@pres-elect,

If we are gonna be tied down on semantics, let me state clearly here also that I am pro-choice. Going by the logic you are presenting, we can also infer that Obama considers those who disagree with him as anti-choice if hew will like to be refered to as pro-choice. So let us try and reconcile the two by saying I am pro-choice and anti-abortion, but Obama is pro-choice and pro-abortion. Are you happy now?

I assume you are in London, right? When exactly will you be in the US and what city will you be staying? What course are you studying as well?

@TOH,

and some people disagree. That's life. Get over it.

Can those people also get over the fact that more people in the US do not support abortion? By the way, when does life begin in your opinion?

@bawomolo,

I can see how you keep dodging all the points I make while perpetuating in your mind, the mirage that as liberals, you care more for the poor than the conservatives. I know you liberals always imagine the world to be different than what it really is, so I am not surprised by your delusion. Studies have proven over and over again that conservatives give more of their money to the less priviledge than liberals.  I know there is no way I can win an argument with you, but let's see if the facts provided here will get in the way of your delusion.

•Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

•Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

•Residents of the states that voted for John Kerry in 2004 gave smaller percentages of their incomes to charity than did residents of states that voted for George W. Bush.

•Bush carried 24 of the 25 states where charitable giving was above average.

•In the 10 reddest states, in which Bush got more than 60 percent majorities, the average percentage of personal income donated to charity was 3.5. Residents of the bluest states, which gave Bush less than 40 percent, donated just 1.9 percent.

•People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.

In 2000, brows were furrowed because Vice President Al Gore's charitable contributions, as a percentage of his income, were below the national average: He gave 0.2 percent of his family income, one-seventh of the average for donating households. But Gore "gave at the office." By using public office to give other peoples' money to government programs, he was being charitable, as liberals conveniently understand that word.
- http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/17032146.html

Perhaps those poor will stand a better chance if you guys just pick up the 30% slack in your giving, even though you generally earn more.  But of course you will not. Your idea of social justice is just a means to keep the poor, poor and to perpetuate a voting block for generation.  Come discuss with me after you guys have put your money where your mouth is.  Stop trying to be 'Mr Nice Guy' with other people's money.

By the way, regarding minority schools, you might want to read the following article - http://www.blackamericaweb.com/?q=articles/news/the_state_of_black_america_news/9229, which claims Obama just cut Bush's $85 million dollars in funding to minority schools. Coulde it be that Obama does not care for the minority as well?  I guess Bush too must have hated Blacks even though he gave more money to Africa than any previous US Administration.

Can those people also get over the fact that more people in the US do not support abortion?

Um No cos they are not trying to force anyone to support it, they are stating that a woman should just have the right to options. It's that simple.

Btw this thread should be about pro-life and not about Bush cuts or whatever offtopic garbage

@TOH,

Um No cos they are not trying to force anyone to support it, they are stating that a woman should just have the right to options. It's that simple.

They are not? One way to ensure they are not forcing their decision on others (other than the baby they are killing), is to insist that abortion should by no means be subsidized by the govt. At least, the burden of their murderous acts will not be shared by those who disagree. What say ye?

Btw this thread should be about pro-life and not about Bush cuts or whatever offtopic garbage

That became relevant only because bawomolo is claiming that conservatives do not care for the poor or the minority. Unfortunately for him, the facts provide eloquent testimonies against his position.

Tayo-D:

So let us try and reconcile the two by saying I am pro-choice and anti-abortion.

That is a paradox.
Unless of course, you mean that the only choice that matters is your own.

Tayo-D:

@TOH,
They are not? One way to ensure they are not forcing their decision on others (other than the baby they are killing), is to insist that abortion should by no means be subsidized by the govt. At least, the burden of their murderous acts will not be shared by those who disagree. What say ye?

Such dramatic words but I agree with the gist behind it. Govt shouldnt have to pay for such personal responsibilities

just for the welfare caused by unwanted babies

Someone made the comment of the day. All the people crying about abortion being wrong should adopt all the orphans in orphanages. Maybe then it will make sense to the pro-choice people why they should have an unwanted child and give it up for adoption.

@savanaha,

Someone made the comment of the day. All the people crying about abortion being wrong should adopt all the orphans in orphanages. Maybe then it will make sense to the pro-choice people why they should have an unwanted child and give it up for adoption.

How clever. Why not ask people in this era of 'personal responsibility' according to Obama, to take responsibility for their actions. If you can't take care of a child, don't have one. Our experience as humans reveal that we are all subject to the laws of sowing and reaping, cause and effects etc. If you can't take care of a child, don't have one, otherwise you become a murderer.

And for those of you who care so much for the poor, why not donate 100% of your income to the govt to dole out welfare programmes? As for adopting orphans, I am quick to point out a staunch pro-lifer in the person of Michelle Bachman. She is a member of the House representing MN. She is a proud foster mother of 26. As conservatives, we put our money where our mouths are. Same cannot be said of the liberals.

I must add that I am shocked by the lack of morality you guys are displaying here. Life to you is disposable for economic reasons. Do you realise that is your stance?

Tayo-D:

I must add that I am shocked by the lack of morality you guys are displaying here. Life to you is disposable for economic reasons. Do you realise that is your stance?

abeg get over yourself. You dont support it fine. Others dont think people like you should tell a waomn what she should do, why is that so hard to understand

the whole "you're pro-choice" so you must be pro-abortion is so pathetic and tired.

Tayo-D:

@savanaha,
How clever. Why not ask people in this era of 'personal responsibility' according to Obama, to take responsibility for their actions. If you can't take care of a child, don't have one.  Our experience as humans reveal that we are all subject to the laws of sowing and reaping, cause and effects etc.  If you can't take care of a child, don't have one, otherwise you become a murderer.

And for those of you who care so much for the poor, why not donate 100% of your income to the govt to dole out welfare programmes?  As for adopting orphans, I am quick to point out a staunch pro-lifer in the person of Michelle Bachman.  She is a member of the House representing MN.  She is a proud foster mother of 26. As conservatives, we put our money where our mouths are.  Same cannot be said of the liberals.

I must add that I am shocked by the lack of morality you guys are displaying here. Life to you is disposable for economic reasons. Do you realise that is your stance?

You do understand that people by having an abortion someone realizes that they cannot take care of the child therefore they are aborting it.  And am happy that America has made people divided into two groups of liberal or conservative. Nowhere did I tell you I was either even if you are conservative. All I know is that you mention Michelle Bachman but don't mention yourself, and all other conservatives who have not adopted. If all then people that called themselves pro-lifers adopted like Miss/Ms./Mrs. Bachman then telling someone that doesn't want a child there would be a home for the child would be a bit more convincing.

On your comment about doling out 100% about income, it is interesting that the people you consider "murderers" are atleast willing to help the poor without whining and people that are all about life,  love liberty and God act as it they have never seen the inside of a church. Maybe you so called conservatives realize that human beings are not divided into groups of "liberals" and "conservatives" what you think your preaching might mesh together better with your actual practices.

@TOH,

Understand where I am coming from. Savahana declares that if we really hate abortion then we should be ready to take care of the babies. The ideology behind that statement is that life is disposable for economic reasons. I don't understand how else to interprete such a statement. Do you?

Tayo-D:

@TOH,

Understand where I am coming from. Savahana declares that if we really hate abortion then we should be ready to take care of the babies. [/b]The ideology behind that statement is that life is disposable for economic reasons. I don't understand how else to interprete such a statement. Do you?

Yes, take care of children that are already born into a messy world as a start so that people that change their minds about abortion will know their unwanted child has someone where safe rather than being shot later. There are many ways to interpret things and [b]your [/b]interpretation only supports [b]your agenda therefore for you there is no other way of interpreting it.

@savahana,

I don't have to tell you what I am doing or have done. Anyone can come online and claim whatever they want on this faceless forum.  I mentioned Bachmann because she is a leading conservative voice, and the facts in this case can be verified. Other facts presented here show that people like me give more to the poor than people like Bawomolo, Al Gore etc.  Just to put this in proper perspective for you, my giving to charity is a sizeable multiple of the average that the article above posted. I don't intend to say more than that.

@savanaha,

There is a way to avoid abortion - don't get pregnant! Is that too much to ask? If you are mature enough to have sex, you should be mature enough to understand its consequences.

Tayo-D:

@savanaha,

There is a way to avoid abortion - don't get pregnant! Is that too much to ask? If you are mature enough to have sex, you should be mature enough to understand its consequences.

Yeah easier said than done! After whats her name. . . preached it (Palin) didn't her daughter get pregnant? So she didn't have an abortion but many people don't have people that will help them through it.
I personally don't agree with all types of abortion like reckless sex resulting in unwanted pregnancy and then abortion but I am not going to hammer down on someone not to kill a child that I cannot take care myself. There are also people that no matter the circumstance disagrees with abortion and that is definitely ridiculous

@savanaha,

Yeah easier said than done! After whats her name. . . preached it (Palin) didn't her daughter get pregnant? So she didn't have an abortion but many people don't have people that will help them through it.
I personally don't agree with all types of abortion like reckless sex resulting in unwanted pregnancy and then abortion but I am not going to hammer down on someone not to kill a child that I cannot take care myself. There are also people that no matter the circumstance disagrees with abortion and that is definitely ridiculous

I am glad you called it what it is: killing a child! If you are okay with killing a child because of poverty, fine with me. As long as you and your conscience can live with it.

I have said here that I am in support of the death penalty. That only in the case of a convicted cold-blooded murderer. Such a life can be taken because it deliberately took a life in cold blood. According to the justice principle of no cruel and unusaula punishment, every reaction to an action must be comparable. In that sense I have no problem with abortion when the life of the woman is at stake. Anything other than that is unjustified. Life can be exchanged for life. Life cannot be exchanged for money or lack of it!

Tayo-D:

@savanaha,
I am glad you called it what it is: killing a child! If you are okay with killing a child because of poverty, fine with me.  As long as you and your conscience can live with it.

I have said here that I am in support of the death penalty. That only in the case of a convicted cold-blooded murderer.  Such a life can be taken because it deliberately took a life in cold blood.  According to the justice principle of no cruel and unusaula punishment, every reaction to an action must be comparable. In that sense I have no problem with abortion when the life of the woman is at stake. Anything other than that is unjustified. Life can be exchanged for life. Life cannot be exchanged for money or lack of it!

O.K so when the baby is born and is rejected and ends being shot at 14 or a similar age it alright as long as it was not aborted. Interesting.

@savahana,

O.K so when the baby is born and is rejected and ends being shot at 14 or a similar age it alright as long as it was not aborted. Interesting.

So babies born into rich homes don't get shot at at 14 too? What exactly is your point?

Yeah easier said than done! After whats her name. . . preached it (Palin) didn't her daughter get pregnant?

the twisted loon even laughed at abstinence on FoxNews. Abeg make we hear word.

Tayo-D:

@savahana,
So babies born into rich homes don't get shot at at 14 too? What exactly is your point?

Well since you are making this into rich and poor, how many babies born into rich homes are killed compared to those born into poor homes?

@savanaha,

You guys are so twisted in your defences. Am I the one that made this about rich and poor or you? Aren't you the people claiming money is an issue in the killing of babies? I do not have that statistics but will appreciate you sharing them with me.

@TOH,

You just can't pass the opportunity to bash people can you? nasty, nasty you. You need some spanking! You are running wild!

Tayo-D:

@savanaha,

You guys are so twisted in your defences. Am I the one that made this about rich and poor or you? Aren't you the people claiming money is an issue in the killing of babies? I do not have that statistics but will appreciate you sharing them with me.

Who are you guys? The poor or the liberal. All I know is that most the people harking and pretending to care about aborted babies don't give two craps about living babies and children. People wailing that universal health care and what not is so that lazy people could free load off the rich. Minorities and women should be paid less than men and all that. Today its abortion tomorrow its something else. Babies are sent home from hospitals without full treatment because their parents can't pay. Lets help those already here and needing help first rather than playing holier than thou.

@savhana,

When you've backed yoursel up to a wall, the next thing is to start dancing around the issues. Perhaps you should tell liberals like Al Gore, Obama and the DNC as a whole to make up the giving to the poor. The statistics I provided above already shows that we conservatives are by far doing more for the poor than the vocal liberals who can't spend their money.

Tayo-D:


You just can't pass the opportunity to bash people can you? nasty, nasty you. You need some spanking! You are running wild!

Have I ever been any other way

ThiefOfHearts:

Have I ever been any other way

And that's d way I like you. Okay, maybe not entirely!

That became relevant only because bawomolo is claiming that conservatives do not care for the poor or the minority. Unfortunately for him, the facts provide eloquent testimonies against his position.

how was the stats gotten? Anyway we liberals are too busy spending our hard earned money on trips to disneyland rather than taking care of babies we don't have or want

Why don't you end all forms of contraception if you care about life so much?

Abeg make we rest jare. As long as government funds isn't used, people can abort as much as they want.

Tayo-D:

@savhana,

When you've backed yoursel up to a wall, the next thing is to start dancing around the issues. Perhaps you should tell liberals like Al Gore, Obama and the DNC as a whole to make up the giving to the poor.  The statistics I provided above already shows that we conservatives are by far doing more for the poor than the vocal liberals who can't spend their money.

You apparently care about the conservatives and liberal thing alot so you can tell whoever whatever you want. When you don't want to go ahead a talk about issues you claim someone is dancing. What statistics prove where that the conservatives are giving which poor. When you get back to reality and away from your liberal vs conservative world please realize that it is better to help the babies and children not being cared for rather than worrying about ones that might be aborted. Most people that are anti abortion suggest that children should be given up for adoption as if they have parents lined up to take them.

@bawomolo,

how was the stats gotten? Anyway we liberals are too busy spending our hard earned money on trips to disneyland rather than taking care of babies we don't have or want

How can your liberal conscience permit you to be taking trips when there are many poor people who are going hungry at this time? I thought you care so much for them!

Why don't you end all forms of contraception if you care about life so much?

See logic. How many times have I said here that you should be ready to live with the consequences of your actions - be it pregnancy or anything else.  I am happy with my use of contraceptives and live with the consequences.  Those who chose not to use contraceptives should live with the consequences as well.

Abeg make we rest jare.  As long as government funds isn't used, people can abort as much as they want.

That's part of my point if you have been following the argument, govt funds is being used!

@savanaha,

The conservative liberal dichotomy is very reflective of the pro-choice and the pro-life position. While there are exceptions, liberals are generally pro-abortion while conservatives are generally pro-life. So get over it already.

You obviously jumped into this discussion without readign the previous posts. If you did, you would have found my references to the statistics. Of course we care about the living which explains why we give more to the needy than the pro-choice people. Maybe poverty won't be as widespread if they gave their fair share.

I support non-profits that take care of orphans. Though while I have not officially adopted an orphan, I have stood by many that have family issues. Besides, I have a family of five that I have never met but will be moving into my house in the next few weeks. I do my part quite alright.

How can your liberal conscience permit you to be taking trips when there are many poor people who are going hungry at this time? I thought you care so much for them

!

I care about them and that's why i don't make choices for them unlike you. you haven't answered though, how did they get the stats?

That's part of my point if you have been following the argument, govt funds is being used!

no that's your argument, you would still throw an hissy fit if someone send their daughter to france to get an abortion. 

Would you support pro-choice if government funds weren't used? yes or no

Would it be fine if homosexuals adopted this kids?

@tayo

i wanted to come to the US this yr, but i have to wait to see my results . . . u know . . . u never can tell . . . i will pass though . . . but u never can tell . .  

i have a visa which will expire by august, so i have to get another one and this time a visa that will allow me to work. however, b4 that happens, i have an exam, a dissertation (my topic is on health effect of socio-economic ineguality: a comparison of ajegunle/Ikoyi and peckam/herfordshire) this dissertation may even take me to nigeria for 2 months to do a study. so my US trip may well end up being next yr. thanx for asking

back to topic

democrats are not pro-abortion tayo  wetin be this? u mean i love abortions? haba. i want women to make their own choices. i'll rather they make the right choices though but i wont force it on them. period. why dont we concentrate on where we agree and reduce abortions.

a) educate these young ones better, including moral education and possible re-introduction of prayers in public schools

b) reduce poverty, unemployment, etc in the society and more importantly, when the teenagers eventually have these children, there should be a plan to take care of them so this socil vicious cycle doesnt repeat into another generation.

c) health care coverage for all. this will take care of all illnesses including STDs and HIV. and even more importantly take a strong preventive approach to healthcare.

i believe women should have that right of choice, i hope they make the right choices by not getting pregnant. even God in all his power and wisdom did not force his views on his creations, even when he has the power and moral grounds to do so, rather God gave people the choice to do the right thing.

see, i understand ur feelings about the unborn babies, i understand that. and the debate about when life begins still rages, but we must consider the right of the woman and her own body.

i will not give my money for any babe to terminate her pregnancy, but i dont want to be her ''lord'' in what to do with her body.

one day republicans will want to ban sex  then we'll hae pro-sex and pro-virgin democrats and republicans