₦airaland Forum

I watched a documentary recently titled "RACE and INTELLIGENCE", and I must confess it really got me thinking, so I decided to bring this topic to the house for everyone to deliberate.

Considering the current situation of the globe, IS HUMAN INTELLIGENCE DETERMINED BY RACE,GENES or ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS?

I await your response.

environmental factors,most probably

because if you raise up a white kid in a typical nigerian family and community,the child will grow up typically nigerian

It's easy to say environment and I think personally environment is an over riding factor and should rightly be the main focus.

However I also think genetic make up could have a role to some extent and cannot be discounted entirely.

Sorry my friend but there is no correlation between race and intelligence.


Race is nothing but a social construct.


Genetics/Environmental/Economic factors determines how well one is exposed to "education or factors that can help one to be considered intelligent" in society.

POSAKOSA1:
Sorry my friend but there is no correlation between race and intelligence.


Race is nothing but a social construct.


Genetics/Environmental/Economic factors determines how well one is exposed to "education or factors that can help one to be considered intelligent" in society.

What do you mean race is nothing but a social construct? and is there a relationship between race and genetics?

Bennyboy11:
What do you mean race is nothing but a social construct? and is there a relationship between race and genetics?

Some people have big noses and small heads. . . that is genetics. People with big noses and small heads are not more (or less) intelligent than the rest of the population.
However, a child growing up in the wilds of Ajegunle is very very unlikely to grow up as intelligent as one who has grown up in Asokoro, Abuja.

Nigerians live in a very harsh environment where people shout for joy at the resumption of electricity supply after a break lasting hours, days, even months. What do you expect from people reduced to an animal existence?

pcmecom:
I watched a documentary recently titled "RACE and INTELLIGENCE", and I must confess it really got me thinking, so I decided to bring this topic to the house for everyone to deliberate.

Considering the current situation of the globe, IS HUMAN INTELLIGENCE DETERMINED BY RACE,GENES or ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS?

I await your response.

This a very interresting topic. I watched also last night the documentary ("RACE and INTELLIGENCE" and I think that many points have been omited in the documentary. Why intelligence have to be defined by the criteria of the caucasian in 100% of the case?.
Let us take the example of a caucasian who live in a big american city. If this caucasian is left alone in the middle of the Kalahari desert in Namibia, do you think he could survive in the desert without modern equipment and food brought with him?. NO. But The Bushmen or San, have their home is this vast expanse of the Kalahari Desert. They are living in one of the most inhospitable terrains in the world. They are able to read the signs of Mother Nature at a very young age, this is also a form of intelligence.It’s almost unbelievable that they are able to survive by hunting, gathering roots and tubers in such environment. Their lifestyle and culture were really something to experience because intelligence is also the ability to live in tune and harmony with nature.

@Beaf
Not so, growing up in Ajegunle or Asokoro has nothing to do with intelligence except you also want to believe in racial superiority. A child may grow up in a library and refuse to read books. There are people with humble backgrounds who have made it to the very tops. Those with privileged background may only have more windows of opportunities to express themselves.

Beaf:
Some people have big noses and small heads. . . that is genetics. People with big noses and small heads are not more (or less) intelligent than the rest of the population.
However, a child growing up in the wilds of Ajegunle is [b]very very unlikely to grow up as intelligent as one who has grown up in Asokoro, Abuja. [/b]

Nigerians live in a very harsh environment where people shout for joy at the resumption of electricity supply after a break lasting hours, days, even months. What do you expect from people reduced to an animal existence?

There is a difference between intelligence and brilliance. There are intelligent and unintelligent people within each race. A boy living in Ajegunle may have poorer educational results than a boy in Asokoro but only their inherent abilities can distinguish between their intelligence. So the boy in Ajegunle can be more intelligent than the boy in Asokoro.

Horus:
Let us take the example of a caucasian who live in a big american city. If this caucasian is left alone in the middle of the Kalahari desert in Namibia, do you think he could survive in the desert without modern equipment and food brought with him?. NO. But The Bushmen or San, have their home is this vast expanse of the Kalahari Desert. They are living in one of the most inhospitable terrains in the world. They are able to read the signs of Mother Nature at a very young age, [b]this is also a form of intelligence.It’s almost unbelievable that they are able to survive by hunting, gathering roots and tubers in such environment. Their lifestyle and culture were really something to experience because intelligence is also the ability to live in tune and harmony with nature.[/b]

I agree with this. You can display intelligence within an environment you are accustomed to and stupidity in an alien environment.

Horus:
This a very interresting topic. I watched also last night the documentary ("RACE and INTELLIGENCE" and I think that many points have been omited in the documentary. Why intelligence have to be defined by the criteria of the caucasian in 100% of the case?.
Let us take the example of a caucasian who live in a big american city. If this caucasian is left alone in the middle of the Kalahari desert in Namibia, do you think he could survive in the desert without modern equipment and food brought with him?. NO. But The Bushmen or San, have their home is this vast expanse of the Kalahari Desert. They are living in one of the most inhospitable terrains in the world. They are able to read the signs of Mother Nature at a very young age, this is also a form of intelligence.It’s almost unbelievable that they are able to survive by hunting, gathering roots and tubers in such environment. Their lifestyle and culture were really something to experience because intelligence is also the ability to live in tune and harmony with nature.

Very good point, this is what has come to be known as emotional intelligence. I think this debate is a very complex one and no one on either side should be arrogant enough to make a blanket statement or discount any aspect of the debate.

But don't you think it could be argued that a person surviving in the bush has more to do with adaptation than intelligence?

Bennyboy11:
Very good point, this is what has come to be known as emotional intelligence. I think this debate is a very complex one and no one on either side should be arrogant enough to make a blanket statement or discount any aspect of the debate.

But don't you think it could be argued that a person surviving in the bush has more to do with adaptation than intelligence?

Correct but adaptation is related to intelligence. So if you relocate pigmies to New york and New yorkers to the congo, what you will find is that, the more intelligent members of each group will adapt better and quicker than the less-intelligent members of each group.

We have evidence to support this. There are Africans who move to the western world from their villages and quickly adapt and become successful in their new environment while their peers manage or suffer. The reverse is also the case for caucasians who move to Africa or the Amazon jungle. The intelligent adapt and survive while the less intelligent don't and either die or run.

Beaf:
Some people have big noses and small heads. . . that is genetics. People with big noses and small heads are not more (or less) intelligent than the rest of the population.
However, a child growing up in the wilds of Ajegunle is very very unlikely to grow up as intelligent as one who has grown up in Asokoro, Abuja.

Nigerians live in a very harsh environment where people shout for joy at the resumption of electricity supply after a break lasting hours, days, even months. What do you expect from people reduced to an animal existence?

You make a very very valid point. But let me play devils advocate for a second. Most other species have varied intelligence depending on what they are. For instance dogs are not equally intelligent, different types of dogs have different levels of intelligence. Certain dogs are easier to train by police for detecting explosives for instance because they are more intelligent and that way inclined. It's the same with birds and other animals.

Why is it necessarily different for the human race?

pcicero:
@Beaf
Not so, growing up in Ajegunle or Asokoro has nothing to do with intelligence except you also want to believe in racial superiority. A child may grow up in a library and refuse to read books. There are people with humble backgrounds who have made it to the very tops. Those with privileged background may only have more windows of opportunities to express themselves.

A child raised in the roughest parts of Ajegunle is likely to lack the nutrition and other tools to build their intelligence to full potential.
It is a well known (even if unpalatable) fact that social class affects intelligence.

Duduknight:
There is a difference between intelligence and brilliance. There are intelligent and unintelligent people within each race. A boy living in Ajegunle may have poorer educational results than a boy in Asokoro but only their inherent abilities can distinguish between their intelligence. So the boy in Ajegunle can be more intelligent than the boy in Asokoro.

I agree with this. You can display intelligence within an environment you are accustomed to and stupidity in an alien environment.

So don't you think that a child who might be lacking the necessary nutrients for proper growth and development might have their intelligence impaired by the same factors? Intelligence might be innate, but it needs to be nurtured otherwise, it falls way below expectation.

Beaf:
Some people have big noses and small heads. . . that is genetics. People with big noses and small heads are not more (or less) intelligent than the rest of the population.
However, a child growing up in the wilds of Ajegunle is very very unlikely to grow up as intelligent as one who has grown up in Asokoro, Abuja.

Nigerians live in a very harsh environment where people shout for joy at the resumption of electricity supply after a break lasting hours, days, even months. What do you expect from people reduced to an animal existence?

Beaf,

Take time o!

I was raised in Ajegunle - AJ for Life!!! - and I can tell you without a doubt that kids raised in AJ are far more intelligent than the ajebotsa bred in Asokoro, Abuja. Those kids that don't even know how to use the public transportation system - danfo and okada.

AJ-bred peeps are doing great work everywhere in Naija and beyond: music, football, Nollywood, science/technology, mathematics, etc.

Please do not put us AJ-bred peeps down! We are the shiznit!

Beaf:
A child raised in the roughest parts of Ajegunle is likely to lack the nutrition and other tools to build their intelligence to full potential.
It is a well known (even if unpalatable) fact that social class affects intelligence.

So don't you think that a child who might be lacking the necessary nutrients for proper growth and development might have their intelligence impaired by the same factors? Intelligence might be innate, but it needs to be nurtured otherwise, it falls way below expectation.

So by your reasoning, individuals who lived in Ajegunle until adulthood should not be intelligent and successful and likewise, all kids who grew up in Ikoyi should be smart. But we know this is not the case. Let us forget about research and focus on real-world examples.

There are people who have grown up in improvished environments until adulthood who have become intelligent and successful and the reverse is the case for some people who grew up in affluence but are dullards.

Bennyboy11:
You make a very very valid point. But let me play devils advocate for a second. Most other species have varied intelligence depending on what they are. For instance dogs are not equally intelligent, different types of dogs have different levels of intelligence. Certain dogs are easier to train by police for detecting explosives for instance because they are more intelligent and that way inclined. It's the same with birds and other animals.

Why is it necessarily different for the human race?

Its simple. There can be more variation within a single family (small noses, height, weight, skin color etc) than the so called differences between "races" (usually colour and body part shape); but the relative intelligence of family members is not dependent on any of those variations.

You mentioned dogs. They are deliberately bred for certain characteristics, something similar happens with the offspring of two intelligent humans; say for example, two professors. They tend to be as intelligent  or more intelligent than their parents.

As to most species having varied intelligence, the ratio's are the same for all races. That leaves any gaps to environment / culture and suppport / upbringing,

Duduknight:
Correct but adaptation is related to intelligence. So if you relocate pigmies to New york and New yorkers to the congo, what you will find is that, the more intelligent members of each group will adapt better and quicker than the less-intelligent members of each group.

We have evidence to support this. There are Africans who move to the western world from their villages and quickly adapt and become successful in their new environment while their peers manage or suffer. The reverse is also the case for caucasians who move to Africa or the Amazon jungle. The intelligent adapt and survive while the less intelligent don't and either die or run.

I think a big problem with the debate is that intelligence is almost impossible to define. What is intelligence?

As well the debate is not that there aren't intelligent people on both sides, which the second part of your post is saying, because people on both sides admit there are. The debate is whether the bell shaped curve is shaped differently for the different races.

@RichyBlack and Duduknight

Make una lef me o!

I didn't just say "Ajegunle". I'm talking about those parts that bring tears to the eyes. I used the terms in the "wilds of Ajegunle" and the "roughest parts of Ajegunle".

Beaf:
Its simple. There can be more variation within a single family (small noses, height, weight, skin color etc) than the so called differences between "races" (usually colour and body part shape); but the relative intelligence of family members is not dependent on any of those variations.

You mentioned dogs. They are deliberately bred for certain characteristics, something similar happens with the offspring of two intelligent humans; say for example, two professors. They tend to be as intelligent  or more intelligent than their parents.

As to most species having varied intelligence, the ratio's are the same for all races. That leaves any gaps to environment / culture and suppport / upbringing,

But dogs are chosen based on what they are first before selections are done. Parrots are more intelligent than most other birds, fact.

The genetic testing has only just began so time will tell, but is it impossible that blacks are genetically more intelligent than whites or Asians or vice versa.

There is the suspicion for instance that rhythm has to do with genetics so why not intelligence? Let’s be objective and argue freely

Bennyboy11:
I think a big problem with the debate is that intelligence is almost impossible to define. What is intelligence?

As well the debate is not that there aren't intelligent people on both sides, which the second part of your post is saying, because people on both sides admit there are. The debate is whether the bell shaped curve is shaped differently for the different races.

[b]Intelligence is an umbrella term used to describe a property of the mind that encompasses many related abilities, such as the capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn. [/b]There are several ways to define intelligence. In some cases, intelligence may include traits such as creativity, personality, character, knowledge, or wisdom. However there is no agreement on which traits define the phenomenon of intelligence agreed upon by a majority across the various concerned disciplines.

Theories of intelligence can be divided into those based on a unilinear construct of general intelligence and those based on multiple intelligences. Francis Galton, influenced by his cousin Charles Darwin, was the first to advance a theory of general intelligence. For Galton, intelligence was a real faculty with a biological basis that could be studied by measuring reaction times to certain cognitive tasks. Galton's research on measuring the head size of British scientists and ordinary citizens led to the conclusion that head size had no relationship with the person's intelligence.

Alfred Binet and the French school of intelligence believed that intelligence was an average of numerous dissimilar abilities, rather than a unitary entity with specific identifiable properties. The Stanford-Binet intelligence test has been used by both theorists of general intelligence and multiple intelligence.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence

Bennyboy11:
I think a big problem with the debate is that intelligence is almost impossible to define. What is intelligence?

As well the debate is not that there aren't intelligent people on both sides, which the second part of your post is saying, because people on both sides admit there are. The debate is whether the bell shaped curve is shaped differently for the different races.

That is going to be a very difficult task because of differing population sizes, the presence of many races within the same environment and their different numbers, the methods of testing, etc.

For instance, many experts argue that structured IQ tests are unfavourable towards people who are not from the western world. Within the US, this has been argued extensively because the tests favoured the caucasian kids.

Bennyboy11:
But dogs are chosen based on what they are first before selections are done. Parrots are more intelligent than most other birds, fact.

The genetic testing has only just began so time will tell, but is it impossible that blacks are genetically more intelligent than whites or Asians or vice versa.

There is the suspicion for instance that rhythm has to do with genetics so why not intelligence? Let’s be objective and argue freely

There is almost zero genetic difference between "races". That is why I used the example family earlier. Sometimes, there can be more genetic variation in a nuclear family of the same "race" than there is between two different "races".
Also, aren't you are casting your net too wide? Parrots might be more intelligent than most birds, but they certainly are a different animal from an ostrich; just like humans are different from baboons.

We need to look into societal structure for any issues. One question that would offer up a lot of answers is, why were our ancestors left behind from about the 15th century? That is when something went wrong, there is no racial difference in intelligence.
Racial differences in intelligence is a fad. For example; a couple of decades ago, when the Chinese were dying in fearsome scales of hunger, draught and natural disasters, no one ascribed them any intelligence. The same goes for India. But today, there is talk about them being somehow more intelligent than everyone else. Tomorrow, it will be Botswana and Rwanda; they are the next rich countries.

Beaf, I agree with you. Some child raised up in Ajegunle, no matter how intelligent or brilliant they are if they don't have money to go to school, if they lack the proper nutrition and such., they will not be provided the necessary opportunities to properly develop and nurture their intelligence.


Environment/Economics can be related to intelligence BUT not race.

The environment within which the genetically coded intelligence is nurtured is very very significant.

Our environmental experiences actually start in the womb. It is in the womb that our nervous system, the skeleton for intelligence, is formed. During this period the brain begins to get wired up, using the template laid down in our genes.

It is in the womb that our brains are first made vulnerable to environmental influences such as the medication consumed by our mothers; the nutrients that nourish the developing brains; the untreated illnesses of the mother; the mother’s emotional well-being and exposure to such stress hormones (like serotonin), which incidentally are also implicated in subsequent development of aggression and other criminogenic behaviour, depression, psychosis etc. All these influences are implicated in the subsequent development of the individual’s intelligence, irrespective of what the genes were coded for.

The environment includes those things that make us vulnerable to early life traumas, like growing up in a remote village with no access to water and healthcare as opposed to growing up in Aso Rock. Woman in poor societies are more likely to give birth to children who are traumatised at birth. A low Apgar score (the apgar score is used by midwives and obstetricians to determine how healthy the newborn child is) has been associated with an increased likelihood of low IQ scores at age 18 years’! The environment also includes exposure to good early years mental stimulation etc. etc. etc.

So to conclude, much as the genetic coding is important in how the brain starts to get wired up, its significance pales when one considers the role of the spectrum of environmental influences.

The IQ testing, even the non verbal one, which is supposed to control for culture etc, should be viewed with a lot of suspicion.


PS: Albert Einstein had a peculiarly wired up brain, the cause of which, if one tried to hazard a guess would only continue to befuddle the debate…

Beaf:
There is almost zero genetic difference between "races". That is why I used the example family earlier. Sometimes, there can be more genetic variation in a nuclear family of the same "race" than there is between two different "races".
Also, aren't you are casting your net too wide? Parrots might be more intelligent than most birds, but they certainly are a different animal from an ostrich; just like humans are different from baboons.

We need to look into societal structure for any issues. One question that would offer up a lot of answers is, why were our ancestors left behind from about the 15th century? That is when something went wrong, there is no racial difference in intelligence.
Racial differences in intelligence is a fad. For example; a couple of decades ago, when the Chinese were dying in fearsome scales of hunger, draught and natural disasters, no one ascribed them any intelligence. The same goes for India. But today, there is talk about them being somehow more intelligent than everyone else. Tomorrow, it will be Botswana and Rwanda; they are the next rich countries.

It is possible that there are no differences between the races but we don't know yet they only began decoding last year which was a breakthrough. So we can't say anything about Zero differences yet.

I think you misunderstand my point, the question which is a legitimate one is why do we take for granted that all races are equal in intelligence? there is no logical or scientific reason why it should be.

The animal kingdom can also be grouped into mammals etc and further sub divided into dog, cats, humans etc All I'm saying is that within the sub groups there is disparity in levels of intelligents and other traits for dogs for instance so why should it be different for humans?

There might not be differences but it is certainly a valid question and don't say it's impossible because there isn't conclusive evidence either way.

I hope there are no differences for obvious reasons but although it is very uncomfortable to consider, its not impossible.

Another one of those why-are-we-so-dumb posts.

My own two cents:
I don't think there is anything like an 'intelligent race'. Nor do I think there is anything like a 'dumb race'.
Usually intelligence is individualised. I.e. how an individual responds to the stimuli of the external environment, coupled with prevailing customs. Although there is some research about genetic influence,brain size and shape, etc., but no basis whatsoever.
We've all heard about how super-intelligent the ancient Mayans were. Wonder why they're not ruling the world now, or why they could not save their civilization from disappearing.

In the culture of the ancient world, visionary leadership, culture and customs counted for a lot. Then individuals were greater than the collective. That's why you have personalities straddling those times. Alexander, Christ, Mohammed, Ceaser, Hannibal, Charlemagne, etc. Their ideas still live on, supported by the social systems created by the culture of the people out of which these people came.

In the context of the modern world, collective effort counts for everything. Of course there is a place for individual vision, but the social structure needs to suppport this. In most African societies, it does not, because we are not in any way a collective. A bunch of multi-ethnic nationalities can't be herded into a collective. Lee Kwan Yew realised this, and somehow got his people to see that the British-imposed Federation of Singapore and Malaysia was not going to work, and it was dissolved as an entity. I mean, he had a bright idea, but he still had to get people behind him.

In most of black Africa, there is no collective, no shared customs, no structures to support collaboration. So it makes individual brilliance pale out easily.

AjanleKoko:
Another one of those why-are-we-so-dumb posts.

My own two cents:
I don't think there is anything like an 'intelligent race'. Nor do I think there is anything like a 'dumb race'.
Usually intelligence is individualised. I.e. how an individual responds to the stimuli of the external environment, coupled with prevailing customs. Although there is some research about genetic influence,brain size and shape, etc., but no basis whatsoever.
We've all heard about how super-intelligent the ancient Mayans were. Wonder why they're not ruling the world now, or why they could not save their civilization from disappearing.

In the culture of the ancient world, visionary leadership, culture and customs counted for a lot. Then individuals were greater than the collective. That's why you have personalities straddling those times. Alexander, Christ, Mohammed, Ceaser, Hannibal, Charlemagne, etc. Their ideas still live on, supported by the social systems created by the culture of the people out of which these people came.

In the context of the modern world, collective effort counts for everything. Of course there is a place for individual vision, but the social structure needs to suppport this. In most African societies, it does not, because we are not in any way a collective. A bunch of multi-ethnic nationalities can't be herded into a nation. Lee Kwan Yew realised this, and somehow got his people to see that the British-imposed Federation of Singapore and Malaysia was not going to work, and it was dissolved as an entity. I mean, he had a bright idea, but he still had to get people behind him.

In most of black Africa, there is no collective, no shared customs, no structures to support collaboration. So it makes individual brilliance pale out easily.

Interesting point

@Post,

Each specie of creature that God made is endowed with a specific command that is exclusive. The command code is buried in its gene and lays dormant until its triggered by an external event. . .then it is animated!  The animation results in a predictive behavioral pattern that is unique to members of that specie group.  

So given an external stimulus S_x, you can safely project how the creatures C₁, C₂, C₃ and so on. . .of a studied specie group G will respond. When plotted as a statistical data, the result will conform to a bell shaped curve. . .where you have the average meeting the predicted outcome and a few behaving outside of that prediction, either to the upper extreme or to the lower extreme.

In the human specie, we cannot talk about endowments and intelligence without revisiting the scriptural Garden of Eden.  

I will open up this trail of thought by asking a simple question and then I will pause to get feedback on what you think.  Please do not hold anything back in your response. . .however weird or wild your thought on this subject is, feel free to express it.

Here is the question.  
IN THE ACT WHERE ADAM & EVE DEPARTED FROM THE GARDEN OF EDEN. . . WHERE DID THEY GO?
WHAT WAS TRANSFORMATIONAL ABOUT THAT EVENT?

@Negro attn
I guess they went "north", anyway I am still trying to understand what your driving at.Kindly throw more light so that I can get a clearer picture.

The thing I hate about this intelligent quotient test is that it is inevitably skewed to favour those who design the test.

IMHO, there are three or more factor that affect one's intelligence

1. Culture

2. Opportunity(ies)

3. Nurture

These are the ones I can think of right but I was very disappointed in the show, Rageh seemed rather confused to me and he seemed to be groping around desperately for black children to hold up as examples,

@Negro attn
I guess they went "north", anyway I am still trying to understand what your driving at.Kindly throw more light so that I can get a clearer picture.

PC, lets give some time to get plenty people to read . . .some people will get what Im driving at on first read. . .lets wait for some feedback before I start throwing in clarifications. In fact their feedback may clarify the position for you. Patience my brother. .

A more fundamental question needs to be answered before this whole debate can be had and it hasn't been answered which is,

What is intelligence?