Since you place much value on deep, intellectual reasoning, I'd be amazed, nay, appalled if you've never taken time to ponder on the following possibilities. And if you have, I'd like to know what your conclusion was

WHAT IF. . .

What if, in the end, we ("theists" discovered that we had been deluded to believe in the existence of God, that there's actually no place of eternal rest and bliss for those who lived for him and a place of eternal regrets for those who despised him. WHAT WOULD WE HAVE LOST?

But what if you discovered that you had actually made the greatest mistake of your life by joining forces with Satan (albeit inadvertently) to rebel against your creator, deny his existence and rebuff every counsel to live for him. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE GAINED? And how would you undo the terrible harm you would have done to yourselves?

This is not a matter for debate; it's just a food for thought. Let's assume any of the two eventualities could happen, wouldn't it be wiser for you to be on God's side than the other? From all indications, you are taking a far greater and weightier risk than those who believe in God.

Or what do you think?

@ poster,

If God exist, we wouldn't need extensive research,logic and arguement to find out,

If God exist, it should be obvious just like the existence of sun,moon, man, woman are obvious ,

If God exist, he wouldnt need you to worship him through any human being and he himself should be able to show himself to you and teach the way to worship him.

If God exist, he wouldnt be worshiped on complete irrationality and total ignorance.

No man have ever seeing God, even those who claim they are worshiping him.

Understand that no atheist hates God, ( who would hate his creator) we only need evidence atleast to be sure of what we are doing, If God shows himself today, atheist will worship him far better than the present day hypocrise theist,

If eventualy God exist,he does not have any justifiable reason to send an atheist to hell, it is God's fault that he can not proove himself to the atheist and not the atheist fault that he couldn't believe in an imposed unprooved God,

Most atheist today are people who have once in their life time seeked God's face so dearly but could not find one.

banom:

@ poster,

If eventualy God exist,he does not have any justifiable reason to send an atheist to hell, it is God's fault that he can not proove himself to the atheist and not the atheist fault that he couldn't believe in an imposed unprooved God,

Most atheist today are people who have once in their life time seeked God's face so dearly but could not find one.

Sorry, but this is really laughable. 

To you, that'll be a plausible explanation, if you eventually discover that God exists; but looking at it closely, does it really sound reasonable? If you claim it's because God can't "prove" himself beyond doubt that you choose to deny his existence, how come the majority believes that he exists? That's enough evidence to convict you. I'm not sure God would have any time for debate with you or defend his actions  because the proof that he actually revealed himself but you chose to ignore the signs would be obvious - the greater multitudes that believed in him.

Let's apply a bit of logic here. If as a class-teacher, you thought you clearly told your students to bring a certain textbook to the class on a particular day and, out of 50 students who were present in the class, 40 complied and 10 denied hearing anything like that. Would you need any other proof that you really did make the announcement when you have 40 witnesses? Would any neutral observer make a sense of what the 10 errant students are saying?

gen2genius:

Sorry, but this is really laughable.
Let's apply a bit of logic here. If as a class-teacher, you thought you clearly told your students to bring a certain textbook to the class on a particular day and, out of 50 students who were present in the class, 40 complied and 10 denied hearing anything like that. Would you need any other proof that you really did make the announcement when you have 40 witnesses? Would any neutral observer make a sense of what the 10 errant students are saying?

That is exactly why God doesn't have any justifiable reason to send an atheist to hell, in your example above, the class teacher stands as God, and the class
teacher himself told the whole class to bring the text book, but in the case of religion, it is man who does the announcement himself not God, imagine Jesus christ a fellow human been claiming that he is God, in your example above, it is like a fellow class mate now claiming that he is now the teacher and he announced to his fellow class mate which book to bring and which one not to bring,

so how can you justify a student who refused to believe his fellow student and demands that he needs evidence from the teacher himself before bringing any book. is he right or wrong ?

LOL, why did you decide to focus on my illustration, instead of the main point I raised? My point is, if, indeed, God hadn't proven himself to be real, how come majority of people believe that he exists? What makes you think your excuse will be acceptable when there are multitudes of witnesses to prove that God never hid himself from anyone, except those who chose not to see?


Here is what a man like you was inspired to write (I've made my point above, so you may not need to pick me up on this lol ):

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1:18-22)

If this man and BILLIONS of others could see clearly, you think you can sensibly hold God responsible for your self-inflicted "blindness" 

gen2genius:

My point is, if, indeed, God hadn't proven himself to be real, how come majority of people believe that he exists? What makes you think your excuse will be acceptable when there are multitudes of witnesses to prove that God never hid himself from anyone, except those who chose not to see?

"God" didn't always exist. People used to worship plants, mountains, rivers, the skies and stuff like that before the idea of God ever came into being. God evolved into what you know today.

Krayola2:

"God" didn't always exist. People used to worship plants, mountains, rivers, the skies and stuff like that before the idea of God ever came into being. God evolved into what you know today.

Interesting view, Krayola

First, do you have proofs to back up your claim?

Second, what gave them the consciousness to "worship" anything at all, if they didn't think there was something supernatural about their environment?

gen2genius:





Interesting view, Krayola

First, do you have proofs to back up your claim?

Second, what gave them the consciousness to "worship" anything at all, if they didn't think there was something supernatural about their environment?

The idea of one supreme God pretty much started with the Jews. Religion has been around long before then.

People started making tools and stuff and they realized the concept of purpose driven actions. kinda like cause and effect. They figured there must have been a cause to natural phenomena that they couldn't control (that there must have been someone planning and executing rainfall, earthquakes etc),  They believed everything in nature was animated with spirits and had powers.

There is no "proof" of stuff like this. How can anyone prove stuff that happened hundreds of thousands of years ago? It's mostly studies that have been done on the oldest existing religions and other stuff from cultural/cross-cultural anthropology.

@poster
Your initial question is known as pascal's wager and assumes that there is only one religion (Christianity) that you either believe in and go to heaven when you die, or you dont and go to hell.

Since two thirds of the world's population are not christians and do not believe in Jesus Christ, what makes you so sure that your particular denomination of christianity (and there are literally thousands) is the right one?

Using your own analogy of a school teacher instructing his pupils to bring a particular book to class, as with the amount of different religions in the world today and different denominations, all of the pupils would have brought a different book to class.

If you just believe in Christianity because you think that is what god wants you to do save your ass from hell, then you are being selfish, intellectually dishonest and blind to the fact that you are most likely to have chosen the wrong god.

When you die and go before your creator and you see Zeus, or Allah, or Krishna etc. sitting on his golden throne, He will be pretty pissed off with you for not believing in him.

99.9% of the world's population are not Seventh Day Adventists, yet they are convinced that they have got it right.

Think about it.

Respects

gen2genius:

Since you place much value on deep, intellectual reasoning, I'd be amazed, nay, appalled if you've never taken time to ponder on the following possibilities. And if you have, I'd like to know what your conclusion was

What you present isn't intellectual reasonin but GAMBLING and hoping you're right. . .there're no 'What ifs' in life situations. There's either CLEAR EVIDENCE FOR SOMETHING OR NOT!

WHAT IF. . .

What if, in the end, we ("theists" discovered that we had been deluded to believe in the existence of God, that there's actually no place of eternal rest and bliss for those who lived for him and a place of eternal regrets for those who despised him. WHAT WOULD WE HAVE LOST?

It's the same feeling you get when you discover you've been lied to all your life. .like they say SELF DECEIT IS THE MOST PATHETIC OF THEM ALL!

But what if you discovered that you had actually made the greatest mistake of your life by joining forces with Satan (albeit inadvertently) to rebel against your creator, deny his existence and rebuff every counsel to live for him. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE GAINED? And how would you undo the terrible harm you would have done to yourselves?

There's absolutely no mistake. The christian god definately DOES NOT EXIST. Blackmail or fear wouldn't make me subscribe to some fallacious idea.
BTW what if you'd been wrong and ALLAH turns out to be the true god?

This is not a matter for debate; it's just a food for thought. Let's assume any of the two eventualities could happen, wouldn't it be wiser for you to be on God's side than the other? From all indications, you are taking a far greater and weightier risk than those who believe in God.

Or what do you think?

Like i said what if allah is the true god?
Aren't you taking a great and weightier risk following the warrior god of the desert-trekking isrealites?

You can't believe coz you're afraid of being wrong or eternal damnation. . . .that is what religion teaches and like we all know. . .IT'S ALL A BIG RUSE!

@ Mantra and Tudor,

Seriously, I don't get what you're rambling about. I mentioned "theists" not Christians

Tudor, if you claim there are no "what ifs" in life, why do scientists make hypothesis? And could you explain the origin of life to me with CLEAR evidence?

gen2genius:

@ Mantra and Tudor,

Seriously, I don't get what you're rambling about. I mentioned "theists" not Christians 

What are you rambling?
Are christians not theists?
You hypocritically state your case like all "theists" have the same views as to the right god when in actual fact thousands of theistic dogmas exist.

Tudor, if you claim there are no "what ifs" in life, why do scientists make hypothesis?

When scientists make hypothesis they go on to experiment and test their hypothesis. Nobody takes a hypothesis as absolute truth until it's been proven.

And could you explain the origin of life to me with CLEAR evidence?

I don't know the origin of life or our world neither do i subscribe to baseless and crazy tales in order to fill that void.
Knowledge comes with time just like in the old days people had no idea why tides rose or what caused a thrown stone to fall back to the ground. . .sooner or later the answers would be found whether in my life time or not, i couldn't care less.

mantraa:

@poster
Your initial question is known as pascal's wager and assumes that there is only one religion (Christianity) that you either believe in and go to heaven when you die, or you dont and go to hell.

Since two thirds of the world's population are not christians and do not believe in Jesus Christ, what makes you so sure that your particular denomination of christianity (and there are literally thousands) is the right one?

Using your own analogy of a school teacher instructing his pupils to bring a particular book to class, as with the amount of different religions in the world today and different denominations, all of the pupils would have brought a different book to class.

If you just believe in Christianity because you think that is what god wants you to do save your ass from hell, then you are being selfish, intellectually dishonest and blind to the fact that you are most likely to have chosen the wrong god.

When you die and go before your creator and you see Zeus, or Allah, or Krishna etc. sitting on his golden throne, He will be pretty pissed off with you for not believing in him.

99.9% of the world's population are not Seventh Day Adventists, yet they are convinced that they have got it right.

Think about it.

Respects

My thoughts exactly, I think a creator would reward skepticism and honesty over believing and being gullible, at least I did not know which one to choose, you on the other hand might have chosen the wrong one. So much for your probability.

When you die and go before your creator and you see Zeus, or Allah, or Krishna etc. sitting on his golden throne, He will be pretty pissed off with you for not believing in him.

Zeus exists only in myths and Krisha never claimed to be God

gen2genius:

@ Mantra and Tudor,

Seriously, I don't get what you're rambling about. I mentioned "theists" not Christians

If you generalise it, then you make your case worse,
Ok, lets assume atheist are totaly wrong and you theist are right, then how many Gods do you now have, God, Allah. Zeus, Nkume in my village  and so many other Gods,
secondly, how can you reconcile Jesus christ claime of being the only way to heaven if all the theist are right ?
In addition, why is that with all these claims of Gods made by many religions, none have been prooven ?

Banom, can you clearly explain why you think there is no God?

gen2genius:

Zeus exists only in myths and Krisha never claimed to be God

Just like your yaweh. . .

gen2genius:

Zeus exists only in myths and Krisha never claimed to be God

Same as Jesus, "Son of God"

@poster
Take a look at this list of the gods christians dont believe in, compared to the list of gods atheist don't believe in and you will see that we are 99.99% in agreement with each other.  

http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/02/11/gods-we-dont-believe-in/

respects

gen2genius:

Banom, can you clearly explain why you think there is no God?

Because i have never seen, touched or in any way sensed him, can you define the meaning of[b] existence[/b] for me ?
Understand this,Believing is not the problem, but believing in the real one,
If God shows himself, i will believe in him if he doesnt, i will never believe.

mantraa:

@poster
Take a look at this list of the gods christians dont believe in, compared to the list of gods atheist don't believe in and you will see that we are 99.99% in agreement with each other.  

http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/02/11/gods-we-dont-believe-in/

respects

Its not just God atheists don't believe in. Angels, spirits, demons, heaven, hell, miracles, afterlife etc are all bullshit too. "Atheism' isn't a big enough word. . .

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1:18-22)

hi all athiest, please if u dont want to accept my view, kindly do the above personally
Look within yourself and u will see what is of God in u for He has shown to u. please do this for me.

Krayola2:

Its not just God atheists don't believe in. Angels, spirits, demons, heaven, hell, miracles, afterlife etc are all bullshit too. "Atheism' isn't a big enough word. . .

the big bang, evolution, abiogenesis too? C'mon your basis for belief in those two is dependent on faith.

davidylan:

the big bang, evolution, abiogenesis too? C'mon your basis for belief in those two is dependent on faith.

i'd give you the other two but faith in evolution? come on dog.

But what if you discovered that you had actually made the greatest mistake of your life by joining forces with Satan (albeit inadvertently) to rebel against your creator, deny his existence and rebuff every counsel to live for him. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE GAINED? And how would you undo the terrible harm you would have done to yourselves?

i would have gained nothing (there's nothing to gain in atheism in either way).

what do you mean join forces with satan? you mean a take over the world evil alliance?

bawomolo:

i'd give you the other two but faith in evolution? come on dog.

have you observed evolution? How do you know its true?

davidylan:

have you observed evolution? How do you know its true?

I haven't observed it but are you saying the theory of evolution is totally based on faith or some weird mathematics like say the string theory?

Didn't read the entire post but for the initial post,

I've been asked this question times before and here's the answer I always give,  I don't think I'm wrong but let's just say I am.  So we die and it's time to be judged and go to "heaven" or "hell".  For me, if the only reason I am not let into "heaven" is because I didn't believe in God, not because I was a bad person, criminal etc,   If God's reason is "Because you didn't believe in me, worship me and spend hours praising and proclaiming me, I'm sending you to eternal damnation" Then for me, it totally proves why I didn't worship him and I still wouldn't want to be a part of that.  If there was a God, I don't think he would be that petty and vengeful. 

This one of the reasons I do not believe the Bible is inspired by God but man creating a God and imposing his own characteristics on him.  Quotes like "I'm a jealous God, you shall worship no other god but me", "There's a land flowing with milk and honey, go and conquer the peoples and take over their land" , "I'll punish your descendants generations after you for your sins against me" and countless others,  to me these are the thoughts of man not God.

Here are a few quotes I like:
"And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence." - Bertrand Russell

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself." - Sir Francis Burton

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do" - Anonymous



As for what theists will lose, are you assuming all theists are worshiping the same God?

Naira.:

Didn't read the entire post but for the initial post,

I've been asked this question times before and here's the answer I always give,  I don't think I'm wrong but let's just say I am.  So we die and it's time to be judged and go to "heaven" or "hell".  For me, if the only reason I am not let into "heaven" is because I didn't believe in God, not because I was a bad person, criminal etc,   If God's reason is "Because you didn't believe in me, worship me and spend hours praising and proclaiming me, I'm sending you to eternal damnation" Then for me, it totally proves why I didn't worship him and I still wouldn't want to be a part of that.  If there was a God, I don't think he would be that petty and vengeful. 

This one of the reasons I do not believe the Bible is inspired by God but man creating a God and imposing his own characteristics on him.  Quotes like "I'm a jealous God, you shall worship no other god but me", "There's a land flowing with milk and honey, go and conquer the peoples and take over their land" , "I'll punish your descendants generations after you for your sins against me" and countless others,  to me these are the thoughts of man not God.

Here are a few quotes I like:
"And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence." - Bertrand Russell

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself." - Sir Francis Burton

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do" - Anonymous



As for what theists will lose, are you assuming all theists are worshiping the same God?

Very well thought out reply.
Cheers.

davidylan:

the big bang, evolution, abiogenesis too? C'mon your basis for belief in those two is dependent on faith.

I don't believe in the big bang. . . I think it is a possibility though.

I believe that we got here through evolution. I don't have "faith" in evolution. It has little to do with my immediate life. . .where does faith come into the picture?

i have no idea what abiogenesis means. i can define it, but i don't know all the scientific shit

davidylan:

the big bang, evolution, abiogenesis too? C'mon your basis for belief in those two is dependent on faith.

This fool just comes and thinks he has to just say something so that he can soothe his deluded ego. . . Most of the atheist i know do not believe in any of these things. . . .

Excellent post Naira.

There is nothing like god all the gods were created out of the fear of the many and the cleverness of a few. Take a look at the bible and you will see that the biblegod kept changing and evolving when the people changed.

If there is a god he will not allow all the deluded goons we have around defending his positions and telling people what he likes, dislikes or believes. he will do it himself. Read the bible and the koran and you will SEE that people wrote down all the thoughts, ideas and imaginations themselves for either political reasons or because they just wanted to keep each other in line. . . . .Nothing supernatural is contained in either the bible or the koran, just the mere thoughts, imaginations and fantasies of ancient people.

If I die I KNOW that nothing will happen to me there will be no jesus, yahweh, allah, kirsha etc to tell me shit. . . . . . . . .

Naira.:

Didn't read the entire post but for the initial post,

I've been asked this question times before and here's the answer I always give,  I don't think I'm wrong but let's just say I am.  So we die and it's time to be judged and go to "heaven" or "hell".  For me, if the only reason I am not let into "heaven" is because I didn't believe in God, not because I was a bad person, criminal etc,   If God's reason is "Because you didn't believe in me, worship me and spend hours praising and proclaiming me, I'm sending you to eternal damnation" Then for me, it totally proves why I didn't worship him and I still wouldn't want to be a part of that.  If there was a God, I don't think he would be that petty and vengeful. 

This one of the reasons I do not believe the Bible is inspired by God but man creating a God and imposing his own characteristics on him.  Quotes like "I'm a jealous God, you shall worship no other god but me", "There's a land flowing with milk and honey, go and conquer the peoples and take over their land" , "I'll punish your descendants generations after you for your sins against me" and countless others,  to me these are the thoughts of man not God.

Here are a few quotes I like:
"And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence." - Bertrand Russell

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself." - Sir Francis Burton

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do" - Anonymous



As for what theists will lose, are you assuming all theists are worshiping the same God?

Quoted for affirmation.

davidylan:

the big bang, evolution, abiogenesis too? C'mon your basis for belief in those two is dependent on faith.

Why do these things bother you so much? There more Christians that believe in evolution than atheist here, the big bang was coined by a Christian. So many christians believe in these things while so many atheist do not believe in them, your ridiculous attempts to force all atheist as believers in all these does not make sense at all there are so many atheist that do not believe in them.