I seek refuge in Allah from all evil.

In the Name of Allah the beneficient the merciful.

May the Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon the best and the seal of all prophets. And upon his household, his companions, and those that seek and follow the path of guidance.

As for what follows; Assalamu alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakat.


This thread was opened based on the request of the brother usermane, who apparently seems not to accept the hadith/sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be peace).

The brother was asked to explain what the bolded in the ayaat below stands for, so let's await his response.

''Do not make [your] calling of the Messenger among yourselves as the call of one of you to another. Already Allah knows those of you who slip away, concealed by others. So let those beware who dissent from the Prophet's order, lest fitnah strike them or a painful punishment.''{Qur'an 24:63}.

"No, by your Lord, they do not believe until they submit to your adjudication in all disputes between them, then they do not find themselves oppressed with your decisions and they completely submit." {Qur'an 4:65}

We pray that Allah in His infinite mercy guide us to the straight and right path.

grownaira:


This thread was opened based on the request of the brother usermane, who apparently seems not to accept the hadith/sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be peace).

The brother was asked to explain what the bolded in the ayaat below stands for, so let's await his response.

''Do not make [your] calling of the Messenger among yourselves as the call of one of you to another. Already Allah knows those of you who slip away, concealed by others. So let those beware who dissent from the Prophet's order, lest fitnah strike them or a painful punishment.''{Qur'an 24:63}.

"No, by your Lord, they do not believe until they submit to your adjudication in all disputes between them, then they do not find themselves oppressed with your decisions and they completely submit." {Qur'an 4:65}

We pray that Allah in His infinite mercy guide us to the straight and right path.

I did tell you, didn't I? Unless you can explain why for over 100 years of Muhammad Prophethood & early Islam, there was no official collection of Hadith, you are wasting our time.

As for Qur'an 24:63 which you pointed, it has no relevance to the hearsay about Muhammad compiled by Bukhari, Muslim or Malik no earlier than 120 years after Muhammad 's death. No Muslim can be confronted of dissenting from the Prophet order for rejecting these hearsay. Whatever Muhammad ordered have to be backed by the Qur'an. If it isn't backed by the Qur'an, then evidently it cannot be Muhammad 's order, so it isn't Islamic. This lead us the other verse you cited.

To best understand Qur'an 4:65, it is essential realize what Muhammad was required to judge or abjure by. Does Muhammad judge by his reason, wishes or what? We look at the 40th verse from this verse:

Qur'an 4:105
Lo! We reveal unto thee the Scripture
with the truth, that thou mayst judge between
mankind by that which Allah showeth thee. And be
not thou a pleader for the treacherous

As the above and several verses confirm, Muhammad is bound by the Qur'an and cannot pass judgements outside it on Islam. Hadith books are filled with laws that aren't backed by Qur'an, such cannot be Muhammad 's traditions.

Peace!

usermane:


I did tell you, didn't I? Unless you can explain why for over 100 years of Muhammad Prophethood & early Islam, there was no official collection of Hadith, you are wasting our time.

It is either you are lying and by extension covering the truth, or you are ignorant (in the real sense of the word) of Islamic history. if the first is the case, then i feel sorry for you, and I pray to Allah to guide yo aright. If the second is the case, then i will enlighten you a bit;

In the year of 10 Hijri the Muslims opened the land of Bahrain and conquered it. The Prophet appointed Sayyidina Amr bin Hazam Al Ansari as the governor of Yemen. Upon that occasion, the Prophet had Sayyidina Ubay ibn Ka’b write a booklet in relation to the orders of Shariah. This booklet was given to Amr bin Hazam Al Ansari. In the booklet, apart from general advices, orders pertaining to the following matters were detailed: Purity, Salah, Zakat, Hajj, Umrah, Jihad Fi Sabilillah, Booty, Governmental administration and Educational organisation etc. The Companion of the Prophet Amr bin Hazam acted in accordance with the advice and orders detailed in this booklet.

After his death, it went into the ownership of his grandson Abu Bakr, Imam Zahri (died 125AH) stated: ‘I have seen this booklet with my own eyes.

It is also from this very book that Imam Zahri رحمه الله used to teach his students. The very Ahadith that were found in the booklet of Sayyidina Amr bin Hazam can be found in many of the great books of Ahadith today (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Muwatta Imam Malik, Sunan Abu Dawood, Nasai, Ibn Majah, Jami Tirmidhi, Sunan Baihaqi, Ibn Abi Shaibah, Sahih Ibn Habban, etc).

The written accounts and manuscripts of the Companions of the Prophet have been preserved and presented in the form of a book to this present day. Even after the time of the Companions of the Prophet the knowledge of writing, memorising and teaching the Ahadith of the Prophet has been continuously flourishing and carried from generation to generation. Sayyidina Umar bin Abdul Aziz made a great effort upon the Scholars of Islam to preserve the sayings and teachings of the Prophet , through writing, memorising and teaching the masses. It was the very time of Umar bin Abdul Aziz that we find such Imams as Abu Bakr bin Hazam (died 120AH) and Imam Ibn Shahab Zahri (died 125AH).

Imam Malik (born 93AH – died 179AH) resided in Madinah Munawarah and taught the Hadith of the Prophet from the pulpit in the Masjid of the Prophet . The book that has been recorded with the very Ahadith that Imam Malik would relate in his Hadith classes in the Masjid of the Prophet can be found even today in the book known as Muwatta Imam Malik, in the same form of Hadith, as it was recorded in the lifetime of Prophet.

(Please do yourself a favor and get/study the book Al-Bidayah wan Nihayah by Ibn kathr, it will help you a lot when it comes to the classical knowledge of Islamic History)

usermane:
As for Qur'an 24:63 which you pointed, it has no relevance to the hearsay about Muhammad compiled by Bukhari, Muslim or Malik no earlier than 120 years after Muhammad 's death. No Muslim can be confronted of dissenting from the Prophet order for rejecting these hearsay. Whatever Muhammad ordered have to be backed by the Qur'an. If it isn't backed by the Qur'an, then evidently it cannot be Muhammad 's order, so it isn't Islamic. This lead us the other verse you cited.

To best understand Qur'an 4:65, it is essential realize what Muhammad was required to judge or abjure by. Does Muhammad judge by his reason, wishes or what? We look at the 40th verse from this verse:



As the above and several verses confirm, Muhammad is bound by the Qur'an and cannot pass judgements outside it on Islam. Hadith books are filled with laws that aren't backed by Qur'an, such cannot be Muhammad 's traditions.

Peace!

Your knowledge of the interpretation of the Qur'an is not only ridiculous, but also pathetic. so i am not gona say much on this. Allah azza wa jal sent the Prophet with the Qur'an, and He commanded the Prophet to explain to mankind the Qur'an which was sent to them. This is simply because the Qur'an needs to be understood as Allah wants it to be understood, and not the way we choose to understand it.

"With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Qur'an), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought".[Qur'an 16:44]

No wonder you and your likes always interpret the Qur'an in a pathetic manner. You don't accept the hadith which shades more light to the Ummah towards better understanding the divine Book from Allah, but you choose to interpret and explain the Qur'an yourselves in a way that best suits your whims and caprices. The funny thing is that you expect people to accept your interpretations. of course some of the ignorant and gullible will.

Abdullah bin Mas’ud once said to the people, “Today you people are in a time when desires are subservient to knowledge (of Deen) whereas a time shall come when knowledge will be subservient to desires.” (Ihyaa Vol.1 pg 93)

The famous Shaykh Abu ‘Umar Zujaji (student of Junaid Baghdaadi) said, “People during the period of Ignorance followed that which their minds and dispositions approved of. Rasulullah ﷺ then came and referred them to the Shari’ah and obedience. The sound mind is therefore that mind which approves of that which the Shari’ah approves of and which disapproves of that which the Shari’ah disapproves of.” (I'tisaam Vol.1 pg 67)

Imam Shatbi said, “The Shari’ah is there to remove people from the dictates of their whims.” (Ibid)

Abdul Qadir Jilani said, “Shirk does not entail only worshipping idols, but it is also when you follow the dictates of your Nafs.” This, he mentioned while explaining the verse: “Have you seen the one who has taken his whims as a Ilaah (who follows the dictates of his desires).”

grownaira:


It is either you are lying and by extension covering the truth, or you are ignorant (in the real sense of the word) of Islamic history. if the first is the case, then i feel sorry for you, and I pray to Allah to guide yo aright. If the second is the case, then i will enlighten you a bit;

In the year of 10 Hijri the Muslims opened the land of Bahrain and conquered it. The Prophet appointed Sayyidina Amr bin Hazam Al Ansari as the governor of Yemen. Upon that occasion, the Prophet had Sayyidina Ubay ibn Ka’b write a booklet in relation to the orders of Shariah. This booklet was given to Amr bin Hazam Al Ansari. In the booklet, apart from general advices, orders pertaining to the following matters were detailed: Purity, Salah, Zakat, Hajj, Umrah, Jihad Fi Sabilillah, Booty, Governmental administration and Educational organisation etc. The Companion of the Prophet Amr bin Hazam acted in accordance with the advice and orders detailed in this booklet.

After his death, it went into the ownership of his grandson Abu Bakr, Imam Zahri (died 125AH) stated: ‘I have seen this booklet with my own eyes.

It is also from this very book that Imam Zahri رحمه الله used to teach his students. The very Ahadith that were found in the booklet of Sayyidina Amr bin Hazam can be found in many of the great books of Ahadith today (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Muwatta Imam Malik, Sunan Abu Dawood, Nasai, Ibn Majah, Jami Tirmidhi, Sunan Baihaqi, Ibn Abi Shaibah, Sahih Ibn Habban, etc).

The written accounts and manuscripts of the Companions of the Prophet have been preserved and presented in the form of a book to this present day. Even after the time of the Companions of the Prophet the knowledge of writing, memorising and teaching the Ahadith of the Prophet has been continuously flourishing and carried from generation to generation. Sayyidina Umar bin Abdul Aziz made a great effort upon the Scholars of Islam to preserve the sayings and teachings of the Prophet , through writing, memorising and teaching the masses. It was the very time of Umar bin Abdul Aziz that we find such Imams as Abu Bakr bin Hazam (died 120AH) and Imam Ibn Shahab Zahri (died 125AH).

Imam Malik (born 93AH – died 179AH) resided in Madinah Munawarah and taught the Hadith of the Prophet from the pulpit in the Masjid of the Prophet . The book that has been recorded with the very Ahadith that Imam Malik would relate in his Hadith classes in the Masjid of the Prophet can be found even today in the book known as Muwatta Imam Malik, in the same form of Hadith, as it was recorded in the lifetime of Prophet

Well, no one will dispute Muhammad wrote instructions on varying issues even beyond Islam for his people, after all Muhammad was also a political leader of a multi-religious, multi-cultural society. The question is, are these instructions revelations as the Qur'an or just Muhammad 's personal instruction?
If the booklet on shariah you mentioned above covered divine revelation not covered in Qur'an, how come the book is extant and what necessitated Umar ibn Abdul Aziz to call for collection of Hadith 85 years after? If Hadith were compiled as divine revelation at the time of Muhammmad, like the Qur'an, we will have only one consistent book by one writer containing all Hadith of Muhammad, instead of multiple books with varying Hadith by multiple authors who lived at different times after Muhammad.

The first official attempt to collect Hadith as Qur'an was by Umar ibn Khattab. But Umar is reported to have reversed his decision burnt the unofficial writings of Hadith and called Muslims to Qur'an Alone. Umar ibn Abdul Aziz(717-720) attempted compiling the Hadith about 80 years after this, no Hadith book dating that era can be accessed today. The oldest Hadith book(Malik Muwatta) date no earlier than 754 AD, over 100 years after Muhammad.

I recommend you see this; https://flamesoftruth./2014/11/08/look-again-in-those-books/

Your knowledge of the interpretation of the Qur'an is not only ridiculous, but also pathetic. so i am not gona say much on this. Allah azza wa jal sent the Prophet with the Qur'an, and He commanded the Prophet to explain to mankind the Qur'an which was sent to them. This is simply because the Qur'an needs to be understood as Allah wants it to be understood, and not the way we choose to understand it.

"With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Qur'an), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought".[Qur'an 16:44]

Verses of Qur'an attest that it is a self explanatory and fully detailed book(Qur'an 6:114, 7:52, 10:37, 12:111, 16:89). The phrase(bayyinah) you translated in 16:44 as "explain clearly" is more appropriately translated as make known/manifest/plain. Muhammad alone receives the revelation. He make the revelation known/manifest/plain(bayyinah) to the people. This is the implication of the verse.

No wonder you and your likes always interpret the Qur'an in a pathetic manner. You don't accept the hadith which shades more light to the Ummah towards better understanding the divine Book from Allah, but you choose to interpret and explain the Qur'an yourselves in a way that best suits your whims and caprices. The funny thing is that you expect people to accept your interpretations. of course some of the ignorant and gullible will.

Suit yourself. You follow traditions of men instead of keeping the book of God. There is nothing of the Qur'an you keep today. You 've distorted the Islamic principles of monotheism, peace and justice in order to keep the traditions of your elders(Hadith). How ever deviant we are, we are tolerant and never shove our teachings down any one 's throat. You can't boast of that. Despite your population relative to ours, your petrol dollars, your institutions including universities, organisations, banks, Mosques, websites, bookstores and seminars worldwide, you rely heavily on censorship, force and double dealing to propagate your creed.

salamAlaykum

May Allah(swt) guide us to the straight path.
Praying(salaat) was commanded upon us in the Quran.
Where and how did u learn how to pray,definitely the Quran did not teach you that.
Hadith did. Refuting Hadith in totality is inconsistent with the deen. WE HAVE SAHEEH narrations just like we also have the fabricated ones. ALLAHU ALAM

salamAlaykum

May Allah(swt) guide us to the straight path.
Praying(salaat) was commanded upon us in the Quran.
Where and how did we learn how to pray,definitely the Quran did not teach us that.
Hadith did. Refuting Hadith in totality is inconsistent with the deen. WE HAVE SAHEEH narrations just like we also have the fabricated ones. ALLAHU ALAM

Salaam OneOpinion, I didn't learn salat from Hadith. I learnt it from my parent who also learnt it from their parents, not Hadith. 99% of Muslims did not learn salat from Hadith book but from communal practice of salat. And the reason for this being that Hadith books do not give a consistent, comprehensive methodology for salat. In some Hadith, Al Fatiah is not compulsory, in some Muhammad recite aloud in Dhuhur and Asr, in others sitting between sajda is not mentioned at all and in a few, Muhammad perform salat 3 periods daily, not 5. In short, you could study salat from Hadith and come up with a form that is different from what is orthodox.

Sahih Bukhari》Book of Oath and Vows
Narrated by Abu Huraira:
A man entered the mosque and started praying while
Allah's Apostle was sitting somewhere in the mosque .
Then (after finishing the prayer ) the man came to the
Prophet and greeted him. The Prophet said to him, "Go
back and pray, for you have not prayed. The man went
back, and having prayed, he came and greeted the
Prophet. The Prophet after returning his greetings said,
"Go back and pray, for you did not pray." On the third
time the man said, "(O Allah's Apostle!) teach me (how
to pray)." The Prophet said, "When you get up for the
prayer , perform the ablution properly and then face the
Qibla and say Takbir (Allahu Akbar), and then recite of
what you know of the Qur'an , and then bow, and remain
in this state till you feel at rest in bowing, and then
raise your head and stand straight; and then prostrate
till you feel at rest in prostration, and then sit up till you
feel at rest while sitting; and then prostrate again till
you feel at rest in prostration; and then get up and stand straight and do this all in your prayer

In the above, Muhammad supposedly teach a man to pray. There is no mention of Iqama and just any verse one knows may be recited, not necessarily Al fatiah. See below for other Hadith confirming 3 periods for salat and recitation of Dhuhur and Asr salat aloud and a description of Muhammad salat acts without sitting between prostration.


If the Quran did not give a predefined format for salat, it mean there is no defined format of holding salat; a flexible ritual not fixed. It doesn't mean the Quran alone is insufficient guide to Islam. God mention standing, invocation, prostration for salat (Quran 17:110, 4:101-103), regardless of how these are done, this is salat in its basic form. Even before Islam, the Arabs understood this.

usermane:
Salaam OneOpinion, I didn't learn salat from Hadith. I learnt it from my parent who also learnt it from their parents, not Hadith. 99% of Muslims did not learn salat from Hadith book but from communal practice of salat.

False. Majority of we Muslims did learn the acts of prayers firstly from their parents. they learn to perfect their prayers from school, wia they are taught the various do's and don'ts of sallat. And of course are obtainable from numerous sahih hadiths. Same applies to our parents, and then dia parents, and so on.

usermane:
And the reason for this being that Hadith books do not give a consistent, comprehensive methodology for salat.

False. Abeg stop disgracing yourself by continuously showcasing your ignorance. A common primary school student of Islamic studies will give you a detailed, consistent, comprehensive methodology for salat as obtained from the sunnah of the prophet Muhammad, upon whom be the peace and blessings of Allah.

usermane:
In some Hadith, Al Fatiah is not compulsory,

Lies. No single sahih hadith negates Fatiha in salaat. Not even in voluntary salaat (nafilah). Infact, the prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him is reported to have said what can be translated as : “There is no prayer for one who does not recite the Essence of the Book (al-Faatihah).”.
We've had enough of your foolish lies, please stop it, because you are only befooling yourself.

usermane:
in some Muhammad recite aloud in Dhuhur and Asr,

Reciting out loud in the prayers in which the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him predominantly recited out loud, and silently in the prayers in which he predominantly recited silently, is one of the Sunnahs of prayer, not one of the obligatory duties. So if a person recites what he is required to recite, silently or out loud, then he has fulfilled his duty. But it is better to recite out loud in the prayers where doing so is customary, as in Fajr, Maghrib, Isha and Jumu’ah prayers. If a person deliberately does not recite out loud when he is leading the prayer, his prayer is valid but it is lacking.

usermane:
in others sitting between sajda is not mentioned at all[/b]

True. And it is mentioned in many others too.That's why the act is voluntary.

[quote author=usermane post=37008042]and in a few, Muhammad perform salat 3 periods daily, not 5.

sebi i don tell you say we are tired with your lies? Provide evidence to back up this claim, or bury your face in shame.

In short, you could study salat from Hadith and come up with a form that is different from what is orthodox.

False in the absolute sense.

[quote author=usermane post=37008042]Sahih Bukhari》Book of Oath and Vows
Narrated by Abu Huraira:
A man entered the mosque and started praying while
Allah's Apostle was sitting somewhere in the mosque .
Then (after finishing the prayer ) the man came to the
Prophet and greeted him. The Prophet said to him, "Go
back and pray, for you have not prayed. The man went
back, and having prayed, he came and greeted the
Prophet. The Prophet after returning his greetings said,
"Go back and pray, for you did not pray." On the third
time the man said, "(O Allah's Apostle!) teach me (how
to pray)." The Prophet said, "When you get up for the
prayer , perform the ablution properly and then face the
Qibla and say Takbir (Allahu Akbar), and then recite of
what you know of the Qur'an , and then bow, and remain
in this state till you feel at rest in bowing, and then
raise your head and stand straight; and then prostrate
till you feel at rest in prostration, and then sit up till you
feel at rest while sitting; and then prostrate again till
you feel at rest in prostration; and then get up and stand straight and do this all in your prayer"


In the above, Muhammad supposedly teach a man to pray. There is no mention of Iqama and just any verse one knows may be recited, not necessarily Al fatiah.

As for Iqamah; so your teacher (the internet) no teach you say dem no dey do iqamah for voluntary salaat?

As for fatihah; again that your teacher no teach you say in any salaat, be it obligatory or voluntary, Fatihah is always contant, while other surahs are variables wiaby one recites that which comes easy for him/her?

usermane:
See below for other Hadith confirming 3 periods for salat[/b]

I pity your level of ignorance which you always shamelessly showcase. So if your employer combined your august and September salary and pays you this month, you will tell everybody that "na only one month salary them give me" abi. is olryt, continue.

[quote author=usermane post=37008042]and recitation of Dhuhur and Asr salat aloud and a description of Muhammad salat acts without sitting between prostration.

Already treated above.

usermane:
If the Quran did not give a predefined format for salat, it mean there is no defined format of holding salat; a flexible ritual not fixed.

Na lie abeg. the Qur'an tells us, what can be translated as:

“Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad) you have a good example to follow” [Qur'an 33:21]

So that's why we Muslims follow the example of the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him when praying. Shikena.

usermane:
It doesn't mean the Quran alone is insufficient guide to Islam.

Of course the Qur'an is absolutely sufficient for mankind, no doubt about that.

usermane:
God mention standing, invocation, prostration for salat (Quran 17:110, 4:101-103), regardless of how these are done, this is salat in its basic form. Even before Islam, the Arabs understood this.

Thrash. The fact is God mentioned all those, and He did not leave us to stipulate for ourselves how to do them, but rather, He commanded us to follow the examples of His prophet.


Shikena.

I will repost my last word and clarify my stand that Hadith books are filled with inconsistent description of salat which imply that different readers of Hadith books will reach different conclusion of salat depending on the Hadith the readers find. Below, I will list 4 Hadith that sharply contrast from the orthodox conception of salat:

Sahih Bukhari》Oath and Vows

Narrated by Abu Huraira:
A man entered the mosque and started praying while Allah's Apostle was sitting somewhere in the mosque . Then (after finishing the prayer ) the man came to the Prophet and greeted him. The Prophet said to him, "Go back and pray, for you have not prayed. The man went back, and having prayed, he came and greeted the Prophet. The Prophet after returning his greetings said, "Go back and pray, for you did not pray." On the third time the man said, "(O Allah's Apostle!) teach me (how to pray)." The Prophet said, z "When you get up for the prayer , perform the ablution properly and then face the Qibla and say Takbir (Allahu Akbar), and then recite of what you know of the Qur'an , and then bow, and remain in this state till you feel at rest in bowing, and then raise your head and stand straight; and then prostrate till you feel at rest in prostration, and then sit up till you feel at rest while sitting; and then prostrate again till you feel at rest in prostration; and then get up and stand straight, and do all this in all your prayers."

We find Hadith that imply Iqama must be done prior to taking and Fatiah must be said in all salat. The above Hadith teaches salat. Note that there is no mention of Iqama here, neither is Al Fatiah implied as compulsory but any chapter at all may be recited.

Sahih Bukhari》Friday Prayer

Narrated Abu Hazim bin Dinar:

The people went to Sahl bin Sa`d As-Sa`idi and told him that they had different opinions regarding the wood of the pulpit . They asked him about it and he said, "By Allah, I know of what wood the pulpit was made, and no doubt I saw it on the very first day when Allah's Apostle took his seat on it. Allah's Apostle sent for such and such an Ansari woman (and Sahl mentioned her name) and said to her, 'Order your slave -carpenter to prepare for me some pieces of wood (i.e. pulpit ) on which I may sit at the time of addressing the people.' So she ordered her slave -carpenter and he made it from the tamarisk of the forest and brought it (to the woman). The woman sent that ( pulpit ) to Allah's Apostle who ordered it to be placed here. Then I saw Allah's Apostle praying on it and then bowed on it. Then he stepped back, got down and prostrated on the ground near the foot of the pulpit and again ascended the pulpit. After finishing the prayer he faced the people and said, 'I have done this so that you may follow me and learn the way I pray.

Although we find hadith implying sitting between prostrations to be major act of salat. In contrary, the above Hadith Muhammad supposedly teaches salat. Note that all the physical acts including standing, bowing and prostration are mentioned but sitting between prostration is not.

Sahih Bukhari》Book of Salat

Narrated by Abu Qatada:

The Messenger of Allah ( ﷺ) led us in prayer and recited in the first two rak'ahs of the noon and afternoon prayers Surat al-Fitiha and two (other) surahs. And he would sometimes recite loud enough for us the verses. He would prolong the first rak'ah more than the second. And he acted similarly in the morning

Today Muslims recite their dhuhr and Asr silently. Of course there are hadith confirming this, but on the reverse, some hadith like the above relate that Muhammad did recite aloud in his dhuhur and asr salat.

Sahih Muslim》Book of salat, Number 1515:

“Ibn 'Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed the noon and afternoon prayers together, and the sunset and Isha' prayers together without being in a state of fear or in a state of journey."

Several hadith list 5 periods for daily salat. This is contrary to the above hadith which reveal that Muhammad recognized 3 periods daily instead of 5 separate periods for salat. One period for morning salat, another for noon or afternoon and the third for sunset or night salat.

There you have it. In the midst of these contradictory hadith, one is left to cherrypick in order to perform salat. This is exactly what the Imams of fiqh have done. And hence orthodox Muslims learnt their salat from their Imams not the Hadith books and definitely not the Quran.

usermane:
I will repost my last word and clarify my stand that Hadith books are filled with inconsistent description of salat which imply that different readers of Hadith books will reach different conclusion of salat depending on the Hadith the readers find. Below, I will list 4 Hadith that sharply contrast from the orthodox conception of salat:

You mean you will continue beating around the bush and repost trash as usual.

usermane:
We find Hadith that imply Iqama must be done prior to taking and Fatiah must be said in all salat. The above Hadith teaches salat. Note that there is no mention of Iqama here, neither is Al Fatiah implied as compulsory but any chapter at all may be recited.

Go back to your teacher (the internet), your teacher should have taught you that the Iqamah is not prescribed for voluntary (nafilah) salat,which the man actually prayed.

Your teacher should have also taught you the numerous ahaadith that backs up this particular hadith prescribes the inclusiveness and obligation of reciting Fatihah in all salaat (be it Fard or Nafilah). I have mentioned one in an earlier post.

usermane:
Although we find hadith implying sitting between prostrations to be major act of salat. In contrary, the above Hadith Muhammad supposedly teaches salat. Note that all the physical acts including standing, bowing and prostration are mentioned but sitting between prostration is not.

Few hadith shows the validity of sitting between two prostration. and you lied when you said the hadith implies that sitting between two prostration is a major act of salaat. bal, what it is a voluntary act.

usermane:
Today Muslims recite their dhuhr and Asr silently. Of course there are hadith confirming this, but on the reverse, some hadith like the above relate that Muhammad did recite aloud in his dhuhur and asr salat.

na wa for you oo0. I wonder why you keep beating around the bush. This subject matter has bn treated in an earlier post. If you don't get it, then I am sorry, you are on your own.

usermane:
Several hadith list 5 periods for daily salat. This is contrary to the above hadith which reveal that Muhammad recognized 3 periods daily instead of 5 separate periods for salat. One period for morning salat, another for noon or afternoon and the third for sunset or night salat.

You see your life? Aren't you tired of shamelessly twisting the truth just to make valid your points? The hadith you quoted makes it crystally clear that the Prophet upon whom be the peace and blessings of Allah joined between two salaat (the arabic version says "...jama'a bayna...".

Now answer me; How does combining two different items makes them one? How does your employer paying you august and september salary same day implies that you've only received one month salary?

o boy, I tire for you ooO.

usermane:
There you have it. In the midst of these contradictory hadith, one is left to cherrypick in order to perform salat. This is exactly what the Imams of fiqh have done. And hence orthodox Muslims learnt their salat from their Imams not the Hadith books and definitely not the Quran.

Abegee, you did not make an atom weight of sense, so dia4 all that you said is trashy.

Biko. go back and get more knowledge of the Deen, at least from that your teacher (the internet).


Wassalaamullahi alaa manittaba'al Huda.

Salaam!
I will be introducing other questions regarding the authority of hadith books. For now, I choose to disregard any one bent on personal attack and disrespect emanating from religious zealotry. When you grant religious zealots opportunity to express themselves, they never fail to disappoint you.

Do traditions precede over the Scripture?

By "traditions", I mean the so called Hadith and sunnah. It is a known fact that in orthodox, mainstream Islamic jurisprudence, hadith take precedence over Qur'an. This result in traditional Muslims violating many laws and doctrines in the Quran, in order to keep their traditions which often negate the Quran. Here are two good examples:

1. The Quran(2:190, 60:8-9) explicitly forbid aggression against peaceful disbelievers. Peaceful disbelievers have a right to live and interact in Muslim societies.

But here is what Hadith books state about Jews and Christians in Arabia;

Sunan Abu Dawud》Tribute, Spoils and Rulership:::

ِJabir bin ‘Abd Allah said that he was told by ‘Umar bin Al Khattab that he heard the Apostle of Allaah( ﷺ ) say “I will certainly expel the Jews and the Christians from Arabia and I shall leave only Muslims in it.”

While this ban is not enforce all over Saudi Arabia today, non-Muslim are banned from entering Makkah or Madinah whether for a relative "s funeral or visit of a sick relative. If a non-Muslim in either cities reverts from Islam, he must leave the city, abandoning his home, family and job or will be thrown out by Shari'ah authorities in the city. This clearly contradict the peaceful and just teachings of the Quran, but regardless majority of orthodox Muslims accept it.


2. Over and over, the Quran explains the futility of taking intercessors and hoping for their intercession on the day of judgement.

Quran 2:48:::
And guard yourselves against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be received from it, nor will they be helped.

Quran 6:51::
And warn by it(Qur'an) those who fear that they will be gathered before their Lord - for them besides Him will be no protector and no intercessor - that they might become righteous

Yet, Orthodox Muslims at the expense of Quranic teachings keep traditions hailing Muhammad as an intercessor and promising them his intercession.


Suffice to add that the same Muslims who insist on ablution before holding Quran and who read hundreds of it verses daily, do not abide by its teachings. As the Qur'an(25:30) foretell, Muslims have deserted the Qur'an. Traditional Muslim jurists have abrogated, annulled or circumvented most of Quranic teachings with hearsay dubbed as "Hadith and Sunnah". The Books of hadith and fiqh now form the law of traditional Muslims and by allowing this, Muslims have disregarded the exclusivity of the authority of Quran for Islamic law.

We conclude here by pondering on the following verses:

Quran 68:35-38:::
Then will We treat the Muslims like the criminals?
What is [the matter] with you? How do you judge?
Or do you have a book in which you learn
That you have surely therein what you choose?

By accepting other books like Hadith and Fiqh to dictate their religion, Muslims answer affirmatively to the third of the above questions of God! Yes, these orthodox Muslims aside the Quran have books which they learn, in which they have everything they choose; from circumcision to stoning adulterers, from beards to hijab, from aggressive military invasion of non-Muslim land to slavery.

The Quran alone stipulates law in Islam, any law that cannot be confirmed by the Quran is not Islam. Nothing precede over the Quran!
Peace!

usermane:
Salaam!
I will be introducing other questions regarding the authority of hadith books. For now, I choose to disregard any one bent on personal attack and disrespect emanating from religious zealotry. When you grant religious zealots opportunity to express themselves, they never fail to disappoint you.

Do traditions precede over the Scripture?

By "traditions", I mean the so called Hadith and sunnah. It is a known fact that in orthodox, mainstream Islamic jurisprudence, hadith take precedence over Qur'an. This result in traditional Muslims violating many laws and doctrines in the Quran, in order to keep their traditions which often negate the Quran. Here are two good examples:

1. The Quran(2:190, 60:8-9) explicitly forbid aggression against peaceful disbelievers. Peaceful disbelievers have a right to live and interact in Muslim societies.

But here is what Hadith books state about Jews and Christians in Arabia;



While this ban is not enforce all over Saudi Arabia today, non-Muslim are banned from entering Makkah or Madinah whether for a relative "s funeral or visit of a sick relative. If a non-Muslim in either cities reverts from Islam, he must leave the city, abandoning his home, family and job or will be thrown out by Shari'ah authorities in the city. This clearly contradict the peaceful and just teachings of the Quran, but regardless majority of orthodox Muslims accept it.


2. Over and over, the Quran explains the futility of taking intercessors and hoping for their intercession on the day of judgement.





Yet, Orthodox Muslims at the expense of Quranic teachings keep traditions hailing Muhammad as an intercessor and promising them his intercession.


Suffice to add that the same Muslims who insist on ablution before holding Quran and who read hundreds of it verses daily, do not abide by its teachings. As the Qur'an(25:30) foretell, Muslims have deserted the Qur'an. Traditional Muslim jurists have abrogated, annulled or circumvented most of Quranic teachings with hearsay dubbed as "Hadith and Sunnah". The Books of hadith and fiqh now form the law of traditional Muslims and by allowing this, Muslims have disregarded the exclusivity of the authority of Quran for Islamic law.

We conclude here by pondering on the following verses:


By accepting other books like Hadith and Fiqh to dictate their religion, Muslims answer affirmatively to the third of the above questions of God! Yes, these orthodox Muslims aside the Quran have books which they learn, in which they have everything they choose; from circumcision to stoning adulterers, from beards to hijab, from aggressive military invasion of non-Muslim land to slavery.

The Quran alone stipulates law in Islam, any law that cannot be confirmed by the Quran is not Islam. Nothing precede over the Quran!
Peace!

Guy, if you want us to continue this discussion, answer the simple question I asked you regarding combining salaat. I will repeat the question[b] " If your employer pays you august and september salary altogether this month, will you come tell people that you've only be paid one month salary? same way you reduced five salaat to three just because some wia combined and performed at the same period?[/b]

You don't just keep jumping from one point to another when cornered. It simply implies that one is wasting his/her time when discussing with you, because your acts appears to be that of someone that never accepts the truth. When you have nothing to use in backing up a claim you make, you just jump and make other claims. Stop dodging questions, you've dodged many already. Stop wasting our time please.

Reading through the lines of this very post, it appears funny that even the Qur'an you claim to accept, you have little to absolutely no knowledge of it.

Like I said, I will respond to the post only when you answer the questions.

Finally, we Muslims believe and accept the Qur'an because we believe the comes from the Lord of the world, via the angel Jibril(as) to the Prophet Muhammad upon whom be the peace and blessings of Allah.

We also accept the instructions of the Prophet Muhammad upon whom be peace and blessings of Allah, and we try to the best of our ability to leave upon upon his sunnah, not because he in particular asks us to, but because the Lord that sent him asks us to.

Allah azza wa jal says whta can be translated as:

“Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad) you have a good example to follow” [Qur'an 33:21]



Wassalaamullahi ala manittaba'al-huda