Richirich713,
Only on nairaland will people who have never had any formal education on science claim to be scientists.

The other day while roaming the science section, i saw a guy wen never gain admission to uni. call himself a scientist simply cos he copies from science sites and paste on nairaland.

These are the same kids that come here to explain science to us, when you engage them you discover that they know next to nothing.

And they boldly claim to be scientists. . Smh

Im yet to see a real atheist scientist here, all of them seem to be google scientists.

winner01:
Richirich713,
Only on nairaland will people who have never had any formal education on science claim to be scientists.

The other day while roaming the science section, i saw a guy wen never gain admission to uni. call himself a scientist simply cos he copies from science sites and paste on nairaland.

These are the same kids that come here to explain science to us, when you engage them you discover that they know next to nothing.

And they boldly claim to be scientists. . Smh

Im yet to see a real atheist scientist here, all of them seem to be google scientists.

Lol that's so true, there are many Google scientists on nairaland.

They don't realize that Google gives a person what they want evens if it's false.

Richirich713:


Subatomic particles do not literally come from nothing they come from energy.

Define ENERGY is unambiguous terms.

winner01:
The big bang is an effect, not a cause.
The first cause cant be a flying sphagetti monster simply because thats exactly what you want it to be.
I believe your last question has been answered here. https://www.nairaland.com/2816262/god-created-everything-created-god

Can you state without reservations that God is the immediate cause of our Universe? And do you consider the possibility that a string causes and effects connect themselves and the Universe to God?

The question is 'how did energy come into existence' if we can answer that then we may come closer to the answer of the questions of our existence and God's.

Kay17:


Can you state without reservations that God is the immediate cause of our Universe? And do you consider the possibility that a string causes and effects connect themselves and the Universe to God?

God is the cause of our Universe.

winner01:
God is the cause of our Universe.

You are being evasive. And that suggests dishonesty. Since you didn't give a direct answer, I will assume you don't think God is the immediate cause of the Universe.

Richirich713:


Plz name me a book more studied than the bible.



Guy there are hundreds of prophecies of the Messiah in the old testament, put them all together and u will see only Jesus matches the prophecies.

And what makes u conclude he didn't exist?

I'm very sure u not reading what the historians are saying, cut if u were u would recognize that Jesus existence is accepted by practically every historian today.

I didn't say Jesus didn't exist and pls show me any prophecy about Jesus .

urahara:


I didn't say Jesus didn't exist and pls show me any prophecy about Jesus .

•Isaiah 53 predicts the Messiah suffering.

•Psalm 22:16 predicts him being pierced in hands nd feet.

•Daniel 9 gives us a time line when the Messiah will appear ( 1st century).

There are hundreds, if u combine them only Jesus matches the prophecies.

Ps Why do u believe he existed ?, I ask, cuz u said earlier that there is very little historical evidence for his existence.

Richirich713:


•Isaiah 53 predicts the Messiah suffering.

•Psalm 22:16 predicts him being pierced in hands nd feet.

•Daniel 9 gives us a time line when the Messiah will appear ( 1st century).

There are hundreds, if u combine them only Jesus matches the prophecies.

Ps Why do u believe he existed ?, I ask, cuz u said earlier that there is very little historical evidence for his existence.

Isaiah 53

Citing a number of Biblical verses that refer to Israel as
the "servant", many of them from the Book of Isaiah such
as 49:3 He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, in
whom I will display My splendor." Jewish scholars,
and several Christian scholarly books, like Revised
Standard Version Oxford Study Edition Bible, The Revised
Standard Version tell us that Isaiah 53 is about national
Israel and the New English Bible echo this analysis.
Judaism, teaches that the "servant" in question is actually
the nation of Israel . These scholars also argue that
verse 10 cannot be describing Jesus. The verse states:
10 he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days
Taken literally, this description, is inconsistent with the
short, childless life of Jesus.

Isaiah 53 , or Isaiah 52:13-53:12, taken from the Book of
Isaiah , is the last of the four Songs of the Suffering
Servant, and tells the story of a "Man of Sorrows" or
"God's Suffering Servant".
Jewish scripture in Isaiah 52:13 through Isaiah
53:12 describes the servant of the Lord as the
Nation of Israel itself: "My Servant..." ( Isaiah 53:11 ), "...
a man of pains and accustomed to illness ... " (Isaiah
53:3 ). "The theme of Isaiah is jubilation, a song of
celebration at the imminent end of the Babylonian
Captivity ". Judaism sees this passage, especially
"God's Suffering Servant", being written over 2500 years
ago, without a reference to the king Mashiach . Jewish
teaching also does take note of the historical context in
which God's Suffering Servant appears, particularly
because it speaks in the past tense.


Psalm 22

The Masoretic text. The authoritative Hebrew text reads as as lions they are at my hands and feet.it says nothing about piercing.

Daniel 9


Let us begin with the classical
interpretation. Historically, Protestant
Christians have maintained that Daniel's
seventy weeks begin about 458 BC with
the decree issued by Emperor Artaxerxes I
in his seventh year ( Ezra 7:7 , in the context
of Ezra 7 ) authorizing Ezra to rebuild the
Temple and Jerusalem (Ezra 9:9 ). [49] The
seventy weeks end with the ministry of
Jesus and the founding of the Church.
During the final week of Daniel's prophecy,
the Gospel is preached only to the Jews
because of the "strong covenant" that
Jesus the "anointed one" or Messiah made
with the Jewish people. The seventieth
week begins in the fall of 26 AD with
Jesus' baptism by John and the beginning
of his ministry to the Jews. It culminates in
the spring of 30 AD with Jesus being "cut
off" at the Crucifixion. Jesus' atonement
on Calvary did thereby "finish the
transgression," "put an end to sin," "atone
for iniquity," and "seal both vision and
prophet" (Daniel 9:24 ), thus rendering
"sacrifice and offering" at the Temple
obsolete. Finally, the seventieth week ends
in the fall of 33 AD with the martyrdom of
Stephen and the conversion of Paul and
Cornelius. At this point the mission to the
Jews ends and the mission to the Gentiles
begins. [50]
The advantage of this theory is that it
interprets the 490-year period in a
straightforward way, and it has more-or-
less plausible starting and ending points.
However, it does have its problems. To
begin with, the classical Christian theory
does not provide a plausible explanation
for Daniel's clear distinction between the
seven weeks and the sixty-two weeks.
The classical interpretation also ignores
the obvious parallels between Daniel
9:24-27 on the one hand, and Daniel
8:9-26 ; 11:31-45 on the other. Actually, all
three passages unmistakably describe
Antiochus Epiphanes committing a
desolating sacrilege or "abomination that
makes desolate" at the Temple and
bringing normal Jewish sacrifices to an
end for about three and a half years (cf.
Daniel 7:25 ; 12:6-7,11 ). Daniel 9 places
this event at the end of the seventy weeks,
and the other two passages place it at "the
time of the end." The "abominations" of
"the prince who is to come" in Daniel 9 are
to be understood in the light of the
unspeakable blasphemies of Antiochus
Epiphanes described in the other two
passages (cf. also Daniel 7:8,20,25 ).
To make their scheme work, adherents of
the classical Christian theory must
interpret verses 26 and 27 as references to
the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The
problem here is that the fall of Jerusalem
lies thirty-seven years outside of the
seventy-weeks scheme. Since "desolations
are decreed," the Romans under General
Titus, "the people of the prince who is to
come," were to "destroy the city and the
sanctuary" of Jerusalem in 70 AD, long
after the seventieth week is over, to punish
the Jews for their murder of their Messiah.
This is an awkward and arbitrary leap.
Another problem with this interpretation is
that the Hebrew word here translated in
verse 26 as "destroy" is shakhat. In its
various grammatical forms, it only means
to "mar," "injure," "spoil," "ruin," "pervert," or
"corrupt." This can easily refer to the
trashing of Jerusalem by Antiochus
Epiphanes, but not to Titus' razing of
Jerusalem and its Temple to the ground.

Richirich713:


•

Ps Why do u believe he existed ?, I ask, cuz u said earlier that there is very little historical evidence for his existence.

I emphasized on the little historical evidence because when one looks at men like Alexander the great there are lots of historical evidence for his existence but why is there so little for this God man.

urahara:




Isaiah 53

Citing a number of Biblical verses that refer to Israel as
the "servant", many of them from the Book of Isaiah such
as 49:3 He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, in
whom I will display My splendor." Jewish scholars,
and several Christian scholarly books, like Revised
Standard Version Oxford Study Edition Bible, The Revised
Standard Version tell us that Isaiah 53 is about national
Israel and the New English Bible echo this analysis.
Judaism, teaches that the "servant" in question is actually
the nation of Israel . These scholars also argue that
verse 10 cannot be describing Jesus. The verse states:
10 he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days
Taken literally, this description, is inconsistent with the
short, childless life of Jesus.

Isaiah 53 , or Isaiah 52:13-53:12, taken from the Book of
Isaiah , is the last of the four Songs of the Suffering
Servant, and tells the story of a "Man of Sorrows" or
"God's Suffering Servant".
Jewish scripture in Isaiah 52:13 through Isaiah
53:12 describes the servant of the Lord as the
Nation of Israel itself: "My Servant..." ( Isaiah 53:11 ), "...
a man of pains and accustomed to illness ... " (Isaiah
53:3 ). "The theme of Isaiah is jubilation, a song of
celebration at the imminent end of the Babylonian
Captivity ". Judaism sees this passage, especially
"God's Suffering Servant", being written over 2500 years
ago, without a reference to the king Mashiach . Jewish
teaching also does take note of the historical context in
which God's Suffering Servant appears, particularly
because it speaks in the past tense.

U know that this interpretation came about by Rabbi Rashi (1040-1105). The ancient jewish sages( 2nd-6th century) All said it spoke of the Messiah.

urahara:

Psalm 22

The Masoretic text. The authoritative Hebrew text reads as as lions they are at my hands and feet.it says nothing about piercing.

Again following a modern jewish interpretation, the
Septuagint a Greek translation written about 200 years before Jesus says pierced.

The oldest Hebrew scrolls says pierced also.

Also even if it said lion it's no problem.

urahara:

Daniel 9


Let us begin with the classical
interpretation. Historically, Protestant
Christians have maintained that Daniel's
seventy weeks begin about 458 BC with
the decree issued by Emperor Artaxerxes I
in his seventh year ( Ezra 7:7 , in the context
of Ezra 7 ) authorizing Ezra to rebuild the
Temple and Jerusalem (Ezra 9:9 ). [49] The
seventy weeks end with the ministry of
Jesus and the founding of the Church.
During the final week of Daniel's prophecy,
the Gospel is preached only to the Jews
because of the "strong covenant" that
Jesus the "anointed one" or Messiah made
with the Jewish people. The seventieth
week begins in the fall of 26 AD with
Jesus' baptism by John and the beginning
of his ministry to the Jews. It culminates in
the spring of 30 AD with Jesus being "cut
off" at the Crucifixion. Jesus' atonement
on Calvary did thereby "finish the
transgression," "put an end to sin," "atone
for iniquity," and "seal both vision and
prophet" (Daniel 9:24 ), thus rendering
"sacrifice and offering" at the Temple
obsolete. Finally, the seventieth week ends
in the fall of 33 AD with the martyrdom of
Stephen and the conversion of Paul and
Cornelius. At this point the mission to the
Jews ends and the mission to the Gentiles
begins. [50]
The advantage of this theory is that it
interprets the 490-year period in a
straightforward way, and it has more-or-
less plausible starting and ending points.
However, it does have its problems. To
begin with, the classical Christian theory
does not provide a plausible explanation
for Daniel's clear distinction between the
seven weeks and the sixty-two weeks.
The classical interpretation also ignores
the obvious parallels between Daniel
9:24-27 on the one hand, and Daniel
8:9-26 ; 11:31-45 on the other. Actually, all
three passages unmistakably describe
Antiochus Epiphanes committing a
desolating sacrilege or "abomination that
makes desolate" at the Temple and
bringing normal Jewish sacrifices to an
end for about three and a half years (cf.
Daniel 7:25 ; 12:6-7,11 ). Daniel 9 places
this event at the end of the seventy weeks,
and the other two passages place it at "the
time of the end." The "abominations" of
"the prince who is to come" in Daniel 9 are
to be understood in the light of the
unspeakable blasphemies of Antiochus
Epiphanes described in the other two
passages (cf. also Daniel 7:8,20,25 ).
To make their scheme work, adherents of
the classical Christian theory must
interpret verses 26 and 27 as references to
the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The
problem here is that the fall of Jerusalem
lies thirty-seven years outside of the
seventy-weeks scheme. Since "desolations
are decreed," the Romans under General
Titus, "the people of the prince who is to
come," were to "destroy the city and the
sanctuary" of Jerusalem in 70 AD, long
after the seventieth week is over, to punish
the Jews for their murder of their Messiah.
This is an awkward and arbitrary leap.
Another problem with this interpretation is
that the Hebrew word here translated in
verse 26 as "destroy" is shakhat. In its
various grammatical forms, it only means
to "mar," "injure," "spoil," "ruin," "pervert," or
"corrupt." This can easily refer to the
trashing of Jerusalem by Antiochus
Epiphanes, but not to Titus' razing of
Jerusalem and its Temple to the ground.

Guy I'm not looking to debate u on the prophecies.

To u prophecies can't come true, so no matter what I say u will reject it and take the other road. For eg. If I were to provide u with evidence that the Gospels were written before 70AD. You would reject it mainly because the gospels have Jesus making a prophecy of the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

urahara:


I emphasized on the little historical evidence because when one looks at men like Alexander the great there are lots of historical evidence for his existence but why is there so little for this God man.

But isn't the two earliest biographies of Alexander the great written 400 years after him?

Richirich713:


U know that this interpretation came about by Rabbi Rashi (1040-1105). The ancient jewish sages( 2nd-6th century) All said it spoke of the Messiah.




Again following a modern jewish interpretation, the
Septuagint a Greek translation written about 200 years before Jesus says pierced.

The oldest Hebrew scrolls says pierced also.

Also even if it said lion it's no problem.






Guy I'm not looking to debate u on the prophecies.

To u prophecies can't come true, so no matter what I say u will reject it and take the other road. For eg. If I were to provide u with evidence that the Gospels were written before 70AD. You would reject it mainly because the gospels have Jesus making a prophecy of the destruction of the temple in 70AD.






Rabbi Rashi

Rabbi Rashi actually dealt with this and said it is israel

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_53

The Hebrew scrolls say as a lion and not pierced. They bear more weight than the septugaint which is the Greek version and they are far older than the septugaint.


I know the gospel of mark was written from probably 66 to 70 ad. He said no stone shall be left unturned but the wailing wall still stands. After talking about the temple his disciples then ask him when all this shall take place. He then talks of the end of the world and his coming which he said would happen in their life time. This prophecy has failed woefully. 28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will
not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in
his kingdom M

Let me enlighten you even bahullah of the bahai faith made predictions that came to past. The virgin Mary is said to have made predictions which have come to past. Nostradamus made predictions which came to past.
If the bible has 100 prophecies of which only 1 is false that automatically proves that it is not the word of God.

You would Reject it if I tell you census of quirinius took place at 6ad because Matthew says Jesus born at the time of herod while Luke has him born at the time of census of quirinius. King herod died at 4bc while the census of quirinius took place at 6 ad. A gap of 10 years

Richirich713:


U know that this interpretation came about by Rabbi Rashi (1040-1105). The ancient jewish sages( 2nd-6th century) All said it spoke of the Messiah.




Again following a modern jewish interpretation, the
Septuagint a Greek translation written about 200 years before Jesus says pierced.

The oldest Hebrew scrolls says pierced also.

Also even if it said lion it's no problem.






Guy I'm not looking to debate u on the prophecies.

To u prophecies can't come true, so no matter what I say u will reject it and take the other road. For eg. If I were to provide u with evidence that the Gospels were written before 70AD. You would reject it mainly because the gospels have Jesus making a prophecy of the destruction of the temple in 70AD.






Rabbi Rashi

Rabbi Rashi actually dealt with this and said it is israel

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_53

The Hebrew scrolls say as a lion and not pierced. They bear more weight than the septugaint which is the Greek version and they are far older than the septugaint.


I know the gospel of mark was written from probably 66 to 70 ad. He said no stone shall be left unturned but the wailing wall still stands. After talking about the temple his disciples then ask him when all this shall take place. He then talks of the end of the world and his coming which he said would happen in their life time. This prophecy has failed woefully. 28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will
not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in
his kingdom M

Let me enlighten you even bahullah of the bahai faith made predictions that came to past. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá'í_prophecies The virgin Mary is said to have made predictions which have come to past. Nostradamus made predictions which came to past.
If the bible has 100 prophecies of which only 1 is false that automatically proves that it is not the word of God.

You would Reject it if I tell you census of quirinius took place at 6ad because Matthew says Jesus born at the time of herod while Luke has him born at the time of census of quirinius. King herod died at 4bc while the census of quirinius took place at 6 ad. A gap of 10 years

urahara:


Rabbi Rashi actually dealt with this and said it is israel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_53

He never dealt with it, he reinterpreted it to avoid Jesus. He went against his predecessors who said it speaks about the Messiah.

urahara:


The Hebrew scrolls say as a lion and not pierced. They bear more weight than the septugaint which is the Greek version and they are far older than the septugaint.

Guy the Masoretic Text Dates to about 1000 AD , the Masoretic manuscripts are dated 3rd nd 4th century and while the Septuagint Dates before Jesus by over 100 years.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest Hebrew manuscripts, and they say pierce.

urahara:


I know the gospel of mark was written from probably 66 to 70 ad. He said no stone shall be left unturned but the wailing wall still stands.

Was this retaining wall part of the structure of the temple?

urahara:

After talking about the temple his disciples then ask him when all this shall take place. He then talks of the end of the world and his coming which he said would happen in their life time. This prophecy has failed woefully. 28 Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will
not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in
his kingdom M

Who said he was talking about the end of the world?

"And he said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with powerr.'" Mark 9:1

"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.........2 Peter 1:16-18

urahara:

Let me enlighten you even bahullah of the bahai faith made predictions that came to past. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá'í_prophecies The virgin Mary is said to have made predictions which have come to past. Nostradamus made predictions which came to past.

I don't know much about Bahai, so I will have to look in that, as for Nostradamus I think that people misinterpreting his writings, for eg many thought he said the world ending in 2012. And I'm not sure what u mean of virgin mary.

urahara:


You would Reject it if I tell you census of quirinius took place at 6ad because Matthew says Jesus born at the time of herod while Luke has him born at the time of census of quirinius. King herod died at 4bc while the census of quirinius took place at 6 ad. A gap of 10 years

A reasonable explanation is that the census was started during the reign of herod the great but was only completed and finalized at the time of Quirinius, this could be supported by the fact that Archelaus messed up Judea and was replaced by Quirinius, who was brought in to fix a lot of the problems cuz but Archelaus.

Also the word translated as governor can refer to a wide range of Roman positions and does not necessarily mean governor.

Richirich713:


He never dealt with it, he reinterpreted it to avoid Jesus. He went against his predecessors who said it speaks about the Messiah.




Guy the Masoretic Text Dates to about 1000 AD , the Masoretic manuscripts are dated 3rd nd 4th century and while the Septuagint Dates before Jesus by over 100 years.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest Hebrew manuscripts, and they say pierce.





Was this retaining wall part of the structure of the temple?



Who said he was talking about the end of the world?

"And he said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with powerr.'" Mark 9:1

"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.........2 Peter 1:16-18




I don't know much about Bahai, so I will have to look in that, as for Nostradamus I think that people misinterpreting his writings, for eg many thought he said the world ending in 2012. And I'm not sure what u mean of virgin mary.

Psalm 22 is not even part of the dead Sea scrolls. The word "kaari" is in Isaiah 38:13 - "I
reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so
will he break all my bones: from day even
to night wilt thou make an end of
me." (KJV) The exact same word is
translated there as "as a lion". Isn't odd
that they would translate that word kaari
to "as a lion" EVERY OTHER PLACE IN
THE BIBLE, but here, in Psalm 22, they
translated as "they pierced"? If you don't
believe me, get a KJV study Bible or a
concordance and look it up for yourself!


The wailing wall is not part of the temple. U are right.

Richirich713:


He never dealt with it, he reinterpreted it to avoid Jesus. He went against his predecessors who said it speaks about the Messiah.




Guy the Masoretic Text Dates to about 1000 AD , the Masoretic manuscripts are dated 3rd nd 4th century and while the Septuagint Dates before Jesus by over 100 years.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest Hebrew manuscripts, and they say pierce.





Was this retaining wall part of the structure of the temple?



Who said he was talking about the end of the world?

"And he said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with powerr.'" Mark 9:1

"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.........2 Peter 1:16-18




I don't know much about Bahai, so I will have to look in that, as for Nostradamus I think that people misinterpreting his writings, for eg many thought he said the world ending in 2012. And I'm not sure what u mean of virgin mary.

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His
Father with His angels, and will then repay every man
according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of
those who are standing here who will not taste death until
they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. “ (Matthew
16: 27, 28)
“Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you,
‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold,
He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the
lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west,
so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse
is, there the vultures will gather.
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun
will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the
stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens
will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will
appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will
mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the
clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will
send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will
gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end
of the sky to the other.
Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has
already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know
that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these
things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say
to you, this generation will not pass away until all these
things take place. “ (Matthew 24: 25-34)



“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with
great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels,
and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from
the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has
already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know
that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these
things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until
all these things take place… “ (Mark 13:26-30)


In these passages Jesus is explicit about his return. He
said that he would return riding the clouds with angels to
judge the world and that with the sound of a trumpet he
would send his angels to gather his chosen ones from the
Earth. This would be no secret, invisible or “spiritual”
event. Instead, the whole world would see him in the sky
just the whole world sees the light of the sun. This was to
happen some time during the generation of those to
whom he was speaking. To make it clear to his
listeners that this event would not be in the distant future,
he told them that some of them who were there listening
to him would still be alive to see it.

“But Jesus kept silent and the high priest said to Him, “I
adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are
the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have
said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see
the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and
coming on the clouds of heaven. “” (Matthew 26: 63, 64)

Richirich713:


A reasonable explanation is that the census was started during the reign of herod the great but was only completed and finalized at the time of Quirinius, this could be supported by the fact that Archelaus messed up Judea and was replaced by Quirinius, who was brought in to fix a lot of the problems cuz but Archelaus.

Also the word translated as governor can refer to a wide range of Roman positions and does not necessarily mean governor.

The census obviously couldn't have held during the time of herod reign as Judea was a client state. Before 6 C.E. Judaea was a nominally free kingdom, not a
Roman province. Having sided with Augustus in the civil war
that established him as emperor, Judaea was granted a
favorable treaty assuring relative independence. This is
proven by the coin evidence that Judaea continued to be
governed by its own kings and rulers, not Roman officials,
until 6 C.E., and extensively confirmed by Josephus and
Cassius Dio. Though such "allied kingdoms" were kept
under a tight leash and informally controlled and meddled
with, all evidence regarding the legal and political practices
of Roman emperors in the first century and before confirms
that these states were not subject to direct Roman
administration, taxation or levies. That was, in fact, the very
point of not annexing them as provinces: not only to reward
friendly states (and thus encourage other states to be
friendly), but to avoid the headache and expense of taking
over a region that was already pacified, subservient, and
paying sufficient dues.
Therefore, it is historically impossible that a Roman census
was conducted under a Roman provincial governor when
Judaea was still an allied kingdom. But it was typical and
logical that immediately upon annexing a new territory a
census would be taken of it. This was necessary to begin
direct taxation and levies. So when Josephus describes
Archelaus being removed from office, then Judaea being
annexed to Syria and placed under the Roman command of
Quirinius and his prefect Coponius, and then a census being
conducted for the specific purpose of taking account of
what Archelaus had left them, this description makes
complete historical sense. In contrast, no other
hypothesized "census" scenario makes any historical sense
at all.
As Josephus reports, and as all logic and precedent entail,
Judaea was not being directly taxed by Rome nor
administered by Romans before the year 6, and therefore
there would be no purpose for Augustus to order a census
there (Luke 2:1 ). Since forcing such a census on an allied
kingdom in violation of its honor and its treaties would be
such an astonishing and devastating insult contrary to all
known precedent, there is no way it wouldn't have been
noticed by historians like Josephus, nor any reason the
Romans would undertake such a pointless and dangerous
task. They would have nothing to gain by it, and plenty to
lose, and Augustus was not so reckless as to think
otherwise.

Luke's choice of
vocabulary is somewhat imprecise, using a word that can
refer to many different positions of command. Seizing on
this, inerrantists argue that Luke meant "when Quirinius was
holding a command in Syria," and not "when Quirinius was
governing Syria." But stretching the word like this requires
ignoring the grammar. Luke says "of Syria," not "in Syria,"
and thus he could not have been referring to some
command in Syria but only a command of Syria. Even if we
ignore Luke's grammar, the only real "command" anyone
can find for Quirinius is a war he fought in Galatia, probably
between 6 and 1 B.C.E. But there is no logical way Luke
would refer to a census in Syria by referencing a war in
Galatia, and no one would ever write or read "governing
Syria" as meaning "fighting a war in Galatia." Unless Luke
was a profoundly stupid man, or erred in his historical facts,
he would have named the actual governor of Syria who
oversaw a census in Judaea, not some unrelated officer in a
faraway province.

urahara:



Psalm 22 is not even part of the dead Sea scrolls. The word "kaari" is in Isaiah 38:13 - "I
reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so
will he break all my bones: from day even
to night wilt thou make an end of
me." (KJV) The exact same word is
translated there as "as a lion". Isn't odd
that they would translate that word kaari
to "as a lion" EVERY OTHER PLACE IN
THE BIBLE, but here, in Psalm 22, they
translated as "they pierced"? If you don't
believe me, get a KJV study Bible or a
concordance and look it up for yourself!


The wailing wall is not part of the temple. U are right.

U are not wrong about the Dead Sea Scrolls nor am I, since the Nachal Chever scrolls are sometimes classified with the Dead Sea Scrolls.


It's not odd that that the Hebrew word "kaari" is translated "as a lion" since that is a correct translation.

But that's not the issue, the problem is there are 2 variant readings at Psalm 22:16 , some manuscripts say "Kaari" others say "Karu ".

In Hebrew they spelled almost identical, only one letter "length" changes the meaning. I hope u see where I'm getting.

It's a scribal error, one reading is slightly off.

The earliest Hebrew manuscripts(Nachal Chever scrolls) say "Karu" , there are even early Masoretic manuscripts that have "Karu".

U might have seen on the Internet how many jewish sites say Christians corrupted the text, but they won't mention that the Septuagint was a translation done by the ancient jews, and it was done b4 Christianity even existed.

urahara:


In these passages Jesus is explicit about his return. He
said that he would return riding the clouds with angels to
judge the world and that with the sound of a trumpet he
would send his angels to gather his chosen ones from the
Earth. This would be no secret, invisible or “spiritual”
event. Instead, the whole world would see him in the sky
just the whole world sees the light of the sun. This was to
happen some time during the generation of those to
whom he was speaking. To make it clear to his
listeners that this event would not be in the distant future,
he told them that some of them who were there listening
to him would still be alive to see it.

You are correct, Jesus is talking in those passages about his second coming.

But Mark 9:1 is not talking about his second coming, it's about his Transfiguration.

"And he said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.'" (Mark 9:1)

Matthew also mentions it :

Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)

But look what he says in the next verse :

"After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus.

"While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 17:1-5)

Look what the eyewitness Peter had to say about his Transfiguration :

"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the POWER and COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.' We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain." 2 Peter 1:16-18

Ps when Jesus uses the term "come" it does not always refer to his 2nd coming.

Examples:

"I will not leave you as orphans; I will COME to you." John 14:18

"Jesus replied, ‘If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will COME to him and make our home with him.’" John 14:23

"They were all filled with awe and praised God. ‘A great prophet has appeared among us,' they said. ‘God has COME to help his people'. Luke 7:16

Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent,I will COME to YOUand remove your lampstand from its place." Revelation 2:5

"Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up,I will COME like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will COME to YOU." Revelation 3:3

urahara:


The census obviously couldn't have held during the time of herod reign as Judea was a client state. Before 6 C.E. Judaea was a nominally free kingdom, not a
Roman province. Having sided with Augustus in the civil war
that established him as emperor, Judaea was granted a
favorable treaty assuring relative independence. This is
proven by the coin evidence that Judaea continued to be
governed by its own kings and rulers, not Roman officials,
until 6 C.E., and extensively confirmed by Josephus and
Cassius Dio. Though such "allied kingdoms" were kept
under a tight leash and informally controlled and meddled
with, all evidence regarding the legal and political practices
of Roman emperors in the first century and before confirms
that these states were not subject to direct Roman
administration, taxation or levies. That was, in fact, the very
point of not annexing them as provinces: not only to reward
friendly states (and thus encourage other states to be
friendly), but to avoid the headache and expense of taking
over a region that was already pacified, subservient, and
paying sufficient dues.
Therefore, it is historically impossible that a Roman census
was conducted under a Roman provincial governor when
Judaea was still an allied kingdom. But it was typical and
logical that immediately upon annexing a new territory a
census would be taken of it. This was necessary to begin
direct taxation and levies. So when Josephus describes
Archelaus being removed from office, then Judaea being
annexed to Syria and placed under the Roman command of
Quirinius and his prefect Coponius, and then a census being
conducted for the specific purpose of taking account of
what Archelaus had left them, this description makes
complete historical sense. In contrast, no other
hypothesized "census" scenario makes any historical sense
at all.
As Josephus reports, and as all logic and precedent entail,
Judaea was not being directly taxed by Rome nor
administered by Romans before the year 6, and therefore
there would be no purpose for Augustus to order a census
there (Luke 2:1 ). Since forcing such a census on an allied
kingdom in violation of its honor and its treaties would be
such an astonishing and devastating insult contrary to all
known precedent, there is no way it wouldn't have been
noticed by historians like Josephus, nor any reason the
Romans would undertake such a pointless and dangerous
task. They would have nothing to gain by it, and plenty to
lose, and Augustus was not so reckless as to think
otherwise.

Allied kingdom? There is historical evidence that challenges this, Josephus tells us "Around 7BC Herod fell out of favor with Augustus and was treated more like a subject than a friend"

This means Herod autonomy would have been taken away, add that to the fact Herod was getting old and his sons would fight for future rule of the area, so it would have been a perfect time for a census to be conducted to prepare for the future rule of the area.

Also Josephus tells us "The people of Herod domain sore allegiance to Herod and Augustus" which suggests Roman had a greater involvement in Herod Kingdom.

Ps do u considered Josephus historical writings accurate evens tho he was not a eyewitness ?

urahara:


Luke's choice of
vocabulary is somewhat imprecise, using a word that can
refer to many different positions of command. Seizing on
this, inerrantists argue that Luke meant "when Quirinius was
holding a command in Syria," and not "when Quirinius was
governing Syria." But stretching the word like this requires
ignoring the grammar. Luke says "of Syria," not "in Syria,"
and thus he could not have been referring to some
command in Syria but only a command of Syria. Even if we
ignore Luke's grammar, the only real "command" anyone
can find for Quirinius is a war he fought in Galatia, probably
between 6 and 1 B.C.E. But there is no logical way Luke
would refer to a census in Syria by referencing a war in
Galatia, and no one would ever write or read "governing
Syria" as meaning "fighting a war in Galatia." Unless Luke
was a profoundly stupid man, or erred in his historical facts,
he would have named the actual governor of Syria who
oversaw a census in Judaea, not some unrelated officer in a
faraway province.

plz quote a Greek scholar who thinks the Grammer is wrong.

Luke was not stupid he was a first-class historian according to even a Atheist( Sir William Ramsay who later converted) who evens argues in his book "was Christ born in Bethlehem" that Quirinius was most likely in the region during the time of Jesus birth.

Also there is no direct contradiction between Luke and other historical data, adding to the fact that we lack historical info on the life of quirinius.

Richirich713:


U are not wrong about the Dead Sea Scrolls nor am I, since the Nachal Chever scrolls are sometimes classified with the Dead Sea Scrolls.


It's not odd that that the Hebrew word "kaari" is translated "as a lion" since that is a correct translation.

But that's not the issue, the problem is there are 2 variant readings at Psalm 22:16 , some manuscripts say "Kaari" others say "Karu ".

In Hebrew they spelled almost identical, only one letter "length" changes the meaning. I hope u see where I'm getting.

It's a scribal error, one reading is slightly off.

The earliest Hebrew manuscripts(Nachal Chever scrolls) say "Karu" , there are even early Masoretic manuscripts that have "Karu".

U might have seen on the Internet how many jewish sites say Christians corrupted the text, but they won't mention that the Septuagint was a translation done by the ancient jews, and it was done b4 Christianity even existed.

Nachal chever scrolls were written 150 ad.

The transfiguration of Jesus is a story recorded in
Matthew 17, Mark 9, and Luke 9. The first problem is that
these Gospels place the transfiguration at different times.
In Matthew, it occurs after Jesus
made the prediction about his second coming. That might
make it seem reasonable to think that it was a fulfillment
of the earlier prediction. However, Mark and Luke place
the transfiguration event before Jesus made spoke the
prophecy. Laying aside the obvious discrepency in timing,
we can say for certain that an event occurring before a
prediction is made can’t be fulfilling the prediction. The
“prediction” wouldn’t be a prediction at all.
The preceding verse (verse 27) starts off the description
of Jesus’ coming by saying he would come “in glory” with
angels to dole out judgment to “every man”. That is not
what happened in the transfiguration stories.

. Some try to make it work
by separating verse 28 from the preceding verse so that
the two verses talk about different “comings”. This is a
baseless tinkering with the passage in order to make a
doctrine fit the scripture. The same Christians who do this
will accuse other of taking verses out of context when
they disagree with an interpretation. Yet, this is exactly
what they do here.

Transfiguration Luke 9
Prophecy of end time Luke 21

Transfiguration mark 9

Prophecy of end time mark 13


WHAT NEW TESTAMENT WRITERS BELIEVED
“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to
our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has
spoken to us by his Son…” (Hebrews 1:1-2)
“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they
were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of
the ages has come .” (1 Corinthians 10:11)
“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and
good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit
of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as
you see the Day drawing near .” (Hebrews 10:24-25)
“Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that
antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come.
Therefore we know that it is the last hour.” (1 John 2:18)
“Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the
appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those
who have wives live as though they had none, and those who
mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who
rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy
as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the
world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present
form of this world is passing away .” (1 Corinthians
7:27,29-31)
“ The end of all things is near …” (1 Peter 4:7)
These passages show that these New Testament writers
did believed the apocalypse was very near. They were
clear that they were living in the last days when Jesus
was to return in the clouds and bring about the end of
the world as they knew it.
“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we
who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will
not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord
himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command,
with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the
trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we
who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with
them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will
always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
“ We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed “ (1 Cor.
15:51)
“…the coming of the Lord is near . … the Judge is standing
right at the door.” (James 5:8, 9)
The writer of these passages tells those he was writing
to that Jesus was coming in their day. He recognizes that
some believers had already died causing concern about
the fulfillment of Jesus prediction. He reassures his
readers that they would not all die before Jesus comes.
He tells them that believers who have died will be
resurrected when Jesus returns. Upon his
arrival, resurrected believers and those who are still alive
will be instantaneously transformed into immortal beings
and raptured up together to meet Jesus in the sky.
Note his consistent use of the word “we”. The writer was
obviously not speaking of Christians in some distant
future, but of believers in his day including himself. There
is no good reason to read “we” as if it refers to Christians
alive thousands of years in the future.

urahara:


Nachal chever scrolls were written 150 ad.

Plz give a scholarly reference to that date , even tho that dates is older than the Masoretic manuscripts.

urahara:

The transfiguration of Jesus is a story recorded in
Matthew 17, Mark 9, and Luke 9. The first problem is that
these Gospels place the transfiguration at different times.
In Matthew, it occurs after Jesus
made the prediction about his second coming. That might
make it seem reasonable to think that it was a fulfillment
of the earlier prediction. However, Mark and Luke place
the transfiguration event before Jesus made spoke the
prophecy. Laying aside the obvious discrepency in timing,
we can say for certain that an event occurring before a
prediction is made can’t be fulfilling the prediction. The
“prediction” wouldn’t be a prediction at all.
The preceding verse (verse 27) starts off the description
of Jesus’ coming by saying he would come “in glory” with
angels to dole out judgment to “every man”. That is not
what happened in the transfiguration stories.

. Some try to make it work
by separating verse 28 from the preceding verse so that
the two verses talk about different “comings”. This is a
baseless tinkering with the passage in order to make a
doctrine fit the scripture. The same Christians who do this
will accuse other of taking verses out of context when
they disagree with an interpretation. Yet, this is exactly
what they do here.

Guy I'm not sure u understand the argument here, when Jesus said he coming with the clouds, it's got nothing to do with the Transfiguration.

When he says he coming with the clouds that definitely refers to his 2nd coming to judge the world. How do I know that? Cuz he is talking about the old testament son of Man prophecy , that's why the priest accused him of blasphemy.

urahara:

Transfiguration Luke 9
Prophecy of end time Luke 21

Transfiguration mark 9

Prophecy of end time mark 13

Again the Transfiguration has nothing to do with the end of time prophecy. U still think that when Jesus say "come " it must refer to his second coming which is false, I gave u other examples where use "come " differently.

urahara:


WHAT NEW TESTAMENT WRITERS BELIEVED
“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to
our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has
spoken to us by his Son…” (Hebrews 1:1-2)
“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they
were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of
the ages has come .” (1 Corinthians 10:11)
“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and
good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit
of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as
you see the Day drawing near .” (Hebrews 10:24-25)
“Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that
antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come.
Therefore we know that it is the last hour.” (1 John 2:18)
“Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the
appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those
who have wives live as though they had none, and those who
mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who
rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy
as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the
world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present
form of this world is passing away .” (1 Corinthians
7:27,29-31)
“ The end of all things is near …” (1 Peter 4:7)
These passages show that these New Testament writers
did believed the apocalypse was very near. They were
clear that they were living in the last days when Jesus
was to return in the clouds and bring about the end of
the world as they knew it.
“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we
who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will
not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord
himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command,
with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the
trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we
who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with
them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will
always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
“ We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed “ (1 Cor.
15:51)
“…the coming of the Lord is near . … the Judge is standing
right at the door.” (James 5:8, 9)
The writer of these passages tells those he was writing
to that Jesus was coming in their day. He recognizes that
some believers had already died causing concern about
the fulfillment of Jesus prediction. He reassures his
readers that they would not all die before Jesus comes.
He tells them that believers who have died will be
resurrected when Jesus returns. Upon his
arrival, resurrected believers and those who are still alive
will be instantaneously transformed into immortal beings
and raptured up together to meet Jesus in the sky.
Note his consistent use of the word “we”. The writer was
obviously not speaking of Christians in some distant
future, but of believers in his day including himself. There
is no good reason to read “we” as if it refers to Christians
alive thousands of years in the future.

Again those passages have again has nothing to do with the Transfiguration, specifically on what Peter Said about it.

Richirich713:




Plz give a scholarly reference to that date , even tho that dates is older than the Masoretic manuscripts.





Guy I'm not sure u understand the argument here, when Jesus said he coming with the clouds, it's got nothing to do with the Transfiguration.

When he says he coming with the clouds that definitely refers to his 2nd coming to judge the world. How do I know that? Cuz he is talking about the old testament son of Man prophecy , that's why the priest accused him of blasphemy.



Again the Transfiguration has nothing to do with the end of time prophecy. U still think that when Jesus say "come " it must refer to his second coming which is false, I gave u other examples where use "come " differently.




Again those passages have again has nothing to do with the Transfiguration, specifically on what Peter Said about it.

And he said his coming in the clouds with his angels would be in that generation. Before some of them would taste death

Richirich713:




Plz give a scholarly reference to that date , even tho that dates is older than the Masoretic manuscripts.





Guy I'm not sure u understand the argument here, when Jesus said he coming with the clouds, it's got nothing to do with the Transfiguration.

When he says he coming with the clouds that definitely refers to his 2nd coming to judge the world. How do I know that? Cuz he is talking about the old testament son of Man prophecy , that's why the priest accused him of blasphemy.



Again the Transfiguration has nothing to do with the end of time prophecy. U still think that when Jesus say "come " it must refer to his second coming which is false, I gave u other examples where use "come " differently.




Again those passages have again has nothing to do with the Transfiguration, specifically on what Peter Said about it.

26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great (kingly) power and glory (majesty and splendor).

27 And then He will send out the angels and will gather together His elect (those He has picked out for Himself) from the four winds, from the farthest bounds of the earth to the farthest bounds of heaven.

28 Now learn a lesson from the fig tree: as soon as its branch becomes tender and it puts forth its leaves, you recognize andknow that summer is near.

29 So also, when you see these things happening, you may recognize and know that He is near, at [the very] door.

30 Surely I say to you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at that one time) positively will not perish or pass away before all these things take place.

31 Heaven and earth will perishand pass away, but My words will not perish or pass away.

urahara:


And he said his coming in the clouds with his angels would be in that generation. Before some of them would taste death

Could u plz show me where Jesus says that

Richirich713:




Plz give a scholarly reference to that date , even tho that dates is older than the Masoretic manuscripts.





Guy I'm not sure u understand the argument here, when Jesus said he coming with the clouds, it's got nothing to do with the Transfiguration.

When he says he coming with the clouds that definitely refers to his 2nd coming to judge the world. How do I know that? Cuz he is talking about the old testament son of Man prophecy , that's why the priest accused him of blasphemy.



Again the Transfiguration has nothing to do with the end of time prophecy. U still think that when Jesus say "come " it must refer to his second coming which is false, I gave u other examples where use "come " differently.




Again those passages have again has nothing to do with the Transfiguration, specifically on what Peter Said about it.

26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great (kingly) power and glory (majesty and splendor).

27 And then He will send out the angels and will gather together His elect (those He has picked out for Himself) from the four winds, from the farthest bounds of the earth to the farthest bounds of heaven.

28 Now learn a lesson from the fig tree: as soon as its branch becomes tender and it puts forth its leaves, you recognize andknow that summer is near.

29 So also, when you see these things happening, you may recognize and know that He is near, at [the very] door.

30 Surely I say to you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at that one time) positively will not perish or pass away before all these things take place.

31 Heaven and earth will perishand pass away, but My words will not perish or pass away.


Mark 13