@ baqir go and do ur shia rituals and bidia then..prophet ask us to fast and we are going to ...and when did you shia scum bags believed in sahaba and Aisha that you are translating to Muslims what they said.. I thought you Shi'a said they all become kuffar after the death of prophet? you problems is that you shia are against any thin Islam,you don't like Quran,sahaba,hadith,scholars, what then? if you like go and die because Muslims are going to fast insha Allah

Some brothers here need wisdom and adhab when debating any subject on Islam Seems like they heard of Shi;sm not too long ago through what they see and what they are told. Anyways, be constructive next time.

Thanks albaqir but no thanks. Your submission, while I respect it, would have made sense to me had Ashura (fasting) made fard. But since it is not obligatory, then, it is really no issue. Overall your research and composition is acardemic and commendable. Always love your approach @sino

Empiree:

Thanks albaqir but no thanks. Your submission, while I respect it, would have made sense to me had Ashura (fasting) made fard. But since it is not obligatory, then, it is really no issue. Overall your research and composition is acardemic and commendable. Always love your approach @sino

Obviously there is nothing optional in Ashura fasting. It is rather an abandoned practice when Ramadan fasting has been legislated. Its like the case of facing Masjid al-Aqsa before Qibla is established. After the establishment of Qibla (Makkah), is it optional to face al-Aqsa in salat?

Lol, These jokers are still at it... I pray Allaah guides them before it's too late ...Aameen

Empiree:
Some brothers here need wisdom and adhab when debating any subject on Islam Seems like they heard of Shi;sm not too long ago through what they see and what they are told. Anyways, be constructive next time.

Thanks albaqir but no thanks. Your submission, while I respect it, would have made sense to me had Ashura (fasting) made fard. But since it is not obligatory, then, it is really no issue. Overall your research and composition is acardemic and commendable. Always love your approach @sino

Everyday is an optional day for fasting, why the focus on Ashura and attaching to it a lot of meanings while concealing the martyrdom of Imam Hussein (as), the grandson of Prophet Muhammad (s)

You should watch this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FueYPEliMc4

Seriously Shias guidance not just guidance but a strong one. Anyways, Baqir and odas there are two instances on Ashura fast and no contradiction.

One is d quraysh used to observe d fast and d Prophet used to as well bfor Ramadan but after Ramadan it was made voluntary. The other is at a tym DAT Ashura is no more an obligation and Ramadan is obligatory he saw d Jews observing same fast. Normally he had to ask dem since its just a mere fast (according to it being a pre-islamic fasting). The Jews told him d reason and He ordered d Muslims( voluntarily) to start observing it AGAIN as dia is a genuine basis now( which the Quraysh never knew)....... in fact he even commanded adding another day maybe 9th or 11th so to be beta Dan d Jews.

So the issue of Ashura is in two instances- one before Ramadan and another When he saw d Jews, no contradiction but shia guys av a blood ritual they observe on Ashura day so nothing can be beloved to them dan dat. Anything aside DAT, they wil try to reject or cook lies against it and dats wat has happened not to talk of their hatred of Sahih Bukhari itself...... they need guidance dats all.

ruhu:
Seriously Shias guidance not just guidance but a strong one. Anyways, Baqir and odas there are two instances on Ashura fast and no contradiction.
One is d quraysh used to observe d fast and d Prophet used to as well bfor Ramadan but after Ramadan it was made voluntary. The other is at a tym DAT Ashura is no more an obligation and Ramadan is obligatory he saw d Jews observing same fast. Normally he had to ask dem since its just a mere fast (according to it being a pre-islamic fasting). The Jews told him d reason and He ordered d Muslims( voluntarily) to start observing it AGAIN as dia is a genuine basis now( which the Quraysh never knew)....... in fact he even commanded adding another day maybe 9th or 11th so to be beta Dan d Jews.

From calendar calculation (mathematics) no Ashura coincided with any Jewish fast in the first and second year hijrah. All the fasting the Jews observe including the Fast of the Atonement being the context given in the Hadith did not coincide with the 10 th day of Muharram (Day of Ashura) in the first and second year of hijrah. The claim about Jews fasting and attaching special meanings to Ashura about previous prophets and Jewish fasting, after it was allegedly abandoned for the fast of Ramadan, have their aims in concealing the Tragedy of Karbala and the martyrdom of Imam Hussein (as). It was an Ummayad scheme.

So the issue of Ashura is in two instances- one before Ramadan and another When he saw d Jews, no contradiction but shia guys av a blood ritual they observe on Ashura day so nothing can be beloved to them dan dat. Anything aside DAT, they wil try to reject or cook lies against it and dats wat has happened not to talk of their hatred of Sahih Bukhari itself...... they need guidance dats all.

How ignorant is this of a prophet! You think the Prophet (s) act on his own desires and knowledge? Or you think he needs Jews to remind him of serving Allah? Or you think the formulation of Islamic laws and practices is based on borrowing from Jews? If a Christian tells you that Islam is a borrowed religion from Judaism and the Old Testament you will go up in arms. But in regards to Ashura you are affirming that claim that Islam is borrowed from the Jews. You even don't cease to baselessly, hatefully and ignorantly accuse the Shia of being followers of a fictional Jewish character called Abdullah Ibn Saba. But here, you proudly declare that the Prophet (s) remembered and copied a fast from the Jews.

We don't have any blood ritual. Those who self flagellate do that on their own quest. It has no basis in the shariah and our scholars have spoken out against the act of self inflicted injuries in the name of mourning and sacrificing one's blood for Imam Hussein (as). Instead of wasting blood through self inflicted injuries, sane and sound Shia Muslims go to hospitals and donate their blood for proper use and benefit to society.

Shias need guidance I repeat. So if the Prophet asked d People of the Book about some issues, it means he is ignorant??....Astaghfirullah, maybe you guys should go and read the Quran very well for guidance. Allah himself commanded the Prophet to ask the People of the Book about some matters. This is not to mean that he is ignorant or so DAT u call it, it only mean DT the Religion is One but the Jews and Christians only concocted it.
Allah says :
10:93 And We had certainty settled the Children of Israel in an agreeable settlement and provided them with good things. And they did not differ until [after] knowledge had come to them. Indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ

10:94 So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ASK THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN READING THE SCRIPTURE BEFORE YOU. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

So asking d Jews about some issues is nothing, as long as you don't follow their distorted and concocted beliefs, we have the best creed in our Prophet devoid of error but may Allah guide d Shias. Other verses below:

23:52 And indeed this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so fear Me."

23:53 But the people divided their religion among them into sects - each faction, in what it has, rejoicing.



2:183 O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting AS IT WAS DECREED UPON THOSE BEFORE YOU that you may become righteous -

of course the verse is for Ramadan, but we are just letting u guys know DAT "fasting" in itself did not start with the Muslims, its a long term religious obligation so if dos DAT Allah has sent Messengers to before used to fast on a certain day and our Prophet ordered us to do so as well though voluntarily, dia is no big deal but vast reward. An example of another fast taken from the earlier Prophets but which the Prophet Muhammad practised was the fasting of Prophet Daud( fasting a day on and a day off).

So, Shia only av issues and their issues is politics which has made dem to be blind from guidance. May Allah guide the Shias and all of us.

AlBaqir:


Obviously there is nothing optional in Ashura fasting. It is rather an abandoned practice when Ramadan fasting has been legislated. Its like the case of facing Masjid al-Aqsa before Qibla is established. After the establishment of Qibla (Makkah), is it optional to face al-Aqsa in salat?

The reason you can't compare the two is, Qibla before Makkah(aqsa) was mandatory just like makkah is mandatory now. Ashura on the hand was not obligatory even for the Jews. It was not their 30 or 40 days of fast that was compulsory on them.

Indeed, technically, Shia aside, honoring Saidina Hussein, in my opinion should be priority. You know why?. Musa (as) was long gone way before Hussein (ra) even came into being. But if there should be anything to honor Hussein should be fasting not wailing, jumping, hurting themselves, crying after 1400yrs, tearing clothes, or even cursing those who killed him. Fasting is pretty much appropriate to honor him. Plus is there an order from the prophet(saw) to specifically honor Hussein on the day of Ashura aside from general command to honor his household ?

ruhu:
Shias need guidance I repeat. So if the Prophet asked d People of the Book about some issues, it means he is ignorant??....Astaghfirullah, maybe you guys should go and read the Quran very well for guidance. Allah himself commanded the Prophet to ask the People of the Book about some matters. This is not to mean that he is ignorant or so DAT u call it, it only mean DT the Religion is One but the Jews and Christians only concocted it.
Allah says :
10:93 And We had certainty settled the Children of Israel in an agreeable settlement and provided them with good things. And they did not differ until [after] knowledge had come to them. Indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ

10:94 So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ASK THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN READING THE SCRIPTURE BEFORE YOU. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

So asking d Jews about some issues is nothing, as long as you don't follow their distorted and concocted beliefs, we have the best creed in our Prophet devoid of error but may Allah guide d Shias. Other verses below:

23:52 And indeed this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so fear Me."

23:53 But the people divided their religion among them into sects - each faction, in what it has, rejoicing.



2:183 O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting AS IT WAS DECREED UPON THOSE BEFORE YOU that you may become righteous -

of course the verse is for Ramadan, but we are just letting u guys know DAT "fasting" in itself did not start with the Muslims, its a long term religious obligation so if dos DAT Allah has sent Messengers to before used to fast on a certain day and our Prophet ordered us to do so as well though voluntarily, dia is no big deal but vast reward. An example of another fast taken from the earlier Prophets but which the Prophet Muhammad practised was the fasting of Prophet Daud( fasting a day on and a day off).

So, Shia only av issues and their issues is politics which has made dem to be blind from guidance. May Allah guide the Shias and all of us.

So if the Christians and Jews are misguided, then what are you going to take from them that is good?

You're distorting and misinterpreting that verse. Is the verse talking to the Prophet (s) or the pagans of Quraysh? And is the verse asking them to seek guidance or to take the Ahlul Kitab as examples of people who also came in touch with revelations? Meaning that revelation isn't something new.

Empiree:
The reason you can't compare the two is, Qibla before Makkah(aqsa) was mandatory just like makkah is mandatory now. Ashura on the hand was not obligatory even for the Jews. It was not their 30 or 40 days of fast that was compulsory on them.

# Please try again brother

# @underline, We talk about Muslims here not Jews.

# Muslims do not have a single obligatory fasting aside Ashura fasting before Ramadan. So, as al-Aqsa was mandated to face during salat before the Makkan Qiblah, so was Ashura was mandated to fast in before Ramadan. Observe all the pre-Ramadan ahadith on Ashura fasting: They says, "the Prophet COMMAND the fasting of Ashura". The "command" there made it obligatory.

# After our Qiblah was established, al-Aqsa was abandoned not optional.

# After Ramadan fasting was established, Ashura fasting was abandoned not optional. We have a practical example of Ibn Umar. According to sahih Bukhari, he abandoned fasting in Ashura except by chance his routine fasting fell in it.

Empiree:

Indeed, technically, Shia aside, honoring Saidina Hussein, in my opinion should be priority. You know why?. Musa (as) was long gone way before Hussein (ra) even came into being. But if there should be anything to honor Hussein should be fasting not wailing, jumping, hurting themselves, crying after 1400yrs, tearing clothes, or even cursing those who killed him. Fasting is pretty much appropriate to honor him. Plus is there an order from the prophet(saw) to specifically honor Hussein on the day of Ashura aside from general command to honor his household ?

# While you are being factual, I can't imagine your general accusations.

# Nabi cried and cried and cried profusely hearing the revelation of the angels about the death of Imam Hussein. After the demise of Nabi, salallahu alayhi wa ahli, several ahadith from Ibn Abbas, Umm Salamah et al also revealed how Nabi was sad, disturbed, and crying on the actual day of Ashura when al-Hussein was eventually murdered by this nation. Why is it wrong if we cry, become sad and disturbed for commemorating the death of al-Hussein?

# Nabi never fasted for al-Hussein that day. Besides fasting is seeking personal reward from Allah. However, we have sahih ahadith of Sunni and Shia which says crying for al-Hussein and Ahl al-Bayt, its reward is al-Jannah".

You can read those ahadith here: https://www.nairaland.com/3394720/prophet-day-ashura-significance-ashura#50009153

# In fact according to a version of hadith al-Thaqalain documented by Muslim, al-Albani, al-Hindi et al, remembering the Ahl al-Bayt is wahjib.

# Your accusations: Tearing of clothes, wailing, hurting themselves. I do not deny that it doesn't exist among the Shia communities. All these are excessive and exaggerated acts that were never found in the Sunnah of Nabi and his Ahl al-Bayt. Our leading Maraji have repeatedly condemn these acts.

Kindly see my new thread on Tatbir - body flaggelation.

Lastly you sound as if all Shia do on the day of Ashura is crying, wailing and blood ritual flagellation. Try to attend Ashura Majalis once. Alhamdulillah you are in the State. However here are inspirational teachings of Ashura:
https://www.nairaland.com/2043897/14-lessons-humanity-tragedy-karbala

ruhu:

Allah says :

10:93 And We had certainty settled the Children of Israel in an agreeable settlement and provided them with good things. And they did not differ until [after] knowledge had come to them. Indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ

10:94 So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ASK THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN READING THE SCRIPTURE BEFORE YOU. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

So asking d Jews about some issues is nothing, as long as you don't follow their distorted and concocted beliefs, we have the best creed in our Prophet devoid of error but may Allah guide d Shias. Other verses below:

# @bold, You can clearly see how you inserted the name "Muhammad" in that ayah. Its not part of the ayah.

# Anyway the tone of the ayah never suggest its refer to the Prophet. Is Prophet a doubter of Allah's revelation and guidance? The verse addresses others than our Nabi.

# Quran in surah al-Baqarah: 120, surah as-Saff:9 etc established the uniqueness of Islamic codes over all religions and forbid following the Jews and the Christians.

ShiaMuslim:


From calendar calculation (mathematics) no Ashura coincided with any Jewish fast in the first and second year hijrah. All the fasting the Jews observe including the Fast of the Atonement being the context given in the Hadith did not coincide with the 10 th day of Muharram (Day of Ashura) in the first and second year of hijrah. The claim about Jews fasting and attaching special meanings to Ashura about previous prophets and Jewish fasting, after it was allegedly abandoned for the fast of Ramadan, have their aims in concealing the Tragedy of Karbala and the martyrdom of Imam Hussein (as). It was an Ummayad scheme.



How ignorant is this of a prophet! You think the Prophet (s) act on his own desires and knowledge? Or you think he needs Jews to remind him of serving Allah? Or you think the formulation of Islamic laws and practices is based on borrowing from Jews? If a Christian tells you that Islam is a borrowed religion from Judaism and the Old Testament you will go up in arms. But in regards to Ashura you are affirming that claim that Islam is borrowed from the Jews. You even don't cease to baselessly, hatefully and ignorantly accuse the Shia of being followers of a fictional Jewish character called Abdullah Ibn Saba. But here, you proudly declare that the Prophet (s) remembered and copied a fast from the Jews.

We don't have any blood ritual. Those who self flagellate do that on their own quest. It has no basis in the shariah and our scholars have spoken out against the act of self inflicted injuries in the name of mourning and sacrificing one's blood for Imam Hussein (as). Instead of wasting blood through self inflicted injuries, sane and sound Shia Muslims go to hospitals and donate their blood for proper use and benefit to society.

# Jazumullahu khairan jazal. I love this reply. Its concise.

Dr. Adnan Ibrahim shafi'i in an exclusive topic about the revolt of Imam al-Hussein, _alayhi salat wa salam_


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibpf98yOBas

I have reached a point here where the only thing I can say is "may Allah guide the Shias because there is no doubt, they are lost!!!"

ruhu:
I have reached a point here where the only thing I can say is "may Allah guide the Shias because there is no doubt, they are lost!!!"

Ameen. May Allah guide us...and may Allah save you from shaitan's misguidance because you are blind! You have eyes you can't see with. If after all the facts and logic presented this is your conclusion, have your "guidance" to yourself. Thanks!

AlBaqir:


# Jazumullahu khairan jazal. I love this reply. Its concise.

Ameen akhi. May Allah bless you too abundantly for enjoining good and forbidding evil and your sacrifices and efforts in the path of Al Muhammad (s).

@AlBaqir,

I wonder if it is your ignorance, or your desperation that made you to respond the way you did. Firstly, I did indicate the source of what I had presented, and it is not from twelvershia, if you had been patient to read, you would have seen the HYPERLINK!

Secondly, If I was to be in your shoes, I would be so ashamed to put the narrations you just did, which are in contradiction to the ones, also attributed to the Imams, which I had quoted initially.

Now lets look at the narrations again:

Sa’ad bin ‘Abdullah from abu Ja’afar from Ja’afar bin Muhammad bin ‘Ubeidullah from ‘Abdullah bin Maymoun al-Qaddah from Imam Ja’afar from his father (as): “The fasting of ‘Ashura removes the sins of a year.”(Tahtheeb al-Ahkam 4/300 & Wasael al-Shia 10/457).[Grading: Sahih(authentic)]

‘Ali bin al-Hassan bin Faddal from Haroun bin Muslim from Masa’adah bin Sadaqah from Imam abu ‘Abdullah from his Father that ‘Ali (as) said: “Fast on ‘Ashura the ninth and tenth for it removes the sins of a whole year.” (Tahtheeb al-Ahkam 4/299 & Wasael al-Shia 10/457).[Grading: Muawaththaq(reliable)]

These two narrations would suffice; here it clearly states the benefit of fasting Ashura. The second narration is quite more specific, being that it is from the first Imam of the shi’a, he said, fast on Ashura, the 9th and 10th, it was a direct and specific command. These narrations are after the death of the Prophet (SAW), as well as after Ramadhan had already been legislated. The funny thing is that, I had also presented where a shi’a scholar (Al Khoei) had no choice but declare that these narrations are authentic, and those in the contrary are weak! Not only that, another Shi’a scholar advised the extremist Shi’a not to destroy the foundation of their religion based on the hatred for the Muslims, but here is AlBaqir and his sidekick, trying too hard to disprove the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) and the ahl-l-bayt.

So AlBaqir decided to quote the following, as prove:

Chapter: Book of fasting part 2, chapter 14 hadith number 4

Najabah ibn Al Harith Al attar said I once asked Abu Jafar(as) about fasting on the day of ashura. He(the imam) said It is a discarded fast after the coming of Shahr Ramadan and what is discarded and abandoned is Heresy. Najabah then asked Abu Abdullah(as) after his father about it and he answered just like his father and then said “ it is a fast about which there is not anything in the book or the established sunnah except the sunnah of the family of Ziyad for their murdering Al-Husayn Ibn Ali(as)

This above is the most ridiculous fabrication about ashura. The same Abu Jafar, that said the fast expiates the sins of a year, now all of a sudden, realized that it is a discarded fast?! Not only that, then another Imam said, it is not an established sunnah (see bold in red)?! Howcome?! Was it a discarded fast or it was never a sunnah?! Which is it?! Not to mention the fact that it was a sunnah of those who murdered Husayn?! When the Prophet (SAW) and the companions fasted ashura, as corroborated by the shi’a narrations already presented, were they following the sunnah of the family of Ziyad?! Subhannalah! This is very pathetic, and I pity those who would even think for a second you guys do have a point…

Let’s look at another of AlBaqir’s “authentic” narration presented:

Chapter: Book of fasting part 2, chapter 14 hadith number 6

I heard Zurarah(RAA) asking Abu Abdullah(as) about the fast on the day of Ashura, Abu Abdullah(as) said whoever fasts on this day, his share for such fasts is like the share of ibn Marjana and the family of Ziyad, I then asked what was their share that day? he said(as) it is the fire, I seek protection with Allah against it and against the deeds against the deeds that take one closer to the fire.

The same Abu Abdullah again! How can a fast that would expiate a sin of one year, turns automatically into a deed of the people of hell fire?! If you pay close attention dear readers, this fabrication was made so as to discredit the sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) in order to promote the bid’a of what the shi’a do in mourning the death of Husayn ibn Ali on this day!

Like seriously AlBaqir, those who fabricated these narrations no try at all, the motive is so clear, and they did have poor intellect, and I am more surprised that any educated fellow would fall for such cheap lies!

With regards to Al Khoei, it seems you guys like to double speak, who made the statements quoted from the books, Was it not Al Khoei?! It seems you couldn’t refute Al Sharani’s advice for you guys right?!

Lastly, this is not the first time I’ll be exposing you on this Ashura issue, so don’t expect me to start analyzing your usual conjectures, I had presented a link that had done justice to that already!

sino:
Now lets look at the narrations again:

Sa’ad bin ‘Abdullah from abu Ja’afar from Ja’afar bin Muhammad bin ‘Ubeidullah from ‘Abdullah bin Maymoun al-Qaddah from Imam Ja’afar from his father (as): “The fasting of ‘Ashura removes the sins of a year.”(Tahtheeb al-Ahkam 4/300 & Wasael al-Shia 10/457).[Grading: Sahih(authentic)]

‘Ali bin al-Hassan bin Faddal from Haroun bin Muslim from Masa’adah bin Sadaqah from Imam abu ‘Abdullah from his Father that ‘Ali (as) said: “Fast on ‘Ashura the ninth and tenth for it removes the sins of a whole year.” (Tahtheeb al-Ahkam 4/299 & Wasael al-Shia 10/457).[Grading: Muawaththaq(reliable)]

These two narrations would suffice; here it clearly states the benefit of fasting Ashura. The second narration is quite more specific, being that it is from the first Imam of the shi’a, he said, fast on Ashura, the 9th and 10th, it was a direct and specific command. These narrations are after the death of the Prophet (SAW), as well as after Ramadhan had already been legislated. The funny thing is that, I had also presented where a shi’a scholar (Al Khoei) had no choice but declare that these narrations are authentic, and those in the contrary are weak! Not only that, another Shi’a scholar advised the extremist Shi’a not to destroy the foundation of their religion based on the hatred for the Muslims, but here is AlBaqir and his sidekick, trying too hard to disprove the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) and the ahl-l-bayt.

So AlBaqir decided to quote the following, as prove:

# No. I first quoted your favourite website to kill your goal.

# I know you love repeating classes arguing in circles especially when you cannot find "replies" to copy paste.

# Again here is what your lovely website says:

Objectively speaking, Al-Majlisi actually weakened all the hadiths in this chapter in his book Malath Al-Akhyar 7/116-118 due to the weakness of the chains, with the exception of one hadith, which is the twelfth in the chapter, which he authenticated. The narration simply states:

“The Messenger of Allah peace be upon him and his progeny fasted the day of Ashura.”

Al-Majlisi I also authenticates another narration his exegesis of Man La Yahtharhu Al-Faqeeh, Rawdhat Al-Mutaqeen 4/313. The narration from Mohammad bin Muslim and Zurarah states that Al-Baqir told them about fasting Ashura that, “it was fasted before Ramadhan, but after Ramadhan was made obligatory it was left.”

This too confirms with the Sunni teaching that fasting Ashura was obligatory for a period of time.
http://twelvershia.net/2015/10/22/the-truth-about-fasting-ashura/

# You can clearly see your desperation in copy-pasting what you cannot personally prove. I have given you two Shia sites - one belonging to the works of Ayatullah al-Khoei. The other site, you can easily download whatever Shia books. Kindly prove to us the authenticity of those narrations.

# Your favourite website further quoted an authentic Shia hadith which says Ashura fasting used to exist before it became an abandoned fasting with the arrival of Ramadan. This sealed the arguments as far as Shia fiqh is concerned. And any hadith that says otherwise (like that of Imam Ali et al above), even if authentic via its sanad, will be weakened via its matn because of this content that have Ramadan abrogating Ashura fasting.

# Besides, the same Ayatullah Abul Qassim al-Uzma al-Khoei (may Allah raise his status) that you copy-pasted his quote have authenticated another hadith which I have posted earlier. The hadith further says Ramadan made Ashura fasting an abandoned fasting. This is what made Ayatullah al-Khoei to rule that it is ABOMINABLE to fast on the day of Ashura. Yet your unverified copy-pasting says Ayatullah al-Khoei claimed, "all ahadith that say Ashura fasting has been abrogated or abandoned are weak".

sino:

Chapter: Book of fasting part 2, chapter 14 hadith number 4

Najabah ibn Al Harith Al attar said I once asked Abu Jafar(as) about fasting on the day of ashura. He(the imam) said It is a discarded fast after the coming of Shahr Ramadan and what is discarded and abandoned is Heresy. Najabah then asked Abu Abdullah(as) after his father about it and he answered just like his father and then said “ it is a fast about which there is not anything in the book or the established sunnah except the sunnah of the family of Ziyad for their murdering Al-Husayn Ibn Ali(as)


This above is the most ridiculous fabrication about ashura. The same Abu Jafar, that said the fast expiates the sins of a year, now all of a sudden, realized that it is a discarded fast?! Not only that, then another Imam said, it is not an established sunnah (see bold in red)?! Howcome?! Was it a discarded fast or it was never a sunnah?! Which is it?! Not to mention the fact that it was a sunnah of those who murdered Husayn?! When the Prophet (SAW) and the companions fasted ashura, as corroborated by the shi’a narrations already presented, were they following the sunnah of the family of Ziyad?! Subhannalah! This is very pathetic, and I pity those who would even think for a second you guys do have a point…

# Show us a single ayah in the Quran that talks about Ashura fasting. Just one ayah please. If you cannot, then it confirm the authenticity of the saying of Imam, "it is a fast about which there is not anything in the book". "Book" here refer to Quran.

# Second, is Ashura from the established Sunnah of Nabi, salallahu alayhi wa ahli? Your ahadith and a Shia weak hadith says it was from the sunnah of Musa. Even if it was borrowed, its never belong to Muhammad ibn Abdullah. And the advent of Ramadan fasting buried it to the eternal ground. Only the cursed Ibn Ziyad's family revived it as a "sunnah".

# Below hadith simply shows the gravity of following the "sunnah" of Ibn Marjanah that is Ubaydullah ibn Ziyad.

sino:


Let’s look at another of AlBaqir’s “authentic” narration presented:

Chapter: Book of fasting part 2, chapter 14 hadith number 6

I heard Zurarah(RAA) asking Abu Abdullah(as) about the fast on the day of Ashura, Abu Abdullah(as) said whoever fasts on this day, his share for such fasts is like the share of ibn Marjana and the family of Ziyad, I then asked what was their share that day? he said(as) it is the fire, I seek protection with Allah against it and against the deeds against the deeds that take one closer to the fire.

What does Albaqir and Shiamuslim think about this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMs0nzyIuOk

Far as I am concerned, there are ahadith indicating something like Ashura is abrogated but made optional.

http://www.sahihmuslim.com/sps/smm/sahihmuslim.cfm?scn=dspchaptersfull&ChapterID=424&BookID=6


Also, I dont really think muslims now fast in commemortion of victory of Musa over Fir'aun. Today, it is more for personal spiritulity, to ward off sins of previous years etc. It is only for academic purposes the Sunni mention Ashura in connection with Musa(as). Other point is, there is nothing legislated by the prophet (SAW) to commemorate Hussein(as) but I am not object to it if Shia choose to commemorate 10th of Ashura for Imam Hussein so long as they remove unnecessary activities and even jail people beating up themselves. That's ignorance and silly.

As for saying prophet(SAW) cried upon hearing the sad news of his grandson fate, his cries was for the moment which can happen to anyone. His cry does not in anyway denotes a means of legislation. I understand Shia Ulama do not agree on those people wailing, tear clothes and doing all sorts of nonsense on Ashura. There are many ahadith that go against such practices


Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, said: «The deceased suffers when someone bewails loudly» (Reported by Bukhari & Muslim).


Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, said: «He is not of us who beats his face, tears his clothes and bewails loudly when misfortune happens to him as was done before during the days of ignorance» (Reported by Bukhari & Muslim).


Some people let their beard grow to show their sadness, then after several days they shave it. Others wear black clothes, or black ties. All of this has no basis in Islam. It is a Muslim’s duty to advise gently those who do these things to stop doing so, since it is totally prohibited. No loss, however great, should lead a Muslim to sour his faith. They should however bear patiently and accept Allah’s destiny.

There is no objection to quiet weeping as Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, did when his son died and said: «It is a mercy that Allah made in the hearts of his servants» (Reported by Bukhari).


I believe weeping every year over this is irrational. They should rather involved in some academic approach than what Ashura is known for amongst Shia today. I certainly understand it may be commemorated differently in different parts of Shia world. But I need to know on what basis according to the prophet(saw) do Shia celebrate Ashura in honor of Imam Hussein?. Mourning every year sounds like Hollywood and 9/11 to me where people come up with excuses to do what they want.

The reason mourning (as in crying loud and wailing) dont add up is because Imam Hussein gone 1400 years ago but according to hadith, relatives of a deceased Muslim may mourn him for three days only, but a widow may mourn her husband four months and ten days. This is due to Hadith of Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, who said: «It is prohibited for a woman who believes in Allah and the day of judgment to mourn any dead person more than three days except her husband four months and ten days» (Reported by Bukhari).

So how about those Shia who are not even Hussein's relatives today wailing and still mourning after 1400 years?. This is clear opposition to the hadith ^

Unless there is a specific order from the prophet to commemorate him, I dont think it is appropriate to wail, wear specific cloth and match up the street etc. Let me repeat again that even Sunni Muslims today do not fast as a result of victory granted to Bani Israili. Ashura fasting today is more for personal needs

Empiree:
What does Albaqir and Shiamuslim think about this?

Far as I am concerned, there are ahadith indicating something like Ashura is abrogated but made optional.

# If something has been abrogated, there is no option for it again faah. Even it applies to ayah of the holy Quran. For example:

* Two verses of the holy Quran "seemed" to permit khamr. But the last ayah came in surah al-Maidah to abrogate those previous two. Are they still optional despite been preserved in the Quran?

* Facing Masjid al-Aqsa versus Makkah. This has been explained already.

# Interestingly, if you carefully study Sunni ahadith on Ashura fasting, you will realize both words were used: Abandoned or leave (ترك ) and optional. Which one is closer to the ruling of Abrogation?

Empiree:

Also, I dont really think muslims now fast in commemortion of victory of Musa over Fir'aun. Today, it is more for personal spiritulity, to ward off sins of previous years etc. It is only for academic purposes the Sunni mention Ashura in connection with Musa(as).

# You cannot run away from the origin of this. That's why all Sunni ulama never cease recounting the story.

# As per its purported virtue, sincerely, if Ashura fasting (that has been abrogated) continue to enjoy this excellent virtue, what then is the essence of 29 or 30 days of Ramadan? Observe: The hadith in sahih Bukhari says Nabi said, "I seek that Ashura fasting expiate the sins of previous year". Does this "seek" granted? Allah gave a far better fasting in Ramadan with exclusive and excellent rewards that no other fasting can ever has.

# Whatever has been abrogated has been buried alongside its virtues/rewards. This is what made Abdullah ibn Umar, whom Sunni holds in high esteem, to abandon the fasting completely.

Empiree:

Other point is, there is nothing legislated by the prophet (SAW) to commemorate Hussein(as) but I am not object to it if Shia choose to commemorate 10th of Ashura for Imam Hussein so long as they remove unnecessary activities and even jail people beating up themselves. That's ignorance and silly. As for saying prophet(SAW) cried upon hearing the sad news of his grandson fate, his cries was for the moment which can happen to anyone. His cry does not in anyway denotes a means of legislation.

# "Sunnah of Nabi" does not end in what he legislated. Even what he was observed doing but does not command is his Sunnah.

# The death of Hussein has not yet come that Nabi cried continuously. What if he lived to witness the massacre by his Ummah? Then, on the actual day of Ashura, Abdullah ibn Abbas and Umm Salamah revealed the state of sadness Nabi was as it was revealed to them in their respective dreams.

# Have you ever ask yourself what brings about tears? A true Shia do not just cry or mourn mechanically. It is only when you remember and fully realized al-Hussein and what he and the rest of the family of Nabi, and his companions went through on that day that your eyes will shed tears.
Even a loving mother with tender heart cries everytime she remember the death of her helpless child. So, why wont I cry for whom Nabi cried for? Why won't I cry for whom Nabi says, "He (al-Hussein) is from me and I (Muhammad) am from him. Whoever loves him, loves me..."?

# Then did I got you right that "nothing" from the Prophet legislated the commemorations of the death of al-Hussein?!

"...I remind you by Allah of my Ahl al-bayt! I remind you by Allah of my Ahl al-bayt! I remind you by Allah of my Ahl al-bayt!".

Now it is not only Hussein, but also Ali, Fatima and al-Hassan, peace and blessings be upon them all.

# Lastly on this particular reply, do you believe the words of Imam al-Hussein is nothing but from the Quran and what he learnt from his grandfather, Muhammad salallahu alayhi wa ahli?

If you do, then, Imam Hussein said, "Anyone whose eyes are filled with tears for our sake, or tears drop from his eyes for our sake, Allah the Almighty, the Most Glorious will reward him with the Paradise."

Source: Fadail as-Sahabah of Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal, vol. 2, p. 675, # 1154,

Link: http://islamport.com/w/ajz/Web/2294/1170.htm

The report has an absolutely sahih sanad.

* And you tell me not to cry and mourn?!

Empiree:


I understand Shia Ulama do not agree on those people wailing, tear clothes and doing all sorts of nonsense on Ashura. There are many ahadith that go against such practices

# So when you understand this, then why do you choose to make continuous reference to it and even generalized it?

It is normal that some people will be excessive and introduce Bid'ah. It is not particular to commemorating the death of al-Hussein only. Even in every act of Wahjib ibaadat.

Empiree:

There is no objection to quiet weeping as Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, did when his son died and said: «It is a mercy that Allah made in the hearts of his servants» (Reported by Bukhari).

# Umar ibn al-Khattab used to beat up women for mourning. Whereas Nabi will caution him to cease from that act. Nabi even encourage them to mourn but not to be excessive in it.

Empiree:

I believe weeping every year over this is irrational. They should rather involved in some academic approach than what Ashura is known for amongst Shia today. I certainly understand it may be commemorated differently in different parts of Shia world.

# Please, again, don't make it sound as if all Shia do in commemorating the death of al-Hussein is crying and crying and crying. That's very ridiculous.

I have asked you to try and attend a Shia Ashura Majalis once. Its usually a 10 days event. Day 1 to Day 10 holds several programs which include story and poems of the event of each day between Imam Hussein, his family, his companions versus the enemies. This is what usually brings about tears for tender hearts.

# There is a group called "WHO IS HUSSEIN?" and many other groups. They organize gifts and donations for the needy and poor. These gifts include blood donations in hospitals.

Empiree:

The reason mourning (as in crying loud and wailing) dont add up is because Imam Hussein gone 1400 years ago

# Please stop the exaggeration of "wailing".

I think I have given you my best already on this. However, why do you cry when you read Quran despite the fact that most of the events refer to in it happened more than 1400 years ago?

# There is no wahala for a stone-cold heart. That heart only need spiritual attention.

Empiree:

So how about those Shia who are not even Hussein's relatives today wailing and still mourning after 1400 years?. This is clear opposition to the hadith ^

# I once listened to the qirat of Sheik Abdur-Rahman Sudais or one of these Salafi reciter. He recited surah al-Buruj.

A part of the surah talks about those believers who were persecuted for their faith. They were put in the pit of fire and burnt alive.

They Quranic reciter could not control himself but burst into tears. If he continues reciting this part daily with this tender heart, tears will continue to flow daily.

Similarly if you observe some audience who used to listen to live Qira'at of the late Sheik Abdulbasit Abdulsamad, you see tears flowing each time.

Again, are stories of the Quran not about 2000+ years stories?

# My Sheik told me when he was in college of education, Òró in Kwara state studying Arabic and Islamic studies. His Sunni lecturer got to the history class of Hussein 's martyrdom. For four days the class could not proceed on the story. Each and everytime the lecturer got to the epic of the day of Ashura, he simply cannot control his tears. So were some students in the class. They need to abandoned the class and urge the student to read the part on their own.

# Such is the heart with tenderness towards anything that revolves the glory and the signs of Allah.

The first time ever I went to the beach (in Badagary) donkey years ago, I had a deep reflection towards the sign of Allah - a vast endless sea moving back and forth by His command. I cried. If I go again, my crying will be more because I grow daily to understand Allah's ma'rifa.

Empiree:

Unless there is a specific order from the prophet to commemorate him, I dont think it is appropriate to wail, wear specific cloth and match up the street etc. Let me repeat again that even Sunni Muslims today do not fast as a result of victory granted to Bani Israili. Ashura fasting today is more for personal needs

# For the 100th time, we don't wail. I remember Sino corrected me when I mistakenly used the word "wailing" last year.

# As per wearing specific cloth - black. Black clothes in nearly every society signify mourning. Its a message and awareness to the "deaf and the blind".

In Islamic fiqh, everything is considered halal unless there is a specific ruling that makes it haram.

# You are very wrong brother. Sunni Muslims fast Ashura as a result of the victory of Nabi Musa and the Jews over Fir'aun and his troops. This is the reason your hadith says Nabi said, "(if that is the reason, then) Musa is closer to us than you".

Even when some Sahabah saw this as mimicking the Jews, Nabi added 9th to make "us" distinct from the Jews. And even today, this is what Sunni Ulama recount yearly.

# What is Muslim's gain in this? Your ahadith say, "Nabi seek from his Lord atonement of previous sins".

# Allah gave a better fasting with best of rewards in Ramadan.

FASTING ON THE DAY OF ASHURA: The politics behind

By all standards, the day Imam Hussain, the
grandson of the beloved Prophet Muhammad, was killed was a great tragedy. Indeed, it was the greatest tragedy. He was martyred, along with his family members, simply because he stood against injustice. The family of Yazeed (the Banu Umayyah) and the family of Ziyad rejoiced the day he was killed. Not only did they celebrate the day of Ashura, but they turned it into a tradition for
subsequent years. They would gather their family and friends and rejoice at the martyrdom of Imam
Hussain. While fasting is a great form of worship, there are valid reservations regarding the fast of Ashura. It is always recommended to fast, anytime throughout the year (except Eid), but the problem is that there is a history of politics behind the fast of Ashura.

Killing the very grandson of the Prophet was a major crime, so Banu Umayya attempted to shift the focus of the people for the day of Ashura. Possessing power and money, they spread to the Muslims that Ashura is a blessed day. They did so by indoctrinating their people that on Ashura God saved Prophet Musa and his people from the pharaoh. He saved Prophet Ibrahim from the fire of Namrud, and so on. To thank God for that blessed day, they encouraged the people to fast on Ashura.

Here are several points that demonstrate how the hadeeths which speak of the fast of Ashura are fabricated. The Prophet probably never said them, but they were forged after him.
First: There are several hadeeths in Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, and Tirmidhi which tell us when the Prophet arrived Medina, he saw the Jews fasting, Upon knowing the reason why they were fasting, he said we the Muslims are closer to Musa, so we should also fast. If you analyze these hadeeths, you will realize that they all go back to these four narrators who supposedly narrated them directly from the Prophet:
1- Ibn Abbas
2- Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari
3- Abu Huraira
4- Mu’awiya

The Prophet came to Medina the first year of the Hijra. As for Ibn Abbas, he was born three years before Hijra, which makes him four years old when the Prophet supposedly said this Hadith. In the
Science of Hadith, the narration of a four-year-old boy is generally not accepted.
As for Abu Musa, he came from the tribe of Banu Ash’ar in Yemen. He became Muslim before the Hijra, but he was not seen in Medina till the battle of Khaybar in the seventh year after Hijra. The
Prophet had sent him to Yemen to preach to his tribe. Hence, Abu Musa was not in Medina in the first year of Hijra, so how could he possibly narrate
this hadith?
As for Abu Huraira, he also was not seen in Medina until after the battle of Khaybar in the seventh year of Hijra. He also came from Yemen.
As for Muawiya, the son of Abu Sufyan, he became Muslim in the eighth year of Hijra, so how could he narrate a hadith from the Prophet seven or eight
years before he became Muslim?
Some of the hadeeth go back to Ibn Zubayr, who was also a young boy when the Prophet entered Medina.

Therefore, it is quite clear that all the narrators of this hadith were either not in Medina at the time, or
they were young boys, so how can we possibly accept such a hadith? It is pretty convincing that the hadith was forged later on by Bani Umayya.

Second: Let’s look at the word “Ashura” which is mentioned in the hadith. According to Ibn Al-Atheer, there are two meanings to Ashura: an old meaning
and a new meaning. The old meaning, which was during the Arab’s time and the Prophet’s time, meant the tenth day of any month. The new meaning surfaced after Imam Hussain was killed on the tenth of Muharram. After that, Ashura came to be known as the tenth of Muharram, but before that it was simply the tenth day of any month. So when
the Prophet supposedly said this hadith, he just
said Ashura, and he didn’t say the tenth day of which month. This demonstrates that the hadith was forged after the day of Ashura, and it slipped from the mind of the ones who forged it that before Ashura, the word had a different, more general
meaning.

Third: Today, go to any Jew, even their scholars, and ask them: Do you have a fast on the day which God saved Moses, or a day which corresponds to the tenth of Muharram? They don’t, and they will tell you that even in the past they didn’t have such a
fast. They fast on Yum Kippur, the day when Moses returned from Mt. Sinai and realized that his people were worshipping the calf. To expiate for their sin, they fasted, but they have no fast they day God saved them from the pharaoh. But the hadith in the books of Saheeh tells us that it was a tradition of the Jews, and they would all fast that day. If you even look at the day the Jews fast, it never corresponded with the tenth of Muharram when the Prophet came to Medina. It corresponded with Muharram on the 28th year after Hijra.

Fourth: It seems the one who forged the hadith was not aware of how the Islamic Calendar originated.
During the time of Umar, since Muslims wanted a set date to refer to, he created the Hijri calendar by seeking the advice of Imam Ali. So they decided to make the starting point the migration of the Prophet, and they made the first month Muharram.

However, the Prophet entered Medina in Rabi-ul-Awwal, not in Muharram, and so the one who probably forged the hadith assumed that the
Prophet entered Medina in Muharram because that is when the calendar starts. So the hadith tells us the Prophet when he first entered Medina he saw
the Jews fasting on Ashura, but the Prophet didn’t enter Medina in Muharram, he did so in Rabu-ul-Awwal, ten months before Muharram! There’s a clear discrepancy here.

Fifth: The prophet knows more about the Shariah of previous Prophets such as Prophet Musa, and he
doesn’t need the Jews to teach him that. The
Prophet is also higher than copying what the Jews would do.

Sixth: How come there is so much emphasis on the fast of Ashura around the world? Thousands of speeches are dedicated to it, millions of pamphlets are distributed encouraging people to fast on Ashura, and so on.

There are many other days throughout the year which are highly recommended to fast, such as the 27th of Rajab, but how come
you don’t see a single pamphlet or speech
encouraging it? This shows that this is a political thing, originally designed to focus the attention away from the Martyrdom of Imam Hussain, and to consider it a blessed day. I don’t know how anyone can stand on the Day of Judgment before Prophet Muhammad and consider the very day his grandson was slaughtered a blessed day.

Thus, based on these reasons we have our reservations on the fast of Ashura. Banu Umayya were behind it, and considering it a blessed day is not an offence to us, but an offence to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family.

-Syed Baqir Al Qazwini

Brother Empiree,

The Hadith that we shouldn't mourn for more than three days does not apply on Ashura and the martyrdom of Imam Hussein (as).

Why?
Because the mourning itself is not the end here but the means in propagating the legacy, message and reviving the memory of Imam Hussein (as). Imam Hussein (as) had a cause and it must be propagated for the ummah to wake up and always be alert. The cause of Imam Hussein (as) is like a thorn against evil, tyranny, oppression and corruption on both personal and national levels. Personally, it pricks me each time I commit any wrongdoing. The story of Karbala is a narration of life, love, humanity and bond. However, it is surrounded in sadness. Whenever someone tries to tag Ashura as "mourning for Imam Hussein (as) " I try to correct the person. I tell him that Ashura is not "mourning" for Imam Hissein (as). Imam Hussein (as) doesn't need your tears, your black clothes or your feeling sad. The essence of annual processions and gatherings and lectures is TO COMMEMORATE. TO REVIVE. That is the word. And I am sure you can't be against commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussein (as). In the word COMMEMORATE, you know it is about reviving someone's MEMORY. In Arabic, it is called "Zikrat Ashura" or "the commemoration of Ashura". Zikr means "remembrance". We can't forget Imam Hussein (as) and the Tragedy that befell the Ahlul-Bayt (as) in Karbala even if the Prophet (s) made no mention about it, assuming he made no mention. Imam Baqir (as) said : May Allah have mercy on those who revive our cause! The Prophet (s) said: in the heart of the believers is a flame in respect to the martyrdom of Hussein that can never be extinguished!

When you get it clear that this is commemoration and not mourning, then two questions will follow:

1.) what is the purpose of commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussein (as)

2. How do we commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Hussein (as).

The purpose of commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussein (as) is best summarized in the word of Imam Sadeq (as). He said in response to a question on why we annually mark Ashura: "if we do not mark Ashura annually, you will forget Karbala the way you forgot Ghadir!"

Don't forget that those people who commemorate Ashura are the reason for this discussion we are presently having on nairaland. Had they not carried out these things you're criticizing, your attention won't have been drawn to make a stand.

The question now is how do we commemorate? How do we create awareness? How do we honor Imam Hussein (as)? How do we contribute to the Battle of Karbala of good against evil, even though we were not alive back then to honor and protect and sacrifice our lives for the household of Muhammad (s)? Muhammad (s) the man who gave it all so we can receive guidance. And when we are giving back to the Ahlul-Bayt (as), they don't need what you have to offer. You're the one still gaining. You are the one who would still be rewarded. Imam Hussein (as) sacrificed for the truth and for Islam. So if you revive his sacrifice, you're gaining a share in standing up for Islam.

How you choose to revive the memory of Imam Hussein (as) is your business. If in the process you get emotional and you shed tears, it's human. If you sincerely in your heart you get moved to cry, Allah will reward your good intentions. It's remembrance, not mourning. please don't call it mourning and use one Hadith to discredit reviving the memory of Imam Hussein (as). Imam Hussein (as) has kindled an everlasting Islamic flame that we can use everyday and in every land to promote Islam. Those who misunderstand the Shia and the essence of Ashura do so because they are seeing things from a sectarian point. Reviving the memory of Imam Hussein (as) is not exclusive to the Shia. Yes, he is the third infallible imam chosen by Allah based on Shia creed. But he is the grandson of our Prophet (s). Imam Hussein (as) was immensely loved and praised by the Prophet (s). Nothing stops you from showing love and reviving his memory for the sake of Islam.

So if you wear black, you shed tears, you lightly strike your chest in SYMBOLIC mourning to COMMEMORATE, you feed the poor, you donate blood in hospitals, you share water, you speak and propagate truth, you are reviving the memory of Imam Hussein (as) and you are reviving Islam. Do it your way is my message. And don't be deterred because the event is a sad one and shrouded in sadness and then use a practical Hadith about mourning for three days to discredit those who stand up for Imam Hussein (as) and who stand up for Islam. If you call yourself Sunni, my message to you is not to abandon Imam Hussein (as) like the Muslims (Shia and Sunnis) did in Karbala. My message to you is not to abandon Imam Hussein (as) to the Shia. Claim him! He is also yours. Imam Hussein (as) can unite us. He is a symbol. He sacrificed for Islam. Using that sacrifice of Imam Hussein (as) , you too can do something.

AlBaqir:


# No. I first quoted your favourite website to kill your goal.

It seems you do have a short memory, here is what you wrote:

AlBaqir:
# Sino, the Master copy-paster

I guess you copied here:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/fasting-in-'ashura-is-a-sunnah-not-a-umayyad-bid'ah/

Next time endeavour to site the link. However, a good debater will first neutralise all the submissions of his opponent before he attack with his own submission. Obviously fasting of Ashura in your books is myth.

How does the above relate to you trying to "kill your goal"?! Bros this your taqiyyah no be here o! Bro go and learn what is called an HYPERLINK!
I did not even quote from twelvershia website, and whenever I quote from other sites, I say so, It's called honesty, and having academic integrity! I am sure you are not familiar with such words...

AlBaqir:

# I know you love repeating classes arguing in circles especially when you cannot find "replies" to copy paste.

# Again here is what your lovely website says:

Objectively speaking, Al-Majlisi actually weakened all the hadiths in this chapter in his book Malath Al-Akhyar 7/116-118 due to the weakness of the chains, with the exception of one hadith, which is the twelfth in the chapter, which he authenticated. The narration simply states:

“The Messenger of Allah peace be upon him and his progeny fasted the day of Ashura.”

Al-Majlisi I also authenticates another narration his exegesis of Man La Yahtharhu Al-Faqeeh, Rawdhat Al-Mutaqeen 4/313. The narration from Mohammad bin Muslim and Zurarah states that Al-Baqir told them about fasting Ashura that, “it was fasted before Ramadhan, but after Ramadhan was made obligatory it was left.”

This too confirms with the Sunni teaching that fasting Ashura was obligatory for a period of time.
http://twelvershia.net/2015/10/22/the-truth-about-fasting-ashura/

# You can clearly see your desperation in copy-pasting what you cannot personally prove. I have given you two Shia sites - one belonging to the works of Ayatullah al-Khoei. The other site, you can easily download whatever Shia books. Kindly prove to us the authenticity of those narrations.

# Your favourite website further quoted an authentic Shia hadith which says Ashura fasting used to exist before it became an abandoned fasting with the arrival of Ramadan. This sealed the arguments as far as Shia fiqh is concerned. And any hadith that says otherwise (like that of Imam Ali et al above), even if authentic via its sanad, will be weakened via its matn because of this content that have Ramadan abrogating Ashura fasting.

I see you did not understand what the point of quoting Al-Majilis’s view by the twelvershia team, most importantly, affirming/confirming that the Prophet (SAW) and his ahl-l-bayt did indeed fast Ashura! It also means that Ashura was obligatory before Ramadhan! But as indicated by Al Sharani, you extremist shi’a, due to your hatred for the Muslims, and by extension, wanting to promote your bid’a, would claim the fast of Ashurah was prohibited or never was commanded. The narration said it was left, how does leaving something, equate being a deed of people of hell fire?! We do have authentic proof of the rewards of fasting Ashurah, it is not compulsory, it is only recommended, just like fasting the fast of Prophet Daud (AS), or fasting three days in a month. We follow the Sunnah, even Majilisi confirmed it, it was left means it was not made compulsory anymore! Try another angle bro, this no work for you. Your fiqh is weird, but unfortunately for you guys, your scholar said, that is Al Khoei, all the narrations prohibiting fast on Ashura, are WEAK!

AlBaqir:

# Besides, the same Ayatullah Abul Qassim al-Uzma al-Khoei (may Allah raise his status) that you copy-pasted his quote have authenticated another hadith which I have posted earlier. The hadith further says Ramadan made Ashura fasting an abandoned fasting. This is what made Ayatullah al-Khoei to rule that it is ABOMINABLE to fast on the day of Ashura. Yet your unverified copy-pasting says Ayatullah al-Khoei claimed, "all ahadith that say Ashura fasting has been abrogated or abandoned are weak".

I had said it is either your scholars doublespeak or they are just plain ignorant, let me give you a screen grab of Al Khoei statement, not only authenticating the narrations, but also stating that fasting on Ashurah is recommended. Now it is left to you and your sect to go figure the discrepancies in what was attributed to your scholar, who is lying, who is saying the truth…The evidences are against you!

Source of the image below: https://ballandalus.files./2013/11/image0011.png

AlBaqir:

# Show us a single ayah in the Quran that talks about Ashura fasting. Just one ayah please. If you cannot, then it confirm the authenticity of the saying of Imam, "it is a fast about which there is not anything in the book". "Book" here refer to Quran.

# Second, is Ashura from the established Sunnah of Nabi, salallahu alayhi wa ahli? Your ahadith and a Shia weak hadith says it was from the sunnah of Musa. Even if it was borrowed, its never belong to Muhammad ibn Abdullah. And the advent of Ramadan fasting buried it to the eternal ground. Only the cursed Ibn Ziyad's family revived it as a "sunnah".

Have you forgotten the purpose of the Prophet (SAW)?! Allah (SWT) commanded us to follow the Prophet (SAW), that is enough proof from the Qur’an to a Muslim, and secondly, authentic narrations abound, both in Sunni sources and Shi’a, stating that the Prophet (SAW) and his companions, including the ahl-l-bayt fasted Ashura! This is an established Sunnah, there is no direct prohibition from the Prophet (SAW), there is no narration attributed to him saying people should not fast! Saying it was abandoned, after Ramadhan was made compulsory, does not equate prohibition Mr AlBaqir, it only means that it was not obligatory, and there are authentic prove for this, and not your fabricated narration of fasting Ashurah leads to hell fire!

Now, would you kindly inform us how these people you have mentioned revived the fasting of Ashura?! What did they intend to gain, by telling people to fast on the day which the Prophet and his progeny did fast?! Aren’t they responsible for the murder of Husein?! The reward of fasting this day is documented, it expiates the sins of a year (minor sins), so I ask again, what do they intend to gain?!

AlBaqir:

# Below hadith simply shows the gravity of following the "sunnah" of Ibn Marjanah that is Ubaydullah ibn Ziyad.

I asked an important question already, is fasting Ashura a sunnah of the Propeht (SAW) or that of the Abu Ziyad’s?! Evidences brought so far shows that it was a sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) and his progeny, you should provide evidences (authentic) how it was the sunnah of the Abu Ziyads!

^Kindly go to the official website of Ayatullah al-Khoei and give us that. Only that your word can have a weight. Am done with you man. Salam

@ShiaMuslim and albaqir, I can understand "cry" aspect in the light of reciting Qur'an, narrating seerat nabi (saw) etc. Indeed, concussion Muslims would ponder, sober and perhaps cry. It's not uncommon when we recite Quran and get emotional as you said about Sheikh Sudais (May Allah preserve him). I also remembered last year when I attended a conference headed by Dr. Shabir Ali (may Allah preserve him), some people sobed indeed. So it's not uncommon really when this day of Ashura is commemorated.

However, Shia ulama need to do more to clamp down on Tatbir. I'm sorry I have to repeat this cus it's very disturbing. I don't know of majority do rods or not but I know not all of them. Shia ulama should not differ on condemning it. This is what they show to people in the West as "Islam".

I'm not against if they want to commemorate Ashura for Imam Hussein. As you rightly said that they do recite poems and narrate stories, that's fine. I was going to suggest that as well.

And for the fact that Rosululahi (saw) recommended fastin before and after Ashura to distinguish ourselves from the Jews still make the fatty valid and optional. Plus who don't wants to hear his sins of previous year would be forgiven for fasting that day. I would

Empiree:
However, Shia ulama need to do more to clamp down on Tatbir. I'm sorry I have to repeat this cus it's very disturbing. I don't know of majority do rods or not but I know not all of them. Shia ulama should not differ on condemning it. This is what they show to people in the West as "Islam".

# How does the actions of salafi-wahabi-influenced ISIS, ISIL, BOKO HARAM etc present Islam in the world? Are Sunni, Salafi and Shi'a ulama not doing enough?

# I simply don't understand why you keep harmering repeatedly on "Tatbir". I just opened a thread on that for Allah's sake. For your information, Tatbir is Haram by the fatawa of all major Shia Maraji. Do you expect the ulama to be canning them? Tatbir is only found in some area of the Indian-Pakistan because of their agelong cultural practice which crept into Islam. Interestingly, non-muslim-Shia of these region practice this blood ritual. Do you hear of Tatbir in Nigeria as we have more than 15 million Shia? Do you hear of Tatbir in Shia majority Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, and other Shi'i minority communities? Why trying to judge this action of a fraction over millions?

Empiree:

And for the fact that Rosululahi (saw) recommended fastin before and after Ashura to distinguish ourselves from the Jews still make the fatty valid and optional. Plus who don't wants to hear his sins of previous year would be forgiven for fasting that day. I would

# I have challenge severally your documentations and arguments on Ashura fasting. You have done nothing other than repeating its optional.

# Wallahi its ridiculous telling me Nabi followed Jews. The pics you attached with that exact message is never found in sahih Bukhari. If you have reference for it, kindly share.

On this note I bid you guys farewell on this forum.

Salam alaykum.

AlBaqir:


# How does the actions of salafi-wahabi-influenced ISIS, ISIL, BOKO HARAM etc present Islam in the world? Are Sunni, Salafi and Shi'a ulama not doing enough?

# I simply don't understand why you keep harmering repeatedly on "Tatbir". I just opened a thread on that for Allah's sake. For your information, Tatbir is Haram by the fatawa of all major Shia Maraji. Do you expect the ulama to be canning them? Tatbir is only found in some area of the Indian-Pakistan because of their agelong cultural practice which crept into Islam. Interestingly, non-muslim-Shia of these region practice this blood ritual. Do you hear of Tatbir in Nigeria as we have more than 15 million Shia? Do you hear of Tatbir in Shia majority Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, and other Shi'i minority communities? Why trying to judge this action of a fraction over millions?

No, you read it wrong. I am not trying to blame all Shia for actions of few. I am just worried how they managed to gained so much publicity despite their few number. Really don't know how else to stop those clowns.

# I have challenge severally your documentations and arguments on Ashura fasting. You have done nothing other than repeating its optional.

# Wallahi its ridiculous telling me Nabi followed Jews. The pics you attached with that exact message is never found in sahih Bukhari. If you have reference for it, kindly share.

On this note I bid you guys farewell on this forum.

Salam alaykum.

I did this on purpose

Honestly, from what I am reading elsewhere, even from Sunni text shows abrogation of that specific fast on Ashura, especially the way those ahadith i posted earlier are worded. It is exactly what happened to the issue of Rajm. Thats why i told you early that Muslims today fast not necessarily bcus of Musa(as) affiliation but bcus of the benefits attached (wiping sins of previous year). That's what attracts muslims today. Please reason with that for a minute. It is ONLY when it comes to debate or academic purposes they talk about in "commemoration of victory" of Israelite from Pharaoh. This is common trend, especially to Western audience. But in reality, most of us fast because of the hadith


"Fasting the day of Ashura, I hope from Allah SWT He will expiate or remove the sins of the year that came before."


All other ahadith portray Ashura as something done temporarily, done with and abrogated just like Rajm. Here is one if the ahadith:



"The Prophet SAW never [size=15pt]loved to fast in a month as he used to[/size] love to fast in the month of Muharram."


This means it is abrogated. I personally fast on this day for its virtues/benefits not for commemoration at all. So do people I know. That's what many of us know when we hear Ashura. Also, Scholars, especially those in the West love to emphasize on "commemoration of victory of Banu Israel" to their Jewish audience as a result of interfaith dialogue. This wakes up some non-muslims and they wonder what Islam has to do with Jewish faith.


Take for instance this extract (below):


[size=15pt]Musa AS is the brother of our Prophet Muhammad SAW, and we believe in all the prophets. The Prophet Muhammad SAW loved all the prophets and he used to try to get closer to them as they are his brothers. So when he heard this, the Prophet SAW said: ‘I have more right over Musa than you’. And he SAW fasted this day and ordered his companions to fast as well. This is the history behind it.[/size]

http://www.halaloccasions.com/article/38/virtues-of-'ashura.html


Note the only excuse given there ^ is bcus prophet Muhammad(saw) is the brother of Moses(as). This is not enough proof to fast for victory. So personally, I believe fasting on the day of Ashura itself is abrogated but mustahab and rewardable. However, it is not proper to say fasting on Ashura is not rewardable or bid'a. It is a fast not like drinking whiskey or beer. The reason majority Sunnis go against Shi'a is bcus of limit placed on mourning the dead. But unfortunately some amongst Shia have gone overboard which makes it less attractive. But I personally get the message.

Also, we seem to be missing the point really. It is not necessarily about "victory of Mosa(as)". It is rather sending a message to the Jews in our current affairs of their lying fate predicament. Like they are doing to muslims now in Palestine, acting like firaun, the victory will be repeated in historical process. That is the message. Not about whether it is abrogated or not.

Wallau Alam

AlBaqir:
^Kindly go to the official website of Ayatullah al-Khoei and give us that. Only that your word can have a weight. Am done with you man. Salam

Always shifting the goal post, is it my fault that your scholars are full of inconsistencies?! Who wrote the book "Sharh-el-Urwatul-Wuthqa" where the quote is from?! The site I got the screen grab is a Shi'a site, So what exactly should I be looking for on Al -Khoei's website? Al-Khoei died in 1992, I'm sure he didn't think about having a website then!

I hope you are fasting like the Prophet (SAW) and his ahl-l-bayt did fast?! And hope it is a fast to follow the sunnah of the Prophet and his progeny not a fast to mourn Imam Husein?! Fasting for the sake of mourning is not a sunnah of the Prophet (SAW) nor the Ahl-l-bayt o! Well I hope you take heed.

May Allah forgive us and forgive me if I'd said anything wrong on this subject.

Question for albaqir and Shiamuslim, is there a specific order by the prophet(p) on Ashura in reference to Imam Hussein?

Many incidents occurred on Ashura. Death of Imam Hussein(ra) is one of them, victory of Musa(as) is one of them. I believe when the prophet(p) said Muslims have more right to Musa(p) than the Jews, it means Ashura is Divine msg like I have said earlier, that will re-enact historical process. That process is what we are witnessing today btw Muslims and Zionist Jews. Today, Muslim Palestinians represent ancient Jews. Zionist Jews represent Firaun.

Fir'aun was tyrannical and declared himself god almighty. The veil was removed from his eyes the last minutes.Same thing will eventually happen to the present tyrants. Veil will be removed from their eyes at the time when Isa(as) returns.

What is abrogated in fasting of the Jews was the rulings. They used to fast from sunset to sunset and were not allowed to copulate with their women until Ramadan was legislated (2:187)

So Jews have been fasting way before the prophet(p) arrived in Medina. This is what survived in the religion of Ibrahim(as) just like Arabs performed tawaf or haj but not in accordance with Shari'a. They continued these rituals because it survived from religion of Ibrahim(as).

So there is a very close reference btw Muslims and Musa in historical in historical process and it just make perfect sense to fast voluntarily for whoever wants.I am not against Shia if they choose to commemorate Ashura for Imam Hussein so long as it is within boundaries of Shari'a. There is a hadith in Sahih Muslim I think, that the prophet wanted to decide what to do the following year to distinguish Ashura of Jews from Muslim but he passed before the next year. The hadith just appeared curious but it is believe that he would have fasted a day before and after Ashura. It becomes voluntary Sunnah

^ @ Empiree you somehow bring me back to this thread . Anyway after we have "succeeded" reaching those conclusion on the other end, another thing I'd like to bring to your notice is that the hadith of Ibn Abbas is nothing but lies in whatever angles you chose to look at it.

# Jews do not follow the pagan Arab/Islamic calendar. They have their own Jewish calendar, and there is no Muharram or 'Ashura in it. Those who subscribe to the information on that hadith MUST prove to us how 10th of Muharram synchronized with Jewish month/day they used to fast to give thanks for Nabi Musa's victory over Pharaoh, in the 1st year Hijrah.

Oooh..This thread

I just confused it with similar thread. Anyways, my conclusion on this is, attention should be paid to details of TIMING of ahadith in this respect. It doesn't mean those solitary ahadith are false. We just need to do a little data searching before arriving at conclusion.

Far as I'm concerned, I see Ashura just as facing old Qibla (Jerusalem) before a new Qibla(Makkah) was mandated. The new Qibla abrogated old one. Same applies here. If Ashura was fard for the Jews (which I did not know until now), then, Ramadan abrogates it.

The only thing I can say now to be fair to those who fast this Ashura(myself included ), is nabi left the option open if the hadith valid at all. Until I see evidence otherwise, this is my conclusion.

Whoever wants to fast on Ashura may do so. And may Allah accept it as ibadah. Ameen.

However, I have to just iterate that the main message of Ashura, like I have said before, is not particularly about fasting itself or for the benefits of warding off sins, the main msg is about event or incident btw Nabi Musa (and israelites ) versus Pharaoh. This event will repeat itself in akhir zaman. That's the message Jews (wicked ones) don't want to hear now.