GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! - Religion (7) - Nairaland
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| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 2:17pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
vooks:Sure He did. He also imparted His Righteousness by His Spirit! Consider this: Now both did not happen at separate times however, the absence of the expression of that imparted is a sure sign that of the absence of faith. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight 27 to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Colossians 1:21,22,27,28 After we are reconciled, there is an expected fruit holiness, unblameable and unreproveable life in God's sight! By trying or struggling? NO By surrendering to the faith of Christ Who lives in us! |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 2:22pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Scholar8200:So, what happened after He IMPUTED it? You became righteous. Before God, you are as righteous as Jesus Christ, you partook his divine nature. Right away. Do you believe this? After we are reconciled, there is an expected fruit holiness, unblameable and unreproveable life in God's sight! By trying or struggling? NO No problem, but ever wondered why God IMPUTES righteousness on you in the first place? In short, what is the PURPOSE of imputing RIGHTEOUSNESS of God/Christ by faith and not works? |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by oyeludef(m): 3:16pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
@ promisechuks av been too busy to reply but i am going to send in my robust reply soon. I still await ur exposition on y Jesus sends warning to d church |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 3:38pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
vooks:Just as Adam's sin was imputed to all his descendants together with the consequences and nature, when we repent and believe on Jesus Christ God justly imputes the righteousness, and nature (by His Spirit) in us. See Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord Imputeth not iniquity AND IN WHOSE SPIRIT IS NO GUILE! This proves what I said that Imputation and Impartation occurs simultaneously and the absence of the fruits of the latter voids the faith that claims the former! |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 3:51pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
oyeludef:Man calm down, I will explain your misunderstanding in that verse. Still waiting for your pharisee-like comment! |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by oyeludef(m): 3:57pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
promisechuks: i just returned from a journey nd am relaxing but b4 nightfall i will surely reply u. Call me whatever u like, am not moved. |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 4:05pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Scholar8200:Hold it right there. You inherited Adam's sin? So, what happens to an infant who has Adam's sin when they die? Go to hell? when we repent and believe on Jesus Christ God justly imputes the righteousness, and nature (by His Spirit) in us.What fruit did the thief on the cross produce? |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 4:30pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Scholar8200: This guy sef, I wonder how you understand the scripture, stop behaving like the self-righteous pharisees. You even misunderstood the verse you quote! Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord IMPUTETH NOT INIQUITY; and in whose spirit is of no guile! That verse simply means that the blessed man HAD INIQUITY in HIM, but he is blessed, not because he had no inquity, rather he had but HIS INIQUITY which he HAD in him, is NOT IMPUTED(counted, accredited, reckoned) on him. And BECAUSE his iniquity is NOT imputed(accredited) on him, HIS SPIRIT IS OF NO GUILE and God sees him as righteous, even when he has the iniquity in him, the iniquity is not imputted on him. Please read the bible and understand well before you misquote the scripture and mislead people from the faith. The blessed man's spirit is of no guile, not because he did no sin, rather BECAUSE HE DID SIN, but his sins where not IMPUTED on him. That's what exactly the Gospel of Jesus is pointing to. David was talking about Jesus CONCEALED, but in the new testament it was REVEALED. |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 4:30pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Scholar8200: |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 4:31pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Scholar8200: This guy sef, I wonder how you understand the scripture, stop behaving like the self-righteous pharisees. You even misunderstood the verse you quote! Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord IMPUTETH NOT INIQUITY; and in whose spirit is of no guile! That verse simply means that the blessed man HAD INIQUITY in HIM, but he is blessed, not because he had no inquity, rather he had but HIS INIQUITY which he HAD in him, is NOT IMPUTED(counted, accredited, reckoned) on him. And BECAUSE his iniquity is NOT imputed(accredited) on him, HIS SPIRIT IS OF NO GUILE and God sees him as righteous, even when he has the iniquity in him, the iniquity is not imputted on him. Please read the bible and understand well before you misquote the scripture and mislead people from the faith. The blessed man's spirit is of no guile, not because he did no sin, rather BECAUSE HE DID SIN, but his sins where not IMPUTED on him. That's what exactly the Gospel of Jesus is pointing to. David was talking about Jesus CONCEALED, but in the new testament it was REVEALED. 1 Like |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 4:32pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
oyeludef:Oh, thank God for journey mercies! Hope the journey went well. 1 Like |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 4:35pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
vooks:The guy, is strictly viewing the righteousness of God through right living. And that's why he cannot be righteous before God without faith alone. |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 4:37pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
vooks:we were shapen in iniquity and in sin were we conceived. Also, it says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. This remains the position till we believe on Christ. Since a baby is unable to intelligently believe and is amoral, there being no scriptural basis to decide their fate, I dont know. we cannot use that case, the Spirit had not yet been given hence he believed after the manner of the OT saints listed in Hebrews 11 |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 4:52pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
More on IMPUTED righteousness, a doctrine that irks Legalists because they have no conception of Grace whatsoever in their Pharisaical minds 2 Corinthians 5:21(KJV) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Ask them HOW Christ became sin for us 1 Like |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 4:59pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Scholar8200:All Legalists are tongue-tied. You are not the first. So either ALL who have sinned includes infants who were shapen and conceived in iniquity, or it does not. Make up your mind and stop wasting my time. How is an infant which is 'unable to intelligently believe and 'amoral' conceived in sin and shapen in iniquity? Which scriptures tell you they are amoral? And if they are amoral, can they at the same time be guilty of sinning which necessarily demands morality? we cannot use that case, the Spirit had not yet been given hence he believed after the manner of the OT saints listed in Hebrews 11Please briefly explain 'believed after the manner of OT saints' Also explain the difference between believing Jesus before and after the Spirit was given. While at it explain what belief disciples had seeing they believed before Spirit was given |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 5:13pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
promisechuks:Actually, he is confusing holiness and righteousness |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 6:12pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
vooks:What part of my post suggests indecision? Go back and re-read it. The "I dont know" you misunderstood relates to where they go if they die as infants. Perhaps you may consider Psalm 51 where David said so, i didnt!
and should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? Jonah 4:11 They are neither knowledgeable nor intelligent to make decisions contrary to the Word. He received a good report through his faith, confessed it by the request he made to Jesus and God was not ashamed of him (see Hebrews 11) 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:39 At this time the disciple had believed on Him but could not enter into the benefits of the NT as shown in Ezekiel, Jeremiah etc. Why? The Blood that ratifies the covenant had not been shed. That is why Jesus said to the disciples of the Spirit that ," He dwells with you (Present) and shall be in you (future) They believed after the pattern of Abraham! |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 6:16pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
vooks:And when we are made the righteousness of God the expectation is that our lives will be characterised by Holiness: Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 and what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 Before you call some body a pharisee explain the passages given and give your interpretation viz a viz parallel verses! |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 6:27pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
promisechuks: New Living Translation Yes, what joy for those whose record the LORD has cleared of guilt, whose lives are lived in complete honesty! Aramaic Bible in Plain English Blessed is the son of man whose sin Lord Jehovah will not account to him, and there is no deceit in his heart As far back as the OT, they knew God would not just stop at forgiving and living us what we were, imputation and Impartation go hand in hand the absence of the latter mocks the faith that claims the former! 9 Hide your face from my sins! Wipe away all my guilt! 10 Create for me a pure heart, O God! Renew a resolute spirit within me! 11 Do not reject me! Do not take your Holy Spirit away from me! Psalm 51:9-11 |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 6:31pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Scholar8200:You will need to FIRST suffer this to sink. We are made the righteousness of God because NOTHING we can possibly do can earn it. the expectation is that our lives will be characterised by Holiness:Who has at any point denied this? Before you call some body a pharisee explain the passages given and give your interpretation viz a viz parallel verses!What is there to explain? When God IMPUTES the righteousness of Christ in you, you can't possibly be any more righteous than that |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 6:42pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
vooks:I tell you! The guy does not even understand the gospel, that why his belief is so confusing and contradicting. |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 6:47pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Scholar8200:But his is hypocrisy of the highest order!!! On top of Legalism you are a hypocrite! By your own admission; 1. Wages of sin is death 2. You inherited Adam's sin 3. You were conceived in sin and shapen in iniquity For all these three claims to hold true, God would have to destroy infants seeing they inherit sin and are sinners and wages of sin is death. Yet you hypocritically claim 'I don't know'. If you are uncomfortable of the consequences of your beliefs perhaps you should discard them Perhaps you may consider Psalm 51 where David said so, i didnt!So are infants vile sinners whose wage is death? and should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?Yet they are still inheritors of sin whose wage is death and still you don't know what happens to them in death? Hypocrite! If you don't know what God does to one group of sinners(infants) what right do you have to warn any other? He received a good report through his faith, confessed it by the request he made to Jesus and God was not ashamed of him (see Hebrews 11)And how is that different from NT saints? What is it that NT saints do that OT saints didn't that warrant there to be a distinction? Bring out this distinction, don't just claim it. Stop wasting time 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)Holy Spirit was given to those who believed. The question is not what happened to those who believed in either dispensation after they believed but how their believing was different They believed after the pattern of Abraham!You said saints in OT believed differently than NT saints BECAUSE the Spirit was not given. But note even in the NT, the Spirit is given AFTER believing, meaning at the point of believing there is no Spirit, and therefore the Spirit is not the DISTINCTION in belief. The question is how is the belief in OT different from that in NT? If you are baptized and filled with the Spirit, and this is a big IF, when you got born again, you were not Spirit-filled, just like that thief on the cross. What is the difference between the thief believing in Jesus and yours? |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 7:15pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
vooks:Thanks a lot.  Read Romans 6 and pls see that the wages of sin there relates to servants of sin whose Fruit-conduct and lifestyle based on intelligent choices- is sinful.
Wage is given to a labouring [/b]servant. Alright, keep em coming! Because, God clearly said: But the Lord said to Moses, Whoever [b]has sinned against Me, I will blot him [not you] out of My book. Exodus 32:32 The NT saints enter into the blessed realities of the Better covenant all made possible by the Indwelling Spirit mentioned by Jesus in John 7:39! No need to get worked up! Where did I say that? The focus of what you are misrepresenting was the RESULT of their faith and not the quality! Were you not the one that asked for fruit (RESULT) for the thief on the cross? See the answer ^^^^there. This is not talking of the Blessed Baptism in the Holy Ghost! We are talking about the Regeneration and Renewing by the Holy Spirit! Not the same as the former which is Anointing for service. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; Titus 3:5 5 He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit, titus 3:5 AMP Similarly explained by Paul in Romans 8. |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 7:30pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Scholar8200:Please I can't just understand the notion you are trying to bring up. Please can you tell me how sins where forgiven in the OT. My friend, I am beginning to feel uncomfortable with your facts. How does forgiveness of sin happens in the old testament. That's the reason why you are judging the new testament through the eye of the new testament. |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 7:49pm On Mar 23, 2016 |
Scholar8200:So an infant not being a labor being servant is EXEMPT from consequences of this inherited sin? Alright, keep em coming!I never hesitate to call hypocrisy out Because, God clearly said:But how do you warn any when you are ignorant of the other group? The NT saints enter into the blessed realities of the Better covenant all made possible by the Indwelling Spirit mentioned by Jesus in John 7:39! No need to get worked up!But the indwelling equally comes AFTER believing. We are not debating life AFTER believing but believing itself. Why is OT believing such as that of the thief on the cross different from yours when you got born again (if at all)? Where did I say that? The focus of what you are misrepresenting was the RESULT of their faith and not the quality! Were you not the one that asked for fruit (RESULT) for the thief on the cross?Here you go again with playing dumb. You said the IMPUTED righteousness of God is manifested by the lifestyle/fruit bla bla and absence of this means there was nothing imputed. I asked you what fruit the dying thief produced and you retorted that the thief believed DIFFERENTLY as under OT since the Spirit was not yet given. My point giving of the Spirit comes AFTER believing hence whether Spirit is given in one dispensation or not would not make believing in Jesus under either dispensation different. Can you process this and answer the question? If this is too much for your brains we can always stop This is not talking of the Blessed Baptism in the Holy Ghost! We are talking about the Regeneration and Renewing by the Holy Spirit! Not the same as the former which is Anointing for service.Again regeneration and renewing ALL happen AFTER believing so they are irrelevant in painting a distinction between believing in Jesus in either side of Pentecost. The thief believed in Jesus that afternoon, you presumably once believed in Jesus. Both of you believed. How come the thief is not bound by your invented rule of IMPUTED righteousness producing fruit else it was never IMPUTED? |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by oyeludef(m): 12:28am On Mar 24, 2016 |
@ promisechuks, my journey was smooth. Thanks. Now back to d topic. Wat do you understand by grace? As for me, it is a divine enablement to live rightly. The salvation work of Jesus Christ is in 3 fold (spirit, soul and body). Wen Jesus said it was finished, He meant that the sacrifice for redemption of mankind is finished. D saints who died b4 d cross av experienced d 3fold salvation in matt account of the death of Jesus wen grave of saints opened and dey were resurrected but for the church age, we are yet to witness it but it will happen at rapture wen our mortality will put on immortality, d dead in christ shall rise first and those dat are alive shall be caught up in d air with him. Paul spoke about how he desired to attain d resurrection of d dead. He also talked about the salvation of the soul wen he said "we are not of dem dat draw back unto perdition but of dem dat believe unto d saving of the soul" heb10:39 Severally in his epistles he admonishes believers to submit their body and soul to the control of their spirit which actually is a conscious thing to do. Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry There are numerous cases of smokers who after salvation, cant take another stick of cigarette because of d divine enablement not to. D doctrine of extreme grace and eternal security isn't new to me but it is devilish. Nobody (those u call pharisee) on dis thread has said u can attain salvation from ur works but that there are necessary fruits dat must of necessity b found in whoever is saved. Am sure u won't allow ur child or ward go near a child rapist who claims to b born again nd av grace but still rape children. Will u spend d night with a serial killer who claims to av grace but still killed b4 coming to stay with you? Even if you spend d night with such a person, am sure u wll hold a vigil. How do you say u are saved from sin if u still easily fall into it? If you are a pastor, am sure u won't wanna put ur church money in d hands of a worker who came to confess abt how he cannot do without stealing even if he claims to have grace. Ill. Conclude by quoting paul letter to titus For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you. Titus 2:11-15 NIV d onus lies in u as a believer to live to please d spirit rather than flesh. Am sorry for not properly editing and highlighting dis post. D browser i use currently is really stressful and not encouraging. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 7:21pm On Mar 24, 2016 |
oyeludef: While your definition of grace is morally good, it is heretic and unscriptural. You said that grace is divine enablement for right living. Please, I have to ask some question. What about people who live rightly but are not christians, were they enabled by grace(jesus)? What other enablement do people who are already living rightly when they are not even christians need to leave what is wrong and do what is right? Do you think that everybody do sin, because there are people who are hindu, muslim, buddha, and even atheists, but still they are not just okay with sin. There are people who don't tell lies, watch porn, name them, but does that mean they are saved? Was paul not enabled but still he said that things he wants to do, he doesn't see himself doing, but things he doesn't want to do, he sees himself doing(sin)Rom 7:12-22? Was peter not enabled when he committed a sin of hypocrisy- Gal 3? I never argue the fact that right living is among the fruits of the grace of God on us? But at the same time against the fact that when a believer does something wrong, he is unsaved and when he asks for forgiveness, he is saved? Neglecting the fact that we WERE forgiven ONCE AND FOR ALL at the cross. When there is ONLY one shed of blood,there is ONLY one forgiveness of sin and it happen at the cross ONCE AND FOR ALL. If the shed of blood is for the sins of the whole world(past, present and future), the forgiveness of sin is also for ALL our sin. ALL means ENTIRE. If the bible says that ALL our sins were forgiven, even though we were not born yet when the forgiveness took place, it simply means that our ENTIRELY LIFE SIN where forgiven. And at the same time against the fact that faith alone without works cannot give you eternal life. Then what is the sense of christ's death, if I have some works(right living) to do to go to heaven(eternal life). Then how does it still make eternal life, the GIFT of God? Against the fact that a man is not justified with Faith minus works of righteousness which is contrary to the scripture Rom 3:28; "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith, WITHOUT THE DEED OF THE LAW". I never support sin, but even if we do something wrong (sin) we are still forgiven and justified for the sake of christ's blood. I am seriously against the fact that our eternal life is dependent on faith + right living. I am seriously against the fact that sin can take one (who loves God and believes in christ) to hell. I know that we have to live rightly for the sake of God's love in our heart, but still God doesn't expect perfection from us THROUGH OUR ESTABLISHED RIGHTEOUSNESS, rather THROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS HIMSELF, WHICH IS OF FAITH, and because of our debt of imperfection through works, Jesus came and died for us all to pay the debt. I am seriously against the fact that we(believers) have to live rightly for the sake of eternal life. The grace your even talking about, does it make you SINLESS in flesh? Absolutely NO! If you disagree show mean the scripture that says that when we receive grace WE CAN NEVER SIN AGAIN. And at the same I challenge you to show me scriptural personalities that never sinned after believing in christ. I am seriously against the fact that we should live rightly for the sake of going to heaven. SO UNSCRIPTURAL AND HERETIC!. If so, then doesn't that make a eternal life look like a reward, therefore making the gospel a lie. I am not ADVOCATING sinful living, but telling people to live rightly for the sake of going to heaven is heretic, unscriptural and makes eternal life look like a reward that is based on right living rather than faith. NOW BACK TO MY VIEW ON GRACE: According to the NT scriptures, grace is a person- Jesus. John 1:14; "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of GRACE and truth." Grace is Jesus and everything Jesus stands for. All of it, is called the GOSPEL of Jesus christ(grace). When we say Gospel of grace, we are not just talking about forgiveness or freedom from sin(or to sin,as some misled people think), we are talking about the Gospel of jesus and everything it stands for. The Gospel of Jesus is good news to be simply believe and NOT A CALL TO DUTY. The gospel of Jesus is a good news which entails the birth, death, resurrection, it's ESSENCE and the glory that should follow. According to paul, see his explanation of what the Gospel is; 1cor 15:1-4; “Now brothers, I want to remind you of the GOSPEL I PREACHED to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. BY THIS GOSPEL YOU ARE SAVED(not by right living), if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, YOU HAVE BELIEVED(not live rightly) IN VAIN. FOR WHAT I RECEIVED I PASSED ON TO YOU OF FIRST IMPORTANCE: that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the Scriptures that HE WAS BURIED, that HE WAS RAISED on the third day according to the Scriptures.” Any sermon that is frustrating this, confusing it or not based or pointing at this, should be viewed as motivational sermons and not a sermon that gives life to the hearers. You said the salvation work of Jesus is in 3 fold. Although I may not agree with all you meant, that we are to save our body and soul by living rightly. Which is a complete HERESY! Jesus at the cross perfected our spirit, soul and body, NOTHING is remaining. All we have to do is to believe. And live victorious lives! THE SPIRIT : "He was wounded for our transgressions and bruise for our iniquities-- the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." THE SOUL : "Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows" THE BODY : "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses--and by His stripes we are healed" Jesus saved us COMPLETELY, if there are things we should do for our spirit, soul or body to be saved, then the finished work of christ is incomplete. It is like you misunderstood the heb verse you quote. Heb 10:39; "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition: but of them that BELIEVE(faith) in the saving of the soul. The saving of the soul is not by our performance but by having faith in the finished work of christ. That's why he said "...believe IN...". THE SAVIOUR OF OUR SOUL that saves our soul is not our performance but Jesus. That's why we are to, simply and only, believe. So it is concluded, that it is not in our hands to save our soul! Paul was not telling them to submit their bodies for the sake of GETTING eternal life(or going to heaven) which is the GIFT of God, paul was telling them that, so that they should serve God with everything they had, even with their body. According to paul, WALKING in flesh means living in CARNALITY OF CHRIST FINISHED WORK and the GIFT of righteousness, thereby SUBJECTING YOUR FLESH TO THE LAW. That someone did something wrong does not mean that the person is walking after the flesh and therefore condemned. If so then Peter and paul, walked after the flesh, God forbid! NO MAN who has lived, is living and will live in this world IS MR. RIGHT. One starts to work after the flesh when he starts trying and striving to keep the law, that no one can keep. CARNALLY THINKING THAT THE LAW CAN JUSTIFY HIS FLESH. Therefore, making him a slave to the law. Rom 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am CARNAL, sold under sin." He was sold under the works of the flesh(sin) because be was carnal. Then, why was he carnal because he was trying to keep the law, but still couldn't keep it. Vs 8-9; "But sin, TAKING OCCASION BY THE COMMANDMENT(law), wrought in me all manner of concupiscence, FOR WITHOUT LAW SIN IS DEAD" And whosoever that is working after the flesh shall die. Because the law worketh wrath(condemnation) which brings forth death. Rom 4:15; "Because the law worketh wrath: for where NO LAW is, there is NO TRANSGRESSION." Walking in the spirit means; walking in the CONCIOUSNESS of the finished work of christ(grace). Not FRUSTRATING the grace of God by trying to keep the law, seeing that by it shall NO FLESH be justified. Like many self-righteous christians have misinterpreted that clause "walking in the spirit" by saying that when you walk in the spirit you CAN NEVER DO WHAT IS WRONG(sin). Heretic! Was peter not in the spirit when he committed hypocrisy? These are doctrines of DEMONS, brought by the devil himself through many pastors and helping them spread it right there at the church alter, to CONDEMN the church. But, thank God for paul who said in Rom 8:1-6; "1 There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh (carnally minded) but after the spirit(spiritually minded of grace- jesus). 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do(to make me righteous), in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us(not by ESTABLISHING our righteousness but by BElIEVING in the perfect righteousness of Jesus, which makes HIS perfect righteousness to be imputted on us on the basis of faith), who walk not after the flesh(carnal mind),but after the Spirit(spiritually minded of Jesus- grace) 5 For they that are after the flesh(carnal mind) do mind the things of the flesh(to keep the law); but they that are after the Spirit, the things of the Spirit(constant believing in Jesus). 6 For to be carnally minded(flesh) is death; but to be spiritually minded(Jesus- grace) is life and peace." When you walk in the conciousness of NO CONDEMNATION(even when you do something that is wrong), it shall not make sin to take occasion through the law. You asked how can one say he is saved from sin, but still fall into it. That peter committed hypocrisy shows he wasn't save? I ask again, does accepting christ make you sinless? If yes, show me from the scripture, that someone never sinned after accepting christ. Are we saved from falling into temptation or from committing sin, through christ's death? If yes, QUOTE THE SCRIPTURES TO SUPPORT IT. How did it happen? The same way christ was condemned to death for our sake, did christ also fall into temptation of sin for our sake? If no, how did christ save us from sin operating in flesh. My friend, we aren't saved from falling into the temptation of sin rather we were save from the PENALTY, WRATH, CONDEMNATION, GUILT and IMPUTATION OF OUR SINS. Rom 5:9; "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from WRATH(we deserve) through him." I have read my bible VERY WELL, I have not seen any verse that says that christ died so that we can NEVER fall into the temptation of sin. All I have seen is that; christ was CONDEMNED to death, so that I can NEVER be condemned, even when I couldn't keep the law, but for his righteousness which is OF NO WORKS TO BE IMPUTTED in me. As for the seven churches, I am seriously writing post for it, very BIG post. It is plenty, but I will be posting it in due time. 1 Like |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 7:58pm On Mar 24, 2016 |
This is an open thread, however, every one will be responsible for his posts before God. |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 7:58pm On Mar 24, 2016 |
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:43-46 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Galatians 5:6 Folks would wish the Spirit did not Inspire those last three words! The Sheep had faith that worked by love,(the Spirit through their faith in Jesus regenerated, renewed and transformed them producing the Fruit of Love) the Goats thought they had faith (more like mental assent with no inner transformation with perhaps a lot of claims) but it was dead hence it did not work! Where do you stand! |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 7:58pm On Mar 24, 2016 |
More on Legalists and Pharisees Luke 18:10-14 (KJV) Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. 1. The Legalist reference point is 'other men', he is 'better' than other men 2. The Legalist is a meticulous record keeper of their deeds 3. The Legalist will not hesitate to regale you of their righteous deeds 4. The Legalist has a strong sense of entitlement on account of their deeds 5. The Legalist, in their own eyes" are overachievers 6. The Legalist pays lip service to thanksgiving, the only thing they are grateful for is their ABILITY to go about their righteous deeds 7. The Legalist exalts himself by contrasting their BEST with others' WORST 1 Like |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 8:01pm On Mar 24, 2016 |
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 1 Corinth 4:7 If a poor man claims to receive a Gift of $1m and still comes begging tomorrow we know he is lying! If a sinner says he is saved by Grace and CONTINUES in sin, he is a liar! It is a Received Life, not the fruit of self-effort. However, when it is received, it manifests! The holiness of life made possible by Grace is such that we, by the Indwelling Spirit, shine as lights but we know that this Life is not of ourselves, it is a Treasure in Earthen vessel that we can only be grateful for; no room for conceitedness! |
| Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 8:11pm On Mar 24, 2016 |
Scholar8200:With or without this thread or any other, we are all responsible for out actions. If this is a subtle way of discouraging others from challenging heresies, Legalism and Pharaiseeism, you gonna have to try harder  |
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