Pastor AIO:

A fraud is a fraud. You can say it nicely, or you can say any which way. Fraud remains fraud.

True, and a lie is a lie is a lie is a lie - no matter how slyly one puts it, using lies and indescent language to promote one's disdain for tithe is a lie. I'm saying that nicely, too.

Pastor AIO:

Calling a pastor fraudulent or criminal is not necessarily hateful.

Edit: Maybe, maybe not - and calling attention to the lies used against pastors all in the name of 'correction' is not necessarily hateful.

Pastor AIO:

It is either true or untrue. If it is untrue then it should be demonstrated to the person that said it that what he has said is untrue.

It has been demonstrated too many times; and if several people keep pointing to that same attitude, what happens if the person in question does not seem to listen?

Pastor AIO:
Love does not mean being indulgent of wrong-doing. In fact that would be quite contrary to love.

One can show love by listening and discussing the subject, not by constantly referring to pastors with unhealthy language. There's no justifying such attitude as 'love' when it has become something characteristic in such posts.

Pastor AIO:

Correction can seem harsh and unloving and it is only in the long term that the love that motivated it manifests.

Agreed. I would rather say that correction goes both ways - to the one who tries to correct another, and others who are the focus of his correction. If one assumes that he is always 'in order' to accuse and be spiteful at pastors, there is no long term love in such an attitude.

@Pilgrim.1
Please state one single lie i have lied in my writings against the preaching of tithes without your usual resort to quote me out of context.
On the issue of calling pastors fraudulent, we have been able to firmly establish that the type of tithing preached by pastors[compulsary 10% of one's income that must be paid to the church] has absolutely no sound christian scriptural basis. We have also been able to establish that the bible is twisted to justify this scam for the material benefit of those preaching it. What then do you call fraud? is it not when people or organizations are deceived into parting with their money? One thing is certain any pastor that preaches tithing as stated above is deceiving people to part with their money hence he is engaging in a fraudulent act and i have no qualms about calling a fraudster a fraudster even he claims to be a man of God or God sent him to collect the money on his behalf. i also resort to such strong language becos evil must be condenmed in all it's raminfications and i call a spade a spade[no point in dressing it up] using the strong language and condenming it outrightly i am expreesing to people just how grievious this evil is. People especially nigerians tolerate a lot of rubbish and just accept what comes to them and that is why they are taken advantage of.

@Kunle,

I hope you don't mind my mentioning your name this time around?

KunleOshob:

@Pilgrim.1
Please state one single lie i have lied in my writings against the preaching of tithes without your usual resort to quote me out of context.

Did I specifically mention your name in this matter? If you're referring to this statement in my reply:
         "using lies and indescent language to promote one's disdain for tithe",
then I take it you felt it addressed your style. If that is the case, please let me know, and then I'll oblige you several of your own quotes.

KunleOshob:

On the issue of calling pastors fraudulent, we have been able to firmly establish that the type of tithing preached by pastors[compulsary 10% of one's income that must be paid to the church] has absolutely no sound christian scriptural basis.

Is that enough for you to constantly call them 'criminals'? If your own teaching is shown to be of absolutely no sound Christian Scriptural basis, does that mean that we have to call you a "criminal" as well? The point here is not your theology, but rather your attitude. If you're okay with constantly branding others as "criminals" simply because you do not agree with their teaching, then why should it worry you that others might address your problem [even without calling you such names]  where they do not agree with you?

KunleOshob:

We have also been able to establish that the bible is twisted to justify this scam for the material benefit of those preaching it.

Does this include all pastors who teach tithes? Is that what you have 'established'? As long as you're not able to see issues calmly until you brand others with such names, perhaps that's why your own arguments have now turned against you.

KunleOshob:

What then do you call fraud? is it not when people or organizations are deceived into parting with their money?

Nope, that's not your problem. Your attitude has been unhealthy, and this has been observed so many times by several others. If you can use such language on pastors (pastors in general) who preach tithes to their congregations, and then assume that all those pastors by default are "fraudulent" and "criminal", then one must suspect with good reason that you're tending to use fraudulent language to push your own agenda.

KunleOshob:

One thing is certain any pastor that preaches tithing as stated above is deceiving people to part with their money hence he is engaging in a fraudulent act and i have no qualms about calling a fraudster a fraudster even he claims to be a man of God or God sent him to collect the money on his behalf.

One thing is also certain: anyone who assumes he is beyond correction because he believes he's always 'in order' to condemn people without first seeking to understand them is also a fraud.

KunleOshob:

i also resort to such strong language becos evil must be condenmed in all it's raminfications and i call a spade a spade[no point in dressing it up] using the strong language and condenming it outrightly i am expreesing to people just how grievious this evil is.

Unfortunately, I cannot say ditto to you - as it's not my style to condemn anyone in "such strong language". We can correct misunderstandings by presenting truth in love - that's the way it should work with us as Christians (Ephesians 4:15). But to go out and then brand people names when even your own understanding is often warped does not make you any better than those whom you condemn in such strong language. If you can't see this, what would you benefit yourself before hoping to benefit others?

KunleOshob:

People especially nigerians tolerate a lot of rubbish and just accept what comes to them and that is why they are taken advantage of.

Well, that may be true in some cases; but what if the Nigerians who have been responding to your 'strong language' can be said to no longer tolerate your own rubbish? I've made mistakes before. . . but people have cautioned me. . . I would only injure myself if I remain obstinate in condemning people simply because I believe I'm "in order". Is it too much for you to change your attitude for the better while you seek to share your opinions?

When did somebody become 'my guy', 'the guy'. Thou shall not call his name in vein? Is that humulity or what?
Enigma, answer this added queries if you please?

Image123:

When did somebody become 'my guy', 'the guy'. Thou shall not call his name in vein? Is that humulity or what?
Enigma, answer this added queries if you please?

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow! What queries? If I know, I'll try to answer.

i am beginning to wonder how same person can justify and be tolerant of PDP thieves as politicians and order some phensic/ paracetamol for religious people

Pilgrim,d poster requested on how to pay his tithe,you explained to him on how to go about it,wen kunle acknowledge ur position,you together with others want to crucify him and you people are already abadoning the issue from the poster,you want to fight kunle. Pls dont compound more headache to the poster pls.

well personally i believe in paying tithes but my problem is i prefer giving it to beggars than paying in church. is this wrong peeps

segyemaro:

Pilgrim,d poster requested on how to pay his tithe,you explained to him on how to go about it,wen kunle acknowledge ur position,you together with others want to crucify him and you people are already abadoning the issue from the poster,you want to fight kunle. Pls dont compound more headache to the poster pls.

@segyemaro,

If you look carefully, my post was not about fighting Kunle for acknowledging my position; so please don't cheapen the discussion here by suggesting what it is not. If anything at all, here's why several people have stood against his attitude:
[list]

pilgrim.1:

It is unfair for him to always and persistently accuse everyone who teaches about tithe in the manner he has been doing and using that as counter-arguments against the subject of tithe in itself. Discussions are less messy when people like him can stick to the subject and stop pointing accusing fingers at others unnecessarily.

[/list]
No one has tried to 'crucify' him for acknowledging anybody's position; but even before this thread, several people have cautioned him about his attitude. Did you fail to see that before trying to make out what it is not?

Oxone:

well personally i believe in paying tithes but my problem is i prefer giving it to beggars than paying in church. is this wrong peeps

Tithing is not a matter of "paying" as if a believer "owes" it like taxes. Many people have the idea that giving tithes to 'beggars' is preferable to giving in Church, but this ought not be so. There's a difference between giving "alms" to people (perhaps beggars) and bringing one's tithes and offerings to church. Giving in church should not be confused for giving alms to beggars. All the same, enjoy your Sunday.

Oxone:

well personally i believe in paying tithes but my problem is i prefer giving it to beggars than paying in church. is this wrong peeps

It is a good idea to set aside something you can afford in order to give biblically. It could be ten percent of what you have/earn which is probably why you call it "tithes".

Indeed, giving to beggars (and similar poor and needy e.g. orphans, widows etc) is very much at the heart of what Jesus Christ and the apostles taught as our Christian duty. I'll give you a couple of examples:

1. Jesus Christ clearly made clear that to love Him, to give to Him, to clothe Him, to feed Him --- is done when you love/give to/clothe/feed the poor and needy. Read e.g. Matthew 25:35ff

2. The apostle James, one of the highest earliest leaders in Christianity after the death of Jesus Christ (who was his blood brother), said this: 

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

See James 1:27 (Edited: I have changed the version to NIV)


Very interestingly neither Christ nor James nor any of the other apostles is recorded in the Bible as teaching anyone to "tithe" or especially as teaching anyone to pay or give "tithes" to any "church" or leader or "pastor".

Let me clarify one more thing in relation to the word "tithe". The bible uses the word "tithe" to refer specifically to a tenth especially a tenth of produce (and in the case of Abraham, a tenth of the spoils of war). Also the bible uses the word "tithe" to refer specifically to the tenth animal of livestock holding. If you had 9 animals, you did not need to give a "tithe" as you had no tenth animal to give. If you have 20 animals, you could not choose number 11 or number 1 or number 20 or any animal other than the tenth under the rod when counting your animals.

The result is that anyone supposedly living by the "tithe" rule today will need to make sure, legalistically, that what they are giving/paying is a tenth. Do not be confused by false claims that some people believe that the tithe was more than ten percent. That statement is very simple to understand. Firstly, there are different instances when the "tithe" i.e. a tenth was referred to in the Bible; it is by aggregating different "tithes" or "tenths" that someone can claim that paying "tithes" (i.e. different types of tithes/tenths) can amount to more than 10 per cent. Secondly, in one instance God said that the "tithe" must be produce --- but that if people wanted to redeem the "tithe" in money, then they must add an extra 2.5 per cent to the value of the tenth ---- interestingly, this was to discourage the people from paying/giving "tithes" in monetary form!. This last bit further shows that the "tithe" really never was money nor about money!

Enigma:

The result is that anyone supposedly living by the "tithe" rule today will need to make sure, legalistically, that what they are giving/paying is a tenth.

That's not true, for God never called anyone to be a legalist. To make this issue a matter of "legalistically" doing this, that or the other is to miss the essential message of Scripture.

Enigma:

Do not be confused by false claims that some people believe that the tithe was more than ten percent.

I'd be surprised. This would mean that a whole lot of anti-tithers have been making very false claims in that case - for they are the very ones who have asserted endlessly that Biblical tithes was more than 10%; and in other cases, the percentage varies. They know this for a fact, they've preached it many times, and they keep making the same assertion regardless. If there's anyone making "false claims" in this matter, then anti-tithers need to beware.