As-Salam 'Alaikum,

There is an aspect of Sunni fiqh which Sunnis do not talk about often. In fact, some of them flare up when anyone mentions the topic. I am referring to the issue of adult breastfeeding here. It is a "sunnah" that Sunnis really need to revive, in order to make life easier, especially in this modern age. Often, the Sunni woman finds herself in the same small space with non-Mahram men (i.e. men to whom she is not related by blood or marriage). This is haram for her. But, she can easily overcome legal constraints inherent in these situations by breastfeeding each of those non-Mahram men. This is a hadith graded "sahih" from the English translation of Sunan Ibn Majah, vol. 3, p. 113, # 1943, which legitimizes that:

"It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "Sahlah bint Suhail came to the Prophet and said: 'O Messenger of Allah, I see signs of displeasure of Abu Hudhaifah when Salim enters upon me.' The Prophet said: 'Breastfeed him.' She said: 'How can I breastfeed him when he is a grown man?' The Messenger of Allah smiled and said: 'I know that he is a grown man.' So she did that, then she came to the Prophet and said: 'I have never seen any signs of displeasure on the face of Abu Hudhaifah after that. And he was present at (the Battle of Badr)." (Sahih)

In other words, Salim - a grown man - used to enter upon Sahlah bint Suhail, the wife of Abu Hudhaifah. Abu Hudhaifah used to see them together, and he used to be displeased with their presence together. This was most likely due to jealousy. so, Sahlah went to the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) to complain about this situation. Then, the Prophet gave her the solution. She only had to breastfeed Salim. She did that, and everyone became happy ever after.

Now, in case a Sunni woman seeks to revive this "sunnah," she has to note that she must do it in the proper manner before it can have the desired effect. An improper breastfeed is legally invalid, and therefore will need to be repeated. So, if you really want to achieve the best result, you have to do it in the correct manner. And, what is this correct manner? The adult man must have a full fill during the breastfeed. This is stated in another "sahih" hadith from the same English translation of Sunan Ibn Majah, vol. 3, p. 114, # 1945:

"It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Prophet entered upon her and there was a man with her. He said: "Who is this?" She said: "This is my brother." He said: "Look at whom you allow to enter upon you, because the breastfeeding (that makes a person Mahram) is that which satisfies hunger." (Sahih)

So, a few drops do not do the job at all. And, as the saying goes: whatever is worth doing at all is worth doing well.

# Curled from a website.

^Written by Abu Fatimah Muhammadiyah
......................................
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235036510-how-to-breastfeed-an-adult-a-full-fill/

Adapted from shiachat?

الحمد لله و الصلاة والسلام على رسول الله.

In reply to your post.

first

Your claim that the people of sunnah flare up or try to avoid this issue is a big and baseless lie!!! Many scholars of sunnah have discussed the matter explicitly in their books, I mean books you can get in common bookshops examples are muntaqal akhbaar and naylul awtaar (2950) and subulu salam (3/456) etc. So your ignorance is your personal disease, don't generalise it!

Second

You claim that it's a sunnah. This is a reckless usage of the term "sunnah", this your recklessness is either a result of your ignorance of the proper meaning and usage of terms or a sheer will to misguide others!
Rather it is a mere rukhsoh (permit).

third.

There is no doubt that breastfeeding the young makes him/her mahram. because Allah listed the women who can't be married (....YOUR FOSTER MOTHER WHO GAVE YOU SUCK....) (Nissa; 23)

And the basic ruling regarding Breastfeeding is that it is restricted to the baby. And the evidence for that is the hadith you quoted but didn't reference rather you misapplied it;

"It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Prophet entered upon her and there was a man with her. He said: "Who is this?" She said: "This is my brother." He said: "Look at whom you allow to enter upon you, because the breastfeeding (that makes a person Mahram) is that which satisfies hunger." (Bukharee;5102 and Muslim; 1455).

And what points to this also is that the Sahlah your first hadith complained to the Messenger alyhissolaat wassalaam, this implies that the companions (ridwanuLLaahi alyhim) knew basically that fostering is for the baby if not she wouldn't have come to complain.

Fourth
As for the hadith of sahlah then the scholars are divided into three regarding it's ruling, but before I mention them, I'll mention the hadith of sahlah in full ;

Abu Hudhayfah and his wife (sahlah) adopted Saalim (a freed slave of an ansaari woman) but when the verse {call them (adopted sons) by (the names of) their fathers: that is more just with Allah} (Ahzaab; 5) was revealed, the one (adopted son) whose father is known was attributed to his father, and the one who had no known father was attributed to his freer or called a 'brother in religion'.
Then when that happened sahlah came to the Messenger alyhissolaat wassalaam and you have the hadith (see subulu salam;3/456 and muntaqal akhbar;2950).

Then the scholars are divided regarding the application of the hadith into three opinions;
1) the hadith of sahlah is abrogated but this weak because you need date before you can affirm abrogation

2) the hadith of sahlah is a special ruling for her and Saalim. and this is the choice of Imam Ibn Baaz

3) That it is not specific to sahlah and Saalim rather it applies to anyone in such difficult situation as sahlah.

Ibn taymiyyah explained the difficult situation thus; the adult (man) can't do without entering the house of the woman for basic needs and it's difficult for her to observe hijab from him just like this case.

but sheikh Ibn Uthymeen said that it's not possible to find a condition equal to that of Saalim again because she already knew him before the verse was revealed. Therefore the matter returns to being specific to sahlah and Saalim.

Allah knows best.

Still on the issue of fostering, I'll give you some interesting "hadiths" from shia books. you will be surprised.

I know you don't read shia books -that is if you read at all - rather you busy yourself with searching for verses and narrations to distort i.e you only copy and paste crap.

hang on, I am comping

Still on the issue of fostering, I'll give you some interesting "hadiths" from shia books. you will be surprised.

I know you don't read shia books -that is if you read at all - rather you busy yourself with searching for verses and narrations to distort i.e you only copy and paste crap.

hang on, I am coming

Newnas:
.

In reply to your post.

first

Your claim that the people of sunnah flare up or try to avoid this issue is a big and baseless lie!!! Many scholars of sunnah have discussed the matter explicitly in their books, I mean books you can get in common bookshops examples are muntaqal akhbaar and naylul awtaar (2950) and subulu salam (3/456) etc. So your ignorance is your personal disease, don't generalise it!

@bold/underlined, OP is very clear in its statement when he says "In fact, SOME OF THEM flare up". "Some" is far different from "The people of sunnah".

EYESIGHT IS USELESS IF THE INSIGHT IS BLIND" ~Imam Ali (alayhi Salam).

Newnas:

Second

You claim that it's a sunnah. This is a reckless usage of the term "sunnah", this your recklessness is either a result of your ignorance of the proper meaning and usage of terms or a sheer will to misguide others!
Rather it is a mere rukhsoh (permit).

third.

First, the OP again is clear when the word sunnah is placed in "Sunnah". What does that mean in English? That is something you either don't agree with or its an exceptional. The bloodthirsty of abuse abuse abuse has actually blind your insight.

Second, is "the permit" not a "command"? Even many of your Wahabist Scholar recognized the ruling can be apply to every believer in that same situation. And there were reports that this Sunni "Sunnah" is being practiced in some countries.

Third, is a "permit" of the Prophet (in such circumstance) not part of his Sunnah? There are lots of rare cases you Nasibist tagged "an outright sunnah".

Newnas:

There is no doubt that breastfeeding the young makes him/her mahram. because Allah listed the women who can't be married (....YOUR FOSTER MOTHER WHO GAVE YOU SUCK....) (Nissa; 23)

And the basic ruling regarding Breastfeeding is that it is restricted to the baby. And the evidence for that is the hadith you quoted but didn't reference rather you misapplied it;

"It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Prophet entered upon her and there was a man with her. He said: "Who is this?" She said: "This is my brother." He said: "Look at whom you allow to enter upon you, because the breastfeeding (that makes a person Mahram) is that which satisfies hunger." (Bukharee;5102 and Muslim; 1455).

# Here we talk about "breastfeeding adult" not infant.

# As per Aisha hadith, it only gives info of the extent of feeding as regard "mahram or non-mahram. So, since you have another "special hadith" that allow "adult breastfeeding", obviously it (Aisha's hadith) answers the extent of "breastfeeding the adult" too. Same goes for infant. There is no misapplication here.

Newnas:


And what points to this also is that the Sahlah your first hadith complained to the Messenger alyhissolaat wassalaam, this implies that the companions (ridwanuLLaahi alyhim) knew basically that fostering is for the baby if not she wouldn't have come to complain.

First, bring out a sahih Sunni hadith that Sahlah ever breastfed the "grown man (their adopted son)" in his infancy.

That's why the so-called hadith is exceptional. Alas! The woman voiced out saying "a grown up man?" And the so-called hadith says prophet smiled and said "I know he's a grown up man".

#This puncture your arguments of "infant breastfeeding" because there is absolutely no conversation of "do you breastfed or how many times you breastfed" your adopted child in his infancy in the so-called hadith.

Newnas:

Fourth
As for the hadith of sahlah then the scholars are divided into three regarding it's ruling, but before I mention them, I'll mention the hadith of sahlah in full ;

Abu Hudhayfah and his wife (sahlah) adopted Saalim (a freed slave of an ansaari woman) but when the verse {call them (adopted sons) by (the names of) their fathers: that is more just with Allah} (Ahzaab; 5) was revealed, the one (adopted son) whose father is known was attributed to his father, and the one who had no known father was attributed to his freer or called a 'brother in religion'.
Then when that happened sahlah came to the Messenger alyhissolaat wassalaam and you have the hadith (see subulu salam;3/456 and muntaqal akhbar;2950).

Then the scholars are divided regarding the application of the hadith into three opinions;
1) the hadith of sahlah is abrogated but this weak because you need date before you can affirm abrogation

2) the hadith of sahlah is a special ruling for her and Saalim. and this is the choice of Imam Ibn Baaz

3) That it is not specific to sahlah and Saalim rather it applies to anyone in such difficult situation as sahlah.

Ibn taymiyyah explained the difficult situation thus; the adult (man) can't do without entering the house of the woman for basic needs and it's difficult for her to observe hijab from him just like this case.

[s]but sheikh Ibn Uthymeen said that it's not possible to find a condition equal to that of Saalim again because she already knew him before the verse was revealed. Therefore the matter returns to being specific to sahlah and Saalim[/s].

Allah knows best.

# Excellent. You have quoted the first position is weak so no point on that.

# We await the textual (Quranic or Hadith) evidence of those who propound the second position. Thank Allah that you clearly quoted that was Ibn Baz opinion.


Albani said it is not an exception for Salim, breastfeeding an ADULT is for all muslims (the hukm) and it is done DIRECLY, i.e. literally sucking the breast of a woman, and this is not SEXUAL (!!!) for that part of the breast is darkish ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xvqu...eature=related

^underlined part: Isn't that weird?!

Newnas:
Still on the issue of fostering, I'll give you some interesting "hadiths" from shia books. you will be surprised.

I know you don't read shia books -that is if you read at all - rather you busy yourself with searching for verses and narrations to distort i.e you only copy and paste crap.

hang on, I am comping

Waiting...but do me a favour. Make sure you quote Shi'i SAHIH AHADITH.

AlBaqir:


Waiting...but do me a favour. Make sure you quote Shi'i SAHIH AHADITH.

The hypocrite is try to create a backdoor for escape!

Don't worry, I will quote from your most reliable books!

Newnas:


[s]The hypocrite is try to create a backdoor for escape[/s]

Don't worry, I will quote from your most reliable books!

Chai! You have a very bad mouth. May Allah purify your thought to reflect good in your mouth.

Quoting from "reliable book" is not the point but proving whatever you quote to be Sahih is the big deal. You will be saddled with the huge responsibility of proving the Sanad and the matn in line with Shi'i Rijal.

As for your request for the evidence of those who share Imaam ibn Baaz's opinion, then I already stated an example in my previous texts but as you said and attributed -without sanad (chain of narration)- to Ali (rodiyaLLaahu anhu) that

EYESIGHT IS USELESS IF THE INSIGHT IS BLIND

EYESIGHT IS USELESS IF THE INSIGHT IS BLIND

Then my special gift to you i.e the weird shia narrations.

I'll give you just one because I'm feeling really lazy to type.

It was narrated in usoolul Kafee book of hujjah, chapter of the birth and death of the messenger (alyhissalam wassolaat)

when the Messenger alyhissolaat wassalaam was born, Abu Tolib put him (alyhissolaat wassalam) to his chest and breastfed the Messenger alyhissolaat wassalaam from his chest he met Haleemah sa'diyyah and handed him alyhissolaat wassalaam over to her.

Now as strange and confusing this narration is i.e a man breastfeeding a baby, but there is even a greater problem with it!

And, the implication of the above means that the Messenger has become Ali's foster brother and thus Ali has become Fatimoh foster uncle, so why did the Prophet alyhissolaat wassalaam get Ali married to Fatimoh (his foster niece according to this shia report) ?!

And Oh, another gift!

Do you know that it's a sunnah (according to your use of the term) for shia women to breastfeed goats (ewure)?!

Ahmad bn Muhammad bn Eesaa wrote to him (Abu AbdiLLaah);
a woman breastfeeds a female kid i.e baby goat(!!!) then it grew up and was serviced by a male, then gave birth, is it permissible to eat it's meat and milk?

he replied; a makrooh act but no problem with it (tahdheebul ahkaam shiiy
by toosiyy; 9)

then lastly
I invite you to read my thread, maybe you have seen it before but now this is a formal invitation.

https://www.nairaland.com/3015474/nail-shia-coffin-must-read

AlhamduliLlah who has made me finish this work.

<QUESTION>

Please clarify the following hadith.

A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudhaifa (signs of disgust) on entering of Salim (who is an ally) into (our house), whereupon Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Suckle him. She said: How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man? Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) smiled and said: I already know that he is a young man.
Was he suckled at the breast or form a cup?

<ANSWER>

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

Let us first look at the translation of the Hadith mentioned in the Sahih of Imam Muslim and elsewhere:

Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reports that Sahla bint Suhayl came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and said: “O Messenger of Allah! I see on the face of Abu Hudhayfa (signs of dislike) on the entering of Salim, who is an ally, (into our house). The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Suckle him.” She said: “How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man? The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) smiled and said: “I already know that he is a young man.” (Sahih Muslim, no: 1453)

Another version of this Hadith is as follows:

Sayyida A’isha (may Allah be pleased with her) reports that Salim, the freed-slave of Abu Hudhayfa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i.e. the daughter of Suhayl and wife of Abu Hudhayfa) came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and said: “Salim has attained (puberty) as men attain, and he has began to understand what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, think that Abu Hudhayfa feels uncomfortable with this. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to her: “Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the dislike) which Abu Hudhayfa feels in his heart will disappear.” She returned and said: “I have suckled him and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhayfa has disappeared.” (Sahih Muslim)

Before coming to any sort of conclusion, we need to first understand the background and context of this incident. Imam Abu al-Abbas al-Qurtubi (Allah have mercy on him) states in his commentary of Sahih Muslim:

“Salim (in this Hadith) is Salim ibn Ma’qal…Abu Hudhayfa had adopted him in accordance with the customs of the Arabs. He (Salim) had been brought up and raised by Abu Hudhayfa and his wife as their own son. When the verse of the Qur’an “Call them (your adopted children) by (the names of) their (real) fathers….”Surah al-Ahzab, V: 5) was revealed, the ruling of adopting children was abrogated (in that one can no longer consider an adopted son to be one’s own). However, Salim continued to reside and enter the house of Sahla (the wife of Abu Hudhayfa) as he was a minor. When he grew old and came close to puberty, both Abu Hudhayfa and Sahla disliked the idea of him entering freely upon Sahla, but they found it difficult to mention this to him, given the fact that he had lived with them (and was brought up by them), hence they asked the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) regarding this. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to Sahla: “Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the dislike) which Abu Hudhayfa feels in his heart will disappear” hence she suckled him and it so happened (i.e. the dislike of Abu Hudhayfa disappeared)…” (al-Mufhim lima Ashkal min talkhis Kitab Muslim, 4/186, Dar Ibn Kathir print)

The above clearly illustrates that Salim was adopted by Abu Hudhayfa and his wife Sahla. He had lived with them and was raised and brought up by them since childhood. However, Islam does not recognize legal adoption and a adopted child is not considered a real child, hence after reaching puberty, the rules of Hijab are applicable. It became very difficult for Salim to live with his adoptive mother due to this rule, thus the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) advised Sahla to make Salim drink her breast-milk, whereby the rules of Hijab would be lifted.

It is narrated in the Tabaqat of Ibn Sa’d and elsewhere that Sahla would pour her breast-milk into a utensil each day for five continuous days and Salim would drink from it. He did not directly drink from the breast of Sahla, as it is not permitted to expose one’s awra in front of a non-Mahram adult let alone have him suckled. Thus, the objection raised by some non-Muslims that this was an immoral act has no significance, for Sahla did not directly suckle Salim, as he had reached puberty. Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (Allah have mercy on him) has also mentioned this in his al-Isaba fi tamiz al-Sahaba. (See: Tabaqat Ibn Sa’d, 8/271 & al-Isaba, 4/337)

This leaves us with the question whether is it allowed for an adult to drink breast-milk, and what implications would that hold?

It is a well-known and recognised fact amongst the majority of the Muslim jurists (fuqaha) that suckling is not permitted after two (or 2 and a half) years, neither does it affect the rules of Hijab and marriage. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) quite clearly mentioned this in one Hadith where he said: “…suckling is only valid if it takes place in the suckling period.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 2504 & Sahih Muslim, no. 1455) The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) also said: “Suckling (radha’a) does not prohibit (i.e. marriage) except which penetrates the intestines (m: meaning which serves as a nourishment for the child) from the breasts, and it is prior to weaning.” (Recorded by Imam al-Tirmidhi in his Sunan, no. 1152)

Due to the above narrations, all four Sunni schools of Islamic law are in agreement that suckling and breastfeeding will only be considered (i.e. in effecting the rules of marriage and Hijab) if it takes place in the period designated for it, and it is of no significance after that period.

Thus, scholars mention that the permission given by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) for Sahla to give her milk to Salim was a special dispensation and an isolated case, and it cannot be generalized. Imam Abu al-Abbas al-Qurtubi (Allah have mercy on him) states that all of the Prophet’s wives with the exception of A’isha (Allah be pleased with them all) considered this to be a special dispensation, and this is the view taken by the majority of early (salaf) and late (khalaf) scholars. They considered the Hadith to be specific with Salim and Sahla, and are of the opinion that it is not permitted for an adult to drink breast-milk. If an adult did drink breast-milk, it will be of no consequence with regards to marriage and the rules of Hijab. (See: al-Mufhim, 4/186-187 & I’la al-Sunan, 11/119)

Moreover, Umm Salama, the wife of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) used to say: “All the wives of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) rejected the idea that one can come to them (without observing the rules of Hijab) with this type of breastfeeding (i.e. the suckling of an adult), hence they said to A’isha (Allah be pleased with her): “By Allah, we do not consider this but a dispensation given by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) for Salim. No one is to be allowed to enter (our houses) with this type of fosterage and we do not subscribe to this view.” (Sahih Muslim, no: 1454)

Thus, in conclusion, it is not permitted for an adult to intentionally drink breast-milk; neither will it have any bearing on the rules of Hijab and marriage. The companion Salim (Allah be pleased with him) was given a special dispensation by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) to drink the milk of Sahla, the wife of Abu Hudhayfa, due to the special circumstances of their case. However, Salim did not directly drink the milk from the breast of Sahla, rather, she would pour the milk in a utensil and he would drink from it.
And Allah knows best

[Mufti] Muhammad ibn Adam
Darul Iftaa
Leicester , UK

http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/6030?txt_QuestionID

sino:
<QUESTION>

It is narrated in the Tabaqat of Ibn Sa’d and elsewhere that Sahla would pour her breast-milk into a utensil each day for five continuous days and Salim would drink from it. He did not directly drink from the breast of Sahla, as it is not permitted to expose one’s awra in front of a non-Mahram adult let alone have him suckled. Thus, the objection raised by some non-Muslims that this was an immoral act has no significance, for Sahla did not directly suckle Salim, as he had reached puberty. Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (Allah have mercy on him) has also mentioned this in his al-Isaba fi tamiz al-Sahaba. (See: Tabaqat Ibn Sa’d, 8/271 & al-Isaba, 4/337)

That narration from al-Tabaqat is a fabrication, or at least very weak. There is al-Waqidi in its sanad, and he is da'if, in fact matruk (rejected) according to Imam Muslim and others. There are those who have accused him of telling lies, also. You cannot possibly use a narration like that to interpret a "sahih" report. Besides, the Arabic term used in the hadith (translated as "breastfeed" above) literally means to suck breast-milk directly from the breast. The Salafi cleric, Shaykh Muhammad 'Awdah al-Salman confirms this:

الرضاع : لغة : بفتح الراء وكسرهًا وإثبات التاء اسم لمص الثدي وشرب لبنه .

If you are going to give a secondary meaning to that word, you surely need more than the da'if - perhaps fabricated - report of al-Waqidi.

Meanwhile, it seems that you are not bothered at all by the possibility of a "stranger" drinking the breast-milk of another man's wife. That looks strange, if you asked me.

AlBaqir:


That narration from al-Tabaqat is a fabrication, or at least very weak. There is al-Waqidi in its sanad, and he is da'if, in fact matruk (rejected) according to Imam Muslim and others. There are those who have accused him of telling lies, also. You cannot possibly use a narration like that to interpret a "sahih" report. Besides, the Arabic term used in the hadith (translated as "breastfeed" above) literally means to suck breast-milk directly from the breast. The Salafi cleric, Shaykh Muhammad 'Awdah al-Salman confirms this:

الرضاع : لغة : بفتح الراء وكسرهًا وإثبات التاء اسم لمص الثدي وشرب لبنه .

If you are going to give a secondary meaning to that word, you surely need more than the da'if - perhaps fabricated - report of al-Waqidi.

Meanwhile, it seems that you are not bothered at all by the possibility of a "stranger" drinking the breast-milk of another man's wife. That looks strange, if you asked me.

REFERENCE!!!

Newnas:



REFERENCE!!!

Check this link:
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?ID=1615&bk_no=60&flag=1

AlBaqir:


That narration from al-Tabaqat is a fabrication, or at least very weak. There is al-Waqidi in its sanad, and he is da'if, in fact matruk (rejected) according to Imam Muslim and others. There are those who have accused him of telling lies, also. You cannot possibly use a narration like that to interpret a "sahih" report. Besides, the Arabic term used in the hadith (translated as "breastfeed" above) literally means to suck breast-milk directly from the breast. The Salafi cleric, Shaykh Muhammad 'Awdah al-Salman confirms this:

الرضاع : لغة : بفتح الراء وكسرهًا وإثبات التاء اسم لمص الثدي وشرب لبنه .

If you are going to give a secondary meaning to that word, you surely need more than the da'if - perhaps fabricated - report of al-Waqidi.

Meanwhile, it seems that you are not bothered at all by the possibility of a "stranger" drinking the breast-milk of another man's wife. That looks strange, if you asked me.

There is no adult breastfeeding in Islam

Many Christian missionaries use a report from Sahih Muslim to argue that Islam allows adult breastfeeding. They try to seek for different arguments that kill their contentions. Let me respond to each of their arguments.

The Hadith:

There are quite a few narrations on this in Sahih Muslim and other collections. I quote one of them here;
'A'isha -Allah be pleased with her-reported that Sahla bint Suhail b. 'Amr came to Allah's Messenger –may Allah bless him- and said: Messenger of Allah, Salim (the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa) is living with us in our house, and he has attained (puberty) as men attain it and has acquired knowledge (of the sex problems) as men acquire, whereupon he said: Feed him (i.e. make him drink your milk) so that he may become unlawful (in regard to marriage) (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2636)

Another narration says the Prophet –may Allah bless him- said: “Feed him, and it would remove what is there (expression of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa. She said: (I did that) and, by Allah, I did not see (any sign of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa.” (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2638)

Same is reported in other Hadith works too including Muwatta of Malik, Hadith 1113.

There was no physical contact:

The first thing that must be clarified is that there was no physical contact between Sahla bin Suhail and Salim –may Allah be pleased with them both.

Meaning of the Arabic word أَرْضِعِيهِ:

The Hadith actually uses the word أَرْضِعِيهِ to show what the Prophet –may Allah bless him- asked Sahla to do. The word is a derivative of رضاع (Radhha) and it does not basically meaning suckling i.e. drinking from the breasts.

In Arabic it is perfectly valid to say, as it appears in classical Arabic lexicographic work Tajul ‘Uroos (1/7848) and is often used otherwise too;
رضع (من) ثدي أمه

“He did Raddha (from the) breasts of his mother.”

So the basic, original meaning of Raddha cannot be “suckling” but it has to be “feeding.” Had it been “suckling” there was no need to add “from the breasts …” The real meaning is “feeding” and the context or explicit information alone can clarify if it means, “suckling” i.e. “feeding from the breasts” or it was some other way.

Categorical Narration:

While the context does not say anything explicitly, we have to look for the answer elsewhere.

Qadhi Ayyaz said: “It is possible that she (Sahla) poured (her milk) and then he (Salim) drank it without having to touch her breast.” al-Nawawi said, “It is a fair possibility.” (Fath al-Bari 14/346)

Infact one narration gives us the explicit answer. We read;

Muhammad bin 'Umar (al-Waqidi) told us: Muhammad bin 'Abdullah, al-Zuhri's nephew, told us on authority of his father that he said, “An amount of a drink milk was collected in a pot or a glass, and Salim used to drink it every day, for five days. After this, he used to enter upon her while her head was uncovered. This was permission from Messenger of Allah to Sahla bint Suhail." (Ibn Sa’d’s Tabaqat al-Kubra 8/271 Quoted by Ibn Hajr in al-Isabah 4/11)

What they mention as a problem with this report is not a problem even though one of the narrators is al-Waqidi.[1]

It was a special case:

Except ‘Aisha –may Allah be pleased with her- all the Wives of the Holy Prophet –may Allah be pleased with them all- maintained that it was a special case and that the same cannot be extended to anyone else.

Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Messenger -may Allah bless- used to say that all wives of Allah's Messenger -may Allah bless- disclaimed the idea that one with this type of fosterage (having been suckled after the proper period) should come to them. and said to 'A'isha: By Allah, we do not find this but a sort of concession given by Allah's Messenger -may Allah bless- only for Salim, and no one was going to be allowed to enter (our houses) with this type of fosterage and we do not subscribe to this view. (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2641)

This is so because the general principle goes as;

“Foster relationship is established only when milk is the only food of the child." (Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 4712. Narrated ‘Aisha from the Prophet –may Allah bless them both)

Al-Nawawi writes: “And all the scholars from amongst the Companions and the Successors and scholars of all regions to this day have said, ‘Foster relation is not proved if it after two years.’” (Sharah al-Nawawi 5/182)

This is agreed upon opinion. Those who are said to have differed also include Abu Hanifa and Malik –may Allah have mercy on them both- but even they did not hold that someone reaching puberty can be suckled, they only added few months to the period just after the two years.
So among the companions the opinion of ‘Aisha –may Allah be pleased with her- is weak as the rest of the Companions, including the other Wives of the Prophet –may Allah be pleased with them all- disagreed with her and held that it was a special relaxation for Salim. The rationale of this special permission is discussed below.

And among the later scholars, it was rare to find one allowing it, while the overwhelming majority of the scholars held the same opinion as the majority of the companions did.

The context, explaining why it must be a special case:

Now let us dig a little more and try to find out what leads us to believe that it was a special case and should not be extended to any other people.

In Malik’s Muwatta, Hadith 1113 we read the background;

“Abu Hudhaifa ibn Utba ibn Rabia, one of the companions of the Messenger of Allah -may Allah bless him and grant him peace- who was present at Badr, adopted Salim -who is called Salim, the mawla of Abu Hudhaifa- as the Messenger of Allah -may Allah bless him and grant him peace- adopted Zayd ibn Haritha. He thought of him as his son, … When Allah the Exalted sent down in His Book what He sent down about Zayd ibn Haritha, 'Call them after their true fathers. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah. If you do not know who their fathers were then they are your brothers in the deen and your mawali,' (Sura 33 Ayah 5) people in this position were traced back to their fathers. When the father was not known, they were traced to their mawla. Sahla bint Suhayl who was the wife of Abu Hudhaifa, and one of the tribe of Amr ibn Luayy, came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said, 'Messenger of Allah! We think of Salim as a son and he comes in to see me while I am uncovered. We only have one room, so what do you think about the situation?' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Give him five drinks of your milk and he will be mahram by it.' She then saw him as a foster son.” (Muwatta of Malik, Hadith 1113)

This clarifies the whole thing. Salim was adopted by Hudhaifa and both he and his wife considered Salim as their son. His case was very much
like Zaid bin Harith except that the wife of the Prophet –may Allah bless him, Khadijah –may Allah be pleased with her- in whose presence Zaid was adopted had died long before the revelation of Surah Ahzab (which includes instructions on veil). And further that Zaid’s lineage was known but that of Salim was not (Tabaqat al-Kubra 3/87)

Now when Surah Ahzab was revealed, two issues came up. Verse 5 ordered the adopted sons to be known with reference to their own biological fathers and in case it was unknown they were to be considered brothers in faith and “mawali.” And in verse 59 were revealed the instructions on Hijab for women.

In light of the instruction in verse 5, Salim was referred to as “Mawla Abu Hudhaifa” and that is the reason everywhere we find his mention like this only. And the verse on Hijab brought the other issue of him visiting Sahla, so to say his adoptive mother. Sahla –may Allah be pleased with her- brought the case to the Holy Prophet –may Allah bless him- and he considering the fact Salim was to Sahla like her own son, he told them a way out of the situation.

However, now that rulings about adoption and Hijab are already in place, such a practice cannot be repeated. If the adopted one is an infant and can be fostered before he reaches his second birthday, then he will become a foster child without involving any controversy. And if he is older, then right from the start Hijab factor must be considered in the light of the general injunctions and etiquettes of Islamic Law and civilization.

Abu Hudhaifa’s disgust:

The Hadith narrations say, Abu Hudhaifa was disgusted (Muslim, 2638) with Salim visiting Sahla –may Allah be pleased with them all- like before. This happened as Salim reached puberty (Muslim, 2636) and verses of Surah Ahzab were revealed (Muwatta, 1113). But Muwatta’s narration also says they considered him as their son. So apparently the disgust on Abu Hudhaifa’s face was due to something basically unlawful happening and not due to any other concern. And that is why when practically an out of way solution was suggested and put into practice the disgust on his face disappeared. It also hints that there was no physical contact for Abu Hudhaifa who had disliked Salim visiting Sahla would have not been satisfied had there been a direct physical contact during feeding. And of course it is wrong to suggest that Prophet –may Allah bless him- would have allowed physical contact. He prescribed the out of way solution because on the emotional level the relation between Salim and Sahla –may Allah be pleased with them both- was indeed pure and innocent as testified by Sahla (Muwatta, 1113) and because of the adoption to have taken place during the transitionary period they were given a special consideration and an exception.

Summary and Conclusion:

Salim, the freed-slave of Abu Hudhaifa –may Allah be pleased with them both- was an adopted son of Abu Hudhaifa. Both Abu Hudhaifa and his wife, Sahla treated Salim like their son. And Salim used to walk up to his adoptive mother and when instruction on Hijab was revealed Abu Hudhaifa felt bad about Salim coming to Sahla when she was not observing full Hijab at home. So the Prophet –may Allah bless him- gave them a special relaxation considering the details of their case. And when they actually followed the instruction, there was no physical contact. The milk was drawn in a cup and Salim drank it.

And but now when all the instructions on adoption and Hijab are well in place, such a relaxation cannot be sought. This is the well established opinion of all but one of the Companions, the four established schools of Islamic jurisprudence and nearly all of the top scholars from the earliest generations.
Indeed Allah knows the best!
________________________________________
[1] Status of al-Waqidi’s narrations

[b]Muhammad bin ‘Umar al-Waqidi (d. 207 A.H.) is one of the few narrators on whose reliability classical Muslim scholars had much difference of opinion. While he has been criticized by many, there are others who have graded him as reliable. On one hand some have called him a liar; on the other hand some have greatly admired him. Al-Darawurdi even went to extent of calling him “Leader of the Faithful in Hadith” (See Tahzib al-Kamal and Sayr Alam al-Nubala)

This leaves students like us in a very difficult position to decide about him. However some later classical scholars like Ibn Hajr, al-Dhahbi and Ibn Kathir have considered all the earlier opinions carefully and made a reasonable trade-off between the varying opinions without going to either extreme. Here I quote a few sayings from them.

Al-Dhahbi (d. 748 A.H.) writes: “He collected, hoarded and mixed the butter with the fats and pebbles with the pearls, so they have ignored him for this reason but in spite of this, he cannot be ruled out in the narrations on "Maghazi" (i.e. wars) and the lives of the Companions and reports about them.” (Sayr A’lam al-Nubala 9/454-455)

Ibn Hajr (d. 852 A.H.) said: “And al-Waqidi, when he does not contradict the authentic reports or the others from the narrators of “maghazi” (i.e. wars), is acceptable in “Maghazi to our fellows. And Allah knows best!” (Talkhis al-Habir 3/324)

And before him Ibn Kathir (d. 774 A.H.) said: “al-Waqidi, he has reliable additions, and well document history. He is from the great leaders of this field. And he is trustworthy in himself, excessively reporting as I have deliberated at length about his reliability and criticism on him in my book titled ‘al-Takmil fi Ma’rifah al-Thiqat wal Dhu’afa wal Majahil.’” (al-Bidayah wal Nihayah 3/288)

Unfortunately the book he mentioned is not readily available, in fact has not been published yet. I have learnt about its manuscript version. In-sha-Allah I’ll try to dig it out and share the details about al-Waqidi from it.

All these quotes put together conveniently lead us to conclude that narrations from al-Waqidi are acceptable if they do not contradict absolutely authentic reports and if they are about the times of Sahaba and especially if they only add small little information to independently known facts. This is well known to those who have studied the works of Hafiz Ibn Hajr.

And as the above stated conditions are all true for the report under consideration, therefore there is no problem in accepting the narration as reliable. And Allah knows the best! [/b]

Source:http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/06/there-is-no-adult-breastfeeding-in.html

^@ Sino, from your (another) submission above although its a repetition of the former, following are rebuttal:

# To say the word (أَرْضِعِيهِ )does not literally mean "to suckle directly from the breast, to breastfeed" is a deception to hide the truth. One then wonder why the sahabiyah, Sahla was shocked and said to the Prophet, "but he's a grown man", when Prophet asked her to "breastfed" the man.

QURAN USES THE WORD
What does that word mean in the following Qur'anic verses:

"Mothers should breastfeed (يُرْضِعْنَ ) their children two full years, provided they want to complete the nursing" (2:233)

"We inspired Moses' mother saying, "Breastfeed (أَرْضِعِيهِ ) your son. When you become afraid for his life, throw him into the sea. Do not be afraid or grieved for We shall return him to you and make him a Messenger." (28:7)

SUNNI FATAWA ON THE WORD
Shaykh al-Jaziri, the well-known Sunni jurist who wrote "Islamic Jurisprudence According to the Four Sunni Schools"[https://archive.org/download/IslamicJurisprudenceAccordingToTheFourSunniSchoolsAlFiqhalaAlMadhahibAlArbaah/IslamicJurisprudenceAccordingToTheFourSunniSchoolsAlFiqhalaAlMadhahibAlArbaah.pdf], in the same book, also defines the literal meaning of the word as "to suck the breast":

الرضاع - بفتح الراء وكسرها - ويقال : رضاعة - بفتح الراء وكسرها - أيضا معناه في اللغة أنه اسم لمص الثدي .

This Salafi fatwa [http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=101279] has used "both words" together, and they refer to breastfeeding in its literal sense, as explained above:

للزوج أن يستمتع بزوجته بما يشاء ، ولم يحرم عليه إلا الإيلاج في الدبر ، والجماع في الحيض والنفاس ، وما عدا ذلك فله أن يستمتع بزوجته بما يشاء كالتقبيل والمس والنظر وغير ذلك .
وحتى لو رضع من ثديها ، فهو داخل في الاستمتاع المباح ، ولا يقال بتأثير اللبن عليه ؛ لأن رضاع الكبير غير مؤثر في التحريم ، وإنما الرضاع المؤثر هو ما كان في الحولين .

Also, this is another fatwa [http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=312] cited on the same Salafi forum:

Yet this is was Allamah Al-Albani says:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115gFzpaVx0

beginning form min: 3:40

1. He says the Hukm was not PARTICULLARY for Salim it is for every Muslim. There is no DALIL he says to restrict it to Salim r.a. This is also the opinion of Ibn Taymiyyah r.h. I thought this was only Aishas r.a. opinion?!

2. He says his personal opinion is that an adult can be brestfeed by a nonmahram woman.

3. He even says that there is no objection [size=27pt]to suckle DIRECTLY from the nipples of the breast[/size] for this isn't shahwati (sexual)

How it isn't sexual besides how can a grown man suck DIRECTLY from the nipples of a non mahram?

ABOUT AL-WAQIDI
# In short, even from your post, there is no unanimous decision about al-Waqidi. Those few who seem to embrace him only does in his reports on wars. Obviously you can NEVER use this kind of personality in a Sanad to fill in the gap of a Sahih hadith. Try again later. Its a buried case.

AlBaqir:
^@ Sino, from your (another) submission above although its a repetition of the former, following are rebuttal:

# To say the word (أَرْضِعِيهِ )does not literally mean "to suckle directly from the breast, to breastfeed" is a deception to hide the truth. One then wonder why the sahabiyah, Sahla was shocked and said to the Prophet, "but he's a grown man", when Prophet asked her to "breastfed" the man.

QURAN USES THE WORD
What does that word mean in the following Qur'anic verses:

"Mothers should breastfeed (يُرْضِعْنَ ) their children two full years, provided they want to complete the nursing" (2:233)

"We inspired Moses' mother saying, "Breastfeed (أَرْضِعِيهِ ) your son. When you become afraid for his life, throw him into the sea. Do not be afraid or grieved for We shall return him to you and make him a Messenger." (28:7)

SUNNI FATAWA ON THE WORD
Shaykh al-Jaziri, the well-known Sunni jurist who wrote "Islamic Jurisprudence According to the Four Sunni Schools"[https://archive.org/download/IslamicJurisprudenceAccordingToTheFourSunniSchoolsAlFiqhalaAlMadhahibAlArbaah/IslamicJurisprudenceAccordingToTheFourSunniSchoolsAlFiqhalaAlMadhahibAlArbaah.pdf], in the same book, also defines the literal meaning of the word as "to suck the breast":

الرضاع - بفتح الراء وكسرها - ويقال : رضاعة - بفتح الراء وكسرها - أيضا معناه في اللغة أنه اسم لمص الثدي .

This Salafi fatwa [http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=101279] has used "both words" together, and they refer to breastfeeding in its literal sense, as explained above:

للزوج أن يستمتع بزوجته بما يشاء ، ولم يحرم عليه إلا الإيلاج في الدبر ، والجماع في الحيض والنفاس ، وما عدا ذلك فله أن يستمتع بزوجته بما يشاء كالتقبيل والمس والنظر وغير ذلك .
وحتى لو رضع من ثديها ، فهو داخل في الاستمتاع المباح ، ولا يقال بتأثير اللبن عليه ؛ لأن رضاع الكبير غير مؤثر في التحريم ، وإنما الرضاع المؤثر هو ما كان في الحولين .

Also, this is another fatwa [http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=312] cited on the same Salafi forum:

Yet this is was Allamah Al-Albani says:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115gFzpaVx0

beginning form min: 3:40

1. He says the Hukm was not PARTICULLARY for Salim it is for every Muslim. There is no DALIL he says to restrict it to Salim r.a. This is also the opinion of Ibn Taymiyyah r.h. I thought this was only Aishas r.a. opinion?!

2. He says his personal opinion is that an adult can be brestfeed by a nonmahram woman.

3. He even says that there is no objection [size=27pt]to suckle DIRECTLY from the nipples of the breast[/size] for this isn't shahwati (sexual)

How it isn't sexual besides how can a grown man suck DIRECTLY from the nipples of a non mahram?

ABOUT AL-WAQIDI
# In short, even from your post, there is no unanimous decision about al-Waqidi. Those few who seem to embrace him only does in his reports on wars. Obviously you can NEVER use this kind of personality in a Sanad to fill in the gap of a Sahih hadith. Try again later. Its a buried case.

You know if this was coming from non Muslims, I would understand their deficiency…

I do not understand what you are trying to proof, your arguments are very weak, and the two articles I posted had already clarified issues any sincere Muslim may have with this narration.

Quoting Sheikh Al-Bany does not help your case whatsoever, we do not have "infallibles", we accord respect and work with facts and the truth not assumptions and negative suspicions.

First and foremost, it is quite unfortunate, that due to wanting to proof a perverse opinion, you forgot all about what Islam teaches, this kind of attitude is common with you and your ilk, especially when you try to defame/denigrate the companions of the Prophet (SAW) (well you claim some not all). I had advised you in regards to this, but it seems such teachings are not an important aspect in shi’ism

Why am I writing all the above? Well it is simple, when you read a narration that is authentic, attributed to the Prophet (SAW), and can have a negative interpretation, as a sincere Muslim, what are you supposed to do?! What a sincere Muslim would do or say is to deny the negative interpretation, as such can never be attributed to him (SAW). So there is a problem with whomever holds on to such negative interpretation, either the person is mistaken, ignorant, deficient in Iman or a hypocrite.

On the meaning of the word rad’ah, perhaps I should try to explain to you what the author was driving at. For example, in Yoruba language, when you tell a nursing mother “fun omo yi ni oyan” meaning (literally) “give this child breast” but would rather be translated as “breastfeed this child” The intended meaning of the sentence in Yoruba is basically feeding, i.e feed this child with breast milk. The child has no use of the breast except for its content, thus the content can be transferred into a container and given to the child. Mothers of today do so, they put their breast milk in bottles and feed their babies, if you ask them, are you breastfeeding your child, they would answer you with in the affirmative.

As I had hinted earlier, even without the narration of Waqidi, one would have to think of the best case scenario, which can only be that there was no contact between Salim and his adopted mother. Why should we do this? Since we know that Islam states that all part of a woman is awrah (unclothedness), except for what is obvious, and the issue being discussed in this narration has to do with awrah of Sahlah and status of Salim (may Allah have mercy on them), then it would make no sense to believe that Salim was suckled by Sahlah (ra) directly, for that would negate the established prohibition in regards her awrah. This was why scholars like An-Nawawi would suggest that it wasn’t a case of direct contact (see the article).

Again it is well established that this case is a special one, and thus cannot be generalized, so any scholar who brings contrary opinion, based on his ijtihad might be mistaken, it is as simple as that. So you cannot quote one or two scholars, when we have on reliable authority, that the wives of the Prophet (SAW) (may Allah have mercy on them all), the Sahabahs, the scholars within the Salafs and the Khalafs, the four school of thoughts, the majority of scholars of our time, hold on to the fact that fosterage can only be established when the breastfeeding is done within 2 years of birth.

And your point on Waqidi holds no water, it is not only maghazi, but the lifes of the sahabas too, he is deemed reliable with conditions, the narration in question do not negate these conditions, thus the narration can be used to further explain the hadith of Salim and his foster mother.

Al-Waqidi’s reliability in Maghazi and Siyar

Early scholars of Islam themselves have maintained a difference between the literature of hadith and history. For instance, those who collected materials concerning the person of the Prophet (siyar) in relation to the legal obligations (al-Ahkam al-Shari’yah) were called “MUhaddithin” (Traditionalists); those who concerned themselves only with the life of the Prophet were known as “Ashab al-Sirah”; those who wrote about the character and habits of the Prophet were called “Ashab al-Shama’il”. And those who concerned themselves with the campaigns of the Prophet were known as the Ashab al-Maghazi.

On the basis of above categorization the same “Ashab al-Rijal” who, have rejected al-Waqidi in Hadith and in discussions on important religious obligations, have at the same time acknowledged his knowledge of the Maghazi and have specified his fact in their criticisms. For instance, the same al-Dhahbi who, at the end of his criticism on al-Waqidi in his Mizan has concluded: “Consensus has taken place on the weakness of al-Waqidi,” has specified in his “Tadhkirat al-Huffaz” that:

He is one of the vessels of knowledge but he is not well-versed in Hadith. But he is an expert (on the top) in Maghazi and Siyar.

Ahmad al-Khazarji writes:
He was a scholar of Maghazi, Siyar, conquests and of difference among the people.

Ibn Hajr himself who, has severely criticized al-Waqidi in his “Tahdhib al-Tahdhib” and “Taqrib al-Tahdhib”, has quoted him extensively in explaining the various events of the battles (ghazawat) and other historical events in his Fath al-Bari, the commentary to Sahih al-Bukhari.

al-Shafi’i has called al-Waqidi a “liar” (kadhab) but at the same time in his monumental work, Kitab al-‘Umm, he has based his inferences on the strength of al-Waqidi’s reports on the Ghazawat.

Source: http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/01/muhammad-ibn-umar-waqidi-narrator.html#more

The above was my initial response to your last post when I didn’t listen to the youtube video of the recording of Sheikh Albany, Alhamdulilah I just finished listening to it hence this reply. I put it to you that you didn’t listen to the Sheikh, or you don’t understand Arabic.

First, the Sheikh stated clearly that the majority of the scholars of Fiqh (Jum’ur) were of the opinion that the issue of Salim is a special one, only few (Including Sheikh Ibn Taymiyah) had the opinion that it wasn’t a special case but rather general, following the Ijtihad of Aisha (RA) as well as applying principles of Shari’ah.

Secondly, maybe you didn’t post where you got the allegation that the Sheikh said “He even says that there is no objection to suckle DIRECTLY from the Tips of the breast for this isn't shahwati (sexual)” please tell me the time let me listen again, or bring another proof for the bold. What I heard was stating that the milk getting into the stomach, no mention of suckling from the tips, or sexuality.

Thirdly, from the beginning, the Sheikh clearly stated the unanimous position in regards relation through fostering, quoting hadith of the year being 2 years. Now go and listen well, He said, when he was about to raise the issue of Salim (RA), that it is a long standing issue, “is it a special case or can be allowed for SIMILAR cases?” in which he later stated that the wives of the Peophet (SAW) had differences….One needs to understand the background of Salim case to know the usefulness of using SIMILAR by Sheikh Al-Bany (go and read the two articles again).

Reading the forgoing, I can’t help but wonder how you arrived at what you posted…it baffles me such mindset you guys operate, it is just grotesque!

sino:


The above was my initial response to your last post when I didn’t listen to the youtube video of the recording of Sheikh Albany, Alhamdulilah I just finished listening to it hence this reply. I put it to you that you didn’t listen to the Sheikh, or you don’t understand Arabic.

First, the Sheikh stated clearly that the majority of the scholars of Fiqh (Jum’ur) were of the opinion that the issue of Salim is a special one, only few (Including Sheikh Ibn Taymiyah) had the opinion that it wasn’t a special case but rather general, following the Ijtihad of Aisha (RA) as well as applying principles of Shari’ah.

Secondly, maybe you didn’t post where you got the allegation that the Sheikh said “He even says that there is no objection to suckle DIRECTLY from the Tips of the breast for this isn't shahwati (sexual)” please tell me the time let me listen again, or bring another proof for the bold. What I heard was stating that the milk getting into the stomach, no mention of suckling from the tips, or sexuality.

Thirdly, from the beginning, the Sheikh clearly stated the unanimous position in regards relation through fostering, quoting hadith of the year being 2 years. Now go and listen well, He said, when he was about to raise the issue of Salim (RA), that it is a long standing issue, “is it a special case or can be allowed for SIMILAR cases?” in which he later stated that the wives of the Peophet (SAW) had differences….One needs to understand the background of Salim case to know the usefulness of using SIMILAR by Sheikh Al-Bany (go and read the two articles again).

Reading the forgoing, I can’t help but wonder how you arrived at what you posted…it baffles me such mindset you guys operate, it is just grotesque!

Then, this is added:

CORRECTION! wrong video!

here the correct reference:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XvqumBKSN0&feature=related

beginning form min: 4:50

very disturbing Insha Allah I got it wrong our my mafhoum is wrong.

Note this submission also:

ALSO before Imam Al ALbani r.h. you can see shaikh huweini who completely refutes what brother Abdulwahhab and others said to me. he says the matn is the proof that she gave him her breast not in a cup (hadith with a cup are ALL weak).

The poster reiterates again:

keep in mind imam alalbani r.h (as far as I understood) said there is no sexual desire ANYWAY by sucking at the tits of a non mahram GROWN woman thus its absolutely fine!

This is very disturbing to me and where shall I clarify this if not with muslims brothers who have knowledge?

Then, in case you are unable to watch the video, a rough translated narration (apparently interpolated with the translator's exclamations) is provided in that thread:

5:15

he basically says:"A woman i.e. the Sahabiyah (apparenly) behind her Hijaab, passing a cup of her breastmilk to Salim (RA), if this was the case, i.e. if this is what she understand (as some people today understand and try to claim she gave him mild in a cup!) WHY WAS SHE SHOCKED when Rasulullah (SAWS) said:"BREAST FEED HIM"! She definately understood that she shall literally give him (Salim) her breast.

For according to:

-The arabic language
-according to the shari3a
-and customs

irdha3 means LITERALLY to breast feed someone, it can NEVER BE UNDERSTOOD as drinking breast feed in a cup etc. NEVER!

Then the shaikh said that the sahabiyyah gave the GROWN MAN SALIM who is BEARDED five times her breast (5 RADH3AT)!

Now this makes all no sense at all wallahu a3lam. For Abu Hudhayfa her husband was jeleous for the boy who grown up in her house and who was not their son i.e. Salim was a GROWN man now. The Sahabiya explains her problem to the Prophet (SAWS), and he says BREAST FEED HIM. She gets shocked because ridha3 means LITERALLY breast feeding, nothing else. All Ahadith about him drinking from a cup are not just not authentic, they are actually against the arabic, shar3i and 3urfi meaning of "ridha3" for drinking from a cup is not considered ridha3 as simple as that. Now this is so confusing and makes no sense, for Abu Hudhaifa is obviously jeleous in the first place, for a grown, BEARDED man his entering his house on daily basis, so how would he accept this grown man being BREAST FEEDED (LITERALLY) by his wife!!!!!!!!!

5:57:

Shaikh said it is not an exception for Salim, breast feeding an ADULT is for all muslims (the hukm) and it is done DIRECLY, i.e. literally sucking the breast of a woman, and this is not SEXUAL (!!!) for that part of the breast is darkish ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XvqumBKSN0&feature=related

It is my guess that you have learnt one or two things from the fatwas of al-Albani and al-Huwayni.

Meanwhile, I did raise an issue which you, again, ignore. Is the breast-milk of a man's wife halal to another man?

^^^Chairman, the audio of the sheikh has been tampered with; two different audios were merged, I can’t comment on such distortion, for I don’t know what the Sheikh was responding to or what he was trying to explain. Now I would like to get clarification, is this about Sheikh Al-Bani or about the narration? If it is about the narration, then it has been completely clarified. If you want to discuss Sheikh Al-Bani, then bring a clear proof of his audio to prove your allegations. By the way, I did not see any difference of Sheikh Al-Huwayni’s statement; he also made it clear that there are 2 views in regards to the narration in question, one being specific for Salim, and the other view stating that it is general.

On your question, I do not know, there is no verse of the Qur’an that states it is haram, nor any narration, to the best of my knowledge that states so. The Scholars of Fiqh would be the best people to direct your question to.

Newnas:
الحمد لله و الصلاة والسلام على رسول الله.

In reply to your post.

first

Your claim that the people of sunnah flare up or try to avoid this issue is a big and baseless lie!!! Many scholars of sunnah have discussed the matter explicitly in their books, I mean books you can get in common bookshops examples are muntaqal akhbaar and naylul awtaar (2950) and subulu salam (3/456) etc. So your ignorance is your personal disease, don't generalise it!

Second

You claim that it's a sunnah. This is a reckless usage of the term "sunnah", this your recklessness is either a result of your ignorance of the proper meaning and usage of terms or a sheer will to misguide others!
Rather it is a mere rukhsoh (permit).

third.

There is no doubt that breastfeeding the young makes him/her mahram. because Allah listed the women who can't be married (....YOUR FOSTER MOTHER WHO GAVE YOU SUCK....) (Nissa; 23)

And the basic ruling regarding Breastfeeding is that it is restricted to the baby. And the evidence for that is the hadith you quoted but didn't reference rather you misapplied it;

"It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Prophet entered upon her and there was a man with her. He said: "Who is this?" She said: "This is my brother." He said: "Look at whom you allow to enter upon you, because the breastfeeding (that makes a person Mahram) is that which satisfies hunger." (Bukharee;5102 and Muslim; 1455).

And what points to this also is that the Sahlah your first hadith complained to the Messenger alyhissolaat wassalaam, this implies that the companions (ridwanuLLaahi alyhim) knew basically that fostering is for the baby if not she wouldn't have come to complain.

Fourth
As for the hadith of sahlah then the scholars are divided into three regarding it's ruling, but before I mention them, I'll mention the hadith of sahlah in full ;

Abu Hudhayfah and his wife (sahlah) adopted Saalim (a freed slave of an ansaari woman) but when the verse {call them (adopted sons) by (the names of) their fathers: that is more just with Allah} (Ahzaab; 5) was revealed, the one (adopted son) whose father is known was attributed to his father, and the one who had no known father was attributed to his freer or called a 'brother in religion'.
Then when that happened sahlah came to the Messenger alyhissolaat wassalaam and you have the hadith (see subulu salam;3/456 and muntaqal akhbar;2950).

Then the scholars are divided regarding the application of the hadith into three opinions;
1) the hadith of sahlah is abrogated but this weak because you need date before you can affirm abrogation

2) the hadith of sahlah is a special ruling for her and Saalim. and this is the choice of Imam Ibn Baaz

3) That it is not specific to sahlah and Saalim rather it applies to anyone in such difficult situation as sahlah.

Ibn taymiyyah explained the difficult situation thus; the adult (man) can't do without entering the house of the woman for basic needs and it's difficult for her to observe hijab from him just like this case.

but sheikh Ibn Uthymeen said that it's not possible to find a condition equal to that of Saalim again because she already knew him before the verse was revealed. Therefore the matter returns to being specific to sahlah and Saalim.

Allah knows best.

May allaah grant you goodness akhee. Albaqir needs to be refuted with his distortions.

sino:


You know if this was coming from non Muslims, I would understand their deficiency…

I do not understand what you are trying to proof, your arguments are very weak, and the two articles I posted had already clarified issues any sincere Muslim may have with this narration.

Quoting Sheikh Al-Bany does not help your case whatsoever, we do not have "infallibles", we accord respect and work with facts and the truth not assumptions and negative suspicions.

First and foremost, it is quite unfortunate, that due to wanting to proof a perverse opinion, you forgot all about what Islam teaches, this kind of attitude is common with you and your ilk, especially when you try to defame/denigrate the companions of the Prophet (SAW) (well you claim some not all). I had advised you in regards to this, but it seems such teachings are not an important aspect in shi’ism

Why am I writing all the above? Well it is simple, when you read a narration that is authentic, attributed to the Prophet (SAW), and can have a negative interpretation, as a sincere Muslim, what are you supposed to do?! What a sincere Muslim would do or say is to deny the negative interpretation, as such can never be attributed to him (SAW). So there is a problem with whomever holds on to such negative interpretation, either the person is mistaken, ignorant, deficient in Iman or a hypocrite.

On the meaning of the word rad’ah, perhaps I should try to explain to you what the author was driving at. For example, in Yoruba language, when you tell a nursing mother “fun omo yi ni oyan” meaning (literally) “give this child breast” but would rather be translated as “breastfeed this child” The intended meaning of the sentence in Yoruba is basically feeding, i.e feed this child with breast milk. The child has no use of the breast except for its content, thus the content can be transferred into a container and given to the child. Mothers of today do so, they put their breast milk in bottles and feed their babies, if you ask them, are you breastfeeding your child, they would answer you with in the affirmative.

As I had hinted earlier, even without the narration of Waqidi, one would have to think of the best case scenario, which can only be that there was no contact between Salim and his adopted mother. Why should we do this? Since we know that Islam states that all part of a woman is awrah (unclothedness), except for what is obvious, and the issue being discussed in this narration has to do with awrah of Sahlah and status of Salim (may Allah have mercy on them), then it would make no sense to believe that Salim was suckled by Sahlah (ra) directly, for that would negate the established prohibition in regards her awrah. This was why scholars like An-Nawawi would suggest that it wasn’t a case of direct contact (see the article).

Again it is well established that this case is a special one, and thus cannot be generalized, so any scholar who brings contrary opinion, based on his ijtihad might be mistaken, it is as simple as that. So you cannot quote one or two scholars, when we have on reliable authority, that the wives of the Prophet (SAW) (may Allah have mercy on them all), the Sahabahs, the scholars within the Salafs and the Khalafs, the four school of thoughts, the majority of scholars of our time, hold on to the fact that fosterage can only be established when the breastfeeding is done within 2 years of birth.

And your point on Waqidi holds no water, it is not only maghazi, but the lifes of the sahabas too, he is deemed reliable with conditions, the narration in question do not negate these conditions, thus the narration can be used to further explain the hadith of Salim and his foster mother.

Al-Waqidi’s reliability in Maghazi and Siyar

Early scholars of Islam themselves have maintained a difference between the literature of hadith and history. For instance, those who collected materials concerning the person of the Prophet (siyar) in relation to the legal obligations (al-Ahkam al-Shari’yah) were called “MUhaddithin” (Traditionalists); those who concerned themselves only with the life of the Prophet were known as “Ashab al-Sirah”; those who wrote about the character and habits of the Prophet were called “Ashab al-Shama’il”. And those who concerned themselves with the campaigns of the Prophet were known as the Ashab al-Maghazi.

On the basis of above categorization the same “Ashab al-Rijal” who, have rejected al-Waqidi in Hadith and in discussions on important religious obligations, have at the same time acknowledged his knowledge of the Maghazi and have specified his fact in their criticisms. For instance, the same al-Dhahbi who, at the end of his criticism on al-Waqidi in his Mizan has concluded: “Consensus has taken place on the weakness of al-Waqidi,” has specified in his “Tadhkirat al-Huffaz” that:

He is one of the vessels of knowledge but he is not well-versed in Hadith. But he is an expert (on the top) in Maghazi and Siyar.

Ahmad al-Khazarji writes:
He was a scholar of Maghazi, Siyar, conquests and of difference among the people.

Ibn Hajr himself who, has severely criticized al-Waqidi in his “Tahdhib al-Tahdhib” and “Taqrib al-Tahdhib”, has quoted him extensively in explaining the various events of the battles (ghazawat) and other historical events in his Fath al-Bari, the commentary to Sahih al-Bukhari.

al-Shafi’i has called al-Waqidi a “liar” (kadhab) but at the same time in his monumental work, Kitab al-‘Umm, he has based his inferences on the strength of al-Waqidi’s reports on the Ghazawat.

Source: http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/01/muhammad-ibn-umar-waqidi-narrator.html#more

The above was my initial response to your last post when I didn’t listen to the youtube video of the recording of Sheikh Albany, Alhamdulilah I just finished listening to it hence this reply. I put it to you that you didn’t listen to the Sheikh, or you don’t understand Arabic.

First, the Sheikh stated clearly that the majority of the scholars of Fiqh (Jum’ur) were of the opinion that the issue of Salim is a special one, only few (Including Sheikh Ibn Taymiyah) had the opinion that it wasn’t a special case but rather general, following the Ijtihad of Aisha (RA) as well as applying principles of Shari’ah.

Secondly, maybe you didn’t post where you got the allegation that the Sheikh said “He even says that there is no objection to suckle DIRECTLY from the Tips of the breast for this isn't shahwati (sexual)” please tell me the time let me listen again, or bring another proof for the bold. What I heard was stating that the milk getting into the stomach, no mention of suckling from the tips, or sexuality.

Thirdly, from the beginning, the Sheikh clearly stated the unanimous position in regards relation through fostering, quoting hadith of the year being 2 years. Now go and listen well, He said, when he was about to raise the issue of Salim (RA), that it is a long standing issue, “is it a special case or can be allowed for SIMILAR cases?” in which he later stated that the wives of the Peophet (SAW) had differences….One needs to understand the background of Salim case to know the usefulness of using SIMILAR by Sheikh Al-Bany (go and read the two articles again).

Reading the forgoing, I can’t help but wonder how you arrived at what you posted…it baffles me such mindset you guys operate, it is just grotesque!

Akhee, u av done more dan enough in trying to explain. May allaah grant u goodness, ameen.