Welcome, Guest: Register On Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / NewStats: 3,194,466 members, 7,954,822 topics. Date: Saturday, 21 September 2024 at 10:14 AM |
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? (8064 Views)
Is Eternity In Hellfire A Fair Punishment For Sin? / Is Being A Morally Good Person Enough For God? / Is It Morally Right For A Pastor To Use A Phone To Read Out Bible? (2) (3) (4)
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (Reply) (Go Down)
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 9:37am On Apr 21, 2016 |
dorox:Your God is Yahweh? What??. And speak about him with such venom and condemnation? Icantbilivit. You must be a JW who takes side with the Satanists and atheists against the Bible. Listen bro, Maybe I read a different Bible from yours. But the one I have here, I didn't write it. From my Bible, it is written in Matthew 13:24-29 Another parable He set forth before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while he was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed also darnel (weeds resembling wheat) among the wheat, and went on his way. So when the plants sprouted and formed grain, the darnel (weeds) appeared also. And the servants of the owner came to him and said, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then how does it have darnel shoots in it? He replied to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and weed them out? But he said, No, lest in gathering the wild wheat (weeds resembling wheat), you root up the [true] wheat along with it. Here Christ tells a parable; But below is the interpretation of the parable so you don't go telling me it's just a parable. Christ used the known to teach the unknown. Matthew 13: 37-44 He answered, He Who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed means the children of the kingdom; the darnel is the children of the evil one, And the enemy who sowed it is the devil. The harvest is the close and consummation of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the darnel (weeds resembling wheat) is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the close of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of offense [persons by whom others are drawn into error or sin] and all who do iniquity and act wickedly, And will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and wailing and grinding of teeth. Then will the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God) shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him who has ears [to hear] be listening, and let him consider and perceive and understand by hearing. That is from the mouth of Jesus himself. Maybe Jesus is too cruel to be the Son of your own Yahweh. Wait! You actually think that the kind of evil being perpetrated by man on this earth will go unpunished? Well, think again. When you reject life you shall die, and it's the physical death am talking about here, for everyone including Jesus died that dead, but am referring to the spiritual dead here. Do you remember I asked you how God failed you? Do you remember the venom coming out out you against this God? Materialism is the gospel of Lucifer. He tells you that there's no AFTERLIFE, everything you do here ends at death, really? So you can go ahead and do as you like, the day you die it ends. Na big lie. You'll stand to account for the things you said here today. Your Malignity, your scorn, your insults, how you lived your life, all will be accounted for. Don't deceive yourself that God is too good to over look your evil. 3 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by dorox(m): 9:57am On Apr 21, 2016 |
analice107: I think my illustration is very fair and unbiased. Before Adam was created the bible tells us that he was nowhere, just collection of lifeless dust being swept by the wind on the earth's surface. The same applies to you and I, before we were born we never existed somewhete else. So how can it be fair to lovingly give life to and make that life miserable because the person chose to rebel? Surely if life is a gift, then as free humans we should have the option to say no thank you for that gift and become the dust we once were. 3 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by dorox(m): 10:21am On Apr 21, 2016 |
analice107:My statements so far have been benign in my opinion I fail to see the venom you speak of. I only said that I find the notion that immortal souls will be tortured eternally for committing finite sins reprehensible. The fact that some people call that deity Yaweh does not change the nature of the act ascribed to Him. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 10:23am On Apr 21, 2016 |
dorox: 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 10:25am On Apr 21, 2016 |
dorox: How many times have I asked you? Would you have wished that man was without responsibilities and without Willpower? 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 10:39am On Apr 21, 2016 |
TheProphetess: Would you have wished that man had no responsibilities or choices? In every game, they most be two players, so far we have been x-raying only one player, God. Come on, let's x-ray Man if we fine him not deserving of his sins, then let's join hands and crucify this cruel God for his injustices. Come on Prophetess let's do it. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by dorox(m): 10:44am On Apr 21, 2016 |
analice107: I have never implied nor do I wish for one moment that man was without responsibilties and willpower, so I fail to see the relevance of your question. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by TheProphetess(f): 11:06am On Apr 21, 2016 |
analice107: But a baby or a small child is not capable of making such choices or decisions Someone who has never had the oppurtunity to hear the gospel has no choice. If you were born on a desert island and had no access to bible for your whole life and you go to hell who's fault is it? Your's or the god that placed you there? 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 11:26am On Apr 21, 2016 |
BIBLESPEAKS: When you began your commentary, I was looking forward to something out of this world, but you disappointed me in that you ended up speaking like a child. Talking Divine Justice. Who sets the standards here? If God says thou shall not Steal how many times do you need to steal to become a thief? How many times you need to disobey for it to be termed as disobedience? God is indeed a lover of Justice, What then is Justice? Let me tell you a little story. Some years back, I was in an accident an was admitted in an hospital in the east, The medical Director of the orthopedic hospital I was, was also a consultant in Federal Medical Center. While he was there one morning, some armed men entered the maternity ward, taking the whole place hostage, they picked new born babies into the Ghana must go bags they came with and left. Rumour has it that, money ritualists need this babies for money making. How should God judge this case now? If God sets the ritualists free because he is such a loving and merciful God , what about the families of this kids? What about this kids? Don't they have a right to life? Why is your application of love only on one side? God loves, why shouldn't man also love like his God? If a man commits a crime, he is convicted by the court of law and be sent to prison. What is the divine court of law? In that court of law where is the prison? Why are you not running wild blaming Judges for sentencing men to death as capital punishment? Is that not cruel? Why don't you call the Judges wicked? It's just a crime, the criminal should be set free. Here is immediately a criminal is caught, straight to court, if found guilty straight sentencing. But God gives a criminal a long robe of 70 to 100 years. Yet that doesn't suffice. If a man steals 2 cubes of Maggi, is he a thief? How many cubes of Maggi do you think he should steal before you will agree he is a thief? Listen up professor, it's not about what he stole. God is not going to judge us by what we did basically. He will judge the NATURE which puts that criminal to that theft. The motive behind why you did it is what God will judge. Bringing up a child who steals 2cubes of Maggi hoping you'd draw sympathy is lame. For a child who is not yet to the age of accountability will not be held accountable. You seem not to even know the God you are talking about. Regardless of how much sin they commit, punish in hellfire is unjust according to who? You? So which is fair? Boo, beyond this realm, there are just two options. It's either this or that. The fairness is the long robe of 70 to a 100 years you are given here while still alive. I find your thoughts about this whole matter very disturbing to say the least. You never seem to acknowledge that Man is a responsible being with a will to make his choices. You never seem to realise or be truthful enough to admit that man has not been left without an option. The world hasn't ended you know? The door is still open, why are you not pointing towards the way out of this hellfire to man now that we are still here? This Luciferean gospel you people preach won't help you or anyone around you. Salvation is still free, why aren't you up shouting about it. No one is pushed to hellfire. We decide to go there or not, why is that so hard to grasp? You talk only about the cruelty of God, have you met Christ? Am not saying believe in Him, am saying pick your Bible and read about him, just read, don't let what you read sink. Face value reading. Imaoooo. 5 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 11:45am On Apr 21, 2016 |
dorox:You opened this thread remember? And I have followed you so far. There's no where you have said or implied that man did something good or bad which is why am here right now still talking to you. In everything, there are causes and effects. You have been all the while talking about the effects not the causes. Why is man in hellfire? is what I want us to talk about for awhile. Is man just picked and dropped in hell? Did he do something? If yes, what? 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by dorox(m): 11:57am On Apr 21, 2016 |
You told you daughter to always be good and not steal, that if she does you will put pepper in her eyes and burn her hands with fire. She disobeys you repeatedly, so one day after catching her red handed you decided that enough was enough and went ahead to pour pepper into her eyes and burn her hands in fire. If onlookers should call you a wicked mother for that act would they be wrong? Would you see their objection to such barbaric punishment for petty theft as an indivtion that they condole stealing, or as the fact that they think the punishment is not comensurate to the crime? Lastly, would you accuse them of not wanting your child to take responsibilty for her actions? 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 12:00pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
TheProphetess:Madam prophetess which part of the Bible told ypu kids will go to hell? Have you been to the North? Will you say they don't know about Christ? Listen up Proph, am reading this book, In "Search of Assurance" written by an Ex-Muslim from the part of India which bothers with Pakistan. How he found Christ in the midst of all the Muslims. This was back in the 60s breaking 70s. They brought death to the boy, but the boy at the very early age refused to die. He resisted and stood for Christ, today he preaches Christ. We read everyday testimonies of conversion. I have met one from kano. He walked into church asking to see the pastor, by himself. His father is a Mullah (not sure of the spelling), He has been hiding his faith for long, until he couldn't anymore, he said he was ready if his father will call for his killing fine, he was ready to die. Where is he from? Is it not from there? These people have the presence of the gospel always staring them in the face but they fight it vigorously. Maybe you should read it. Till today, you dare not talk about the Jesus of the Bible, only the caricature Isa of the Koran. They reject it doesn't mean they don't know it. So many are hidden Christians but afraid for their lives, In due time, they like others shall break free. So don't tell me about being born in the desert. Jesus is Lord of the desert. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 12:04pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
dorox:Maybe you think your statements are benign but they are certainly not. It wreaks of anger and intense bitterness against a god Who calls himself loving and good yet burns people in hellfire. 2 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 12:29pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
dorox:What if we look at it this way? Am a mother, Angela is my daughter. I discover Angie pilfer, I call Angie in and tell her, my daughter, whatever I have is yours, anytime you need anything, come to me, pls don't take what belongs to others without letting them know. When they loose their stuff, it hurts them because they need their stuff. Even if it's mine, still tell me, I won't stop you from take g it, just let me know, beside stealing is very wrong, it brings shame and People would find it hard to trust you, and you need people to trust, pls my daughter don't again okay? Angie says, yes mummy. But anytime Angie sees something and when no one is around, she will take it. Little by little it grew. When she was too young to understand the consequences, I talked to her, repeatedly. When she grew older I spanked her for others to see am not condoning her pilfering. Yet, this child won't stop. Everyday neighbours cry out because Angie haven followed their kids to their houses Angie had stolen their money. My home is now known as a home of thieves. Now anytime something gets missing, all fingers are pointed towards my house. One day, I couldn't take it anymore, I wear my shorts and tie my wrapper firmly on top of it and say, Angie today go be today. Enough of the embarrassment and shame then I get down on her real good. Call me whatever you like, that's your business. Let me tell you something about my home. You do not, I repeat, do not, pick anything be it money or any other thing and bringing it home to my mother's house. When I was less than 10 was when I learned that lesson, I picked money, No, I didn't steal it, I picked it, and I thought I was a good child so rough it back home a showed my mum, since it was the first time, My mum followed me to where I said I picked it, she said drop it there, I did, we went back home. Another time, I picked money again, I knew if I showed her, I was going to lose it, so I had it. I bought something with it and I was caught. Gracious Lord!!!! Till I leave this earth I won't forget what my mum did to me. What you described is minimal. She tied me up with a robe and actually put that pepper in my Anus and eyes and kept me in the hot sun, all the while screaming on top of her voice, no child of mine will be a thief. But I was crying and saying, I didn't steal it, she said, you will steal if you don't stop now. When I was released, I advised myself against picking other things. Till this day, I don't pick things on the road. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by Blackfire(m): 12:57pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
analice107: 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by dorox(m): 1:05pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
analice107:While I think the punishment your mother meted out to you was very extreme and borders on child abused as defined by the law of many countries on child welfare, no one can deny that your mother did that terrible act to you out of love for you. I am sure that she had hoped that by putting pepper into your anus you will get reformed and eventually be redeemed into a better person. That is a very good motive that cannot be faulted even though the method is faulty and reprehensible to most people. The problem with hellfire and it is very important problem, one that separate it from the example of your mother, is that the punishment is just there for torture sake. There is no intention for the souls to be reformed or redeemed after say a certain amount of suffering and a given amount of time. The exercise is just pointless, it aims to achieve nothing but the saddistic sufferings of souls that never asked to be given life in the first place. 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by Scholar8200(m): 2:02pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
Now dorox, would you consider it justice if the thief on the cross was granted an eternal bliss? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by Scholar8200(m): 2:04pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
Now dorox, would you consider it justice if the thief on the cross was granted an eternal bliss? While the other that railed on Jesus ends in eternal destruction? God gave a condition, how many times did Adam and Eve need to flout it to face the consequences ? Kindly answer these. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by cloudgoddess(f): 2:21pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
analice107:And not once throughout your life have you considered other ways she could have effectively taught you that lesson? Burning you and potentially causing serious irritation to delicate body tissues, was necessary for you to learn to respect peoples' things? Your mother was abusive and probably borderline psychotic, and you rejoice for it. This clarifies so much about your way of thinking. You've been desensitized to abuse, so understandably your sense of justice is skewed and inhumane. And on top of that, this analogy is still lacking because it does not even remotely reflect the hell situation in severity or implication. A more equal comparison would be, instead of putting pepper in your eyes and anus ( ), your mother splashing petrol on your eyes and anus, lighting them on fire, and repeating this process for literal infinity, with no chance of you returning to a state of non-suffering. Repeated pain and torture for the rest of existence, far longer than any human lifespan. Eternal punishment for a finite crime. 14 Likes 6 Shares |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by dorox(m): 2:35pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
Scholar8200:They were both deserving of death. In fact we all are deserving of death after our first parents Adam and Eve sinned against God, and brought death into the world of man. But out of the underserved kindness and love God have for the world He sent His Son Jesus Christ to ransome us from our enslavement to sin so that by exercising faith in him we might not perish but be given everlasting life. So to recap, the wages of sin is death and we are all sinners and are bound to die, whether at the cross, or an accident on the road, or via an illness or through old age, we are all set to die from the day we are born because everyone of us was born a sinner. No amount of self righteousness can ever redeem us from our sin. Going back to your question, it wasn't justice that made Jesus to promise paradise to the remorseful thief, it was mercy. And it is this same mercy that Jesus has extended to all those who believe in him. The wicked thief simply paid for his sin with his life. While the remorseful thief had his sin paid for with Jusus' life. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by Theophinio(m): 3:00pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
These things are spirit, they can't be comprehended with the flesh
PEACE 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by Theophinio(m): 3:00pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
These things are spirit, they can't be comprehended with the flesh
PEACE 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by dorox(m): 3:12pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
Theophinio:What do you mean by spirit? I would like to know. 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 3:20pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
[quote author=dorox post=44907506] While I think the punishment your mother meted out to you was very extreme and borders on child abused as defined by the law of many countries on child welfare, no one can deny that your mother did that terrible act to you out of love for you. I am sure that she had hoped that by putting pepper into your anus you will get reformed and eventually be redeemed into a better person. That is a very good motive that cannot be faulted even though the method is faulty and reprehensible to most people. The problem with hellfire and it is very important problem, one that separate it from the example of your mother, is that the punishment is just there for torture sake. There is no intention for the souls to be reformed or redeemed after say a certain amount of suffering and a given amount of time. The exercise is just pointless, it aims to achieve nothing but the saddistic sufferings of souls that never asked to be given life in the first place.[/quote Why did God create hellfire? Let's talk about it for once. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 3:37pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
cloudgoddess:You have killed reason so you no long have any. Let me take it that you didn't read the illustration @dorox made which I responded to. Cloudgoddess, It was my mother's prerogative to raise her children as she saw fit. We all turned out very responsible. All of us. Males and females, all responsible. I don't regret how I turn out, so, it's your business if you decides to insult or call my mother names. I can see how well your mother raised you, If you can talk about God the way you do, I wonder how you deal with people around you. Cloudgoodness Why was hellfire created and for who was it created? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by Scholar8200(m): 3:42pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
dorox:But before the mercy was granted there had to be faith! Mercy could only be received on a condition. Faith expresssed in repentance. It takes faith in Who Jesus is for a dying man to say that to One Who everyone thought was just another dying Man! Who would you then blame for the one that perished? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 3:43pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
dorox:Very good responds. But I have one question. When you said the wages of sin is death. What death do you mean? Is it the death of the flesh? If yes, what sin did Jesus commit to die that dead? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by dorox(m): 3:45pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
analice107:You tell me if you know the answer to your question. I created this thread inorder to get a better understanding of why hell was created, because ip till now the reason for its creation eludes me. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by dorox(m): 4:11pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
analice107:In describing death God said " you are made from dust and you will return to dust". It was true for adam and it has been true for every man that have ever lived except Jesus who was raised up an immortal spirit after staying dead for three days. So the snswer to your question is yes, at death we become lifeless dust that we once were. Jesus did not commit any sin, we did and his death was for our sin. The wages of sin has to be paid one way or the other. We can either pay it with our life and be dead for good or we can accept the payment made by Jesus on our behalf to have the hope of everlasting life. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 4:12pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
dorox:So you have been losing sleep over something you don't even know anything about? You have called God all manner of names over something you don't know? Lolzzzz. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by dorox(m): 4:22pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
analice107:I have never lost one second of sleep over hell since I discarded the belief. To say that something eludes you in the context I used it means that you find it senseless and useless. And it for this reason that I created the thread. I think that the notion of hell is evil and irreconcilable with the God I worship, so I asked if you guys have any reasonable argument that can justify why the concept of hell is not of a wicked being but a loving God. So far, I have got nothing. 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Can Hellfire Be Morally Justified? by analice107: 4:29pm On Apr 21, 2016 |
dorox:Are you sure you don't loose sleep over this matter? Ha, maybe you should go back and reread your comments again. You have discarded the hellfire belief yet you opened this thread calling God cruel, sadistic and wicked for burning man eternally? You mean we have been on this issue when you have discarded the belief? 1 Like 1 Share |
End Of Year Awards Organisation Thread. Panel Members Only / Did Christ Actually Take Away The Sins Of The World? / Don't Mess With God. Read This.
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 162 |