vexxy:

Would you consider an infant to a full human? What is a full human? When the famale has developed breasts? When the male has gotten a beard?

I consider a fetus a full human once it is sentient

vexxy:

Did you know that with proper care and immediate attention a 24 week old can survive outside of the womb? Wouldn't that make it human?

No I didn't, but I wonder what kind of quality that life would be. When my wife was pregnant, my daughter had to come 6 weeks earlier because her liver was breaking down and carrying the baby any longer would have caused her death. I was terrified, because I have seen a lot of premature babies that are seriously behind in their mental development. Luckily this wasn't the case for us. Now she can no longer take the risk to become pregnant again because there are serious health risks for her.

In short, I do think that the potential quality of life of the baby to be should be the main driver, the baby may very well be technically alive, but what are the life expectancies of such a baby and in what kind of health (both physically and mentally) would it be?

vexxy:

Also, isn't it termed a "Late Term Abortion" once week 24 kicks in? That's when, in order to abort, the woman must partially give birth to it, then the doctor stabs it in the head, sucks out the brains to collaps the skull, and then commences to pull the rest of it out. What kind of madness is that? It's horrible, it's inhumane, and it shouldn't be tolerated.

I guess that's specific to the US. In Belgium abortion is legal under strict conditions untill the 12th week of pregnancy. Untill the 14th week a ethical medical commission can grant permission after carefull review of the case. After 14 weeks, abortion is only legal in case of severe health risks to the mother or in case the fetus is severely handicapped.
I honestly believe that this is one of the best regulations around. Even though a 24/25 weeks fetus is not yet sentient, I do have emotional (although logically there shouldn't be any) problems with abortion at that stage. But my motivations here are purely emotional, not rational and policy should not be guided directly by emotions;

Seun:

Should the offence of deliberately aborting a pregnancy old enough for the feotus to be regarded as a person (25 weeks) be regarded as 1st degree murder and prosecuted the same way? With life imprisonment or execution? Can you give a reason for your answer?

You're hinging on technicalities here, Seun. I find this topic here way too delicate to be discussed in such a manner. If you take a legalisic perspective: yes.

And when judging murder (as a legal term), you do not immediately end up with such sentences. They're way out of proportion regarding the crime

Nferyn, thanks for answering my question. The law is "legalistic" by nature - an ambigous law is not useful in practice.

Anyway, my view on abortion has changed in the course of our discussion: I now believe that, when a woman no longer wants to carry a baby, she can abort it - the doctor can induce something like a miscarriage. After the baby comes out, then the doctor must try to save the life of the baby using all medical means possible.

If the baby doesn't survive, that is a successful abortion. This way, nobody has actually killed the baby - it only failed to survive.

If the baby survives, then the abortion has failed and the child must be taken care of by the mother or given up for abortion.

I used to think that abortion was ok, but now I don't support it. Instead of legalizing abortion, the state should provide better support for those who mistakenly get pregnant so they'll not want to abort the baby anymore. At this point, I think I really detest abortion because a life is a life. If the baby has the capacity to survive, why not let him/her survive?

Seun:

Nferyn, thanks for answering my question. The law is "legalistic" by nature - an ambigous law is not useful in practice.

Of course, but the discussion is not limited to the law. In your last replies,you were implicitely limiting yourself to the legal context. That's why I made that remark

Seun:

Anyway, my view on abortion has changed in the course of our discussion: I now believe that, when a woman no longer wants to carry a baby, she can abort it - the doctor can induce something like a miscarriage. After the baby comes out, then the doctor must try to save the life of the baby using all medical means possible.

At what stage of the pregnancy are you talking about a baby? An 8 week old fetus is not a baby. Even religions (which usually don't base their arguments on solid science) greatly diverge on this point, e.g. Orthodox Judaism only starts talking about a baby from the moment it draws it's first breath, thus after birth.

And how would this work in practice? Using this procedure may very well put the life of both the woman and the fetus at risk. And suppose this procedure results in a high chance of having a severely handicapped baby. You would actually be increasing the number of handicapped children in the population.

Maybe someone with a medical background could explain what this all means, I certainly don't know all the consequences.

Seun:

If the baby doesn't survive, that is a successful abortion. This way, nobody has actually killed the baby - it only failed to survive.

This is the kind of reaction I would expect from a Jesuit. This is purely semantics. There were actions carried out that highly increased the risk of death, some would call that killing

Seun:

If the baby survives, then the abortion has failed and the child must be taken care of by the mother or given up for abortion.

And what condition will the baby be in? To me, the quality of life is at least as important as the fact that it is alive.

Seun:

I used to think that abortion was ok, but now I don't support it. Instead of legalizing abortion, the state should provide better support for those who mistakenly get pregnant so they'll not want to abort the baby anymore. At this point, I think I really detest abortion because a life is a life. If the baby has the capacity to survive, why not let him/her survive?

Yes, but at the same time you're advocating a solution that would probably make everyone worse of.
Nobody - certainly not me - ever said that abortion was a good thing. We should do everything in our power to prevent it, but let us not lose track of the facts:
[list]
[li]Countries with legalised, properly regulated (and I'm explicitely NOT talking about the US here) have lower levels of abortions. The number of abortions actually goes down once it is properly regulated[/li]
[li]Comprehensive sex education is the best way to avoid unwanted pregnencies[/li]
[li]living in a moral fantasy world where you regulate based on higher ideals is not helping the situation. Just say no doesn't work, abstinence only doesn't work. People have sex, so we better make sure that there are as little negative consequences as possible (the pope advocating against the use of the condom in Africa is a perfect example: this kind of statements is costing thousands of lives)[/li]
[/list]

I still think that the way abortions are handled in Belgium isprobably one of the best solutions (and I'll quote myself):

nferyn:

In Belgium abortion is legal under strict conditions untill the 12th week of pregnancy. Untill the 14th week a ethical medical commission can grant permission after carefull review of the case. After 14 weeks, abortion is only legal in case of severe health risks to the mother or in case the fetus is severely handicapped.

Either or illegal abortion is criminal.

Greatpeter:

Either or illegal abortion is criminal.

What do you mean? Of course illegal abortion is criminal, otherwise it wouldn't be illegal. The question is, should it be?

Sorry a mistake on my own path.

I wanted to say either legal or illegal abortion remains criminal.

Than man legalize abortion does not mean God legalises it.

It still remains a sin before God.

Greatpeter:

Sorry a mistake on my own path.

I wanted to say either legal or illegal abortion remains criminal.

Than man legalize abortion does not mean God legalises it.

It still remains a sin before God.

I never really understood this. On what exactly is this based? I've never seen a convincing argument on why a christian should be against abortion in all cases

The only argumentation I've seen is based on tradition

Haba Christians have ever being preachers against abortion, prostitution, gay marriages and all other social vices.

God condemns them all.

Greatpeter:

Haba Christians have ever being preachers against abortion, prostitution, gay marriages and all other social vices.

God condemns them all.

Exactly, you're referencing tradition. Can you make a solid argument on scriptural grounds?

If not why aren't all Christions orthodox or catholic?

I don't know of this tradition of a thing you are talikig about but I know the word of God.

I attend a pentecostal Church and I know abortion is a sin before God and not tradition at all.

Greatpeter:

I don't know of this tradition of a thing you are talikig about but I know the word of God.

I attend a pentecostal Church and I know abortion is a sin before God and not tradition at all.

Ok, I'll try to be more clear: what parts of the Bible condemn abortion?
Where do you even find exegetic sources for the condemnation of abortion in all cases

The Bible says thou shall not kill.

Is abortion not a kill?

Greatpeter:

The Bible says thou shall not kill.

Is abortion not a kill?

Is abortion killing in all circumstances? At what stage does life begin?

And what about the death penalty? What about christians joining an army or the police force?

And even in the bible it is full of passages in which God [b]explicitely [/b]asks to kill:
e.g.:

Ex. 32:27
"thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor."
1 Sam. 15:2-3
"thus saith the Lord of hosts... go and smithe Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not: but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

You are cofusing yourself.
It seems you don't understand the scriptures very well.

You are putting warfare in place of commandments.
I won't take you on again on this issue.

Greatpeter:

You are cofusing yourself.
It seems you don't understand the scriptures very well.

Care to explain it to me then?

Greatpeter:

You are putting warfare in place of commandments.
I won't take you on again on this issue.

So you are saying that God, in these instances, is not [b]explicitely [/b]asking the Israelites to kill, contrary to the commandment not to kill? That's not what I read. Or is it OK to kill in some instances and in others not?

And because I quote something from the scriptures that doesn't fit your ideas, you won't discuss with me anymore?

It seems that you only want to make assertions without backing them up or debating their merit. I would very much like to understand your point of view, but you deny me that opportunity

Spiritual View:

God said to the prophet Jeremiah, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. Jeremiah 1:5 God knew this man before he was born. As he was forming in his mother's womb God gave him his personality, talents, and temperament. If his mother had gotten an abortion, the "fetal tissue" she aborted would have been a real person named Jeremiah; a mighty prophet of God and the gift of God's voice to the nations, though she would never have known.

The Lord hath called me from the womb: from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1 KJV

Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us within our mothers? Job 31:15

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13-14

The above verses are a few Biblical references we find to life inside the mother's womb. From them, it is clear that life begins when God creates it, not at some later point in time when it has grown to look like a newborn. God does not judge things according to their stage of development the way humans tend to. According to the above passages, even the tiniest embryo is the subject of His love and care. God sees each of our lives in the realm of our total existence, whether we are yet unborn, a young woman in the prime of her life, or an old man on his deathbed.


Scientific View:

Just 18 days after conception, the baby's heart begins to beat. At six weeks, brain waves can be measured. At eight weeks the vital organs are functioning and fingerprints have formed. At nine weeks, the unborn baby is able to feel pain. Over 700,000 abortions each year are performed after this point in the pregnancy. By the beginning of the second month, the unborn child, small as it is, has begun to look distinctly human, though the mother may not even be aware that she is pregnant! By the time the baby is eleven weeks old, he or she breaths (fluid), swallows, digests, sleeps, dreams, wakes, tastes, hears, and feels pain. Babies born prematurely can survive outside the womb as young as 20-25 weeks old. Yet, all that is necessary to make the baby a grown human being is already there from the moment of conception. All it needs is time to mature.

Former Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop stated "We now know when life begins because the test-tube baby proves that life begins with conception. What do you have in the dish? An egg and a sperm. What do you add to it to get a baby? Nothing." Though it is wee, it is still a real person, just as a crumb of bread is still real bread. No one who has been given the gift of life should dare despise the day of small beginnings.

[center]Have we forgotten so quickly that we were once as small? [/center]

Vexxy a researcher, good job there I need more.

This is Anatomy and Physiology oo.

Hi Vexxy,

Let me first tell you that I am in no postion to judge you on your spiritual position. I do not share the view that the Bible is the literal word of God because of the many contradictions, both within the text as with known science and history. For me the Bible (especially the old testament)is a product of fallible men, ignorant herders that tried to make sense of their world as best as they could, in a time that morality was very different from our times. I do have more respect for the new testament though, as the moral values of love and forgiveness that you may find there are closer to my heart, but it is still a product of men.

As a token of respect for your point of view, I wish not to enter a debate on the merits of the Bible as a guide for one's life, unless you explicitly want to do that, but in that case harsh criticism could cloud our cordial on line encounters, and I would hate that to happen, so I propose to leave it at that (that's what my wife and I do, we hold roughly the same moral values, but the sources for our morality differ and we leave it at that)

I do have some remarks though on your scientific view

vexxy:

[SNIP]

Scientific View:

Just 18 days after conception, the baby's heart begins to beat.

Meaning before that it does not yet have a metabolism separate from the mother

vexxy:

At six weeks, brain waves can be measured.

Meaning that there is neurological activity. Hardly a surprise, all tetrapods have this, even for fish and squids you could measure brainwaves

vexxy:

At eight weeks the vital organs are functioning and fingerprints have formed.

OK, and what does that mean?

vexxy:

At nine weeks, the unborn baby is able to feel pain.

Is he? This really surprises me. What is your source for this information?

The Journal of The American Medical Association states:
Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks.

source: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/8/947

clearly a refutation of your point

vexxy:

Over 700,000 abortions each year are performed after this point in the pregnancy. By the beginning of the second month, the unborn child, small as it is, has begun to look distinctly human, though the mother may not even be aware that she is pregnant! By the time the baby is eleven weeks old, he or she breaths (fluid), swallows, digests, sleeps, dreams, wakes, tastes, hears, and feels pain.

This is again clearly contradicted by the source I gave (well, at least the part of dreams and feels pain

vexxy:

Babies born prematurely can survive outside the womb as young as 20-25 weeks old. Yet, all that is necessary to make the baby a grown human being is already there from the moment of conception. All it needs is time to mature.

Possibly, but really, can you give me some examples of a premature baby of 20-25 weeks that grew up to be a healthy child? And what are the chances for that happening?

vexxy:

Former Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop stated "We now know when life begins because the test-tube baby proves that life begins with conception. What do you have in the dish? An egg and a sperm. What do you add to it to get a baby? Nothing."

Well apart from a mother giving nutrition and thus allowing the fetus to grow into a baby nothing, indeed, nothing. Leave the test tube alone and you will get a baby?
This is pure rhetoric

Let's all be aware of the following facts:
[list]
[li]In The US, the Surgeon General is a political appointee, someone with a medical background chosen primarily because of his political affiliation[/li]
[li]The former Surgeon General Dr. C. Everett Koop, was appointed by former US President Roland Reagan, precisely and primarily because they shared the same anti abortion stance[/li]
[li]The former Surgeon General Dr. C. Everett Koop has been involved in less than ethical conduct (e.g. http://www.urielw.com/deception1.htm )[/li]
[/list]
Of course that does not mean the man did not give a lot of positive contributions to society, but he is certainly not to be considered the spokesperson or the representative of the medical profession

vexxy:

Though it is wee, it is still a real person, just as a crumb of bread is still real bread. No one who has been given the gift of life should dare despise the day of small beginnings.

Based on what do you decide that a fertilised egg is a person, What are your criteria?
Analogy is not really appropriate in this case, it might lead to tasteless comparisons

vexxy:

[center]Have we forgotten so quickly that we were once as small? [/center]

I certainly don't remember, I was not yet sentient

Aborting a one day pregnacy is a crime to me because it is inhumane

pure murder,and i believe we all know murder is a crime...

adesodgi:

pure murder,and i believe we all know murder is a crime...

Why? did you read the previous entries?

As a catholic - it is definitely a crime

As a 21st century individual - it is definitely a right

I guess it depends on the circumstance, so its hard to judge

whocares:

As a catholic - it is definitely a crime

As a 21st century individual - it is definitely a right

I guess it depends on the circumstance, so its hard to judge

And where does that leave you?

So, conclusion after reading these posts:

1) There is currently no biblical support or condemnation for arbortion - those who quote thou shall not kill suddenly become silent when they are quoted passages where God specifically instructs the Israelites to kill.

2) The big question therefore is when does life - or sentinence - begin? This is a super hard question to answer. Since none of us are God - we will never know. Someone quoted some scripture which indicates God forming ppl in the womb and knowing them in the womb - this still does not indicate when life begins - 1st week? 1st day? 4th month? Adam was formed by God too, but did not have life until God "breathed" it into him.

allonym:

[SNIP]
2) The big question therefore is when does life - or sentinence - begin? This is a super hard question to answer. Since none of us are God - we will never know. Someone quoted some scripture which indicates God forming people in the womb and knowing them in the womb - this still does not indicate when life begins - 1st week? 1st day? 4th month? Adam was formed by God too, but did not have life until God "breathed" it into him.

For life, it's not that hard: once the organism has an independently functioning metabolism. This going going to be different for a complex lifeform such as humans (which need a fair bit of development before that happens) and for bacteria (which are alive with just one cell). Let's say for convenience sake when all major organs are formed and the baby could possibly survive outside the womb.

We don't know exactly when sentience begins, but we do know when it certainly hasn't begun yet: before 29 weeks.
see: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/8/947

Please excuse the emotions but I've just come from a pregnancy crisis clinic and learned so many things and heard so many stories from women who've gone through an abortion. I just can't agree with the whole thing.

Nferyn, I respect your thoughts, I truly do but even if you were to break this post down word for word this is the [maybe ] the last thing I'll say about it:

Suction and Curettage Abortion of a 9 Week Old Fetus

1. A speculum is placed in the vagina, a tenaculum is clamped to the lip of the cervix and a cannula is inserted into the uterus.

2. The amniotic fluid, placenta and fetus are suctioned through the cannula into a collection jar. The fetus and placenta are torn apart in the process.

3. The uterine cavity is scraped with a curete to determine whether any signifcant amount of tissue remains.

4. Blood, amniotic fluid, placental tissue and fetal perts are placed in a jar. The contents aof the jar are then examined to assure that all fetal parts and an adequate amount of tissue commensurate with estimated gestational age are present.

This is a horrible process for one to edure. There are both physical and psychological damages that can be done to the woman. No matter when you think life begins or not, this is not something that can be easily done and forgotten about. There are thousands of women suffering from past abortions. There was a woman of 40 who broke down into tears about an abortion she under went in her 20's. She had supressed feelings that she didn't know about until she just had cycles of crying and depression.

A few of the stories that were shared from friends and family:

Holly Patterson, 18 died on Sept. 17, 2003, one week after she underwent an early "medical" abortion using RU-486 at a facility in the San Francisco area. A massive infection caused by parts of the baby being left inside the uterus caused her to go into septic shock. Her father, Money Patterson, said he did not know his daughter was pregnant.

Diana Lopez, 25 bled to death February 28, 2002 after her cervix was punctrued during an abortion. The Department of Health Services has cited the clinic for numerous deficiencies. Lopez left behind two young children. (Abortion clinics are not regulated like hospitals are so many stories like this arrise)

Name not released had been carrying twins when she went for her abortion. One of the babies was aborted and the other was partically dismembered and left alive inside the womb, although the clinic claimed the abortion was completel. Eventually, a pregnancy test confirmed the woman was still pregnant, and when an ultrasound revealed the remaining child had only one arm and one leg, the woman underwent a late-term aboriton. She later suffered sever psychological trama becuase of the abortions.

I dont think we see the gravity of this act. We sit here debating back and forth on when life begins and fail to see that it [life] comes to a harsh end through this practice. And the effects remain for some time afterward.

Hi Vexxy,

Nowhere did I say that abortion is something good. Unwanted pregnancies should be avoided at all costs. Abortion is indeed an operative medical procedure and, as with all such procedures, a lot of things can go wrong. You examples show that it is certainly not something that should be done lightly.

Anyway, I think that the way the US is handling abortion is on the verge of the immoral. The conditions under which these are carried out, as well as the required counseling and post-operative follow up are insufficient to say the least.

This leaves the door wide open for the cases you describe to occur. I have not heard of one such case either in the Netherlands or in Belgium.

Many abortions scar the women emotionally for life and that's why:
* everything should be done to prevent unwanted pregnancies
* the abortions that would still occur need to be done under strict medical, legal and emotional guidance
* extensive post-abortive counseling is necessary

If you would ever have the chance to visit Belgium, I could show you the center of reproductive medicine at the AZ VUB (the University I went to) and show you the counseling and care that is given to such patients. It never has to come to these kind of horrific scenarios you described.

I personally think that the way health care is organized in the US, in an almost exclusive for profit organization, is leading to these kind of situations. When you have comprehensive universal health care for all citizens, time and care can be given to the people that decide to undergo abortions so that the negative effect thereof are minimized.
I would dread to be a poor woman in the US with an unwanted pregnancy.

abortion is murder FULL STOP ..if a women is not ready to have a baby then hello keep your legs closed .... in the case of rape there is adoption just because the mother was raped is no reason to kill the poor baby it was not its fault so why should the baby pay ( i was raped so yes i can say this )

jojo:

abortion is murder FULL STOP ..if a women is not ready to have a baby then hello keep your legs closed .... in the case of rape there is adoption just because the mother was raped is no reason to kill the poor baby it was not its fault so why should the baby pay ( i was raped so yes i can say this )

Please read the complete thread, look at the arguments and then make up your mind. You may come to the same conclusion, but then again, you may also discover that this is not a black-and-white issue.
Can you substantiate your claim as to why abortion is murder?

nferyn. yes i can how right do u think it is to be a baby safe and warm in a womb then some bastard comes in to your world and rips your legs and arms off and sticks objects in your head to suck out your little brain it is murder i dont care what u or anyone else says have u ever read up on abortion seen pictures of what happenes to those dear little babies because some bastard wants to make money for himself or herself by killing them