italo:

Now, one question for you and your like which I expect you to dodge: cc adsonstone, freecocoa, herald9,

Cc winner01 pls watch.

The Catholic Church has said that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ and has said it has observed many eucharistic occurrences affirming this.

Does that declaration make it a scientific fact?

italo i think your desperation have taken you off balance... You are asking an atheist that the wafer and 12apostles mass wine really turn into blood and flesh..

Everybody reading this will surely know that you have gone deranged because only One word for that claim is "Delusion" Chronic "Delusion"
Quote me on that anywhere, That you are too childish and gullible enough to swallow the stories of wafers turning into flesh is in no way my problem.

italo:

No. That is not hypocrisy. I'm perfectly free to choose to list only the good things to you...just like you're free to refuse to list any deeper life deed to me, even after implying they do good. You need to check the dictionary. It's free on google.

italo:

No, it's not a lie. You said those things were done by all denominations (correct me if I'm wrong). How can protestants establish universities that existed before Protestantism? How could protestants have established Easter and Christmas and the Gregorian Calendar that was named after Pope Gregory? How could protestants have preserved literacy by studying in monasteries that they didn't have in an era that they didn't exist?

.]
All of what you mentioned above is true and
good, including the body that participated... It's
Christianity, not necessarily Roman Catholicism.
[/quote]

I went further to say some deeds that other Christian bodies also did (and in saying that, I did not oppose the fact that the RCC also did that)...I pointed those other bodies contributed and what exactly they contributed.

.:

Prebysterians, Anglicans e.t.c are well known to
have ended sacrificial killings, slavery and many
other vices in so many regions. Many other good related to the ones you mentioned were brought about by non-Christian bodies.

Eg, related good by non-christian bodies such as Islamic Universities.

[quote author=italo:

No, it isnt. Because Science, in the modern sense of the word refers to the Scientific method in use today, not the ancient 'science' with with Aristotle discovered that the earth was the center of the universe?
In that sense, the Catholic Church practically invented science though Roger Bacon who put together the Scientific method at the Behest of the Pope.

italo:

You're deliberately lying when you say I said Bacon invented "scientific methods" when we both know I said he invented "the scientific method" and qualified it by saying it is the method currently in use today.

In today's science, quantification and experimentation are not enough. The same page you quoted give great detail of what Bacon invented that your ancients didn't practise. Read below:

Roger Bacon was inspired by the writings of Grosseteste. In his account of a method, Bacon described a repeating cycle of observation, hypothesis, experimentation, and the need for independent verification. He recorded the way he had conducted his experiments in precise detail, perhaps with the idea that others could reproduce and independently test his results.

italo:

Priests who are scientists...Who are inspired by the support of the Catholic Church for the sciences...many of who learnt and worked in Catholic science institutions designed to pursue science aggressively...some of whose works and research were directly sponsored by the Church...many of whom dedicated their greatest works to the Church, Pope etc...

Yes...I must give the Church credit for these works.

If you show me a priest who was inspired and encouraged by the Church to do bad and I will call his evil an evil of the Church.

You haven't mentioned such a priest so there is no hypocrisy.

italo:

I don't understand this one. Please explain or rephrase.

italo:

No, it is not. I repeat: strictly speaking, Catholicism is Christianity and Christianity is Catholicism.

The piece above was not my write-up. It was part of a wiki article to show how Christianity influenced civilization. The authors mixed non-Catholics because they were looking at Christianity in a very liberal sense. However, the vast majority of the entire page referred to specifically Catholic deeds...as I have proved by analyzing the article in detail...but you did not like to see it.

So I don't have to prove that all the people in the page are Catholics. They don't have to be.

italo:


Read then about how the Soviets killed millions of Christians to promote State Atheism.

Just Google it.

shalomm:


see your life? the soviet union that was dissolved in 1992 or which one?

italo:

Now, one question for you and your like which I expect you to dodge: cc adsonstone, freecocoa, herald9,

Cc winner01 pls watch.

The Catholic Church has said that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ and has said it has observed many eucharistic occurrences affirming this.

Does that declaration make it a scientific fact?

was an 1.English philosopher and Franciscan friar who placed considerable emphasis on the study of nature through empirical methods. 2.He is sometimes credited (mainly since the nineteenth century) as one of the earliest European advocates of the modern scientific method inspired by Aristotle and later Arabic scholars such as the Muslim scientist Alhazen .[2] However, more recent re-evaluations emphasise that he was essentially a medieval thinker, with much of his "experimental" knowledge obtained from books, in the scholastic tradition.
Bacon studied at Oxford and may have been a disciple of Grosseteste . He became a master at Oxford, lecturing on
Aristotle .3 Sometime between 1237 and 1245, he began lecturing at the University of Paris, then the centre of European intellectual life. Where he was between 1247 and 1256 is unknown, but about 1256 he became a friar in the Franciscan Order, and no longer held a teaching post.

4.After 1260, his activities were restricted by a Franciscan statute prohibiting friars from publishing books or pamphlets without prior approval.
Bacon circumvented this through his acquaintance with Cardinal Guy le Gros de Foulques, who became Pope Clement IV in 1265. Clement IV issued a mandate ordering Bacon to write to him concerning the place of philosophy within theology. Bacon sent the Pope his Opus Majus , which presented his views on how to incorporate the philosophy of Aristotle and science into a new Theology. Bacon also sent his Opus minus , De multiplicatione specierum, and possibly other works on alchemy and astrology.
Pope Clement died in 1268 and Bacon lost his protector. Some time between 1277 and 1279, Bacon was apparently imprisoned or placed under house arrest for his excessive credulity in alchemy and for his harsh regard for the other innovators of his time.

Some time after 1278 Bacon returned to the Franciscan House at Oxford, where he continued his studies and is presumed to have spent most of the rest of his life. He is said to have died in June of 1292 (the year of his last dateable writing,
Compendium studii theologiae ) and to be buried in Oxford

johnydon22:
italo i think your desperation have taken you off balance... You are asking an atheist that the wafer and 12apostles mass wine really turn into blood and flesh..

Everybody reading this will surely know that you have gone deranged because only One word for that claim is "Delusion" Chronic "Delusion"
Quote me on that anywhere, That you are too childish and gullible enough to swallow the stories of wafers turning into flesh is in no way my problem.

italo:



Now, one question for you and your like which I expect you to dodge: cc adsonstone


The Catholic Church has said that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ and has said it has observed many eucharistic occurrences affirming this.

Does that declaration make it a scientific fact?

italo:
before you come with more lies, why don't you clear the previous ones:

You said the Church voted by plus one that black had souls in a Church council.

I said tell us which council? You haven't answered.

You said defaulting Popes' fingers are cut off in a secret conclave. I said prove it. No answer.

You said a Church council with only one literate person struck out the Apocrypha.

I said mention the council. No answer.

Do you feel any remorse or shame for telling such big lies against a Church that is not harming you?

italo:
lol...

I see how you dodged the bulk of my post exposing how Plato didn't justify his claims...and how that makes it way off today's Science standard. Infact, today, scientists would call it bogus claims or 'guess' at best.

I see how you cannot show me anywhere in the book - Timaeus where Plato justified or proved his claim.

Typical Atheist who thinks that a good logical argument is made by shouting many insults at the opponent, while avoiding the issue at hand.

If the Eucharist is delusion, then Plato and Aristotle's works were also delusion.

They didn't use the standard scientific method in use today, which was invented by the Catholic Church.

plaetton:


Bullshyte in capital letters.

How can you be sooo boldly ignorant?

An organised religion, the Catholic cult, Invented
, honed and perpertuated all the manifest evils of religion.

The Catholic cult sired all the dysfunctions in the religious marketplace.

Every evil we see today in religion, the Catholic cult Invented it.

johnydon22:
[b]Hahahahahaha i don die...

The problem is that you don't know the difference between a claim and an observation.... And you are not even ashamed of it..

Plato observed the constellations in different geographical point and reached a consensus that only a spherical globe could have different constellation views in different location, it was a very simple interpretation of an observation, some may reach a conclusion that it is because the earth rested on a giant turtle..
Observation means it is very clear for all to observe, plato's phenomenon of constellations can as well be observed even now.

It was exactly like Msngr Georges Big bang postulation, he had no proof just like Plato, just a postulation based on observed phenomenon only after the hubble telescope went into orbit was the observation verified ... You see You absolutely have no knowledge of what science is and i am not supposed to start teaching you that.

Too bad you do not know that claiming that a wafer turns into a blood when it is not demonstrative for all just like observing the constellation is, it is a CLAIM and not an observation... Boy you really need to read because you far to engage on a scientific discussion or argument with me.

You could not maintain an argument without spamming the thread with wikipedia copy and paste; quite childish and degrading.

Let us hope you won't ask how an observation and a claim is the same thing [/b]

Gynacologist:
pls kindly tro mo light on do?

AreaFada2:
At the risk of being labelled atheist, I have in recent years questioned religion as practised by Africans now. As a guy born into Christianity I'm concerned about the way religion has displaced reason at a time we seriously need it for social and scientific advancement. We are far behind other societies that function on logic and reason. We go to those places to live, ask for help and spend holiday. Yet we refuse to examine our own ways to see where we got it wrong.

senbonzakurakageyoshi:
Away from the whole distraction with ITalo's catholicism and denominational christianity and back to the main topic at hand:

I would like to think the main problem with modern African religion and the modern African religious construct is actually something ancient: fear. We are too afraid to question what we've been told. And funnily enough, that fear wasn't invented with Christianity or Islam - it was a part of the religions our forefathers adhered to. The gods in our traditional religions were swift, vengeful and ruthless. The chief priests held the people in awe of the gods' powers and threatened followers with punishment if they displeased the gods. And, of course, it was only convenient for those who brought us the religions we adhere to today to key into that already existing formula to achieve the same results. We modern religious adherents inherited that fear from our old religions and adapted it into modern religion. God is always hovering over our shoulders with a whip to hand out punishments whenever we default - especially when we refuse to believe in him. Which makes it no surprise that, in the same way our forebears had to offer sacrifices to keep the gods pleased and keep their blessings coming, modern African adherents have to sow seeds and make constant offerings to make God happy and keep his blessings coming. All this in spite of the fact that we still hold the creed that God is a benevolent, all-loving God.

Modern African religions, in my purview, are not religions in its purest form. It is an amalgamation of tenets of our old traditional religions (especially the use of fear to subjugate and control) and old European/Middle Eastern dogma all wrapped up in a modernist package. And till we learn to throw off that cloak of fear, that idea that God wants to remain hidden in a shroud of mystery and, as a results, we shouldn't ask questions, we will continue to fall victim to the negative aspects of religious beliefs.

mctowel01:

Where are your kind?I feel sad living with the sort of mindless religious people Africans have become. I sometimes wish we could simply separate Africans into secular and religious, then watch the results of progress makes. ...Then the world will conclude for themselves.