Please consider this parable reported in (Mathew 21: 33-46)(Mark 12: 1-12)(Luke 20: 9-19)

There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet [5]

I sense that this parable was actually told by Jesus because it is the pure and unadulterated Truth. Like all parables of Jesus, there is so much one can learn from it. It contains the eternal Truth; it is the entire gospel displayed in such a simple and pictorial manner that anybody can relate to it. I doubt if a human being can exhaust all the knowledge hidden in these parables. Personally, I have experienced that the more I mature spiritually, the more I see in these parables. Jesus is indeed the greatest teacher ever lived!

I will share my experiencing of this parable:

There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

The householder mentioned in the above is the ALMIGHTY Himself, God the Father.
The vineyard that He planted is creation, subsequent creation, or the earth to be more precise. The winepress represents the abundance of the earth. The earth through nature gives its entire inhabitants everything that they need to thrive, but like a winepress one has to work in order to utilize and enjoy the gifts of the earth. The earth barely gives us wine(good things) already made, we have to work on it to earn its riches. Just like one has to work or press the fruits with the wine press before he can make wine. This coincides with what we have been told in another scripture: "Increase and multiply and replenish the earth" which simply means set to work and utilize the gifts that lie hidden in the earth, and also the gifts that lie hidden in our spirits. Only when we utilize these gifts in our spirits, our spiritual abilities, can our spirits grow(increase) and bring spiritual blessings to the earth(replenish the earth). Unfortunately, people think that this commandment is only directed towards physical propagation.

The tower is also another gift that this gracious householder gave. It represents the ability to communicate to distant places. Thus in this vineyard inhabitants are not left to themselves, with the tower they can see what is approaching them and with it they can also send a message across to distant countries, just like the ancients used to do with watch towers, light towers or light houses. In another translation of the verse the translator used the word: "watchtower" instead just "tower". Through this gift of the Tower the inhabitants of this vineyard can communicate with the householder.  This, to me, is a representation of the fact that the creator did not leave us alone, through his laws which is hein into creation from the beginning, we can communicate with him. We can also send Him our volitions in times of need through prayer.

The husbandmen are we human spirits. From this Parable we learn that the vine yard(subsequent Creation) is lent to us. Actually it is not ours and neither is it our home, we are merely guests, or laborers in the vineyard lent to us. It is our duty to increase and multiply and replenish this vineyard that is most graciously and generously given to us. Just as farmers are given a yard to plant and cultivate. From the fruits of their labor in the farm they can earn a good living, they are also obliged to pay the owner of the yard from their profits. The same way, the earth is lent to us human spirits; from our labor(experiences) on earth we earn a living (achieve spiritual maturity) but we are also obliged to pay the Creator for this most generous gift to experience. In this case, all that the creator requires as fee from us is our spiritual activity. Therefore we cannot stand still spiritually, the result of this spiritual activity also ennobles the earth(keeps the vineyard in order). But in this we failed.

"And went into a far country"

From this picture of the householder being in a far country, we can deduce that although the creator is omnipresent, He lives in a far country. Thus the ALMIGHY Creator dwells far above creation. God himself is not inside creation which only a work of God. Like an artist stands beside his works so does the creator stand above creation which can not carry or contain Him in His entirety. How then is God omnipresent? His Omnipresence lies in His ability to oversee all in creation through His laws which is hein in all parts of creation. Thus He is reachable from any part of creation; therein lies His omnipresence.

And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

Like I said earlier, we human spirits failed in yielding spiritual fruits. Rather than making spiritual movement, the effect of which will not only benefit us but ennoble subsequent creation, we made only intellectual and technological movement with the aim of personal gain. Thus rather than yeilding the fruits of the spirit-- love, beauty and peace, we yeilded rotten fruits-- lust, hate, envy, greed, and etc. Such fruits that poisoned not only us, but also subsequent creation, the vineyard most graciously given to us. Therefore like a tenant who reused to pay rent when it was due and who destroyed the rented house, the owner of the house sent us messengers to collect the rent from us and teach us how to live more responsibly. These messengers are the prophets that the ALMIGHTY send to us.

And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

And we human spirits maltreated the prophets sent to us; we killed some, beat some, and stoned some. These prophets, i.e. Elijah, Moses, Isaiah, John the Baptist, all received bad treatment from we human spirits. Thus we beat them, rob them and send them back without paying our rent that was already past due. Yet the AlMIGHTY out of His love would not let us parish in the sultry and poisoned atmosphere that we created for ourselves, therefore He kept sending us his servants to call us to repentance. Yet we refused to bear fruits of repentance.

But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

But when we(mankind) were about about to perish completely from the poison of their rotten fruits, the ALMIGTHY sent us His son, His own flesh and blood. This clears the puzzle whether Jesus was just a prophet or just a man sent by God. In this parable we see that Jesus is something that the previous messengers of God are not. He is God's own son, His flesh and blood. This is a pictorial rendering of the fact that Jesus is God incarnate. Like I said earlier, God in His entirety cannot descend into creation. If so how then is Jesus God incarnate? Jesus is a part of God and not God in His entirety. God severed a part of himself and sent it to earth and incarnated it in a physical body of flesh and bone. Thus "and the word was made flesh and dwelled among us." Thus Jesus innermost core is Devine(God) as opposed to all other prophets whose innermost core is Spirit.
In this parable we also see the reason why Jesus was sent. So many people have asked the question: "why would God send His innocent son to earth to be killed." This parable answers the preceding question. Jesus was not sent to be killed or murdered. Murder or the killing of innocent people is a sin and never permitted by God who is Living Justice Himself. God’s intention for sending Jesus was for mankind to "reverence my son" For mankind to listen and obey Jesus who brought them Divine light, and pay up their overdue rent(bear spiritual fruits). Jesus’ words points clearly to mankind how to retrace their steps and do the right thing. Jesus not only told mankind, He also demonstrated to them how to bear spiritual fruits. He gave strength to the weak, healed the sick, visited the poor, forgive the repented ones, He gave freely to mankind that which flowed from His Divine heart. But rather than accepting these gracious gifts with jubilation and thankfulness to the Creator, mankind seized Jesus and killed him on a cross in Calvary.

"and let us seize on his inheritance"

This is a pictorial depiction of how mankind wanted to seized the kingdom of God. The inheritance of Jesus is the TRUTH which comes from God, Jesus being a part of God; He is a bearer of the TRUTH. But mankind on earth does not like this Devine TRUTH which is pure and unadulterated, so mankind seized it and made it suitable form them. They misrepresented the TRUTH in their religions which serves them rather than God. Making a business from religions and falsifying the TRUTH to attract religious followers, mankind, especially leaders and representatives of earthly religions seized Jesus inheritance and made it their own.

When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

Who is this lord of the vineyard. It is easy assume that it is the owner of the vineyard. But at the beginning of the parable, the owner was called a householder: " There was a certain householder" Thus the hastily assumption that the householder is the lord of the vineyard may not be correct. Who then is the Lord of the vineyard? For him to be called lord, he must be part owner of sole owner of the vineyard. But we already know that the owner of the vineyard is the householder. The only possibility that remains is that this "Lord of the vineyard" is a part owner of the vineyard. To be a part owner, he is either a son or a relative. It is my conviction that this "Lord of the vineyard" is a son of the householder. Thus the householder has two sons, the one sent to receive fruits from the husbandmen, and the one called "the Lord of the vineyard". It is my conviction that this "the Lord of the vineyard" is the Holy Spirit who like Jesus is also a son(part) of God. It is Him who will visit the vineyard(the earth) in the end to judge the earth. He is the one who is called the "son of man." He is the one who, in other verses is called "the ruler of the world" "the Spirit of Truth", or "the comforter". Consider that the expresion "Ruler of the world" is the same as the expression "Lord of the vineyard" if we understand the "world" and "vineyard" to mean the same thing--Creation. He is called "the ruler of the world" or "the Lord of the vineyard" because He is the part of God through which creation came into being; thus God created the worlds, including the vineyard, through Him, thus He his the lord of the vineyard. The Holy Spirit(Immanuel) severed from God to create the worlds; Just as later Jesus severed from God to save the world(the earth) or to demand the fruits of the laborers in the vineyard. A part of this Holy Spirit is anchored at the highest heights in creation, in the highest plane of the primordial spiritual, and from thence He rules the worlds. It was Him who was described by the writer of the book of revelation as "the one who sits on the throne," while Jesus is described in the book of revelation as "the lamb who was slain."

They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

It is understandable that when the "son of man" comes, His judgment will hit these wicked husbandmen very severely for the injustice they have done on the prophets of God and the for the killing of the son of God. The false and wicked structure set up by mankind shall collapse in the radiation of the son of man. He will bring everything to fulfillment and will balance every check; He shall demand payment from all the tenants that owe His father. Nothing will be able to hide from him. By being on earth, His radiation will speed up everything and shatter all the walls that hides evil. All that is dead(all that is without movement) shall be awakened to this judgment. Perhaps we already live in this era; it is left for each individual to look around him and judge the world happenings with his/her intuition. After this great purification only those that have yielded good fruits shall remain on earth. Only those that are willing to pay their rent and take good care of the vineyard shall be allowed to live on earth. The rest will no longer be permitted to live on earth. Hence: "he will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."
and hence: "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

[i]Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. [/i]

The stone that the builder refused is Jesus or the TRUTH that He brought to the world. Mankind on earth refused to use this stone(The TRUTH) to build the fabric of their lives. Rather mankind made vanity the building stone of their lives. But this rejected stone(The Truth) will be the basses of life on earth after the purification. After the purification of the earth, and in the millennium the Truth will be the fabric of the lives of those allowed to still exist. Thus the rejected Stone Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the father will rule the earth during the millennium. But this does not necessarily mean that will live physically on earth, it only means that the earth will also become the kingdom of God where only the Truth, Purity, Love, and Justice rains.  Then will the Lords prayer be fulfilled, " Thy Kingdom come." During this time, men on earth will be servants of God and not servants of themselves. During the millennium, the will of mankind will no longer rule in subsequent creation, only the will of God will rule. The radiations of the son of man will be so much intensified in subsequent creation that all the laws of creation will speed up in their activity. Then Karma will be instantaneous; if one commits a sin, he/she will receive the karma right away. Anybody that will seek to oppose the laws of God by living in sin will be severely struck by the laws of reciprocal action till such a one bends. Those that will not bend will surley be broken to pieces or grind to dust. Hence: "And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."
This way mankind will learn to adjust to the will of God. This instantaneous release of reciprocal action(karma) is already happening today. But it will get bigger in the future.

This is what my spirit was able to draw from the parable of the wicked husbandman. You are welcome to agree or disagree with me. You are also welcome to shear your own insight. The purpose of this thread is the invoke thoughts on the reason why God sent Jesus to the earth.

Sorry if it's too long, and thanks for reading.

Just-Cool -

So refreshing as always. I agree with your reading of the parable completely.

Well. . . Except for one part. Your interpretation of the "Lord of the Vineyard" as referring to Parsifal/ Abdrushin.

This is surely reading too much into the text. Because the truth is that the Bible is not Further Mathematics, and the mere fact that different terms were used to describe the owner of the vineyard does not necessarily mean that two different persons were being referred to.

I see that you seize even the slightest oppurtunity to infer that Abd Rushin is the Son of Man. This is singularly the most difficult teaching to accept within the Grail Message, and your interpretation seeks to butress that strange claim. . .

In this instance, it is too much of a stretch. For the simple reason that if your logic were to be followed, then since Jesus refers to himself as "the lamb", "the son of God", "the way, truth and life", "the light of the world" . . . we can conclude that he was with each description referring to a different entity/ personage Tomorrow, Sat Guru Maharaji may claim that one of these terms actually referred to him!

I loved the Grail Message, i still love it, it answered virtually all my questions about life and existence.

Till this day, i only hold back from becoming an adherent on account of the claims as to the identity of the Authour. Let's face, it he more or less equated himself with God. This, and its endorsement of the very dubious Trinity Doctrine, to my mind, are the archilles-heels of the Message.

Cheers and thanks for sharing.

@Deep Sight
Thanks for your contribution. You made some very bold statements towards the end of your post and you accused me of what I did not write in my post. Show me in my post where I said anything about Abd-ru-shin, and Parsifal. I called Imanuel the son of man and that is as far as I went in post.

Imanuel(Emmanuel) is the son of man whom Jesus spoke about. He is the third person in the trinity. He is the Holy Spirit. This is all I have ever said in this forum, and this is what I have been able to draw from the Grail Message.

Any responsibility arising from for the further declarations that you made is not mine.


About not agreeing with my interpretation of the "Lord of the Vineyard." You are very welcome to disagree with me. What I posted was my experiencing of that parable, you are welcome to have a different experiencing of the parable. It is very okay to disagree with me; I have no problems with that.

Thanks and remain blessed.

Justcool!

It is a process!

And i demand exacting honesty, from you, in accordance with what i know to be your sure convictions!

Before we proceed:

Deny that:

1. Parsifal = Abdrushin (on earth, for he still remained in the Grail Castle at the summit while Abdrushin was on Earth)

2. Imanuel = Parsifal

3. Imanuel came from the unsubstantiate core of God, and thus is part-God at least, and thus by conclusion that by advancing the Trinity Doctrine. . .

Then Abdrushin = God.

Yes?

@Deep Sight

I wish not be dragged into things, you are dragging me.
My convictions about the personality of Abd-ru-shin stems my personal experiencing, which I will not share here. It is very personal.

Abd-ru-shin never said that He was equal to God. He served God by writing the Grail Message, in which He gave all the glory to God. He never wished to be worshiped or to be considered equal to God. He made it clear in His message that only God should be worshiped and prayed to.

At the end of the lecture, "cult," Abd-ru-shin wrote:
"But God alone is Holy!"

This is all I can say to you.

Thanks and remain blessed

Justcool -

I am sorry if i seem aggressive about this subject.

This arises from the fact that the claim concerning his divinity virtually robbed me of the profound joy that i experienced upon reading the Grail Message. You see, i am terribly suspicious of ALL dogma that seeks to ascribe divinity to ANY human being who has walked upon this earth. This is because i am all too aware of the tendency of mankind to deify spiritual leaders. Jesus never even once called himself God, and yet most of the Christian world today beleives him to be God, as per the Trinity Doctrine, which he did not teach. The Buddha, who was entirely silent on the question of ANY deity, is today himself worshipped as God of some sort in many parts of the Orient. Not to speak of the claims of our own Sat Guru Maharaji, to being the reincarnated christ? Or Olumba Olumba Obu, who is advertised as "the Alpha and Omega". . .

My fears on the deification of humans springs only from my intense reverence for the Godhead. . .

For the sake of on-lookers, i would not want you to appear as though you are evading the questions. It seems that you deliberately did not mention the names of Abd-Rushin or Parsifal in your First Post, because you were aware that it would be most unpalatable to the average reader to realise that you were declaring Abd-Rushin to be the Son of Man, as taught by the Grail Message.

You are fully aware that Parsifal's radiation coalesced into Adb-Rushin for his journey through the worlds, and you are fully aware that it was this same person you were refering to when you spoke of the "Lord of the Vineyard". . . but you deliberately refused to mention his name, why?

Even when i put the names to you, you still shrugged and stated that you never mentioned those names! Why are you so terribly desperate to avoid stating boldly that Adb Rushin is the son of man? And the "Lord of the Vineyard"? After all, he is said to sit atop the whole creation, and is "God with us"?

I need you to objectively respond to these -

Deep Sight:


In this instance, it is too much of a stretch. For the simple reason that if your logic were to be followed, then since Jesus refers to himself as "the lamb", "the son of God", "the way, truth and life", "the light of the world" . . . we can conclude that he was with each description referring to a different entity/ personage

And more importantly, this - (note the emboldened parts in red please)

Deep Sight:


Deny that:

1. Parsifal = Abdrushin (on earth, for he still remained in the Grail Castle at the summit while Abdrushin was on Earth)

2. Imanuel = Parsifal

3. Imanuel came from the unsubstantiate core of God, and thus is part-God at least, and thus by conclusion that by advancing the Trinity Doctrine. . .

Then Abdrushin = God.

Yes?

@Deep Sight
I am sorry I cannot continue to talk about Abd-ru-shin concerning the issues you raised. Abd-ru-shin wished that readers of His Grail Message must be willing to examine the matter(The Message and not Abd-ru-shin) objectively. If you have any questions about the Grail Message, I will happily help as much as I can. But to inquire about Abd-ru-shin and His personality in the manner that you are doing is wrong. In no way did He praise or glorify Himself in the message, He gave all the Glory to God and Jesus the son of God; therefore it will be very unfair for us to compare Him with people who deitify themselves.

Please Kindly desist from asking me such questions. Hencefort I will not respond to them.

Lets keep to the parable of the wicked husbandmen, which is the theme of this thread.

As always, thanks and I wish you the best.

^^^ Justcool, I am gravely dissapointed.

I will respect your request and ask no further questions, as you appear uncomfortable with the subject. But before i go i will make a few remarks.

   1. I have followed your past posts with avid interest, and the way in which you have been able to enlighten others on parts of the Message has struck me as very useful. I was particularly struck, in my quest to come to an understanding of his identity, in a particular thread where you explained to Pastor AIO and others the significance of the world events and world wars which occured during Abd Rushin's lifetime. That helped me alot, and i must admit i was seriously hoping you would do as much justice to my questions as you did to the questions on that thread. I must also admit i am somewhat saddened and embarrased at the way you have brushed me off.

  2. Please note that i did not ferret the issue of Abd Rushin's identity out of thin air. You have talked about focusing on the interpretation of the parable, but you seem to have forgotten that it was your interpretation of who "the Lord of the Vineyard" is, that raised my concerns. Thus, i was not speaking out of context.

  3. The manner in which you have shut down discussion on my concerns, i am very sorry to say, cuts the impression that there are "secret areas" within the Message or better put "esoteric topics" on which discussion is prohibited. I have read the Message, and i am aware that no such "prohibited areas" exist, but i advise you that the way you shut down the discussion will give the erroneous impression to on-lookers that there are secret things which you do not want to reveal. That will only aid the impression that some people have of the grail movement as a secret cult of some sort, which is certainly a wrong perception.

  4. Finally, you have unwittingly painted a picture of yourself as very intolerant of any open discussion which seems to question your convictions.

Take care, and thanks nonetheless.

@Deep Sight
My dear friend, I didn't intend to brush you up. I didn't even know that I did that so don't take it that way. I am genuinely sorry for disappointing you, also I am sorry if I have said anything to offend you. It wasn't intended.

I am not intolerant about people challenging my convictions. You are welcome to do that anyday, as long as you keep it within the boundaries of my conviction. My conviction is that the Grail Message is the Truth, the book explains the truth about God. You are welcome to question or challenge this anytime. But when you go beyond God and the message and start inquering personalities then I will back away. 

I will give you a simple analogy. I once took an exam in the university where we were not allowed put our names on the exam papers, rather we were given numbers. After taking the exam, I went inquired why the department chose to do that. They told me that they don't want favoritism or racism to interfere with the grading of the papers. They found out that students get fairer review of their papers when the reviewer or the grader does not know them or anything about them. This way the grader judges the paper just based on the contents which is the only thing grading papers should be all about.

Thus one must be able to examine a message and not the bringer. Gold is gold even in the hands of a beggar. I wish not for us to go into inquiring about Abd-ru-shin because this might interior with your judgement or assessment of the message. Remember most of the Jews that rejected Jesus did so just because He was a carpenter. I know somebody who wouldn't examine the message just because Abr-ru-shin was a German.

If your seeking in truly in enerst, then dear friend, lets deal with the message and not the bringer. Afterall Abd-ru-shin brought the Message and not Himself.

Do you spend time seeking to know your post-man rather accepting your mail and reading it? Afterall the post-man is just a messenger.

I hope you understand what I mean. I don't wish to brush you off. I just felt that you are approaching the issue from a wrong perspective.

Thanks

The fact there is that there will always remain some facts that will be unknown by some 'uninitiated ones'. Do you think anyother person knows the origin of jesus apart from the disciples? Do you think a human spirit with the best knowledge can reveal one-hundredth of what the author reveals in the message? There're still lots for you to learn and discover, the message is just the foundation.

The author admonishes us that we must not place him above the message? What does that implies? Never to equate him to HE that sent him. What else do you need again?

justcool:

@Deep Sight
My dear friend, I didn't intend to brush you up. I didn't even know that I did that so don't take it that way. I am genuinely sorry for disappointing you, also I am sorry if I have said anything to offend you. It wasn't intended.

I am not intolerant about people challenging my convictions. You are welcome to do that anyday, as long as you keep it within the boundaries of my conviction. My conviction is that the Grail Message is the Truth, the book explains the truth about God. You are welcome to question or challenge this anytime. But when you go beyond God and the message and start inquering personalities then I will back away.

I will give you a simple analogy. I once took an exam in the university where we were not allowed put our names on the exam papers, rather we were given numbers. After taking the exam, I went inquired why the department chose to do that. They told me that they don't want favoritism or racism to interfere with the grading of the papers. They found out that students get fairer review of their papers when the reviewer or the grader does not know them or anything about them. This way the grader judges the paper just based on the contents which is the only thing grading papers should be all about.

Thus one must be able to examine a message and not the bringer. Gold is gold even in the hands of a beggar. I wish not for us to go into inquiring about Abd-ru-shin because this might interior with your judgement or assessment of the message. Remember most of the Jews that rejected Jesus did so just because He was a carpenter. I know somebody who wouldn't examine the message just because Abr-ru-shin was a German.

If your seeking in truly in enerst, then dear friend, lets deal with the message and not the bringer. Afterall Abd-ru-shin brought the Message and not Himself.

Do you spend time seeking to know your post-man rather accepting your mail and reading it? Afterall the post-man is just a messenger.

I hope you understand what I mean. I don't wish to brush you off. I just felt that you are approaching the issue from a wrong perspective.

Thanks

Thank you Justcool. Well, i suppose it is fair to avert my gaze from the Messenger as you have said.

Going back to the parable. For me it is a very clear indication that the crucifixion was not the will of God. It has always seemed to me bizzarre that people would accept this as the will of God and in fact translate it into the foundation for "salvation".

It seems to me that salvation, or transitting peacefully to a higher realm as opposed to a lower realm rests upona pure conscience and a spirit filled with love. It also seems to me that this has always been the case from time immemorial, and that God neither does, nor can change the rules as HE goes along. I do not perceive the Divine GODHEAD to be so trivial as to shift the goal posts from time to time.

The prayer in Gethsemane makes this abundantly obvious. It never ceases to amaze me that people overlook such clear pointers, and deliberately read them to suit established dogma.

superstition vs superstition.

na who superstition strong pass?

Coming soon to a theater near u

Deep Sight:

Thank you Justcool. Well, i suppose it is fair to avert my gaze from the Messenger as you have said.

Going back to the parable. For me it is a very clear indication that the crucifixion was not the will of God. It has always seemed to me bizzarre that people would accept this as the will of God and in fact translate it into the foundation for "salvation".

It seems to me that salvation, or transitting peacefully to a higher realm as opposed to a lower realm rests upona pure conscience and a spirit filled with love. It also seems to me that this has always been the case from time immemorial, and that God neither does, nor can change the rules as HE goes along. I do not perceive the Divine GODHEAD to be so trivial as to shift the goal posts from time to time.

The prayer in Gethsemane makes this abundantly obvious. It never ceases to amaze me that people overlook such clear pointers, and deliberately read them to suit established dogma.

@ Deep Sight
Very wise input.
It is really strange to that people accept such false doctrines, which contradicts very sense of justice. How can God who is Justice and Love send His beloved son to be killed for mankind? Does God love mankind more than Jesus?

By preaching that God sacrificed Jesus to save mankind, they reduce the ALMIGHTY God to the level of ritualists. I remember one man in my town who was rumored to belong to a cult, there was rumored that the cult members sacrifice their offsprings in ritual for money. One day my father asked the man if it was true that they do ritual sacrifice of their children. The man laughed and said to my father, "Didn't your God not sacrifice His son to save mankind?"
It was a joke and my father laughed, but for the rest of my father's life he kept thinking about that notion that God sacrificed Jesus. Towards the end of his life, he confided in me that he no longer believed that it was God's intention for Jesus to be killed. But he was already too engraved in the church to publicly declare this, so he said it to me in secret. We condem ritualists for doing this evil(human sacrifice), yet we ascribe the same evil act to God and still say that God is righteous. This shows the inconsistency of these false doctrines.

Rather than working on themselves and yielding spiritual fruits, manking accepted the false doctrine that Jesus have paid for their sins, and that all they need to do is believe in this alleged sacrifice. This is making salvation a matter of safe conduct. This I believe is part of the reason why there is so much evil and hatred in the world today. Rather than teaching people to do good works, love others, and become righteous, they came up with the doctrine that ones good work cannot earn him/her salvation. Thereby greately reducing the importance of rigtheousness. If our righteousness is not important for our salvation, I wonder why John the baptise, Jesus and etc spent their lives on earth telling people to repent and strive towards righteous. According to the Bible Jesus said:
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Mathew 5:20)
I think it is darkness's way of keeping mankind enslaved in spiritual sleep. By telling mankind that Christ has payed for their sins; thus turning their gaze away from striving to be good. Mankind live in sin with the delusion that their faith in Christ's death has justified them from their sins. If this is true, then I wonder why Jesus said, "Whats so ever a man sows, that he must reap." Yet after reading it people still believe that as long as they put their faith in the false notion that Christ died for their sins, all their sins has been immediately taken away from them.

If it was God's intention that Jesus should be crucified, why did Jesus say, "Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing."(Luke 23:34) Why would they need forgiveness if they were doing the will of God?

Brilliant thread. Really very thought provoking.

Lovely discussion. Just cool, please connect with me on facebook. Name is Ludwig Adagio. Thanks

To be honest this Grail message adherents(J.cool&M.n)are making so much sense these days.I feel so much Truth when they speak but am a Christian.Anywaz thanks J.cool u'r really cool.

ludwigadagio:

Lovely discussion. Just cool, please connect with me on facebook. Name is Ludwig Adagio. Thanks

@ludwigadagio
Thank you so much. I am sorry I don't have a face book account; but I am thinking about one. At the moment Nairaland takes a chunk of my leisure time.

Remain blessed

Cmanforall:

To be honest this Grail message adherents(J.cool&M.n)are making so much sense these days.I feel so much Truth when they speak but am a Christian.Anywaz thanks J.cool u'r really cool.

@Cmanforall,
I am humbled by your honesty. Thank you so much and remain blessed.

justcool:

@ Deep Sight


Rather than working on themselves and yielding spiritual fruits, manking accepted the false doctrine that Jesus have paid for their sins, and that all they need to do is believe in this alleged sacrifice. This is making salvation a matter of safe conduct. This I believe is part of the reason why there is so much evil and hatred in the world today. Rather than teaching people to do good works, love others, and become righteous, they came up with the doctrine that ones good work cannot earn him/her salvation. Thereby greately reducing the importance of rigtheousness. If our righteousness is not important for our salvation, I wonder why John the baptise, Jesus and etc spent their lives on earth telling people to repent and strive towards righteous. According to the Bible Jesus said:
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Mathew 5:20)
I think it is darkness's way of keeping mankind enslaved in spiritual sleep. By telling mankind that Christ has payed for their sins; thus turning their gaze away from striving to be good. Mankind live in sin with the delusion that their faith in Christ's death has justified them from their sins. If this is true, then I wonder why Jesus said, "Whats so ever a man sows, that he must reap." Yet after reading it people still believe that as long as they put their faith in the false notion that Christ died for their sins, all their sins has been immediately taken away from them.

After accepting salvation, True Christians mortify the deeds of the flesh through the help of the Holy Spirit! They do not continue to live in sin! Christians who yield to the Holy spirit, bear the fruits of the spirit:

Galatians 5:22-23 (King James Version)

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

@ seyibrown

seyibrown:


After accepting salvation, True Christians mortify the deeds of the flesh through the help of the Holy Spirit! They do not continue to live in sin! Christians who yield to the Holy spirit, bear the fruits of the spirit:

Galatians 5:22-23 (King James Version)

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Good. One must make effort, spiritual effort, to live in accord with the Will of God, or the Laws of God; and with the help of the power of the Holy spirit the individual can make it.

But he/she must not think that he/she should no longer make spiritual effort to live in the laws of God, or that righteousness is no longer required of him. He/she must not think that Jesus, with His death on the cross, had paid for his/her sins. The repented born again must not think that he/she is now above the laws of God; for no body is above the laws of God.

Even the angels and the archangles, and even the son of God Himself still lives under the Laws of God. Adamant stands the Laws -- Whats so ever a man sows, that he must reap; nobody can ever be above this law. God will not let His innocent son Jesus reap the sins of the world, sins that He never sowed.

Even Jesus is not above the laws of God, hence it is reported in the bible that He said,

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Mathew 5:17)


Thanks

The OP is just brilliant