Pls ive always believed in free will but what does Romans 9 :16 and John 1:13 really mean? It seems we cant decide or choose to be saved?

Thats confusing.

Those scriptures are as straight forward as they are. We have a choice to please God, but it is God choice and decision to choose who he wants to be saved

Verse 12 of John chapter 1 shows what we should choose to do.

Salvation is an undeserved kindness. Not something we earn or deserve. This should make us humble and indebted to God.

VictorRomanov:
Those scriptures are as straight forward as they are. We have a choice to please God, but it is God choice and decision to choose who he wants to be saved

Verse 12 of John chapter 1 shows what we should choose to do.

Salvation is an undeserved kindness. Not something we earn or deserve. This should make us humble and indebted to God.

Blessed be God, He accepts whosoever will!

Scholar8200:
Blessed be God, He accepts whosoever will!

But the bible says he wills those who accept? Read it again

VictorRomanov:
Those scriptures are as straight forward as they are. We have a choice to please God, but it is God choice and decision to choose who he wants to be saved

Verse 12 of John chapter 1 shows what we should choose to do.

Salvation is an undeserved kindness. Not something we earn or deserve. This should make us humble and indebted to God.

Thank you. So we cant accept God on our own except he has saved us?

Stupedinluv,

We choose to be saved and we choose to be lost. When we accept Jesus Christ into our lives and begin to bear fruits meet for repentance, we have been born of GOD, according to John 1:13.

Romans 9:16 makes us understand that no one can be saved or make Heaven by his/her own power.

GOD has not reserved salvation for some people, and damnation for the others. Those who will be saved are those who accept GOD's invitation, and then run this Christian race with His help.

DoctorAlien:
Stupedinluv,

We choose to be saved and we choose to be lost. When we accept Jesus Christ into our lives and begin to bear fruits meet for repentance, we have been born of GOD, according to John 1:13.

Romans 9:16 makes us understand that no one can be saved or make Heaven by his/her own power.

GOD has not reserved salvation for some people, and damnation for the others. Those who will be saved are those who accept GOD's invitation, and then run this Christian race with His help.

nawa o. Thats what i thought too but what i am seeing in the bible is different. Maybe because i am not reading meaning into singular verses like i use to? but reading everything nd making sure there are no contradictions.

Stupedinluv:
nawa o. Thats what i thought too but what i am seeing in the bible is different. Maybe because i am not reading meaning into singular verses like i use to? but reading everything nd making sure there are no contradictions.

Hmm. There are no contradictions in the Bible, one will see, if s/he studies the Bible prayerfully with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is its own concordance. What you read in one place might be explained in another place.

Just invite the Holy Spirit whenever you want to read the Bible and He will make all things clear to you.

Some people be reading the bible from the back. LOL. smh!

The idea of freewill has always been from the pages of Adam, in order not to pass the blame on to God for man's supposed fall. But we are trying to help God in the case of Freewill. Whoever said he's not capable of taking responsibility? He created stuff that didn't work right and we blame the creation, really? Since the history of a creator and a creation, when did faulty design start to be the responsibility of the creation?

Blame the pot for the crack, leave the potter out.
Blame the tree for bad fruit, leave the seed out.
Blame the tower for poor strength, leave the builder out.

It's unjust.

The idea of freewill is a hoax. Take it or leave it, it's all illusive. God on the other hand is not trying to be helped, neither has he lost control over his creation. All things work according to his planned purpose. All for his glory. We don't need to pick and choose for him. He's God and in His absolute sense(s). We need to stop being responsible for Him with the idea that is FREEWILL.

Stupedinluv:
But the bible says he wills those who accept? Read it again

John 1:13 follows vs 12 where it had said as many that received Him were given power to become the sons of God. Hence 13 further reveals how that sonship came about after faith namely being born of God. Study that verse in the Amplified version.

DoctorAlien:


Hmm. There are no contradictions in the Bible, one will see, if s/he studies the Bible prayerfully with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is its own concordance. What you read in one place might be explained in another place.

Just invite the Holy Spirit whenever you want to read the Bible and He will make all things clear to you.

Okay thanks. But i hope you dont mind me asking you what Jesus meant when he told his disciples that they didnt choose him but he chose them?

(Lets focus on the new testament, since thats where we have the clearest meaning of salvation and how it comes about)

Again, John 1:13 expressely said, those who were born of the spirit were not born of the will of man but of God. Was that a mistake because vs 12 said 'those who receive him...'? How do you interpret those verses without ruling out God's will?

Scholar8200:
John 1:13 follows vs 12 where it had said as many that received Him were given power to become the sons of God. Hence 13 further reveals how that sonship came about after faith namely being born of God. Study that verse in the Amplified version.

Whats wrong with studying with my own version, king James? You know its more reliable?

vs12" But as many as received him to them he gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

vs13 " Which were^^^ (those in verse 12, who received him) were born, not of blood (not talking of natural birth) nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD"

Born of God! Thats what i am getting from reading this. Honestly, i think people get born again by the power and will of God not theirs.

Prior to this remember i believed in free will?

Stupedinluv:
Whats wrong with studying with my own version, king James? You know its more reliable?

vs12" But as many as received him to them he gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

vs13 " Which were^^^ (those in verse 12, who received him) were born, not of blood (not talking of natural birth) nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD"

Born of God! Thats what i am getting from reading this. Honestly, i think people get born again by the power and will of God not theirs.

Prior to this remember i believed in free will?

No problem, consider this:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:13

Now were they born before they believed on His Name or after? Of course it's after they believed! Meaning This passage isnt talking of receiving Him or not, rather it talks of the second birth being of God, experienced by those that receive Him by believing on His Name!

Now let's consider this:

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelations 22:17

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

It will be wrong to indirectly claim that God qualified that blanket word, "whosoever"! Afterall it says HE loved the World (not a pre-selected few) and for the same World He gave His Son!

Sis, there are no fine prints in God's offer!

I mean for the holyspirit to state that man's will or flesh isnt involved in his spiritual birth, doesnt that speak of foreknowing that some christians in future (which is now) will want to ascribe salvation to their willing power instead of God's thereby taking some of the glory of salvation?

The Spirit of God is wise and all knowing

DoctorAlien:


Hmm.There are no contradictions in the Bible, one will see, if s/he studies the Bible prayerfully with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is its own concordance. What you read in one place might be explained in another place.

do you really vouch for this?
That there are no contradictions in the bible?
Should i create a thread for you to defend this statement?

Scholar8200:

No problem, consider this:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:13

Now were they born before they believed on His Name or after? Of course it's after they believed! Meaning This passage isnt talking of receiving Him or not, rather it talks of the second birth being of God, experienced by those that receive Him by believing on His Name!

Now let's consider this:

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelations 22:17

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

It will be wrong to indirectly claim that God qualified that blanket word, "whosoever"! Afterall it says HE loved the World (not a pre-selected few) and for the same World He gave His Son!

Sis, there are no fine prints in God's offer!

Okay thanks. But there is something about your interpretion of salvation that does not sit well me. You might have honest intentions but you can still be wrong too.

I have to be sincere, this is not enough proof of free will. This is just like someone taking only what he wants to hear and smartly avoiding many others that are discomforting.

I use to think "whosoever" means just anybody to God and man but couldnt it be that only God knows those "whosoever" and since his apostles are oblivious of them, that term had to be use.. "whosoever"

If salvation was by man's will, why then should God take all the glory! Surely some flesh must glory in his presence. Or do you think its easy to choose God? God must share his glory with some sinners then.

I will come back later with all the chapters and verses that talk of salvation originating from God.

They are many

Stupedinluv:
Whats wrong with studying with my own version, king James? You know its more reliable?

vs12" But as many as received him to them he gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

vs13 " Which were^^^ (those in verse 12, who received him) were born, not of blood (not talking of natural birth) nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD"

Born of God! Thats what i am getting from reading this. Honestly, i think people get born again by the power and will of God not theirs.

Prior to this remember i believed in free will?

My dear, they cannot understand what you're saying. I understand you... and what you're saying is very well pointed out in many scriptures. Check the following out.

But you--and it is all God's doing--are in Christ Jesus: He has become for us a wisdom which is from God, consisting of righteousness and sanctification and deliverance - 1 Cor 1:30

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in His great mercy has begotten us anew to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, - 1 Peter 1:3

Being purposed (intended; willed), from pregnancy He brought us forth by a Word (collected thought; message) of Truth and Reality – [placed] into us – to be (or: to continuously exist being) a specific firstfruit of His created beings (or: of the effects of His act of creating; or: from the results of the creation which is Himself)- James 1:18

See... let no man fool you with the idea that is FREEWILL. It's mere a HOAX! The only person that ever had a Choice was GOD, and he has CHOSEN "You have not Chosen me, It is I who CHOSE You". And God is no respecter of persons, he isn't partial, hence, He chose the WORLD (1 Cor 5:14-21).

Let no Man fool you.


Therefore, as it is written: "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord." - 1 Cor 1:31

You can accept God, that is Faith. You can also acknowledge God and that is Hope. Free is Go, Fly or Stay if you wish. This is Life. Will is do, act, interact and move. This is also Life. So Free Will is living, ie, acting, interacting and moving without Fear or Favour, but in Faith and Hope that God is your Rock and Shield and your Shelter even though you move in the Shadow of Death.

Stupedinluv:


Okay thanks. But there is something about your interpretion of salvation that does not sit well me. You might have honest intentions but you can still be wrong too.

I have to be sincere, this is not enough proof of free will. This is just like someone taking only what he wants to hear and smartly avoiding many others that are discomforting.

I use to think "whosoever" means just anybody to God and man but couldnt it be that only God knows those "whosoever" and since his apostles are oblivious of them, that term had to be use.. "whosoever"

If salvation was by man's will, why then should God take all the glory! Surely some flesh must glory in his presence. Or do you think its easy to choose God? God must share his glory with some sinners then.

I will come back later with all the chapters and verses that talk of salvation originating from God.

They are many

I never implied that man gets saved by an exercise of the will!!!(Christ paid it all) but the Gospel call to repent and believe, without which NO ONE can be saved, appeals to the will!!! God's OFFER of salvation must be received and the call is to all!!!







Else was this inspired:


For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 timothy 2: 3,4

HE wills that ALL MEN be saved!

orunto27:
You can accept God, that is Faith. You can also acknowledge God and that is Hope. Free is Go, Fly or Stay if you wish. This is Life. Will is do, act, interact and move. This is also Life. So Free Will is living, ie, acting, interacting and moving without Fear or Favour, but in Faith and Hope that God is your Rock and Shield and your Shelter even though you move in the Shadow of Death.

You have spoken well, but do you know the poets at Athens, whom Paul quoted, said "in him we live, move and have our Being". All living is lived in God. Your life is not your own. The only valid faith, there is, is God's faith. The only valid acceptance is God accepting you in his beloved (nothing you did made this happen). It is God who keeps and has kept you in Him.

Yes. This is The "ODU" that makes Ifa The Trustee of Oduduwa in Olodumare. The Greek and the Yoruba Mythologies are very similar. This is why we are asking Pope Francis to stop slandering The Bible.

Stupedinluv:
Okay thanks. But i hope you dont mind me asking you what Jesus meant when he told his disciples that they didnt choose him but he chose them?

(Lets focus on the new testament, since thats where we have the clearest meaning of salvation and how it comes about)

Again, John 1:13 expressely said, those who were born of the spirit were not born of the will of man but of God. Was that a mistake because vs 12 said 'those who receive him...'? How do you interpret those verses without ruling out God's will?

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit..." Jn. 15:16. This verse is reminiscent of Israel. GOD chose them to bring forth fruit of obedience so that the gentiles can learn from them and glorify GOD. But we know that they chose not to.

Jesus simply tells His disciples that He was the one that chose them to represent Him. Those who believe in Him are said to be born of GOD.

raphieMontella:
do you really vouch for this? That there are no contradictions in the bible? Should i create a thread for you to defend this statement?

Yes. Do.

Stupedinluv:
I mean for the holyspirit to state that man's will or flesh isnt involved in his spiritual birth, doesnt that speak of foreknowing that some christians in future (which is now) will want to ascribe salvation to their willing power instead of God's thereby taking some of the glory of salvation?

The Spirit of God is wise and all knowing

You're getting it all wrong. Now look at it: Jn. 1:12 say if any man believe in GOD, he is given power to become a son of GOD. Now, a son doesn't fall from the air: he has to be born. And GOD acknowledges that in verse 13. However, that particular person is said to be born of GOD.

Sonship to GOD is not what carnal birth can impart, nor something one can achieve on his own. You believe in GOD, and you are reborn: this time not according to the will of man but of GOD.

Compare these things with 1 Jn. 3:9; Psa. 2:7.

Stupedinluv,

It is also pertinent to clarify what freewill is and what it is not.

Freewill is the ability to choose between options. Pursuant to our discussion, freewill is the ability to choose to be saved. Freewill is not the ability to be saved.

For example, your parents ask you "do you want to go to the university?" There are two choices: either you say yes or you say no. However, that you said yes does not mean that you're the one to get yourself through the university. Your parents are the ones to sponsor you. So you see, saying "yes" makes your parents swing into the action of making sure you get through the university, albeit with your own cooperation(because if you disobey the school, you can be rusticated).

There are two choices before all men(2 Pet. 3:9): being saved and being lost. If you say "yes" to GOD by believing in Jesus Christ, GOD swings into the action of making sure you are saved by cleansing and adopting you into His family. You can then be said to be born of GOD.(Jn. 1:13).

pr0blem:


My dear, they cannot understand what you're saying. I understand you... and what you're saying is very well pointed out in many scriptures. Check the following out.

But you--and it is all God's doing--are in Christ Jesus: He has become for us a wisdom which is from God, consisting of righteousness and sanctification and deliverance - 1 Cor 1:30

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in His great mercy has begotten us anew to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, - 1 Peter 1:3

Being purposed (intended; willed), from pregnancy He brought us forth by a Word (collected thought; message) of Truth and Reality – [placed] into us – to be (or: to continuously exist being) a specific firstfruit of His created beings (or: of the effects of His act of creating; or: from the results of the creation which is Himself)- James 1:18

See... let no man fool you with the idea that is FREEWILL. It's mere a HOAX! The only person that ever had a Choice was GOD, and he has CHOSEN "You have not Chosen me, It is I who CHOSE You". And God is no respecter of persons, he isn't partial, hence, He chose the WORLD (1 Cor 5:14-21).

Let no Man fool you.


Therefore, as it is written: "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord." - 1 Cor 1:31

Thanks so much. Pls can you quote more bible verses and chapters that support your stance (i have limited time now). I need to be sure of this.

Meanwhile, what do you mean by God is not partial but has chosen the world?

DoctorAlien:
Stupedinluv,

It is also pertinent to clarify what freewill is and what it is not.

Freewill is the ability to choose between options. Pursuant to our discussion, freewill is the ability to choose to be saved. Freewill is not the ability to be saved.

OK.

For example, your parents ask you "do you want to go to the university?" There are two choices: either you say yes or you say no. However, that you said yes does not mean that you're the one to get yourself through the university. Your parents are the ones to sponsor you. So you see, saying "yes" makes your parents swing into the action of making sure you get through the university, albeit with your own cooperation(because if you disobey the school, you can be rusticated).

Analogy sounds fly but falls flats when placed side by side with Spiritual standards and our default nature.

Your example, yes child is not limited to any particular choice but salvation is different huh.You have a default nature that chooses death over life everytime. Consider this,

And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
Wherein in time past you walked according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience
Among whom we all had our conversation with in time past in the lust of our flesh, fulfiling the desire of the flesh, of our mind and were by nature children of wrath.
But God....etc Eph 2:1-

There are two choices before all men(2 Pet. 3:9): being saved and being lost. If you say "yes" to GOD by believing in Jesus Christ, GOD swings into the action of making sure you are saved by cleansing and adopting you into His family. You can then be said to be born of GOD.(Jn. 1:13).

Good point. But

DoctorAlien:


You're getting it all wrong. Now look at it: Jn. 1:12 say if any man believe in GOD, he is given power to become a son of GOD. Now, a son doesn't fall from the air: he has to be born. And GOD acknowledges that in verse 13. However, that particular person is said to be born of GOD.

Sonship to GOD is not what carnal birth can impart, nor something one can achieve on his own. You believe in GOD, and you are reborn: this time not according to the will of man but of GOD.

Compare these things with 1 Jn. 3:9; Psa. 2:7.

Lol Are you saying people believe before they are born? Is believing not a spiritual fruit or something of such?

Hmmm.

PrOblem, pls which one comes first: Get birthed first and then believe or believe first and be born. Later sounds ridiculous now that i think of it.

Stupedinluv:

Lol Are you saying people believe before they are born? Is believing not a spiritual fruit or something of such?

Hmmm.

PrOblem, pls which one comes first: Get birthed first and then believe or believe first and be born. Later sounds ridiculous now that i think of it.

The latter, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, is the case.

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that GOD hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Belief in Jesus is prerequisite to obtaining salvation and being identified as a child of GOD. You cannot claim to be a child of GOD if you don't believe in Jesus Christ.

DoctorAlien:


The latter, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, is the case.

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that GOD hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Belief in Jesus is prerequisite to obtaining salvation and being identified as a child of GOD. You cannot claim to be a child of GOD if you don't believe in Jesus Christ.

Very good verses and points you have.

But there is something about Romans 10:14 and 17, 20

vs 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Hearing ---> believing----> calling

Faith/Belief comes from hearing.

vs 17 so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

We believe to be saved but we cant believe if faith does not come on hearing the word. You see? so believe/faith is not a product of our will/choice but a product of God's word. God sends faith through his word to us to believe and be saved not decide whether to accept it or not. Abi prOblem?

vs 20 But Esias is very bold and said, i was found of them that sought me not, i was made unto them that ask me not

How can someone (a gentile) find someone he wasnt looking for. Kinda mysterious you dont think?

Stupedinluv,

When you consider that not everybody who hears the gospel believes and accepts it, you'll then understand that we have a choice to be saved.

Right, belief can only come when one has heard the word of GOD. This is a call to us Christians to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ as far as we can by the help of the Holy Spirit, so that everybody will hear it. And as many as do believe, to them is given the power to become children of GOD.

DoctorAlien:
Stupedinluv,

When you consider that not everybody who hears the gospel believes and accepts it, you'll then understand that we have a choice to be saved.

No, i will then understand that faith does not come to everyone.

Right, belief can only come when one has heard the word of GOD. This is a call to us Christians to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ as far as we can by the help of the Holy Spirit, so that everybody will hear it. And as many as do believe, to them is given the power to become children of GOD.

I will humbly pass this for now