Christians must be prepared to answer the typical objections made against the Gospel. Most of the objections are based on simple logical fallacies. The following is a list of some of the most common fallacies used by Muslims.
Note: The average Muslim does not know that his arguments are logically erroneous. He is sincere in his beliefs. Thus you must be patient and kind in sharing with him why his arguments are invalid.

1. The Fallacy of False Assumptions: In logic as well as in law, "historical precedent" means that the burden of proof rests on those who set forth new theories and not on those whose ideas have already been verified. The old tests the new. The already established authority judges any new claims to authority.
Since Islam came along many centuries after Christianity, Islam has the burden of proof and not Christianity. The Bible tests and judges the Qur'an. When the Bible and the Qur'an contradict each other, the Bible must logically be given first place as the older authority. The Qur'an is in error until it proves itself.
Some Muslims violate the principle of historical precedent by asserting that Islam does not have the burden of proof and that the Qur'an judges the Bible.

2. Arguing in a circle: If you have already assumed in your premise what you are going to state in your conclusion, then you have ended where you began and proven nothing.

Circle If you end where you began, you got nowhere.

Examples:
#1 Proving Allah by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Allah.
#2 Proving Muhammad by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Muhammad.
#3 Proving Islam by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Islam.

3. False Analogy: Comparing two things as if they are parallel when they are not really the same at all.
Examples:
#1 Many Muslims erroneously assume that Muslims and Christians share the same concepts of God, revelation, inspiration, textual preservation, the Bible, prophethood, biblical history, conversion, etc,
#2 Because a false analogy is drawn between Islam and Christianity, some Muslims think that any argument which refutes the Qur'an will likewise refute the Bible; any argument which refutes Muhammad will also refute Jesus Christ, etc,
#3 For example, many Muslims claim that Muhammad and all prophets were sinless. They even deny that Abraham was an idol worshipper. Thus when a Christian points out all the wicked things that Muhammad did (mass murder, child abuse, lying, etc.), the Muslims will say,

"If you are right, then you must also reject your biblical prophets for doing wicked things as well."

What he is really saying is, "If you reject my prophet, then you must reject your prophets as well. If Muhammad was a false prophet, then your prophets are false as well."
The root problem is that the Muslim concept of prophethood is not the same as the Christian concept of prophethood. We teach that prophets sin like anyone else. Thus while Islam is refuted by the sins of Muhammad, Christianity is not jeopardized at all. The Muslim is guilty of setting up a "false analogy."
Whenever a Muslim responds to a Christian attack on the Qur'an, Muhammad, or Allah by flipping the argument around and applying it to the Bible, Jesus or the Trinity as if Islam and Christianity either stand or fall together, he is guilty of the fallacy of false analogy. Islam can be false and Christianity be true at the same time.

4. The Fallacy of Irrelevance: When you introduce issues which have no logical bearing on the subject under discussion, you are using irrelevant arguments.
Examples:
#1 Some Muslims argue, "The Qur'an is the Word of God because the text of the Qur'an has been preserved perfectly." This argument is erroneous for two reasons:
a. Factually, the text of the Qur'an has not been preserved perfectly. The text has additions, deletions, conflicting manuscripts, and variant readings like any other ancient writing.
b. Logically, it is irrelevant whether the text of the Qur'an has been preserved because preservation does not logically imply inspiration. A book can be perfectly copied without implying its inspiration.
#2 When Muslims attack the character and motives of anyone who criticizes Islam, they are using irrelevant arguments. The character of someone is no indication of whether he is telling you the truth. Good people can lie and evil people can tell the truth. Thus whenever a Muslim uses slurs such as "mean," "dishonest," "racist," "liar," "deceptive," etc., he is not only committing a logical fallacy but also revealing that he cannot intellectually defend his beliefs.
#3 When confronted with the pagan origins of the Qur'an, some Muslims defend the Qur'an by answering,

"But Christians celebrate Christmas and it was originally a pagan holiday! Thus both Muslims and Christians get their rites from the pagans."

This argument is erroneous for several reasons.
a. It is a false analogy to parallel the pagan origins of the rites commanded in the Qur'an with the present day holidays nowhere commanded in the Bible. What some modern day Christians do on Dec. 25th has no logical bearing on what the Qur'an commands Muslims to do (eg. the Pilgrimage, the Fast, etc.).
b. It is irrelevant that some Christians choose to celebrate the birth of Christ. Since the Bible nowhere commands it, it is a matter of personal freedom. But Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an to believe and practice things many things which came from the paganism of that day.
c. The Muslim by using this argument is actually admitting that the Qur'an was not "sent down" but fabricated from pagan sources. This means he has become an unbeliever (Surah 25:4-6).
#4 Some Muslims argue that the Qur'an is the Word of God because it contains some historically or scientifically accurate statements. This argument is irrelevant. Just because a book is correct on some historical or scientific point does not mean it is inspired. You cannot take the attributes of a part and apply it to the whole. A book can be a mixture of true and false statements. Thus it is a logical fallacy to argue that the entire Qur'an is true if it makes one true statement.
When a Muslim argues that history or science "proves" the Qur'an, this actually means that he is acknowledging that history and science can likewise refute the Qur'an. If the Qur'an contains just one historical error or one scientific error, then the Qur'an is not the Word of God. Verification and falsification go hand in hand.
#5 The present meaning of a word is irrelevant to what it meant in ancient times. The word "Allah" is a good example. When confronted by the historical evidence that the word was used by pagan Arabs in pre-Islamic times to refer to a high god who was married to the sun-goddess and had three daughters, some Muslims will quote dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc. to prove (sic) that "Allah means God." They are thus using modern definitions to define what the word meant over a thousand years ago! What "Allah" means now has no bearing on what it meant before Muhammad.

5. The Fallacy of Equivocation: If we assume that everyone has the same definition of such words as God, Jesus, revelation, inspiration, prophet, miracle, etc., we are committing a very simple logical fallacy.
#1 When a Muslim says, "Christians and Muslims worship the same God," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. While Christians worship the Triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Muslims worship a Unitarian deity. Obviously, they are worshipping different Gods.
#2 When a Muslim says, "We believe in Jesus too," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. The "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not the Jesus of the Bible. Islam preaches "another Jesus" (II Cor. 11:4). The Jesus of the Bible is God the Son who died on the cross for our sins. But the "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not God the Son and he did not die on the cross for our sins. Thus it is erroneous for Muslims to tell Christians that they believe in Jesus too.
#3 When a Muslim assumes that Christians have the same concept of revelation as Muslims, he is guilty of the fallacy of equivocation. According to Islam, the Qur'an was written in heaven by Allah and has no earthly sources. When we prove that it comes from earthly sources, this threatens the inspiration of the Qur'an.
On the other hand, the Bible does not claim that it dropped out of heaven one day. It openly quotes from earthly sources. It uses pre-existing sources without any difficulty whatsoever. Thus while the Qur'an is threatened by historical sources, the Bible is actually confirmed by them.
#4 When a Muslims tells you that the word "Allah" has only one meaning: "the one, true, universal God," he is assuming a fallacy. The word "allah" has many different meanings.
a. It can be used as a generic term like the English word "God." Thus it can be applied to any god or goddess regardless if if a true or false god is in view. (ex. The "Allahs" of Hinduism.)
b. The Nation of Islam uses it to refer to Wallace Dodd Ford, Elijah Muhammad, and Louis Farrakhan as "Allah" and teaches that all black people are "Allahs."
c. It has been used by some Christians in Arabic speaking countries as a generic name for the Holy Trinity.
d. It was used in pre-Islamic times by pagan Arabs to refer to the moon-god whowas the father of al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat.
e. It is used by Muslims to refer to their god.
Islam and Christianity do not worship the same God. The Christian worships the Holy Trinity while the Muslim worships a unitarian deity.

6. The Fallacy of Force: The Qur'an commands Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims and apostates (Surah 5:33; 9:5, 29).
Some Muslims use a false analogy to answer this argument. They respond by saying, "Well, what about the Crusades? You Christians use violence just like Muslims."
It is logically erroneous to set up a parallel between Muslims killing people in obedience to the Qur'an and Christians killing people in disobedience to the Bible. While the Qur'an commands Jihad, the New Testament forbids it.

7. The Fallacy Of Confusing Questions of Fact with Questions of Relevance: Whether something is factually true is totally different from the issue of whether you feel it is relevant. The two issues must be kept separate.
Examples:
#1 When a Christian argues that some of the beliefs and rituals of the Qur'an came from pre-Islamic Arab paganism, the Muslim will deny it at first. But as more and more evidence is given, the Muslim will often do a flip-flop and begin arguing, "So what! Didn't you Christians get Christmas from the pagans?" The Muslim has now committed three fallacies:
a. The "So what!" argument is dealing with the issue of relevance, not fact. You must stop the Muslim at that point and ask him, "Since you are now dealing with the issue of whether the pagan origins of the Qur'an are relevant, does this mean that you are now agreeing to the fact of the pagan origins of Islam?"
b. The Muslim has also committed the fallacy of equivocation. The Bible is not threatened by historical sources. It freely refers to them and even quotes them (Acts 17: 28). But the Qur'an denies that it has any earthly historical sources (Surah 25:4-6).
c. He also committed the fallacy of false analogy. The Bible and the Qur'an are two totally different books. The inspiration of the Bible does not depend upon the fate of the Qur'an because what Muslims claim for the Qur'an is not what Christians claim for the Bible.

8. Phonic Fallacies: The phonetic sound of a word should not be used to twist its meaning. For example,
a. Some Muslims try to prove that the word "Allah" is in the Greek New Testament because of the Greek word alla. But while the word is pronounced "alla," it only means "but" in Greek. It has nothing to do with the Arabic "Allah."
b. Some Muslims have claimed that the word "Allah" is in the Bible because the Biblical word "Allelujah." They then mispronounce the word as "Allah-lujah!" But "Allelujah" is not a compound Arabic word with "Allah" being the first part of the word. It is a Hebrew word with the name of God being "JAH" (or Yahweh) and the verb "alle" meaning "praise to." It means "praise to Yahweh." The Arabic word "Allah" is not in the word.
c. The same error is found in the Muslim argument that the word "Baca" (Psa. 84:6) really means "Mecca." The valley of Baca is in northern Israel.
d. Some Muslims have tried to go from "Amen" to "Ahmed" to "Muhammed!" Such nonsense is beyond belief.

9. "Red Herring" Arguments: When a Muslim is asked to defend the Qur'an, if he turns around and attacks the reliability of the Bible, the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the Crusades, etc., he is introducing irrelevant issues that have no logical bearing on the truthfulness of Islam. He is trying to divert attention from Islam to other issues.
Furthermore, he is assuming that if he can refute the Bible, then the Qur'an wins by default. If he can refute the Trinity, then Allah wins by default. But this is logically erroneous. You cannot prove your position by refuting someone else's position. The Bible and the Qur'an could both be wrong. Muslims must prove their own book.

10. Straw Man Arguments: When you put a false argument into the mouth of your opponent and then proceed to knock it down, you have only created a "straw man" argument. Muslims sometimes either misunderstand or deliberately misquote the arguments Christians give them.
Example:
Some Muslims have built a "straw man" argument that claims that we teach,

"The Qur'an teaches that Allah is the Moon-god and that Muslims knowingly believe in and worship the Moon-god and his daughters."

They then knock down this "straw man" argument and claim victory. Of course, we never said such nonsense. What we have said is that while the Qur'an claims that Allah is God and Muslims think they are worshipping the one true God, in reality they are worshipping a false god preached by a false prophet according to a false book.

Conclusion

The average Muslim has been deceived by Muslim apologists who use such logical fallacies without regard to reason, fact or honesty. But there are many Muslims who want to be rational in their religion and thus have an open mind to rational discourse. Once they see that their arguments are based on logical fallacies, they will be open to the wonderful news that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for our sins on the cross.

well written.

what do mohammedans have to say?

@Noetic2: In your chaotic opinion, you say Muhammedans. Nothing is called Muhammedan(s).

Muhammad is the name. Check it out in the Quran. There is even a Chapter titled as such. It is after the Ha Mim collection of Chapters.
Muhammad (AS), is a Muslim, a Messenger, a Prophet, a Mumin, etc.

No time did he say that those who followed the religion of Islam are Muhammedans. They are muslims. And I thought you were matriculated!

Whats well written about what the poster presented? Watch the Muslims destroy it. The same way your entries didn't past Muster.

@Dankol: Thanks man. « on: Today at 11:52:51 AM »

Christians must be prepared to answer the typical objections made against the Gospel. Most of the objections are based on simple logical fallacies. The following is a list of some of the most common fallacies used by Muslims.
Note: The average Muslim does not know that his arguments are logically erroneous. He is sincere in his beliefs. Thus you must be patient and kind in sharing with him why his arguments are invalid.

1. The Fallacy of False Assumptions: In logic as well as in law, "historical precedent" means that the burden of proof rests on those who set forth new theories and not on those whose ideas have already been verified. The old tests the new. The already established authority judges any new claims to authority.

Even if the old idea/theory is wrong? Will that count for objective observation?

Since Islam came along many centuries after Christianity, Islam has the burden of proof and not Christianity. The Bible tests and judges the Qur'an. When the Bible and the Qur'an contradict each other, the Bible must logically be given first place as the older authority. The Qur'an is in error until it proves itself.
Some Muslims violate the principle of historical precedent by asserting that Islam does not have the burden of proof and that the Qur'an judges the Bible.

If this is assumed to be always true, then Christianity and indeed the New Tstament is still wrong. You have tocompare it and put into account the Judaic religion and its Book, Torah. There is no 3 gods in it and Jesus was not in it, too.

2. Arguing in a circle: If you have already assumed in your premise what you are going to state in your conclusion, then you have ended where you began and proven nothing.

Circle If you end where you began, you got nowhere.

Examples:
#1 Proving Allah by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Allah.
#2 Proving Muhammad by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Muhammad.
#3 Proving Islam by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Islam.

Same goes for you; 1). Proving Jesus as god and Trinity as an idea by the Gospel/New Testament, and proving Gospel/New Testament by Jesus as god/Trinity. 2). Proving Jesus as son of God by the New Testament and then proving the New Testament by Jesus as son of God.
3). Proving Christianity by the New Testament and then proving the New Tstament by Christianity.

This is just the Jews arguing with you. Lets leave the Muslims out of this. Unfortunately, for you Christians you have the Jewish Book in your Christian Bible. It is there if not for anything else, to argue and disproof the New Testament. Please start defending your Book, which the Jews call the New Lies!

3. False Analogy: Comparing two things as if they are parallel when they are not really the same at all.
Examples:
#1 Many Muslims erroneously assume that Muslims and Christians share the same concepts of God, revelation, inspiration, textual preservation, the Bible, prophethood, biblical history, conversion, etc,

You must be out of your league in fallacies. Muslims, and indeed Quran never share anything with you, except that we are under the same heavens and living on the same earth. No muslim will say that we have the same Lord/God. Allah is ours and you deny Him. No one in Islam will address his Creator as Jehovah/Yahweh. Quran is our revelation and that is enough. Inspiration that we rekorn with is through Muhammad (AS). This is the reason that I eat hind quarter of animal, while the Jews don't. We do not celebrate Easter, so how do we have the same revelation? Quran is not preserved like the Gospel or Torah; Quran is in authentic Arabic. No muslim takes a look at the Bible, except in contemporary comparisons. While islam has 124000 messengers and or prophets, am sure you have nothing close to that. Check your Bible, again. There is no Biblical history in Islam. Allah alone told the stories in Quran. Where is Bible in it? AlRahman is copying the Bible?

Where is acts of apostle, books of revelations, the letters of the apostles; Paul in the Quran?

#2 Because a false analogy is drawn between Islam and Christianity, some Muslims think that any argument which refutes the Qur'an will likewise refute the Bible; any argument which refutes Muhammad will also refute Jesus Christ, etc,

Should a truth be ignored because such truth will upset your sense of injustice? The Jews must now reluctantly accept your Christian doctrines and Book, when it is obvious that it is opposing their own long established doctrine, and earlier Book, the Torah? I don't think so.

#3 For example, many Muslims claim that Muhammad and all prophets were sinless. They even deny that Abraham was an idol worshipper. Thus when a Christian points out all the wicked things that Muhammad did (mass murder, child abuse, lying, etc.), the Muslims will say,

"If you are right, then you must also reject your biblical prophets for doing wicked things as well."

Since it is Muhammad and his followers, the Muslims with their Quran in hand is what has disallowed your unfettered claim to world dominance, I am sure that the attach will not stop. But should a similar issue and conditions not be put on your Christian Book and ideology, if we are looking for the truth? If we look into the actions of the Biblical Jesus, we will see intent to murder, except the forces against him were just too much.

I often ask myself, except that I know that Prophet Jesus is not the same as Jesus in the Bible, was the Biblical Jesus not lying, if we consider the fact that he said that he and his listeners have the same Lord/God on one hand. And then on the other hand it is believed that he is saying that he is god? Which is correct? God or Prophet? One of these two statements must be wrong.

A child abuser who was not confronted or stopped, should not stop at one child, or should he? A woman beater never stop at the first one. If the child abuser never repeat his action that he is accused with more than one child it is a wrong accusation, I say.

What he is really saying is, "If you reject my prophet, then you must reject your prophets as well. If Muhammad was a false prophet, then your prophets are false as well."

Adam, Enoch, Noah, Ibrahim, etc were all prophets long and gone before Judaism of Moses. How are they Christian prophets when they are not prophets of Jews? The only prophet you have if any is Jesus. But then you rejected his commandments to you. You only formed a religion after his name, and nothing else.

The root problem is that the Muslim concept of prophethood is not the same as the Christian concept of prophethood. We teach that prophets sin like anyone else. Thus while Islam is refuted by the sins of Muhammad, Christianity is not jeopardized at all. The Muslim is guilty of setting up a "false analogy."

Are you okay, man? You are contradicting your own statement: You said prophets sin like everyone else. Then you condemned prophet Muhammad for sinning? Did Jesus ever sinned? Lets use the Bible; Temptationitself is a sin,sowemust record three of it for Biblical Jesus. Cursing is a sin, so we must record one for Biblical Jesus. Should I continue? How about purchases of sword in preparation for war? War will lead to murder, loss of lives, etc.

Whenever a Muslim responds to a Christian attack on the Qur'an, Muhammad, or Allah by flipping the argument around and applying it to the Bible, Jesus or the Trinity as if Islam and Christianity either stand or fall together, he is guilty of the fallacy of false analogy. Islam can be false and Christianity be true at the same time.

Muslims do not want to task you to much. Hence we use what you are familiar with to argue against you. Afterall, you wanted to disproof Islam, whereas you are giving us the ingredients to completely throw you off. Why reinvent the wheel?

the rest of the questions are just waste of time. I don't have that time. Its the Christians who are eager to disproof Islam. Islam is Quranic based. It has no resemlance to Yiddish or Ibru or Aramaic, since it is Arabic. Yet you people will not quit maligning it.

Mr. Olabowale you should have said you are exhausted of words or not able to refute the rest that let them go unrefuted, that is part of what is being said. some common fallacies, when the heat is on, they back out.

Haba! That was uncalled for now. Please show the man respect, every religious debate does not have to turn to a fight.

@Dankol,quite a nice post from one of your sites but promise you that I would refute all you posted using verses from Quran,Bible (both old and new testament). My response may be late but would definitely reply you. Takia till you hear from me

Common fallacy number 11:

Making historically inaccurate claims - Example, the hadiths allege that Asiya was the wife of Pharaoh who rescued Moses from the Red sea and eventually joined him while abandoning the palace of pharaoh.

Well we know that historically:

1. Asiya has NEVER existed. If we go through ALL the kings of Egypt who reigned from Moses' birth to the Exodus, NONE bears the name Asiya neither can we find her mummy or her place in Egyptian history.

2. Asiya would have to have lived at least 95 yrs of age for the account in the hadith to be proven true and would have had to have been the wife of at least 4 different Pharaohs.

olabowale:

@Noetic2: In your chaotic opinion, you say Muhammedans. Nothing is called Muhammedan(s).

Muhammad is the name. Check it out in the Quran. There is even a Chapter titled as such. It is after the Ha Mim collection of Chapters.
Muhammad (AS), is a Muslim, a Messenger, a Prophet, a Mumin, etc.

No time did he say that those who followed the religion of Islam are Muhammedans. They are muslims. And I thought you were matriculated!

Whats well written about what the poster presented? Watch the Muslims destroy it. The same way your entries didn't past Muster.

whats all this u are talking about? if u are not a mohammedan, why did u respond?

and when u responded to the OP did u make ANY point at all? do u actually go tru ur posts before u post them?

and why did u not answer my questions on the other thread? u love frivolities.

@Dankol

Thanks so much for the 'informative' write up from:

http://www.chick.com/information/religions/islam/fallacies.asp

and

http://www.upholdingtradition.com/apologetics/islam/logic.htm

Christians must be prepared to answer the typical objections made against the Gospel. Most of the objections are based on simple logical fallacies. The following is a list of some of the most common fallacies used by Muslims.

Okay bros

     

  Note: The average Muslim does not know that his arguments are logically erroneous. He is sincere in his beliefs. Thus you must be patient and kind in sharing with him why his arguments are invalid.

Yes, patience just like David, Todak, Noetic etc has been displaying here

1. The Fallacy of False Assumptions: In logic as well as in law, "historical precedent" means that the burden of proof rests on those who set forth new theories and not on those whose ideas have already been verified. The old tests the new. The already established authority judges any new claims to authority.
       Since Islam came along many centuries after Christianity, Islam has the burden of proof and not Christianity. The Bible tests and judges the Qur'an. When the Bible and the Qur'an contradict each other, the Bible must logically be given first place as the older authority. The Qur'an is in error until it proves itself.
       Some Muslims violate the principle of historical precedent by asserting that Islam does not have the burden of proof and that the Qur'an judges the Bible.

Tell me why the Bible must be given first place when it was not REVEALED to non of the prophets? Since it must be given first place, who was it revealed to and the proof?

2. Arguing in a circle: If you have already assumed in your premise what you are going to state in your conclusion, then you have ended where you began and proven nothing.

Circle               If you end where you began, you got nowhere.

Examples:
       #1 Proving Allah by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Allah.
       #2 Proving Muhammad by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Muhammad.
       #3 Proving Islam by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Islam.

Christians are very fond of that. They keep going in circles, starting and stopping in the same spot.

Now let us analyse your post here:

1. Christians prove Jesus as god, one of the three (ideas none of them has been able to support logically) by the New testament and then proving New testament by God Jesus.

2. Proving Jesus as the only begotten son of God by the New testament and then proving the New testament by Jesus as the only begotten son

3. Proving christianity by the new testament and then proving new testament by christianity

3. False Analogy: Comparing two things as if they are parallel when they are not really the same at all.
Examples:
       #1 Many Muslims erroneously assume that Muslims and Christians share the same concepts of God, revelation, inspiration, textual preservation, the Bible, prophethood, biblical history, conversion, etc,

Well, for your information, we only share same God if it is unitarian God and not a three in one God, God that changed to human being, was punished by his creator and died.

Muslims dont share the same concept with regards to revelation with you in the sense that you believe that God revealed the bible whereas it is not so.

Also the bible has no textual preservation as no two versions are the same. It as suffered lots of edition, reprinting reversion etc and that is nit applicable to the Quran.

There is nowhere God revealed bible but it was compiled by people after the demise of Moses and Jesus. The bible has no history as no two stories of its compilation are the same.




     

  #2 Because a false analogy is drawn between Islam and Christianity, some Muslims think that any argument which refutes the Qur'an will likewise refute the Bible; any argument which refutes Muhammad will also refute Jesus Christ, etc,

Muslims have not been refuting Quran nor Muhammed but the bible because God didnt send the bible.

       #3 For example, many Muslims claim that Muhammad and all prophets were sinless. They even deny that Abraham was an idol worshipper. Thus when a Christian points out all the wicked things that Muhammad did (mass murder, child abuse, lying, etc.), the Muslims will say,

Oga, Abraham was not an idol worshipper. You may google his story and read. He asked his father why they worshipped what couldnt talk nor eat and had to destroy them leaving one ad was punished by marking a furnace in which he was thrown inside to be burnt to death.

You have not been able to substantiate your accusation of mass murder, child abuse, lying with facts. Your peeps have been graping at straw all these while.

    "If you are right, then you must also reject your biblical prophets for doing wicked things as well."

Muslims have not been saying christians are right but you should back your allegations with facts in which they have not been able to and thanks for the pointer with regards to biblical stories. BTW,  there has never been any christian prophets as Jesus never was and would never be.

       What he is really saying is, "If you reject my prophet, then you must reject your prophets as well. If Muhammad was a false prophet, then your prophets are false as well."

Muslims have not been saying that, so get your story right.

The root problem is that the Muslim concept of prophethood is not the same as the Christian concept of prophethood. We teach that prophets sin like anyone else. Thus while Islam is refuted by the sins of Muhammad, Christianity is not jeopardized at all. The Muslim is guilty of setting up a "false analogy."

Oga, you are even shooting yourself in the leg. Muslims did not say Muhammed never sinned or sinned or the prophets guilty of that, as its only Allah that knows that but christians do say Jesus never committed any sins, was sinless likewise other prophets. Even Paul said that whoever sins is a slave of sin but I dont know how you arrive at your story that prophets sin?

       Whenever a Muslim responds to a Christian attack on the Qur'an, Muhammad, or Allah by flipping the argument around and applying it to the Bible, Jesus or the Trinity as if Islam and Christianity either stand or fall together, he is guilty of the fallacy of false analogy. Islam can be false and Christianity be true at the same time.

Islam is the truth while christianity would always be false. Go read it yourself, read about contradictions, compilation, irrelvant stories, pornographies, love poems, incest, raping, mass murder etc. authors have revised different versions having missing verses here and there but Quran stands and Alla even challenged you to that.

4. The Fallacy of Irrelevance: When you introduce issues which have no logical bearing on the subject under discussion, you are using irrelevant arguments.
Examples:
       #1 Some Muslims argue, "The Qur'an is the Word of God because the text of the Qur'an has been preserved perfectly." This argument is erroneous for two reasons:
           a. Factually, the text of the Qur'an has not been preserved perfectly. The text has additions, deletions, conflicting manuscripts, and variant readings like any other ancient writing.

I disagree with this but would support it if you could supply me the additions, conflicting manuscripts etc
         

b. Logically, it is irrelevant whether the text of the Qur'an has been preserved because preservation does not logically imply inspiration. A book can be perfectly copied without implying its inspiration.

You are perfectly referring to the bible with regards to 2nd timothy 3 v 16. The Quran was inspired and preserved as well unlike the bible having different versions with verses missing and contradictions

       #2 When Muslims attack the character and motives of anyone who criticizes Islam, they are using irrelevant arguments. The character of someone is no indication of whether he is telling you the truth. Good people can lie and evil people can tell the truth. Thus whenever a Muslim uses slurs such as "mean," "dishonest," "racist," "liar," "deceptive," etc., he is not only committing a logical fallacy but also revealing that he cannot intellectually defend his beliefs.

That goes to David, Noetic, Todak etc. They have not been able to hold any intelligent discourse with Muslims with regards to Islam while threads have been created for their doctrines especially, that of deification of Jesus in wich they couldnt provide who jesus was begging and why he cried to God that why has thou  forsaken me but quick as saying mortal cannot understand it like that and forgot that same bible said there is NO SECRET INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE.

   

   #3 When confronted with the pagan origins of the Qur'an, some Muslims defend the Qur'an by answering,

Pagan origin ke, just hearing for the first time

    "But Christians celebrate Christmas and it was originally a pagan holiday! Thus both Muslims and Christians get their rites from the pagans."

Muslims did not get any rite from pagans or you could tell which one they got unlike you that got easter, xmas, new year etc in which you unknowingly agreed to above

This argument is erroneous for several reasons.
           a. It is a false analogy to parallel the pagan origins of the rites commanded in the Qur'an with the present day holidays nowhere commanded in the Bible. What some modern day Christians do on Dec. 25th has no logical bearing on what the Qur'an commands Muslims to do (eg. the Pilgrimage, the Fast, etc.).

Na wa o. I tire oo. No Muslim parallel that as christian rites have been established/culled from pagan rites and has no relationship with that of the muslims which has been ordained by Allah.

           b. It is irrelevant that some Christians choose to celebrate the birth of Christ. Since the Bible nowhere commands it, it is a matter of personal freedom. But Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an to believe and practice things many things which came from the paganism of that day.

Like what sir? Did Jesus even die on 25th and did you study the season then (maybe we need to dig deep into this sef) ?

         

c. The Muslim by using this argument is actually admitting that the Qur'an was not "sent down" but fabricated from pagan sources. This means he has become an unbeliever (Surah 25:4-6).

Firstly, muslims do not use the argument so your analogy up is false and should be accepted and lastly, muslims do not say that it was not sent down/fabricated from pagan sources.


   

   #4 Some Muslims argue that the Qur'an is the Word of God because it contains some historically or scientifically accurate statements. This argument is irrelevant. Just because a book is correct on some historical or scientific point does not mean it is inspired. You cannot take the attributes of a part and apply it to the whole. A book can be a mixture of true and false statements. Thus it is a logical fallacy to argue that the entire Qur'an is true if it makes one true statement.

Fact please and you should apply that to the bible as well please.

     

When a Muslim argues that history or science "proves" the Qur'an, this actually means that he is acknowledging that history and science can likewise refute the Qur'an. If the Qur'an contains just one historical error or one scientific error, then the Qur'an is not the Word of God. Verification and falsification go hand in hand.

I deal with facts and not story telling please. Could you provide the rebuttal and we read from you?

       

#5 The present meaning of a word is irrelevant to what it meant in ancient times. The word "Allah" is a good example. When confronted by the historical evidence that the word was used by pagan Arabs in pre-Islamic times to refer to a high god who was married to the sun-goddess and had three daughters, some Muslims will quote dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc. to prove (sic) that "Allah means God." They are thus using modern definitions to define what the word meant over a thousand years ago! What "Allah" means now has no bearing on what it meant before Muhammad.

1. Your folks have presented the lie about the goddess and have been shown verses umpteen times showing where Allah said that they are idols devised by your very self in which you had no knowledge of. Enough of that hogwash please and would do you good if you could serve where Allah differs from the one worshipped then?

I would continue from #5 when less busy.

blabs what EXACTLY was ur point?

First you spoil his username (blabs), then you pretend that you didn't get his points just to make things difficult. The christian 'love' you show to your fellow human beings is something else.
@topic,
I wish those people who  google information about Islam would understand that not everything they see on the Internet is true

@Noetic,if your guy has taken time to peruse that write up,he would have been that his accusations hold no water as it couldnt be accepted with a pinch of salt. Most of the statement go to you and ur folks in which you have been displaying when answering or debating in which good example is where one of you asked 'why did Allah allow His book,the bible to corrupt,y cant he guide it'? The point is that his copy and paste is all ruse that was not substantiated and some parts exposed the relationship between christianity and paganism. My rejoinder to the last part of his post would come SOON

fellis:

First you spoil his username (blabs), then you pretend that you didn't get his points just to make things difficult. The christian 'love' you show to your fellow human beings is something else.
@topic,
I wish those people who  google information about Islam would understand that not everything they see on the Internet is true

Well stated.

I never meant to be disrespectful to babs, that was just my way of teasing him.

babs787:

@Noetic,if your guy has taken time to peruse that write up,he would have been that his accusations hold no water as it couldnt be accepted with a pinch of salt. Most of the statement go to you and ur folks in which you have been displaying when answering or debating in which good example is where one of you asked 'why did Allah allow His book,the bible to corrupt,y cant he guide it'? The point is that his copy and paste is all ruse that was not substantiated and some parts exposed the relationship between christianity and paganism. My rejoinder to the last part of his post would come SOON

Is ANY part of islam contradictory to ur beliefs, conscience and convictions?

@Noetic2

Is ANY part of islam contradictory to ur beliefs, conscience and convictions?

If it does, I would not have turned to Islam when 'others' failed.

I never meant to be disrespectful to babs, that was just my way of teasing him

.


Yeye dude. You are my friend along with Davidylan. I am not bothered at all

@Dankol

The last part of your 'write up' and where is Dankol sef

5. The Fallacy of Equivocation: If we assume that everyone has the same definition of such words as God, Jesus, revelation, inspiration, prophet, miracle, etc., we are committing a very simple logical fallacy.

Na for this write up. That should go to you and Muslim has nothing to do with the above.

       #1 When a Muslim says, "Christians and Muslims worship the same God," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. While Christians worship the Triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Muslims worship a Unitarian deity. Obviously, they are worshipping different Gods.

Yes we all know that we do not worship same God as long as you worship three in one God which has not been preached by ANY PROPHETS IN BOTH OT and NT. Jesus in the gospels differentiated himself from God, told us that God sent him and even prayed to God to save him. He even said plainly that he was sent and that he came to do the will of the creator that sent him and that the person that sent him is greater than him.

Also since you are equating Jesus to God, how did Jesus not know the Dday when he is God and even why is sin against Holy Spirit has no forgiveness but that of son of man has no forgiveness? You should also be bold enough to tell me why the person you called God that is Jesus is unaware of season to the the extent that he went to a fig tree expecting to see fruit on it but was quite unfortunate that he could not see and had to curse the fig tree

You could still tell me why Jesus prayed to God more than two times, begging God to waive the cup of death for him

Hope you are aware that they wanted to kill him someone and when he learnt that, he didnt walk openly again.

Make I rest small sef because tori too much


       

#2 When a Muslim says, "We believe in Jesus too," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. The "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not the Jesus of the Bible. Islam preaches "another Jesus" (II Cor. 11:4). The Jesus of the Bible is God the Son who died on the cross for our sins. But the "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not God the Son and he did not die on the cross for our sins. Thus it is erroneous for Muslims to tell Christians that they believe in Jesus too.

Thisis the verse you are trying to quote:

2nd corinthians 11 v 4: For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Now, christianshave been guilty of that because they have been portraying another Jesus different from the one known. Jesus made it plain that he didnt come to die but to preach but you claimed that he came to die for your sins.

Jesus made it plain that you must keep the commandment in order to gain paradise but you twisted it that one must be born again by believing that he is the only begotten that died for your sin thereby being your personal savour and lord.

Jesus said that God is greater than him and its God that sent him and e could not do anything without God's permission but you turned it and claimed that he all knower, all doing and that he is God.

Jesus made it known that he didnt come for you but to the house of Israel but you turned his message that he came to save you when he was not even a christian.

He was also sent with a revelation/gospel but you corrupted his message, dividing it into gospels.

wetin again sef, ok I remembered. He claimed to have been son of man but you errrorneously claimed that he is the only begotten son when we have other begotten sons as well.

So tell, who is following the real Jesus?

       #3 When a Muslim assumes that Christians have the same concept of revelation as Muslims, he is guilty of the fallacy of equivocation. According to Islam, the Qur'an was written in heaven by Allah and has no earthly sources. When we prove that it comes from earthly sources, this threatens the inspiration of the Qur'an.

Haba, may God forgive these authors. It was revealed but compiled by man and no verses were missing. Everything happened to be intact 1400 years ago till now. and can that be said of the bible?


   

    On the other hand, the Bible does not claim that it dropped out of heaven one day. It openly quotes from earthly sources. It uses pre-existing sources without any difficulty whatsoever. Thus while the Qur'an is threatened by historical sources, the Bible is actually confirmed by them.

Does that proves divine inspiration of the bible? Quran still stands test of time and Allah challenges all of you.


     

  #4 When a Muslims tells you that the word "Allah" has only one meaning: "the one, true, universal God," he is assuming a fallacy. The word "allah" has many different meanings.

Okay

           

a. It can be used as a generic term like the English word "God." Thus it can be applied to any god or goddess regardless if if a true or false god is in view. (ex. The "Allahs" of Hinduism.)

Nope. Not any god or goddess but the term "Allah"was used for God.

The same word can be found in Rigveda Book 2 Hymn I verse II in Hindu scripture and also in Sikhism, Gurunanak Sahib is being referred to God as Allah.

It has been even been established that northenr christians call Allah God and even Allah exist in Arabic bible.

           b. The Nation of Islam uses it to refer to Wallace Dodd Ford, Elijah Muhammad, and Louis Farrakhan as "Allah" and teaches that all black people are "Allahs."

We have known the fact about NOI just like you have Jehovah witness, catholic etc.

           c. It has been used by some Christians in Arabic speaking countries as a generic name for the Holy Trinity.

It could not be true. It is being used for a unitarian God called Allah. Ask them and they would tell you that Allah means God as it being used in the bible.

         

  d. It was used in pre-Islamic times by pagan Arabs to refer to the moon-god whowas the father of al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat.

I have corrected this couple of times. The above mentioned are idols in which Allah made it know thatthey were devised by you people.

53:19 Muhsin Khan: Have you then considered Al-Lat, and Al-'Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs).
53:20 Muhsin Khan: And Manat (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third?
53:21 Muhsin Khan: Is it for you the males and for Him the females?
53:22 Muhsin Khan: That indeed is a division most unfair!
53:23 Muhsin Khan: They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow but a                          guess and that which they themselves desire, whereas there has surely come to them the Guidance from their Lord!

e. It is used by Muslims to refer to their god.

Point of correction God or Allah and not god. Do you want us to go to John 1v1 and see the God used therein?

       Islam and Christianity do not worship the same God. The Christian worships the Holy Trinity while the Muslim worships a unitarian deity.

Early christians do not worship trinity and do not believe in it because prophets never preached that.

6. The Fallacy of Force: The Qur'an commands Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims and apostates (Surah 5:33; 9:5, 29).

The above happened during warfare when muslims were oppressed, banished from their homes and when the oppression was too much, Allah ordered them to fight but not to trangress limit and that if they seek peace, they should make peace wit the enemies as Allah does not like transgressors.


       

Some Muslims use a false analogy to answer this argument. They respond by saying, "Well, what about the Crusades? You Christians use violence just like Muslims."

You may ponder on that and OT killings, mass murder etc

       It is logically erroneous to set up a parallel between Muslims killing people in obedience to the Qur'an and Christians killing people in disobedience to the Bible. While the Qur'an commands Jihad, the New Testament forbids it.

This is being unfair as both sides have been experiencing killings in disbedience to the books. Allah values life and told muslims not to kill.

7. The Fallacy Of Confusing Questions of Fact with Questions of Relevance: Whether something is factually true is totally different from the issue of whether you feel it is relevant. The two issues must be kept separate.

Like?

Examples:
       #1 When a Christian argues that some of the beliefs and rituals of the Qur'an came from pre-Islamic Arab paganism, the Muslim will deny it at first. But as more and more evidence is given, the Muslim will often do a flip-flop and begin arguing, "So what! Didn't you Christians get Christmas from the pagans?" The Muslim has now committed three fallacies:

I have talked on this now, why the repetition?  Islam has no link with paganism but yours was establshed on same and most of your festivals attests to that.

           a. The "So what!" argument is dealing with the issue of relevance, not fact. You must stop the Muslim at that point and ask him, "Since you are now dealing with the issue of whether the pagan origins of the Qur'an are relevant, does this mean that you are now agreeing to the fact of the pagan origins of Islam?"

Quran has no pagan and you could provide if you have. I am disagreeing to the lies that it has pagan origin.

           

b. The Muslim has also committed the fallacy of equivocation. The Bible is not threatened by historical sources. It freely refers to them and even quotes them (Acts 17: 28). But the Qur'an denies that it has any earthly historical sources (Surah 25:4-6).
           c. He also committed the fallacy of false analogy. The Bible and the Qur'an are two totally different books. The inspiration of the Bible does not depend upon the fate of the Qur'an because what Muslims claim for the Qur'an is not what Christians claim for the Bible.

I tire o. Repetition. Yes they are different books because Allah revealed the Quran and a Gospel but not revelations/gospels

8. Phonic Fallacies: The phonetic sound of a word should not be used to twist its meaning. For example,
       a. Some Muslims try to prove that the word "Allah" is in the Greek New Testament because of the Greek word alla. But while the word is pronounced "alla," it only means "but" in Greek. It has nothing to do with the Arabic "Allah."

Repetition. I have settled that of Allah. Read again please. my fingers dey pain me
Could you provide the verses and we read your 'but'?


       

b. Some Muslims have claimed that the word "Allah" is in the Bible because the Biblical word "Allelujah." They then mispronounce the word as[b] "Allah-lujah!" [/b] But "Allelujah" is not a compound Arabic word with "Allah" being the first part of the word. It is a Hebrew word with the name of God being "JAH" (or Yahweh) and the verb "alle" meaning "praise to." It means "praise to Yahweh." The Arabic word "Allah" is not in the word.

How did you arrive at this?
     

c. The same error is found in the Muslim argument that the word "Baca" (Psa. 84:6) really means "Mecca." The valley of Baca is in northern Israel.

Are you sure of your quote? Do we need to go into that? Goread your book well and would want you or any of your folks to provide rebuttal and we go into details.


     

  d. Some Muslims have tried to go from "Amen" to "Ahmed" to "Muhammed!" Such nonsense is beyond belief.

Very UNTRUE.

9. "Red Herring" Arguments: When a Muslim is asked to defend the Qur'an, if he turns around and attacks the reliability of the Bible, the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the Crusades, etc., he is introducing irrelevant issues that have no logical bearing on the truthfulness of Islam. He is trying to divert attention from Islam to other issues.
       Furthermore, he is assuming that if he can refute the Bible, then the Qur'an wins by default. If he can refute the Trinity, then Allah wins by default. But this is logically erroneous. You cannot prove your position by refuting someone else's position. The Bible and the Qur'an could both be wrong. Muslims must prove their own book.

The assumptions here are wrong. Have you been able to prove the contradictions, parallel passages, irrelevant words, missing verses in your book?

10. Straw Man Arguments: When you put a false argument into the mouth of your opponent and then proceed to knock it down, you have only created a "straw man" argument. Muslims sometimes either misunderstand or deliberately misquote the arguments Christians give them.
Example:
       Some Muslims have built a "straw man" argument that claims that we teach,

    "The Qur'an teaches that Allah is the Moon-god and that Muslims knowingly believe in and worship the Moon-god and his daughters."

It has been debunked times without number. If Muslims worship the moon, what would they worship in daytime when the sun is up. There are verses where Allah talked about sun, moon etc and they are not godssssssssss

   

   They then knock down this "straw man" argument and claim victory. Of course, we never said such nonsense. What we have said is that while the Qur'an claims that Allah is God and Muslims think they are worshipping the one true God, in reality they are worshipping a false god preached by a false prophet according to a false book.

Read your post up and use that for your faith and book.

Conclusion

At last. My fingers dey pain me sef

The average Muslim has been deceived by Muslim apologists who use such logical fallacies without regard to reason, fact or honesty. But there are many Muslims who want to be rational in their religion and thus have an open mind to rational discourse. Once they see that their arguments are based on logical fallacies, they will be open to the wonderful news that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for our sins on the cross.

Wetin I go talk again sef. You would have seen that the write up happens to be a hogwash as most of the stamenet are lies and couldnt be proven.

A word is enough for the wise. Spend your time to read about Islam and Quran and educate yourself rather than ferreting lies.

babs787:

@Noetic2


If it does, I would not have turned to Islam when 'others' failed.


.


Yeye dude. You are my friend along with Davidylan. I am not bothered at all

So why didnt u answer my questions on the "why i am not a muslim" thread?

@Noetic2

So why didnt u answer my questions on the [b]"why i am not a muslim" thread?[/[/b]quote]

You would notice that I did not post there after my response then because lots of posts were supplied and didnt want to bring you back but since you pointed it out here, I would meet you there right away.

and what EXACTLY did u state there? you are so pathetic!

Babs is confirming the post common fallacies made by muslims like him, thats it, talk of the quran attack the bible, they can't stand to up to proper argument. talk of of muslims, they attack christians just like some answers he gave by pointing to the likes of noetic, davidlan, and todak. it is such a shame on their part, and yet they could not provide us with the original bible. They believe allah is god and yet they still pray for direction. it is a sorry case.

@dankol: You should ask your Church leader(s) which one is ORIGINAL when you present; Catholic Douwy Version, King James Version, Revised Standard Version, American Version, etc before him? You should watch his face (shifting side to side) and observe his body language (preparing to lie to you as he probably curse you under his breath). Whatever you get, if he has the strength to choose one, then ask him what the others are? Can you do that? If you do, accept that one for your own purpose and laugh at the other versions and their readers as fake christians!

My man, and i have not even spoken about the fact that a version changes as the season changes, except that the season 3 monthly, while the Bible is generationally of 20 years!


And what do you mean when you said the Muslims are asking for direction? Is the Quran not relevant and complete as a complete direction for the Muslims? Surah Fatiha, the very first Surah is a complete prayer which started by

acknowledgement of Allah as Lord, God and Creator. And then moves to

confirming the Muslim position and relationship with the sade Creator. And then moves to

Petitioning phase to the end.

The second Surah to the end are the answer and guideline to the above; each way reaffirming the Lordship of Allah, the relationship of His Servant with Him in His Full Authority and the answer to the petition by giving the proper path to follow to receive Altimate Success from Him, in this life and the next life, starting from the point of death!

@Noetic2

and what EXACTLY did u state there? you are so pathetic!

Pele . You should ask yourself if you are okay or seeking the truth really. Everybody gave you the reason but you still claimed that they havent answered you.

You asked why I did not take another man made religion like yours and I explained to you but you still pretended as if you have not read answers. I also told you why I am no more a christian and why I embraced Islam but e no do you, go nack your head for wall and if are ready for mature discussion, call me on bros

@Dankol

Babs is confirming the post common fallacies made by muslims like him, thats it, talk of the quran attack the bible, they can't stand to up to proper argument.

It seems you are a new breed here. Go read my posts particularly on the one between christians and myself and read the biblical verses supplied. I have debated on Jesus dying for your sins, Your saviour, being God, being crucified and read how I supported same with biblical verses while you peeps confirmed fallacies you have been drumming here.

talk of of muslims, they attack christians just like some answers he gave by pointing to the likes of noetic, davidlan, and todak.

You are not being sincere to yourself. You claimed that they attack christians but go your section and read number of muslims posting there compared to your folks here and tell me if you are honest to yourself.

Also, you claimed that I pointed to my friends but your quote caused that by saying:

Note: The average Muslim does not know that his arguments are logically erroneous. He is sincere in his beliefs. Thus you must be patient and kind in sharing with him why his arguments are invalid.

I replied you mentioning David and Noetic. The reason for mentioning their names is that they have been following your quote up with regards to patience and kind and you should read their posts for verification.

it is such a shame on their part, and yet they could not provide us with the original bible.

You are still here looking for original bible when the one you have does not agree. Go check for missing verses, contradictions, incomplete books (66) as against 73 and when you are done, let me know and I would further show you bible from the same publisher, having missing verses. The verses were missing in earlier publication but inserted into the current, so tell me, do the above listed justifies the incompleteness of your book?

Go read your bible, NT  precisely and tell which message was Jesus, was he given gospel or gospels and when done, read the intonation of the bible and tell me if it could be the same gospel given to him during his time.

They believe allah is god and yet they still pray for direction. it is a sorry case.

Point of correction, we believe that Allah is God.


I thought you would provide rebuttal to the rejoinders to your post from the sites

Same silly mistakes of fallacy, only the Almighty God not allah will deliever you. i have no more to say cos all said have been confirmed. Islam is a mistake to the world

@Dankol

Same silly mistakes of fallacy, only the Almighty God not allah will deliever you. i have no more to say cos all said have been confirmed. Islam is a mistake to the world Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry Cry

Dont give yourself HBP, all I said about your religion happened to be true as you confirmed same yourself with your stupid mistakes of fallacy

, are you angry, sorry ooooooooo, the truth is bitter so the saying goes.

@Dankol

are you angry, sorry ooooooooo, the truth is bitter so the saying goes.

Angry ke, far from that sir . You should be able to refute all the exposure I gave to the so called 'write up'

What did you write that i am suppose to refute. The fallacies you confirmed or what . poor you

dankol:

What did you write that i am suppose to refute. The fallacies you confirmed or what . poor you

Na Today

sorry for them oooo

@Dankol

I am not surprised because you displayed your part of the fallacies mentioned by your very self.