lexiconkabir:
@finofaya, In 1929 Hubble came up with a theory and it is regarded as the greatest in the history of astronomy, he published a velocity-time relation theory which is the basis of modern day cosmology. in years to come, with further observations, the expanding-universe theory was accepted by scientists and astronomers alike. yet astonishly before the contemporary science it has been revealed by Allah to Muhammad that indeed he(Allah) is the creator of the heavens(space) and he(Allah) is the one that expands it. Q51:47-48 "and the heaven(space) we created with might, and indeed we are its expanders and we have spread out the earth, how Excellent spreader (thereof) we are!" the verse simply points out that the space is expanding just as contemporary science proved much much later, how could Muhammad who was unlettered conceive such fact on his own? verily an all-knowing being is behind this fact! This verse of the noble Qur'an is just one out of the thousands of scientific miracles found in it(Qur'an).

If this proves anything, it's certainly not omniscience.

FOLYKAZE:


This is where you guys get things wrong. I have told you several times that you need to look beyond literal depiction of God concepts. When you look for God from personhood because of anthromorphism, you all will arrive at a wrong conclusion. Take for example Iustice is a goddess of justice represented as a woman wearing a robe with a sword and scale in her hand. You and lot others are looking for a beautiful woman while in plain sense Iustice is RULE AND EQUITY OF THE LAW.

So tell us sir, do you look fof a lady in IUSTICE or you are looking for RULE OF LAW?

Are you looking for a handsome guy in Brahma or you are looking forUltimate reality?

Are you looking for warrior with big Hammer which he swing around in Thor or you are looking for Justice?

I'm only interested in God as a person. Can I correctly say that there is no such person as Iustice, Brahma, or Thor?

finofaya:


If this proves anything, it's certainly not omniscience.

you just say that without refuting? how come that revelation that was made before the advent of telescope and contemporary science goes in line with hubble's discovery that the space actually expands?

Joshthefirst:
Finofaya, God doesn't owe you anything. I wonder what image of God you have in your head. Cursing, or refusing to believe in his existence doesn't move or change him in any way. He still remains God, and he works with those who believe. Simple.

Imagine you're God Almighty who created all things and transcends all, would you be bothered if some people refused to believe in you? I don't think so. You'd do things your way, and have mercy on whomever you choose to have mercy on, and kill whomever you choose to kill. Because you're God. Some Idio.ts think God is threatened by their disbelief. Quite foolish if you ask me.

The bible is full with God acting as if he is threatened because people refuse to believe and obey him.

lexiconkabir:
you just say that without refuting? how come that revelation that was made before the advent of telescope and contemporary science goes in line with hubble's discovery that the space actually expands?

Omniscience is knowledge of everything. You don't prove it by showing knowledge of any one thing. How do you know that God is in fact omniscient?

finofaya:


Omniscience is knowledge of everything. You don't prove it by showing knowledge of any one thing. How do you know that God is in fact omniscient?

i'm beginning to feel you are an undercover xtian. what was the outcome of hubble's discovery? the verses i sited, says 100% of what hubble discovered with sophisticated tools in the 19th century, whereas that verse has been available since the 6th century. who could reveal such idea without any stress? verily there is an omniscient being behind that fact!

lexiconkabir:
i'm beginning to feel you are an undercover xtian. what was the outcome of hubble's discovery? the verses i sited, says 100% of what hubble discovered with sophisticated tools in the 19th century, whereas that verse has been available since the 6th century. who could reveal such idea without any stress? verily there is an omniscient being behind that fact!

I've chosen not to comment on the verse since the OP is not about that. Can you just tell me how knowledge of the expansion of the universe proves that God is omniscient? Consider that the same knowledge does not prove that man is omniscient.

finofaya:


You do realise that it is theists who think that God is threatened by disbelief. That's why they discourage apostacy. Atheists simply don't think that there is God.

The OP is about why God (assuming there is one) has designed us to be unable to know him or her other than by faith.

Your post paints the picture of a confused God. If he works with only those who believe, shouldn't he leave unbelievers alone, to their devices? And if he is not bothered by disbelief, why does he not work with unbelievers? Also, how can a God not care whether one believes that he exists, but then care about whether one behaves like he exists?

I think a God that does not care if people know him is not a personal God and cannot care about any other thing that people do. He is irrelevant.

Don't be hasty. I never said God doesn't care. I said God is not threatened by anyone or anything.
Disbelief is idiocy and the height of foolishness and self-delusion(like you reading only what the words you want to see in my post, the words that make you think you're justified in your foolish unbelief).

Anyone can know God. He has been revealing himself through the ages.

..since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
Romans 1:19-20 HCSB
http://bible.com/72/rom.1.19-20.HCSB

The only reason we beg you and try to convince you to believe in Jesus Christ is because God cares about you, and we care too. But we know that if you do not accept salvation, you'll be gone. God is a just God.


I believe this answers most of the questions directed at me.

Please try and be logical in your perceptions of God next time, or at least try and be logical in your futile attempts to throw accusations at him to justify your unbelief.

macof:




But why do Christians like you, threaten non Christians especially atheists of the horror God will do if they continue with disbelief? Will a God that doesn't care if you believe or not bother punishing you for your disbelief?

Actually it's your type that make god seem like he is threatened by our disbelief...we only speak out what we read from your utterances about God

My reply above to finofaya answers your questions.

finofaya:


I've chosen not to comment on the verse since the OP is not about that. Can you just tell me how knowledge of the expansion of the universe proves that God is omniscient? Consider that the same knowledge does not prove that man is omniscient.

that verse does not address the topic? smh, it proves that God is ominiscient because God didnt use sophisticated tools like man did! He Himself is the expander!

Joshthefirst:
Don't be hasty. I never said God doesn't care. I said God is not threatened by anyone or anything.
Disbelief is idiocy and the height of foolishness and self-delusion(like you reading only what the words you want to see in my post, the words that make you think you're justified in your foolish unbelief).

Anyone can know God. He has been revealing himself through the ages.

..since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
Romans 1:19-20 HCSB
http://bible.com/72/rom.1.19-20.HCSB

The only reason we beg you and try to convince you to believe in Jesus Christ is because God cares about you, and we care too. But we know that if you do not accept salvation, you'll be gone. God is a just God.


I believe this answers most of the questions directed at me.

Please try and be logical in your perceptions of God next time, or at least try and be logical in your futile attempts to throw accusations at him to justify your unbelief.

You also asked if he would be bothered and went ahead to answer in the negative. What does "bother" mean to you?

You havent addressed the OP so far. Thanks for your concern about my salvation tho. Pray for me?

finofaya:


I'm only interested in God as a person. Can I correctly say that there is no such person as Iustice, Brahma, or Thor?

Can you tell us whom that person who happens to be God is? Name one pls

Can you explain how Thor, Iustice and Brahman are not person from their mythical illustrations like other Gods?


Pls do sire

dalaman:


The bible is full with Jehovah acting as if he is threatened because people refuse to believe and obey him.

Fixed

lexiconkabir:
that verse does not address the topic? smh, it proves that God is ominiscient because God didnt use sophisticated tools like man did! He Himself is the expander!

The verse is about how accurate the qur'an is.

What you've written isn't enough to even infer omniscience.

FOLYKAZE:


Can you tell us whom that person who happens to be God is? Name one pls

Can you explain how Thor, Iustice and Brahman are not person from their mythical illustrations like other Gods?


Pls do sire

I'm talking about real persons here bro, not mythical ones.

finofaya:


You also asked if he would be bothered and went ahead to answer in the negative. What does "bother" mean to you?

You havent addressed the OP so far. Thanks for your concern about my salvation tho. Pray for me?

I meant bother as in to be annoyed or irritated. I'll pray for you.

finofaya:


The verse is about how accurate the qur'an is.

What you've written isn't enough to even infer omniscience.

the verse show a sign of God being the all-knower of all things viz omniscient.

finofaya:


I'm talking about real persons here bro, not mythical ones.

Stop running from the question

Can you tell us whom that real person who happens to be God is? Name one pls

FOLYKAZE:


Fixed

What have you fixed? Jehovah is God so get the hell out of here and stop quoting me.

FOLYKAZE:


Stop running from the question

Can you tell us whom that real person who happens to be God is? Name one pls

That is exactly my point. If I know such a person I can't be an atheist.

lexiconkabir:
the verse show a sign of God being the all-knower of all things viz omniscient.

It doesn't. I think you underestimate what omniscience is.

finofaya:


It doesn't. I think you underestimate what omniscience is.

ok let me give you another proof. ever heard of the bigbang theory?

lexiconkabir:
ok let me give you another proof. ever heard of the bigbang theory?

Can you add 1 to any number to make it equal to infinity?

dalaman:


What have you fixed? Jehovah is God so get the hell out of here and stop quoting me.

Lol

Na fight? Dont bring that cuz I got lot of army in the bar like alcohol. Dem go scatter your body and mind if I say fight.

We can not agree with everything you know. But we can stilll understand ourselves.

There are lot of Cannaites and Greek Gods in the bible. You just have to be specific.

finofaya:


Can you add 1 to any number to make it equal to infinity?

ofcourse! infinity minus 1 added to 1 will give you infinity, in nutshell the number is:-infinity minus 1 , are you the kind of atheist that goes with pure logic or empirical proof? because with pure logic, my answer is right! I think you dont know what bigbang theory is all about.

lexiconkabir:
ofcourse! infinity minus 1 added to 1 will give you infinity, in nutshell the number is:-infinity minus 1 , are you the kind of atheist that goes with logic or empirical proof? because with logic, my answer is right! I think you dont know what bigbang theory is all about.

Infinity is not a number. Don't we all use logic and empiricism?

I'm not an expert on the big bang theory. I don't see how it is relevant to the OP. Is knowledge of astronomy equal to omniscience?

finofaya:


That is exactly my point. If I know such a person I can't be an atheist.

Keep it coming.

I think you know the difference between knowledge and acknowledge?

You cannot be atheist to something you are ignorant of. Rather, you are atheist to that thing you know it details but rejected or disaproved because you can draw evidence to it.


I read the bible and quran. I know about the Gods mentioned in it but I dont approve or acknowledge such Gods could exist.

The argument is proof for God. According to you all God

You have shifted the goal to uncreated/uncaused God who created the universe and the evidence was presented.

You are now jumping and clinging on personhood of God. And now feigning ignorance about knowledge of any God. #confusion?

Well, atheism is denial, and rejection of the existence of God. That you do not know about the God you disbelieve in is obvious lie. Quit that.

Name one God with personhood. Just one.

Do you believe in others?

finofaya:


Infinity is not a number. Don't we all use logic and empiricism?

I'm not an expert on the big bang theory. I don't see how it is relevant to the OP. Is knowledge of astronomy equal to omniscience?

are you an atheist? infinity not a number? ever heard of real analysis in mathematics? you dont get it, do you? big bang theory(1965) makes us to know that around 12-15billion years ago, the universe came into existence from one single extremely hot and dense point, then it exploded to form our universe. before the discovery of the bigbang theory, it has been revealed to muhammad Q21:30"have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then we parted them? we have made from water every living thing. will they not then believe?", how could muhammad have known that the heaven and earth was one and later exploded to form our universe? An All-knowing being was behind this fact!

FOLYKAZE:


Keep it coming.

I think you know the difference between knowledge and acknowledge?

You cannot be atheist to something you are ignorant of. Rather, you are atheist to that thing you know it details but rejected or disaproved because you can draw evidence to it.


I read the bible and quran. I know about the Gods mentioned in it but I dont approve or acknowledge such Gods could exist.

The argument is proof for God. According to you all God

You have shifted the goal to uncreated/uncaused God who created the universe and the evidence was presented.

You are now jumping and clinging on personhood of God. And now feigning ignorance about knowledge of any God. #confusion?

Well, atheism is denial, and rejection of the existence of God. That you do not know about the God you disbelieve in is obvious lie. Quit that.

Name one God with personhood. Just one.

Do you believe in others?

Babe, you're losing track of this discussion. I told you you didn't read what I wrote.

I don't believe there is a real person known as God, as per the OP. I've heard of Thor, I've heard of Jehovah, I've heard of Sango and I've heard of Zeus. None of them is real.

lexiconkabir:
are you an atheist? infinity not a number? ever heard of real analysis in mathematics? you dont get it, do you? big bang theory(1965) makes us to know that around 12-15billion years ago, the universe came into existence from one single extremely hot and dense point, then it exploded to form our universe. before the discovery of the bigbang theory, it has been revealed to muhammad Q21:30"have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then we parted them? we have made from water every living thing. will they not then believe?", how could muhammad have known that the heaven and earth was one and later exploded to form our universe? An All-knowing being was behind this fact!

Dude, infinity is not a number. This is beside the point anyway. The point I was trying to make is that knowledge of astronomy does not equal omniscience. It is an impressive feat, but it is not omniscience. Not that I agree with your interpretation of the verse tho.

FOLYKAZE:


Lol

Na fight? Dont bring that cuz I got lot of army in the bar like alcohol. Dem go scatter your body and mind if I say fight.

We can not agree with everything you know. But we can stilll understand ourselves.

There are lot of Cannaites and Greek Gods in the bible. You just have to be specific.

Na fight ooo. . Context my friend.

finofaya:


Dude, infinity is not a number. This is beside the point anyway. The point I was trying to make is that knowledge of astronomy does not equal omniscience. It is an impressive feat, but it is not omniscience. Not that I agree with your interpretation of the verse tho.

dude even if infinity is "not a number(well it is)", infinity minus 1 is undeniably a number. Alright, give me your definition of omniscience. if you dont agree with my interpretations, google is there. look it up and post it here lets see!