28:

And all of us dt Christ dwells in become what?
Do u want to extend the topic to d defence of icons and bowing down to statues?

Yes the defence of icons and *bowing to statues* is closely linked to a good understanding of the incarnation which sadly you as a Protestant does not have. Your heresy (iconoclasm) was defeated at Nicaea II about 700 years before Protestantism. This heresy which you ignorantly embrace came from the founder of Islam Muhammad!!! Go to the Roman catacombs or google them and be astounded that iconoclasm is a modern heresy. Religious art has a long history from the very beginnings of Christianity.

Papist:

Yes the defence of icons and *bowing to statues* is closely linked to a good understanding of the incarnation which sadly you as a Protestant does not have. Your heresy (iconoclasm) was defeated at Nicaea II about 700 years before Protestantism. This heresy which you ignorantly embrace came from the founder of Islam Muhammad!!! Go to the Roman catacombs or google them and be astounded that iconoclasm is a modern heresy. Religious art has a long history from the very beginnings of Christianity.

If refusing to use images is a modern 'heresy', I wonder y Jesus never did it, his apostles never used it and none of them ever instructed u to. Guess y? It is out of place with the new covenant Jesus brought. We are CHRISTIANS and dt means Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (not a set of men teleguided to endorse idolatry at whatever time in history).
Even 1John 5:21 commands you to keep urself from idols. So y exactly will dt endorsement matter to me? U hv been instructed!

Papist:

Good afternoon. My understanding of the Protestant reluctance to fully embrace the Incarnation (this includes Mary being Mother of God) stems from one of their biggest heresies-iconoclasm. God by becoming Man became a visible image. The defence of images(icons, statues) is a defence of the incarnation. Interestingly the iconoclastic heresy emerges in the Byzantine Church in the 8th century as a result of the Islamic incursions on the Eastern Church. I'm sure we all know the iconoclasm of Islam. Thank God this dangerous heresy was defeated at the Ecumenical Council Nicaea II. Amen

my dear friend i believe iconoclasm plays a part, but i think it isn't all. They seem to be scared of identifyin with the humanity of Christ, they are scared of him havin a mother. They do not believe in a cooperation of man and the divine.

Bobbysworld28:
@uben,
I am getting to this thread late. But I am willing to be a participant.
From the little I can gather, u seem to be saying dt if we do not acknowledge Mary we cannot be saved, right?
Now let us look critically at this matter. Mary carried Jesus (who himself is God) and bore him, yet Jesus declared dt no man (or person) or person born of a woman was greater than John d baptist (Mary inclusive).
Jesus continually refused to venerate her evn when ppl (obviously like u) did, instead he kept directing such honour to those who obeyed God.
Another point is dt since we now have the Holy Spirit (who himself os God) does every spirit filled child of God deserve the same unconditional veneration dt the catholic church accords Mary (to extent of bowing to idols in her image)?

interestinly this is for now besides the point.

The point is that if you do not believe that Jesus Christ came as man to die for us, and to do so was born of a woman thus he had a mother then ur faith is worthless.

If Jesus had no mother then he couldn't die for you, only humans die! If Jesus has no mother then he didn't have a fully human body, didn't die nor resurrect.

The first basis for salvation is the the Word was made flesh and born of a woman. If your Jesus wasn't born of a woman, he has no human body, he thus can't save you.

A person who denies the incarnation of Jesus make the redemption of Christ worthless.

That is the point!

Bobbysworld28:

If refusing to use images is a modern 'heresy', I wonder y Jesus never did it, his apostles never used it and none of them ever instructed u to. Guess y? It is out of place with the new covenant Jesus brought. We are CHRISTIANS and dt means Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (not a set of men teleguided to endorse idolatry at whatever time in history).
Even 1John 5:21 commands you to keep urself from idols. So y exactly will dt endorsement matter to me? U hv been instructed!

make no mistake, Jesus used images, the temple where he was circumcise and where he worshipped had images, the temple where the apostles worshiped even after penticost had images in it.

They all used religious images and the christian after them continued the practice when Christian started the have place of worship.

The bible say keep away from idols, it didn't say keep away from all images. Note the difference.

Ubenedictus:


interestinly this is for now besides the point.

The point is that if you do not believe that Jesus Christ came as man to die for us, and to do so was born of a woman thus he had a mother then ur faith is worthless.

If Jesus had no mother then he couldn't die for you, only humans die! If Jesus has no mother then he didn't have a fully human body, didn't die nor resurrect.

The first basis for salvation is the the Word was made flesh and born of a woman. If your Jesus wasn't born of a woman, he has no human body, he thus can't save you.

A person who denies the incarnation of Jesus make the redemption of Christ worthless.

That is the point!

Wow!
Ur point is upside down. It must be a figment of ur active imagination.
Every Christian believes Jesus came as a man (i.e. Born of a woman). Where u guys get it wrong is dt u make an idol out of her. Hence my question, since we now carry the Holy Spirit in us (as Mary carried Jesus), will now venerate spirit filled children of God? Or is the Holy Spirit no longer God?

Ubenedictus:


make no mistake, Jesus used images, the temple where he was circumcise and where he worshipped had images, the temple where the apostles worshiped even after penticost had images in it.

They all used religious images and the christian after them continued the practice when Christian started the have place of worship.

The bible say keep away from idols, it didn't say keep away from all images. Note the difference.

SEE THIS GUY!!!!
So the temple where Jesus was baptised had images, therefore Jesus used images! I really used to think u were smarter than this o.
I hope u know dt an image is just an image until u idolise it, hence d admonition. This shows u dt some ppl were trying to smuggle falsehood into christianity.
So whenever u want to pray and instead of addressing your prayer to God, u address Mary, an image of Mary, an angel, an image of Jesus and any other image have u succeeded in idolising that image? Yes, u have!
Fyi, anything dt takes the place of God in ur life is an idol unto u, so I admonish u once again to keep away from idols.
Like Jesus said, the Father seeketh those who would worship Him (not anyone or anything else) in spirit and in truth

Ubenedictus:


make no mistake, Jesus used images, the temple where he was circumcise and where he worshipped had images, the temple where the apostles worshiped even after penticost had images in it.

They all used religious images and the christian after them continued the practice when Christian started the have place of worship.

The bible say keep away from idols, it didn't say keep away from all images. Note the difference.

For example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. Man commits idolatry whenever he honours and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods, or demons (for example satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money etc."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry

Bobbysworld28:

Wow!
Ur point is upside down. It must be a figment of ur active imagination.
Every Christian believes Jesus came as a man (i.e. Born of a woman). Where u guys get it wrong is dt u make an idol out of her. Hence my question, since we now carry the Holy Spirit in us (as Mary carried Jesus), will now venerate spirit filled children of God? Or is the Holy Spirit no longer God?

the first issue i raised was the assertion raised by some brethren here on nl who claimed The Divine had no mother, you can read d op again.

I hope you are aware that d word "venerate" simply means profound respect?. First no catholic believe mary is an idol! And i venerate ie have profound respect for all Christians who are truly temples of the holy spirit.

Ubenedictus:


the first issue i raised was the assertion raised by some brethren here on nl who claimed The Divine had no mother, you can read d op again.

I hope you are aware that d word "venerate" simply means profound respect?. First no catholic believe mary is an idol! And i venerate ie have profound respect for all Christians who are truly temples of the holy spirit.

I am not a party to those saying Jesus had no mother.
Deep respect is good but praying to her? Bros, the catholic own is beyond respect, it is pure and unadulterated idolatry ( kindly see the definition of idolatry in my previous post).
When ppl asked Jesus to teach them how to pray he started by 'Our Father, who art in heaven....'. Jesus never deviated from this line, always addressing his prayer to God the Father. His disciples continued in like manner and passed the model of address prayer to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ....
But wht do we have now? The Catholic church has prayers to Mary, dead people and inanimate objects. And u dont agree that this is textbook idolatry?
Mary gave birth to Jesus, no dispute but our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son by the Holy Spirit and not with Mary.
Therefore the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship (communion, communication, partnership) of the Holy Spirit be with u forever.

Bobbysworld28:

SEE THIS CLOWN!!!!
So the temple where Jesus was baptised had images, therefore Jesus used images! I really used to think u were smarter than this o.
An image is just an image until u idolise it. So whenever u want to pray and instead of address it to God, u address Mary, an image of Mary, an angel, an image of Jesus and any other image u have idolised that thing. Fyi, anything dt takes the place of God in ur life is an idol unto u, so I admonish u once again to keep away from idols.
Like Jesus said, the Father seeketh those who would worship Him (not anyone or anything else) in spirit and in truth

my dear friend,

this is a new year, and frankly i do not have the strength for a cheap insult contest, i had a lot of arguement with insults throwers last year, i do not have the stomach for it this year.

You are the only person who claim not to know that all Jews including Jesus worship in the temple which had images. I am a clown, thanks for the title.

I wish you a goodnite.

Ubenedictus:


my dear friend,

this is a new year, and frankly i do not have the strength for a cheap insult contest, i had a lot of arguement with insults throwers last year, i do not have the stomach for it this year.

You are the only person who claim not to know that all Jews including Jesus worship in the temple which had images. I am a clown, thanks for the title.

I wish you a goodnite.

Sorry for the insult!
Modified!
Pls continue, ok?

Bobbysworld28:

SEE THIS GUY!!!!
So the temple where Jesus was baptised had images, therefore Jesus used images! I really used to think u were smarter than this o.
I hope u know dt an image is just an image until u idolise it, hence d admonition. This shows u dt some ppl were trying to smuggle falsehood into christianity.
So whenever u want to pray and instead of addressing your prayer to God, u address Mary, an image of Mary, an angel, an image of Jesus and any other image have u succeeded in idolising that image? Yes, u have!
Fyi, anything dt takes the place of God in ur life is an idol unto u, so I admonish u once again to keep away from idols.
Like Jesus said, the Father seeketh those who would worship Him (not anyone or anything else) in spirit and in truth

sorry my dear,

i do not worship images of mary or the angels or saints. As you just said a statue is just a statue until u make it an idol i.e giving it the worship due to the divine.

And yes the image of an angel, a cherubim to be precise was on the ark, the image was treated with respect, God never said treating an image with respect is a sin, infact all Isrealite who prayed in the temple prayed before the imaGe of an angel.

I don't pray to a statue of mary or micheal or angels, like the isrealites i only pray in front of a statue, i hope you can note the big difference, a statue doesn't hear prayers so i don't pray to statues.

Asking for prayer, i.e intercession doesn't distract from the worship of God, i hope you know that.


And the bolded is in a disrespectful tone, one i'll rather avoid and one i hope i won't be hearing again.

Bobbysworld28:


For example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. Man commits idolatry whenever he honours and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods, or demons (for example satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money etc."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry

If you had manage to read the Catechism futher you would have found where it talks about images, but it seems you didn't read futher.

And dear, I as a catholic believe that whenever one honours or reveres any creature in place of the creator then he commits idolatry. That is why from the get go all catholics are taught never to replace God with anything, never to give the honour due to God (i.e Adoration) to any creature, whether a human being, an animal, an angel, a saint or any statue. I just finished teaching a bunch of kids that the honour for God should never be given to a creature and surprisinG you are accusing of the very thing i condemned.

I consider such accusation unfair an misinformed.

Bobbysworld28:

I am not a party to those saying Jesus had no mother.

then the thread is not directed to you.

Deep respect is good but praying to her? Bros, the catholic own is beyond respect, it is pure and unadulterated idolatry ( kindly see the definition of idolatry in my previous post).

sorry my dear friend,
the definition given never said asking people for prayers meant idolatry. Do you worship your brethren when you ask from intercession? Askin for mary's prayers is not idolatry. Idolatry would have been if we gave mary the honour due to God, (adoration).

Stick to the definition, it never said askin for prayers was idolatry.

When ppl asked Jesus to teach them how to pray he started by 'Our Father, who art in heaven....'. Jesus never deviated from this line, always addressing his prayer to God the Father. His disciples continued in like manner and passed the model of address prayer to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ....
But wht do we have now? The Catholic church has prayers to Mary, dead people and inanimate objects. And u dont agree that this is textbook idolatry?

Just for the sake of political correctednes I'll like to point out prayer may also be directed to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

It is from Jesus and the apostles that we learn that it is christian charity to pray for one another and that it isn't a shame to to ask for prayers. And lastly catholics do not and are forbidden to pray to inanimate object.

Askin for prayers my dear is not idolatry, check the definition again.

Mary gave birth to Jesus, no dispute but our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son by the Holy Spirit and not with Mary.
Therefore the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship (communion, communication, partnership) of the Holy Spirit be with u forever.

i remember i had this discussion with you some months back.

I remember i quoted a passage from the book of hebrew which says we are on mount Zion in Gods feast, with anGels and saints and with Christ Jesus, so my dear friend, i wish to repeat what i said then, we not only have communion with the father, son and spirit, but also thru them we have communion with all who belive in Christ Jesus, both angels and saints.
Its not my fault if you don't accept that part of scripture.

Ubenedictus:



sorry my dear,

i do not worship images of mary or the angels or saints. As you just said a statue is just a statue until u make it an idol i.e giving it the worship due to the divine.

And yes the image of an angel, a cherubim to be precise was on the ark, the image was treated with respect, God never said treating an image with respect is a sin, infact all Isrealite who prayed in the temple prayed before the imaGe of an angel.

I don't pray to a statue of mary or micheal or angels, like the isrealites i only pray in front of a statue, i hope you can note the big difference, a statue doesn't hear prayers so i don't pray to statues.

Asking for prayer, i.e intercession doesn't distract from the worship of God, i hope you know that.


And the bolded is in a disrespectful tone, one i'll rather avoid and one i hope i won't be hearing again.

I know u r very smart, but these arguments amaze me sha. Maybe it is a point of view thing.

jhn16.23-24.kjv And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

The verse above depicts a coming difference at the time when Jesus was telling his disciples dt he was about to go and dt the Holy Spirit would come. He explained that prior to that point they could ask nothing in his name, but dt was about to change when he left. No wonder he said boldly dt he was the way, the truth and d life. No one can come to the Father except through him. I ask you: having come to the Father and established a relationship with Him, y would I need to tell Mary (I insist it is praying to Mary) to pray to God for u? R u insisting dt the way Jesus made for us is faulty?

You use the ark of covenant as an example, r u forgetting dt they were under the old covenant? The glory of God was on d ark in the temple then, but in this new covenant the Holy Spirit (whom the ark intended to portay) is in a new temple (your body). How then can u justify bowing down or praying before an inanimate object, when u have direct access to God? Y sell urself short?
Show me one statue Jesus prayed in front of, or even his disciples. Just show me one. God seeks those who will worship him is spirit and in truth. Praying in front of a statue, while addressing the statue is taking God's severance and giving to an inanimate thing. It is rather unfortunate and distasteful.

Nb: u guys pray to the holy sacrament which is an inanimate object

Ubenedictus:


then the thread is not directed to you.



sorry my dear friend,
the definition given never said asking people for prayers meant idolatry. Do you worship your brethren when you ask from intercession? Askin for mary's prayers is not idolatry. Idolatry would have been if we gave mary the honour due to God, (adoration).

Stick to the definition, it never said askin for prayers was idolatry.

Just for the sake of political correctednes I'll like to point out prayer may also be directed to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

It is from Jesus and the apostles that we learn that it is christian charity to pray for one another and that it isn't a shame to to ask for prayers. And lastly catholics do not and are forbidden to pray to inanimate object.

Askin for prayers my dear is not idolatry, check the definition again.



i remember i had this discussion with you some months back.

I remember i quoted a passage from the book of hebrew which says we are on mount Zion in Gods feast, with anGels and saints and with Christ Jesus, so my dear friend, i wish to repeat what i said then, we not only have communion with the father, son and spirit, but also thru them we have communion with all who belive in Christ Jesus, both angels and saints.
Its not my fault if you don't accept that part of scripture.

heb12.22-24.kjv But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

I am yet to see how the scripture above means that u can ask dead saints (there are living saints, sha) to pray for u o! U are inventing a concept alien to the scripture above. The verses above are describing all those in the assembly of the general assembly (including u and i). Which means Mary is there, Paul is there, u r there, I am there, angels and even Jesus.
Since u r in d general assembly, y do u now ask a statue of Mary to talk to God for u? A statue!!! An immovable object! Created by man, haba!
U hv agreed to belittle ur calling and truncate the direct access u have with the Father.

eph3.17-21.kjv That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

The correct knowledge of the love of Christ will make u to be filled with the fulness of God. Dt way, u wont need Mary in ur prayer to God because he has filled u to the brim. Dts y he can do more than u ask according to his power that works in u.

Bobbysworld28:

If refusing to use images is a modern 'heresy', I wonder y Jesus never did it, his apostles never used it and none of them ever instructed u to. Guess y? It is out of place with the new covenant Jesus brought. We are CHRISTIANS and dt means Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (not a set of men teleguided to endorse idolatry at whatever time in history).
Even 1John 5:21 commands you to keep urself from idols. So y exactly will dt endorsement matter to me? U hv been instructed!

Where is it written in the Bible that Christ and His Apostles never used images?

Papist:

Where is it written in the Bible that Christ and His Apostles never used images?

Where is it written that they did?
The burden of proof is on u, not me

Ubenedictus:


my dear friend i believe iconoclasm plays a part, but i think it isn't all. They seem to be scared of identifyin with the humanity of Christ, they are scared of him havin a mother. They do not believe in a cooperation of man and the divine.

My brother i dont disagree with you. But I strongly believe that the rejection by modern protestants of the Mother of God is closely connected to iconoclasm and rejection of Liturgical Worship.

Bobbysworld28:


For example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. Man commits idolatry whenever he honours and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods, or demons (for example satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money etc."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry

So you were told that images in Catholic Churches, monasteries and shrines are honoured in place of God?

Papist:

So you were told that images in Catholic Churches, monasteries and shrines are honoured in place of God?

How else can u describe bowing down in front of a statue of Mary and making supplications to it? Or d utterly distasteful scene of block rosary I see everyday un which children kneel down in front of a picture and statue of Mary and recite for hours in honour of Mary. Or bowing down to the blessed sacrament.
Please, let us get it real here!