[size=16pt] Wednesday, 15th April 2009

                                                                           EXTENT OF SUBMISSION[/size]



Wives are commanded to submit to their husbands in all things (Eph 5:22-24).  Some wives find it difficult to submit to their husband just because they are taller, richer, more better placed, or more educated. Even if you were the president of a nation, God still expects that wife to submit to her husband in all things. Submission is an act of faith. That means that if you can submit to your husband in spite of contrary opinions and situations, it will be counted to you as righteousness.Similarly, the woman is expected to submit to her husband as if she was submitting to Christ (Eph 5: 22). This means that it is not the man that the wife is submitting to, but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. It also means that the extent to which a wife can submit to her husband is the extent to which she  can submit to Jesus Christ. A woman who cannot submit to her husband will not also submit to Jesus.  Show me a woman who is wholly submitted to her husband and I will show you a woman who is wholly following the Lord. Based on this scripture, many wives who claim to love Christ and obey Him have been found to be liars. There is a chain of obedience in every home. Children should submit to their parents, the wife to her husband; the husband to submit to Jesus even as Jesus submits to God the Father. At any point this order is not followed, the obedience chain is broken.

"Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything" (Eph 5:24). The question is, how is the church submissive to Christ? The church is the body while Christ is the head. All decisions are taken by the Lord and communicated to the church through the leaders. The church is dependent on the Lord. To what extent is your submission to your husband?  The only extreme is where your husband tells you to do something that will displease God or break your fellowship with Him - that is sin. As long as you are not asked to sin, the wife must totally comply with the decisions of her husband. After making suggestions, you will pray for divine guidance for your husband so thatt he does not make wrong decisions. You cannot be one with the husband you fail to totally submit to.

ACTION POINT - Whenever you submit to your head in the chain of obedience, responsibility and accountability is transferred to the one above you.



Now consider the following study questions;

1) What does it mean to submit to someone else?

2) If you are a married woman, do you agree with total submission to your husband?  How does this work in practice?

3) If you are a married man, do you like being the subject of your wife's submission?

4) Do wives also have to submit to their husband whilst at church?  Does this mean women are barred from speaking in church?

5) Supposing a husband and wife were engaged in making plans for their financial future - pensions, investments, education for kids, etc, etc. And supposing by virtue of the wife's education and profession, she has got expertise in this area whilst the husband experience is limited to casual conversation with his friends. And supposing that the wife thinks that her husband decision would lead to the ruination of the family financially. Should she submit to her husband's decisions.


Other Adeboye's teachings:

1)  Be Separate, Tuesday, 14th April, 2009.

lost interest in your first thread?

davidylan:

lost interest in your first thread?

This is a new daily devotional study as per Open Heaven 2009.

Hmm, no coment

Have you been slavishly submitting to your husband today? Have you got any mind of your own left?

huxley:

Have you been slavishly submitting to your husband today? Have you got any mind of your own left?

whats ur alternative to submission? disrespect and demand for equality, right?

noetic:

whats ur alternative to submission? disrespect and demand for equality, right?

What sort of nonsense is this? What is wrong with treating one's wife with utmost equality and with respect. What is wrong with encouraging women and men to treating each other with respect and equality and assign roles as per one's competencies?

huxley:

What sort of nonsense is this? What is wrong with treating one's wife with utmost equality and with respect. What is wrong with encouraging women and men to treating each other with respect and equality and assign roles as per one's competencies?

And how does the bible or the sermon u posted negate this comment of urs?
how does submissiveness not encompass equality and respect? how does the scripture not encourage men to be responsible husbands too?

ur problem is, u find everything biblical unintelligent and antediluvian. this has made u unobjective and very irrational to reality.
Or perharps ur reasoning is along the african limited connotation of words. This connotations that limit the meaning of submissiveness to the indirect slavery pertinent in African cultures.

Humility, supportive assertions, helpful and encouraging postulations are virtues of submissiveness required from a good partner (male or female). It has nothing to do with abuse, beating, modern slavery or battering like u imagined.

Obviously Huxley is obssesed with pastor Adeboye

@Topic
Man as been naturally positioned by Nature to have dominion over women.

PS: I used the term nature instead of God as Huxley might say he doesn't recognise God who is very manifest in the nature he recognizes.

KunleOshob:

Obviously Huxley is obssesed with pastor Adeboye

@Topic
Man as been naturally positioned by Nature to have dominion over women.

PS: I used the term nature instead of God as Huxley might say he doesn't recognise God who is very manifest in the nature he recognizes.

How did you arrive by that - that nature has given the man dominion over the woman?

noetic:

And how does the bible or the sermon u posted negate this comment of urs?
how does submissiveness not encompass equality and respect? how does the scripture not encourage men to be responsible husbands too?

ur problem is, u find everything biblical unintelligent and antediluvian. this has made u unobjective and very irrational to reality.
Or perharps ur reasoning is along the african limited connotation of words. This connotations that limit the meaning of submissiveness to the indirect slavery pertinent in African cultures.

Humility, supportive assertions, helpful and encouraging postulations are virtues of submissiveness required from a good partner (male or female). It has nothing to do with abuse, beating, modern slavery or battering like u imagined.

What does it mean to be submissive towards someone else? And are husbands required to be submissive towards their wives as well?

huxley:
What sort of nonsense is this? What is wrong with treating one's wife with utmost equality and with respect. What is wrong with encouraging women and men to treating each other with respect and equality and assign roles as per one's competencies?

The reason you dont see this is because like you and many men out there . . . you simply pick the "women submit to your husbands" portion of the bible, attach a negative, slavish connotation to it and run away crying. Who told you that the bible meant submission to be equivalent to slavery and subjugation? Here is what God requires of the man in verse 25 of Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

The bible enjoins us to love and treat our wives as Christ loved and treated the church . . . now how did Christ treat His disciples?
1. With love - He died for us.
2. With utmost humility - he washed their feet (how many husbands would wash their wives feet today or even attempt to wash their own clothes?)
3. As best friends - He ate with them, laughed with them, suffered with them, rejoiced with them.
4. Served them faithfully - For 3 yrs of His life on earth . . . they were inseparable.
5. Provided for them
6. Fed them daily with the word, prayed with and for them.
7. Calmed their fears . . .
8. Understood their nature and forgave them all the same - even when Peter denied him thrice, even though Philip was sceptical about Him and Thomas wouldnt believe he actually rose from the grave . . . those men still went on to become some of the mightiest apostles of the early church.

now if any husband loved his wife with all 8 attributes above . . . he doesnt need to preach to his wife before she submits to his authority.

hmmmm, i don't think today's women are really doing the 'biblical submission'  at least not where i am

as for me, when the time come we will see 

*Hauwa*:

hmmmm, i don't think today's women are really doing the 'biblical submission'  at least not where i am

as for me, when the time come we will see 

You better submit to me else no yekini for you.

huxley:

What does it mean to be submissive towards someone else? And are husbands required to be submissive towards their wives as well?

In your haste, you miss out the earlier verse

Ephesians 5:21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

debosky:

In your haste, you miss out the earlier verse

Ephesians 5:21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

perhaps we are supposed to be slaves to one another too? I didnt know that.

debosky:


Ephesians 5:21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

how do u expect huxley to understand that?

Debosky  hehe, heard of new world order yet? sure you have, a brave new world    where there are alternatives 

again for me, we will see.

btw, i don't like nigerian style of sumbmission. yes the bible is there to quote but the way an african man wants you to submit to him is 

debosky:

You better submit to me else no yekini for you.  

In your haste, you miss out the earlier verse

Ephesians 5:21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

My bone with this is at two levels;

Firstly, the way the pastor handles the bible material.   Nowhere do we see him say that it is a two-way thing, this submission business.  Check the text above.   Nowhere does he say husbands are to submit to their wifes as well.

Wives are commanded to submit to their husbands in all things (Eph 5:22-24).  Some wives find it difficult to submit to their husband just because they are taller, richer, more better placed, or more educated. Even if you were the president of a nation, God still expects that wife to submit to her husband in all things. Submission is an act of faith. That means that if you can submit to your husband in spite of contrary opinions and situations, it will be counted to you as righteousness.Similarly, the woman is expected to submit to her husband as if she was submitting to Christ (Eph 5: 22). This means that it is not the man that the wife is submitting to, but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. It also means that the extent to which a wife can submit to her husband is the extent to which she  can submit to Jesus Christ. A woman who cannot submit to her husband will not also submit to Jesus.  Show me a woman who is wholly submitted to her husband and I will show you a woman who is wholly following the Lord. Based on this scripture, many wives who claim to love Christ and obey Him have been found to be liars. There is a chain of obedience in every home. Children should submit to their parents, the wife to her husband; the husband to submit to Jesus even as Jesus submits to God the Father. At any point this order is not followed, the obedience chain is broken.

The Pastor does not reference verse 21 (Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.) , which seem to suggest that the submission is a two-way business.  The pastor really plays up the submission from the woman side and totally ignores the submission from the man side.  He even introduces this "chain of obedience"  concept which suggests that the heirarchy is as follows:  children -> wife -> husband -> Christ.  Why did he do that if he implied equality?


My second bone is verse 21 itself (which is NOT quoted by the Pastor).  This verse is presented like a passing casual statement, almost like an afterthought.  The rest of the text elaborates on the submission of the woman towards the man,  but no elaboration in the other direction.  Further, there are many other verses in the New Testament, that give women a secondary role, in keeping with the spirit of the Pastors message here.

Note that this passage enjoins husbands and wifes to love one another, a totally different attitude to submission, I might add.

This is Ephesians 5:

19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

How can it be given as an afterthought when it was given BEFORE the instruction to husbands and wives?

Your interpretation is wrong - In my opinion, it holds MORE weight that the husband and wife instruction because it governs ALL Christian relationships INCLUDING marriage.

The article by Adeboye was[b] CLEARLY FOCUSED on women[/b], not men. He never said he was giving both parties advice in this one article or representing the full picture of Christianity and marriage - he simply addressed an issue with regards to women in this PARTICULAR and nothing more.

If you claimed that he has NEVER or never emphasises on Ephesians 5:21, or on the roles of men, then I would listen. You have based your entire surmise on ONE article which had a singular purpose (talking to women) and is not a [i]be all end all [/i]for marriage relationships

huxley:


My bone with this is at two levels;

Firstly, the way the pastor handles the bible material.   Nowhere do we see him say that it is a two-way thing, this submission business.  Check the text above.   Nowhere does he say husbands are to submit to their wifes as well.

The Pastor does not reference verse 21 (Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.) , which seem to suggest that the submission is a two-way business.  The pastor really plays up the submission from the woman side and totally ignores the submission from the man side.  He even introduces this "chain of obedience"  concept which suggests that the heirarchy is as follows:  children -> wife -> husband -> Christ.  Why did he do that if he implied equality?

He didnt need to, he was speaking specifically to wives . . . and so he simply used the verse that addressed the issue of their relationship to their husbands. That is why we all have bibles . . . it is your duty to go home and read the entire chapter of Eph 5 to understand it in its entirety. the pastor has perhaps only 1 hr to speak on a given sunday . . . you cant expect him to cover everything pertaining to submission.

huxley:

My second bone is verse 21 itself (which is NOT quoted by the Pastor).  This verse is presented like a passing casual statement, almost like an afterthought.  The rest of the text elaborates on the submission of the woman towards the man,  but no elaboration in the other direction.  Further, there are many other verses in the New Testament, that give women a secondary role, in keeping with the spirit of the Pastors message here.

Maybe its because you simply (decietfully or in ignorance) chose to start reading from verse 19. Verse 21 is closely tied to the first 20 verses . . . it seems that chapter was written specifically to the body of christians in Ephesians possibly to be read as a sermon in church. Verses 19 - 21 especially dovetail into one another . . . it is NOT true that verse 21 was a casual statement or an afterthought . . .

huxley:

Note that this passage enjoins husbands and wifes to love one another, a totally different attitude to submission, I might add.

Based on your own dictionary knowledge. The bible definition of submission is included in love. Christ submitted Himself to the death on the cross . . . does that mean he literarily became the servant of someone named Mr. Cross?

If fact, a reading of the entire chapter of Ephesians 5 throws more light on the subject of verse 21.  Here it is:

Ephesians 5 (King James Version)


1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.


Verses 1 - 21 is clearly addressing the entire congregation or audience.  In verses 1 - 21, no direct mention of husbands or wife is made, as whatever he is saying appears to apply to the generality of the audience.   If this is correct, then the word "yourselves" used in verse 21 does NOT apply to husbands & wives exclusively, but to the general audience.

However, verses 22 - 33 is[b] directed specifically at husbands and wifes[/b], assuming there would have been a mixed audience with married and unmarried.  So it appears Paul address the entire audience firstly and then specifically the married members of the audience. If is no surprise Adeboye did not include verse 21 in his devotional for today.

huxley:

Verses 1 - 21 is clearly addressing the entire congregation or audience.  In verses 1 - 21, no direct mention of husbands or wife is made, as whatever he is saying appears to apply to the generality of the audience.   If this is correct, then the word "yourselves" used in verse 21 does NOT apply to husbands & wives exclusively, but to the general audience.

However, verses 22 - 33 is[b] directed specifically at husbands and wifes[/b], assuming there would have been a mixed audience with married and unmarried.  So it appears Paul address the entire audience firstly and then specifically the married members of the audience. If is no surprise Adeboye did not include verse 21 in his devotional for today.

You seem to be struggling desperately to contrive something to hang on Adeboye. Yes verse 1-21 seems to have been addressed to an entire church . . . infact the entire chapter was addressed to the church. The "yourselves" in verse 21 refers to the body of the church.

Verses 22 -33 are addressed specifically at husbands and wives . . . well hello the church is made up of men and women some of whom were married! Adeboye wasnt talking on the generality of Eph 5, he was addressing women specifically and used verse 23 to address a particular point.

What really is your issue? you seem to be waffling in confusion.

davidylan:

You seem to be struggling desperately to contrive something to hang on Adeboye. Yes verse 1-21 seems to have been addressed to an entire church . . . infact the entire chapter was addressed to the church. The "yourselves" in verse 21 refers to the body of the church.

Verses 22 -33 are addressed specifically at husbands and wives . . . well hello the church is made up of men and women some of whom were married! Adeboye wasnt talking on the generality of Eph 5, he was addressing women specifically and used verse 23 to address a particular point.

What really is your issue? you seem to be waffling in confusion.

For the hard-of-understanding, the point was made that "yourselves" was an allusion for men to reciprocate the submission towards their women. I said NO. Verse 21 refers to the generality of the audience, while verses 22 - 33 pays particular attention to married couples. If Paul felt he had addressed the issue adequately in verses 1 - 21, then there would have been no need for the verses that address uniquely married couples. That he devotes 13 verses on the issue of submission within a marriage shows the depth of feeling and conviction that he had for the subject, rather that the lukewarm submission he referred to for the whole church.

And this is exactly what Adeboye is playing on with todays devotional. Nowhere does he balance out this submission business by calling for men to submit to their wives. In fact, there is nowhere in the bible where men are called to submit to their wives.

Have any wives been being submissive to their husbands today?