To clear up misunderstandings here. Mind explain what you mean when you say ENVIRONMENT and INFRASTRUCTURE?

Kobojunkie:

To clear up misunderstandings here. Mind explain what you mean when you say ENVIRONMENT and INFRASTRUCTURE?

When i refer to the term environment with regards to businesses, industries and the conomy i refer to all the factors that will make such function effectively and hence infrastructure in this sense is part of that environment. Infrastructure like transport - good roads, rail system, ferry system, etc - that might make businesses like parcel delivery etc more efficient and hence create more jobs (just one example from the top of my head). Infrastructure like good security around the area, constant power supply, water, etc. You get the gist.

Environment on the other hands covers more than infrastructure and can benefit from infrastructure, for example, good roads and traffic lights and obeying of traffic signs due to law enforcement, etc, would hopefully mean people spend less time in traffic and more time at work, a more productive economic and business environment foremployers whereby more man hours can result in greater productivity. Security will give confidence to smaller scale businesses whereby they are able to expand and not have to pay money to agberos and touts etc, and not fear so much that their savings and profits will be robbed from their bank like is currently the case in a lot of Nigerian cities, the security creates a more stable business environment, etc. Hence i will say infrastructure has a lot to do with a better business and developmental "environment". Funny enough i will also add education and health to this environment (moreso education) to serve as a means of a regular supply of freshminds and skilled people to drive the economy and enhance growth and development of all sectors. However, this to me is not an issue of one being important and the other not being important, it is about choosing a compromise for the current situation that is; whereby all sectors are run down. Education will serve as a driving force and is vital and important, sure. However, lack of graduates is not the pressing issue right now in terms of poverty alleviation and develpment, is it? See what i mean? I am in no way against education or health, neither do i say such are not important, but given the circumstances, a good way to fast track development and create more revenue by expansion of businesses and industries and hence investments and revenue for the government is to focus on creating good infrastructure and attracting investors to invest in important services like transport, etc. Education and other sectors can be addressed along side an aggressive charge at infrastructural development.
Am i a bit clearer now?

I go for us agreeing to disagree at this point. We have gone through this enough for each to know where the other stands. I agree that all you list above are needed but I don't believe they are basic issues that need to be tackled first, and so yes, our priority lists seem to be different still and may continue to remain that way, even after this thread is sent to the archives.

Kobojunkie:

I go for us agreeing to disagree at this point. We have gone through this enough for each to know where the other stands. I agree that all you list above are needed but I don't believe they are basic issues that need to be tackled first, and so yes, our priority lists seem to be different still and may continue to remain that way, even after this thread is sent to the archives.

LOL, deal. As you can see, i do get where you're coming from just as i think you get my direction also.

Couldn't believe you guys would eventually agree, though I sort of tend to lean more towards KoboJunkie because I believe in getting the very basics right and then get onto bigger things,

Oh well, I deal as well,

Lol. . .I have never been against re-building of infrastructure and cleaning up Lagos. I have lived through most 12 governors in that state, most of whom have come in to re-build infrastructure and clean up lagos. We have had so many tacky catch phrases to go with each of those plans too. Seems the lagos is mega-city. I have seen this sort of thing happen too too many times that I long for the good old days when the people were in charge and the people were put first before anything else. That is what made Lagos the city it used to be and in my opinion, the only way we can restore that city to what it used to be and more. Back then there was a lot of focus on ensuring the people had the basic; this was the environment businesses needed and so we had so many international companies flock in by the year, hiring local talents. I mean back then it was rare to see an Indian or persons from foreign countries. I remember my dad had a south African Caucasian for a driver. That was the way it used to be. WE RULED lagos. We made the decisions, and government worked on making sure we had the essentials. The police in Lagos knew their place. People obeyed traffic without being cajoled into doing it because they were not neglected; they understood they were a part of the process – the community.  I mean you drop trash and someone from behind would pull you aside to talk to you about that. Oh Lord!! What happened to us!

Kobojunkie:

Lol. . .I have never really been against re-building of infrastructure and cleaning up Lagos. I have seen this sort of thing happen too too many times that I long for the good old days when the people were in charge and the people were put first before anything else. That is what made Lagos the city it used to be and in my opinion, the only way we can restore that city to what it used to be and more. Back then there was a lot of focus on ensuring the people had the basic; this was the environment businesses needed and so we had so many international companies flock in by the year, hiring local talents. I mean back then it was rare to see an Indian or persons from foreign countries. I remember my dad had a south African Caucasian for a driver. That was the way it used to be. WE RULED lagos. We made the decisions, and government worked on making sure we had the essentials. The police in Lagos knew their place. People obeyed traffic without being cajoled into doing it because they were not neglected; they understood they were a part of the process – the community. I mean you drop trash and someone from behind would pull you aside to talk to you about that. Oh Lord!! What happened to us!

You do have to admit that the Nigeria of then, ripe with promise and possibility is a different one to what it is now. Too many sectors are vying for top priority. If we are to be honest, Yar Adua should declare emergency on every single sector, but given the limited resources I will take a compromise as long as something is done. To be frank i wouldn't mind if Fashola took the direction of education and health as the very topmost priority because such too will obviously have its benefits. I just think that the route of aggressive infrastructural development while putting other sectors along side this is a much better compromise as it could fast track development. All in all whichever way, it would be a compromise for now at least due to limited resources. And i cannnot believe i put Yar Adua and the concept of development and progress in thesame sentence.

Sky Blue:

All in all whichever way, it would be a compromise for now at least due to limited resources.

Limited resources? - The amount of money looted and still yet to be recovered could easily tackle a sector hands-down without touching what we have in the reserves. If we get these money back from Ibori, Fa**y-Kayode ( ) and the likes, we'll definitely make a progress. So regardless of the price of crude oil, why did we overlook these funds tha could have been put to giid use?

Sky Blue:

And i cannnot believe i put Yar Adua and the concept of development and progress in thesame sentence.

LOL, Did yo just write that? I thought you love this dude, 

Sky Blue:

You do have to admit that the Nigeria of then, ripe with promise and possibility is a different one to what it is now. Too many sectors are vying for top priority.

Nah!! We have always had the corrupt ones among us. We just never allowed them as much leeway as we do today. We had seriously corrupt folks back then. Another thing is I can not say the same was the case in other states in the same country back then.

I mean all you had to do was drive up Lagos Ibadan rd then to see the big difference between how things were run in Lagos and the neigboring states. It was clear as day. Lagos was different, in that regardless of what was going on at the national level, we were able to insulate our system as much as we could, for as long as we could afford.

We has serious boundaries that could not be crossed back then, no matter who you were. That changed when government took over and starting trying to do it all.

@B.O.S.S. we are talking of a state and not Nigeria. As far as i am concerned i am yet to see any proof that Nigeria actually has a functioning president. Nigeria might have huge financial resources but does lagos have such? Nigeria has huge financial resources but is it willing to use such to develop and progress? The financial resources of Lagos in my view can be more than quadrupled if it can become a viable economic centre in the world.

@Kobojunkie i don't know about Ibadan, but Port Harcourt seemed to have that kind of buffer in place whereby there was development etc and the name "Garden City" was actually warranted as relics from that time will show. I can't vouch for wether it was due to a solid democratically and politically savvy populace though. Whatever happens though, a more sustainable means of development will surely be to have the people back in control because then their is coninuity in developlent though direction might change.

waoo, da state of that school is bad oo and I would love to provide them with chairs etc they need. Please provide me with more info about the school

the school is in a bad state now i guess

Fash needs to be there ASAP.

Sky Blue:

@Kobojunkie i don't know about Ibadan, but Port Harcourt seemed to have that kind of buffer in place whereby there was development etc and the name "Garden City" was actually warranted as relics from that time will show. I can't vouch for wether it was due to a solid democratically and politically savvy populace though. Whatever happens though, a more sustainable means of development will surely be to have the people back in control because then their is coninuity in developlent though direction might change.

Exactly the reason why I believe we need to deal with Education of the people, in Lagos, with the same vigour, or even more than we are currently dealing with infrastructure. Like I have been saying over and over now. What Fashola is doing today was done by Marwa; was done by many governors before him. Look into the history of development in that state. This same has been done before. I would rather we deal with it in a way that ensures continuity now, rather than wake up tommorow to a new governor and the same old cycle.

The governor can definitely do more than one thing at a time as you said, and so the reason why I can no understand why he is not able to tackle education just the same way he, according to you, is tackling infrastructure and the environment. You state that finances might be problem but I seriously doubt that as there is no data that shows that their is enough money in that state to work on the projects he has and continues to so far but not on education an issues that directly affect the people, in the same way.

Kobojunkie:

Exactly the reason why I believe we need to deal with Education of the people, in Lagos, with the same vigour, or even more than we are currently dealing with infrastructure. Like I have been saying over and over now. What Fashola is doing today was done by Marwa; was done by many governors before him. Look into the history of development in that state. This same has been done before. I would rather we deal with it in a way that ensures continuity now, rather than wake up tommorow to a new governor and the same old cycle.

The governor can definitely do more than one thing at a time as you said, and so the reason why I can no understand why he is not able to tackle education just the same way he, according to you, is tackling infrastructure and the environment. You state that finances might be problem but I seriously doubt that as there is no data that shows that their is enough money in that state to work on the projects he has and continues to so far but not on education an issues that directly affect the people, in the same way.

I don't doubt that there has been infrastructural upgrades in the past, however what i see as different (and perhaps i might be wrong) is the direction that has beeen chosen to accomplish such with this present administration. The direction has been one of enticing the private sectors to participate in development by successfully arguing a financial and economic case for such investments. These investments will yield returns for private owners. Case in point which i have used previously, the BRT scheme. The government created the infrastructure (good roads, denmarcations, traffic laws and penalty for driving on BRT lanes, the depots which hire a lot of people for maintenance, etc) and banks bought the buses. A good example to use is the strategy that is apparently being employed for the planned 8 lane highway (if i am not mistaken), private companies are going to operate and maintain the highways and collect toll from it. A lot of the roads being rehabilitated have been contracted to companies and the contract includes maintenance of roads for a time period (significant number of years which can be renewed). The direction taken is one i agree with because it presents a situation whereby the onus won't lie on government to continue to maintain these roads since such responsibility will lie with the private sector which will in so doing make profits for themselves and provide well maintained roads and hence a service to the public. Thesame goes with the ferry service (not bad looking at all, not the canoes i was expecting lol), the whole idea of putting responsibility in the hands of private investors who will want to do the job well due to contractual obligation and in the interest of making profit. This creates a more sustainable approach whereby the state of the infrastructure won't alter with every change in government.

Sky Blue:

I don't doubt that there has been infrastructural upgrades in the past, however what i see as different (and perhaps i might be wrong) is the direction that has beeen chosen to accomplish such with this present administration. The direction has been one of enticing the private sectors to participate in development by successfully arguing a financial and economic case for such investments. These investments will yield returns for private owners.

Walk down the main streets in Lagos, and you will find that many of the companies and private citizens have made a mark in the past in much the same way. We have many prominent families in Lagos; prominent in the sense that they are known are families who contributed to development in much the same way in that state. What you say he is doing now, is nothing new. It has most always been done the same way in the past. There is a downside to that though. Many of the contributors sort of used it as opportunity to gain attention, and propel themselves into the political arena e.g. Tinubu’s.

Sky Blue:

Case in point which i have used previously, the BRT scheme. The government created the infrastructure (good roads, denmarcations, traffic laws and penalty for driving on BRT lanes, the depots which hire a lot of people for maintenance, etc) and banks bought the buses. A good example to use is the strategy that is apparently being employed for the planned 8 lane highway (if i am not mistaken), private companies are going to operate and maintain the highways and collect toll from it. A lot of the roads being rehabilitated have been contracted to companies and the contract includes maintenance of roads for a time period (significant number of years which can be renewed). The direction taken is one i agree with because it presents a situation whereby the onus won't lie on government to continue to maintain these roads since such responsibility will lie with the private sector which will in so doing make profits for themselves and provide well maintained roads and hence a service to the public.

I don’t understand what you mean here. Hasn’t it always been the government’s job to give road contracts to private companies that ensure development? If the private sector does not get the needed funding for maintaining the roads from government .i.e. Corruption continues, where does that come from? From already taxed tax payers? I don’t understand how the onus will be on the companies to maintain the roads.

Sky Blue:

Thesame goes with the ferry service (not bad looking at all, not the canoes i was expecting lol), the whole idea of putting responsibility in the hands of private investors who will want to do the job well due to contractual obligation and in the interest of making profit. This creates a more sustainable approach whereby the state of the infrastructure won't alter with every change in government.

I am not sure what you are getting at here.

Kobojunkie:

Walk down the main streets in Lagos, and you will find that many of the companies and private citizens have made a mark in the past in much the same way. We have many prominent families in Lagos; prominent in the sense that they are known are families who contributed to development in much the same way in that state. What you say he is doing now, is nothing new. It has most always been done the same way in the past. There is a downside to that though. Many of the contributors sort of used it as opportunity to gain attention, and propel themselves into the political arena e.g. Tinubu’s.
I don’t understand what you mean here. Hasn’t it always been the government’s job to give road contracts to private companies that ensure development? If the private sector does not get the needed funding for maintaining the roads from government .i.e. Corruption continues, where does that come from? From already taxed tax payers? I don’t understand how the onus will be on the companies to maintain the roads.

I am not sure what you are getting at here.

According to my understanding, instead of a situation whereby you have a lot of private companies now there were instead prominent families after independence, not just in lagos but around the country. What you have now however is companies with finances that are not treated as family affairs, but companies that are responsible to the investors in the company. This is to address the issue you raised of focusing on the work at hand as oppossed to going for political ambitions. The companies aren't all (with few exceptions) one man shows anymore.

On your second issue i think you might have misunderstood the financing arrangement i was speaking of with regards to funding. Unless i am mistaken, most toll gates (if not all) in the past collected toll for the government and not companies because mostly government put itself in the position of maintaining roads and hence the normal inefficieny with regards to Nigerian government running things just fell into place. However, with the contract arrangements now, a company is contracted to build a road and as part of the contract maintain the road, not government. What is being paid for is build and maintain. The highway on the other hand goes a step further (perhaps because it wil be more costly to maintain) and after being built, toll is collected, which goes to the company that is meant to maintain the road. The toll is used for both revenue for the company and road maintenance. Does that now make sense? Putting the responsibility of maintenance and hence sustainability of the infrastrucure in the hands of th private sector and not government as had been the case before of government hiring private companies to build and then leaving out maintenance. A more sustainable aproach as opposed to the case of giving government the money to do it when private companies can do it more efficiently and sustainably (and will want to due to it being a source of income and profits and the legal obligations a contract creates), without disruptions from changing of administratons.

Sky Blue:

According to my understanding, instead of a situation whereby you have a lot of private companies now there were instead prominent families after independence, not just in lagos but around the country. What you have now however is companies with finances that are not treated as family affairs, but companies that are responsible to the investors in the company. This is to address the issue you raised of focusing on the work at hand as oppossed to going for political ambitions. The companies aren't all (with few exceptions) one man shows anymore.

Well, there were companies in the picture in the past as well. Companies like Nigerian breweries, Julius Berger, Leventis(not sure if they are still there today), Ragolis, among others. I pinned in on families with the example I gave, but the reality was that we had a combination. We had companies that were practically running things and influencing decision making in the state. So, I am still not sure how it is different this time around.

Sky Blue:

On your second issue i think you might have misunderstood the financing arrangement i was speaking of with regards to funding. Unless i am mistaken, most toll gates (if not all) in the past collected toll for the government and not companies because mostly government put itself in the position of maintaining roads and hence the normal inefficieny with regards to Nigerian government running things just fell into place.
However, with the contract arrangements now, a company is contracted to build a road and as part of the contract maintain the road, not government. What is being paid for is build and maintain. The highway on the other hand goes a step further (perhaps because it wil be more costly to maintain) and after being built, toll is collected, which goes to the company that is meant to maintain the road. The toll is used for both revenue for the company and road maintenance. Does that now make sense?

Here is what I don’t get. Tolls paid, when combined with tax payer collections are used to maintain roads. Say the toll at the Lagos-Ibadan rd is Naira 5. If managed by private companies, they still collect Naira 5 from the people. However, should the additional funding from tax payers not show up to pay for the roads, what are these private companies going to do? Increase toll to offset costs? Or fund the repairs out of pocket?

Sky Blue:

Putting the responsibility of maintenance and hence sustainability of the infrastrucure in the hands of th private sector and not government. A more sustainable aproach as opposed to the case of giving government the money to do it when private companies can do it more efficiently and sustainably (and will want to due to it being a source of income and profits and the legal obligations a contract creates), without disruptions from changing of administratons.

Uumm . . . This is assuming that in the past construction and maintenance was always dealt with as different contracts. I am not sure of that actually. I remember Julius Berger used to hold most of the contracts (maintained included) in Lagos. There was always the problem of funding the contracts and maintenance and so construction problems.
I get what you are saying now but not sure how this deals with the underlying problem of corruption which happens to be the root of the problem in Lagos and the rest of the country, when it comes to maintenance of infrastructure.

Kobojunkie:

Well, there were companies in the picture in the past as well. Companies like Nigerian breweries, Julius Berger, Leventis(not sure if they are still there today), Ragolis, among others. I pinned in on families with the example I gave, but the reality was that we had a combination. We had companies that were practically running things and influencing decision making in the state. So, I am still not sure how it is different this time around.
Here is what I don’t get. Tolls paid, when combined with tax payer collections are used to maintain roads. Say the toll at the Lagos-Ibadan rd is Naira 5. If managed by private companies, they still collect Naira 5 from the people. However, should the additional funding from tax payers not show up to pay for the roads, what are these private companies going to do? Increase toll to offset costs? Or fund the repairs out of pocket?
Uumm . . . This is assuming that in the past construction and maintenance was always dealt with as different contracts. I am not sure of that actually. I remember Julius Berger used to hold most of the contracts (maintained included) in Lagos. There was always the problem of funding the contracts and maintenance and so construction problems.
I get what you are saying now but not sure how this deals with the underlying problem of corruption which happens to be the root of the problem in Lagos and the rest of the country, when it comes to maintenance of infrastructure.

I really don't think tax payers money will go to road maintenance after it has been built. Maintenance is from toll gate fees (correct me if i'm wrong). It is simply business and seems a far better and more stable alernative to government maintenance.

Sky Blue:

I really don't think tax payers money will go to road maintenance after it has been built. Maintenance is from toll gate fees (correct me if i'm wrong). It is simply business and seems a far better and more stable alernative to government maintenance.

kobo and sky blue, healthy debate u guys are having. sky blue, the money for maintenance most likely would be generated from toll. some portion of the toll might go to govt as revenue. but in a case where theres major work to be done. e.g. road expansion. does the govt cuff up the funds or do we increase toll fees?

must_a_far:

kobo and sky blue, healthy debate u guys are having. sky blue, the money for maintenance most likely would be generated from toll. some portion of the toll might go to govt as revenue. but in a case where theres major work to be done. e.g. road expansion. does the govt cuff up the funds or do we increase toll fees?

Well, i am not the governor so i can't say what there stand is on this. However the roads that are going to be tolled are well plyed roads which will likely become even more used with good infrastrucure in place, hence good amount of income to spend on maintenance of roads. However if a major refurbishment needs to be done it will make better sense to just contract the job if it is that huge, if not i don;t see why such can't be handled with revenue from toll collection.

B.O.S.S.:

Blind talk. Only if one of your siblings is in that condition in order to get an education.

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Save me. When councilors earn more than professors, why can't the LG chairman be accountable for his locality?

Mustay:

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Save me. When councilors earn more than professors, why can't the LG chairman be accountable for his locality?

And whom should we direct our angers? Who's responsible for the councillors? Who's their boss? When the head is rot --- _{you know the rest.}

That's what's happening in Nigeria so stop supporting these disabled government and tell us not to expect more.

i bet that's why Former LAG VC wanted a shortened tenure for these dudes.


This tier of government (assuming they were pro-active) would have made Fash's work easier.