Bennyboy11:

It is possible that there are no differences between the races but we don't know yet they only began decoding last year which was a breakthrough. So we can't say anything about Zero differences yet.

I think you misunderstand my point, the question which is a legitimate one is why do we take for granted that all races are equal in intelligence? there is no logical or scientific reason why it should be.

The animal kingdom can also be grouped into mammals etc and further sub divided into dog, cats, humans etc All I'm saying is that within the sub groups there is disparity in levels of intelligents and other traits for dogs for instance so why should it be different for humans?

There might not be differences but it is certainly a valid question and don't say it's impossible because there isn't conclusive evidence either way.

I hope there are no differences for obvious reasons but although it is very uncomfortable to consider, its not impossible.

The human genome project ended quite some time ago, so there is very sound scientific basis to say that there are only cosmetic.
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/home.shtml

You need to rejig that argument.

Beaf:

The human genome project ended quite some time ago, so there is very sound scientific basis to say that there are only cosmetic.
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/home.shtml

You need to rejig that argument.

Obviously the aim of the project was not just identification and break down of genetics, the utimately aim is to explain fundamental links between human traits and genetics and they are no where near completing that yet. You should keep up with developments.

If your comments where on the back of the initial breakthrough then you where completely misguided. Remember when Dr watson made his racist comments he was told to wait because the research was still underway

http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/index.php/2007/06/15/the-next-stage-of-the-human-genome-project/

Besides I'm not arguing about anything so no need to rejig anything, just a word of caution that there is uncertainty

http://www.medic8.com/genetics/human-genome-project.htm

Have a read under "what are the next steps in genomic research" you will realise the last point continuing to explore ethical, legal etc which is what this debate comes under.

so there is no sound basis to say they are only cosmetic.

For the record I believe environment is key like many people have said but we are watching this space

Bennyboy11:

Obviously the aim of the project was not just identification and break down of genetics, the utimately aim is to explain fundamental links between human traits and genetics and they are no where near completing that yet. You should keep up with developments.

If your comments where on the back of the initial breakthrough then you where completely misguided. Remember when Dr watson made his racist comments he was told to wait because the research was still underway

http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/index.php/2007/06/15/the-next-stage-of-the-human-genome-project/

Besides I'm not arguing about anything so no need to rejig anything, just a word of caution that there is uncertainty

There is nothing to be annoyed over man. Chill
It is already a known fact that you cannot tell a persons "race" from their DNA http://knol.google.com/k/frank-w-sweet/can-dna-tell-what-race-you-are/k16kl3c2f2au/12#
That is why I've always put the term in quotation marks throughout this thread. "Race" is in many ways, getting to be seen as no more than a racist term.

The colour of a persons skin is of no more consequence than the size of their nose.

Beaf:

There is nothing to be annoyed over man. Chill
It is already a known fact that you cannot tell a persons "race" from their DNA http://knol.google.com/k/frank-w-sweet/can-dna-tell-what-race-you-are/k16kl3c2f2au/12#
That is why I've always put the term in quotation marks throughout this thread. "Race" is in many ways, getting to be seen as no more than a racist term.

The colour of a persons skin is of no more consequence than the size of their nose.

It is easier to tell the race of a person from thier DNA than it is to tell if I'm annoyed based on my post on Nairaland. lol

I am far from annoyed.

As a fellow black man fully aware of what some idiots may want to use this propaganda for, I hope you are right but like I stated it's on going. It's early days so you can't conclude on anything yet. Read what you attached properly you will realise it's not really supporting your case its quite irrelevant really.

its a question of "the odds".

and people shouldnt confuse street smarts with intelligence.

It is easier to tell the race of a person from thier DNA than it is to tell if I'm annoyed based on my post on Nairaland. lol

Not true- it is very easy to tell annoyed posts on nairaland- "slowpoke, idiot, ignorant" are quite common markers in nairaland, especially because someone doesn't agree with you. I am aware I use them too, but only when someone argues without logic while claiming logic.

Now race from someone's DNA is very very very difficult and unlikely to tell because there is no specific marker for one race. For example, Watson, who basically called us idiots, has a DNA that is supposed to be "significantly african."

Let me present my opinion on the issue. Finding a gene that determines race and intelligence, would be unlikely- such a trait would be a complex influence of various genes ( i keep getting shocked anytime people talking about finding a specific gene for a trait that is what i term a "spectrum trait" one that isn't discrete but a continuum such as height."

However, as a biological science race and intelligence fails even sometimes in the face of evolution (the problem with using evolution is that it is all speculation). But most should i say racial supremacist point to the situation of third world countries and how these countries are less-developed because of their low intelligence. The problem is that, the third world has no cogent response to this except to point out at globalization (the sudden introduction of African countries- which were european constructs- into a modern economy that they were ill-equipped to survive in) and colonialism (two points that are quite strong but we should also consider that India was once a colony but is becoming a prominent developing country).

I think that for us to respond to questions about race and intelligence we must put sentiments aside and attack them logically- not just that people are the product of their environments which is not usually teh case. for example, Lower income asian's do very well in schools and IQ test in the United States, far more than other minorities with the same income level.

That leads to my second examination, the question of what "intelligence" means. I define intelligence as perspicacious cognitive ability. The ability to become aware of, and interpret patterns in human society. This is not environmental, neither is it- in my opinion exclusively genetic- it is 60% cultural and 30 % intelligence, 10% self-awareness. The cultural factor plays an important role, because you must have experienced, for a significant part of your life, the norms and culture of a society, before you can address the patterns itself. intelligence/cognitive ability plays an important role- because you need this to be able to interpret these patterns and reapply them, as well as recognize new ones. Finally self-awareness, another important factor, because you need to be aware of you intelligence as well as ambitious enough to apply it.

and people shouldnt confuse street smarts with intelligence.

streets smart would make you a good agbero/area boy, intelligence would get you a nobel laureate in the sciences

^^^^^^^^^SEFAGO don reach. with writing 10 pages of rubbish, yet claiming to be intelligent.  

^^^^^^^^^SEFAGO don reach. with writing 10 pages of rubbish, yet claiming to be intelligent.   Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

you are looking for trouble again- i pity you. it is juju worshipper that wants to discuss intellectual topics, scuttle into your little corner mate

SEFAGO:

you are looking for trouble again- i pity you. it is juju worshipper that wants to discuss intellectual topics, scuttle into your little corner mate

I smashed you on the other thread so what do you know NADA!

you are hilarious: I left that thread because i confirmed I was talking to a dumb person. I asked for a tennis ball, you gave me a soccer ball because you claimed they had the same shape. And I just had to leave in disgust-

Bennyboy11:

It is easier to tell the race of a person from thier DNA than it is to tell if I'm annoyed based on my post on Nairaland. lol
I am far from annoyed.

As a fellow black man fully aware of what some idiots may want to use this propaganda for, I hope you are right but like I stated it's on going. It's early days so you can't conclude on anything yet. Read what you attached properly you will realise it's not really supporting your case its quite irrelevant really.

Bros i think you should listen to Beaf on this one cause he is on the right track and you are not. I don't think you understand the extent to which the human genome has been dissected and its inferance on intelligence among humans.

Please can you tell me what race these boys are based on the bolded part of your statement.

I am sure they are probably aborigines or papua guineans/ dark south asians- and maybe not africans

SEFAGO:

I am sure they are probably aborigines or papua guineans/ dark south asians- and maybe not africans

The are south asians(not papau new guineas) and have no genetical ties to Africans yet share the same phenotypical adaptations i.e can pass for Africans in Africa

Therefore to make statments such as "you can tell someomes race by their genetics is false."


most people would not be able to tell that those boys are Strictly asian derived genes with no hint of recent African DNA

A North African Tuareg is closer in genetics to a Sub saharan African than these boys yet they do not share quite the same typical phenotypes as Nigerians

Morpheous, what country in South Asia are these boys in your pix from?

Negro_Ntns:

Morpheous, what country in South Asia are these boys in your pix from?

Negro I'm sure you'll be interested in the various attempts to link the guys to African etnic groups and Egypt through a couple of language similarities. Lets argue about that one on another thread (a bit tenuous to me)? Should be interesting.

SEFAGO:

Not true- it is very easy to tell annoyed posts on nairaland- "slowpoke, idiot, ignorant" are quite common markers in nairaland, especially because someone doesn't agree with you. I am aware I use them too, but only when someone argues without logic while claiming logic.

Now race from someone's DNA is very very very difficult and unlikely to tell because there is no specific marker for one race. For example, Watson, who basically called us idiots, has a DNA that is supposed to be "significantly african."

Let me present my opinion on the issue. Finding a gene that determines race and intelligence, would be unlikely- such a trait would be a complex influence of various genes ( i keep getting shocked anytime people talking about finding a specific gene for a trait that is what i term a "spectrum trait" one that isn't discrete but a continuum such as height."

However, as a biological science race and intelligence fails even sometimes in the face of evolution (the problem with using evolution is that it is all speculation). But most should i say racial supremacist point to the situation of third world countries and how these countries are less-developed because of their low intelligence. The problem is that, the third world has no cogent response to this except to point out at globalization (the sudden introduction of African countries- which were european constructs- into a modern economy that they were ill-equipped to survive in) and colonialism (two points that are quite strong but we should also consider that India was once a colony but is becoming a prominent developing country).

I think that for us to respond to questions about race and intelligence we must put sentiments aside and attack them logically- not just that people are the product of their environments which is not usually teh case. for example, Lower income asian's do very well in schools and IQ test in the United States, far more than other minorities with the same income level.

That leads to my second examination, the question of what "intelligence" means. I define intelligence as perspicacious cognitive ability. The ability to become aware of, and interpret patterns in human society. This is not environmental, neither is it- in my opinion  exclusively genetic- it is 60% cultural and 30 % intelligence, 10% self-awareness. The cultural factor plays an important role, because you must have experienced, for a significant part of your life, the norms and culture of a society, before you can address the patterns itself. intelligence/cognitive ability plays an important role- because you need this to be able to interpret these patterns and reapply them, as well as recognize new ones. Finally self-awareness, another important factor, because you need to be aware of you intelligence as well as ambitious enough to apply it.

streets smart would make you a good agbero/area boy, intelligence would get you a nobel laureate in the sciences

Where is your sense of humour, the comment was meant to be a joke I don't know if you followed the posts all the way.

For your information scientists are hoping to assess which parts of DNA are responsible for different functions. In the same racist article Watson was looking to even explain why some people who are mathematically sound are likely to have less command over literature. I don't think you fully understand the aim of the whole project. No at the moment they do not know which part of one's DNA is responsible for intelligence like I have said a million times, but going forward the intend to. They call it decoding the secrets of life for a reason you should check the links I posted and do further research on it. I am making a simple point which frankly you should understand. The current discovery is just the tip of the iceberg.

Your definition of intelligence is a good attempt but not comprehensive enough but don't feel bad because it's not easy to define. Your definition doesn't encapsulate things like emotional intelligence, artistic expression, music etc which all signify intelligence.

Gene/race has nothing to do with culture or intelligence. It's the social/physical environment that matters most followed by the crowd you keep. Intelligence can be measured by the environment. For instance, A kid born and raised in London to a rich a family and was a able to be successful in his or her studies whatever he or she is studying. Now compared to the kids on the streets of Nigeria who were also able to be successful in their studies with very limited amenities available to them. The kid in London is studying with Bright lights on while the one in Nigeria is studying with candle lights and is sweating while studying in a noisy environment.  Now, the kid in Nigeria and the kid in London both graduated with same GP. Which kid is more intelligent? Note I'm not trying to measure intelligence by education it goes both ways. It's the availability of amenities that shows how intelligent a person is, will be or can be. Emeagwali said he couldn't get a super computer in Nigeria to cook up the phenomenum he had but he went to the US and was able to get that super computer and he succeeded in what he wanted to do. Now if Emeagwali hadn't gotten a visa to the US and was stuck in Nigeria (Note that getting a visa is not dependent on his intelligence, it's totally out of his power) and wasn't able to get the super computer to do what he wanted, does that mean Emeagwali is not intelligent enough to do what he wanted? Of course not.

Take this example:
Ever since I was young I've been told that stepping on a cobra's tail is very dangerous so I avoided stepping on a cobra's tail. Now my friend wasn't told this at all and doesn't know how dangerous stepping on a cobra's tail is so he stepped on the cobra's tail by mistake, does that mean he's not intelligent? No it just mean he didn't know how dangerous his mistake was. Note I said mistake. I know how dangerous such mistake is so I avoid it at all cost but my friend doesn't know how dangerous such mistake is so he took little care about it. Does that mean he's not intelligent? No he just doesn't know if he knew how dangerous his mistake will be, he will avoid it at all cost. Thanks NL


@morpheus24

That picture doesn't show if those boy are intelligent or not it only shows their physical appearance and trust me physical appearance has nothing to do with intelligence.  I can dress like a mad man for a reason, does that mean I'm not intelligent? Can you tell me what race these guys belong to? it's easier to judge the intelligence of these guys by their appearance but trust intelligence has nothing to do with physical appearance.

Ganja!

. . .Na human beings we dey talk about na. Which one come be de demon picture inside?

Negro_Ntns:

Morpheous, what country in South Asia are these boys in your pix from?

I made it easy for ya'll the description of the picture says Andanmese islands located in South Asia off the shores of sri lanka.

9jaganja:


@morpheus24

That picture doesn't show if those boy are intelligent or not it only shows their physical appearance and trust me physical appearance has nothing to do with intelligence.  I can dress like a mad man for a reason, does that mean I'm not intelligent? Can you tell me what race these guys belong to? it's easier to judge the intelligence of these guys by their appearance but trust intelligence has nothing to do with physical appearance.

The picture wasn't meant to make that point it was meant to strengthen the arguement that genetics does not necessarily determine "race" as it is used by the people who coined that word and mentioned by Bennyboy. Race therefore is a "social construct" and cannot be linked to intelligence.

A combination of Genetics and Environment on the other hand is more of a key to deciphering levels of intellligence.

The world has only ONE RACE and it is HUMAN. There is nothing such as White, Blue, Pink, Red, Green or Black race. Only twisted ignorant people would like to indentify human beings with hue.

I think that Gene and Environment are fundamental factors.

Dede1:

The world has only ONE RACE and it is HUMAN.  

Only if

Bennyboy11:

Only if

, Our minds can be freed from the constructs others intentionally place in our conciousness.

Gene has nothing to do with intelligence. Intelligence is something you develop and can increase or decrease. If gene is a factor, then everyone's level of intelligence is determined at birth which is not true unless you have some birth defects which affects your brain (it is a defect). If gene has a role in intelligence, then race can be said to have a role too cause your race is determined by your gene. Gene has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's your physical and social environment that matters.



There is only one race on this planet and that is the Animal race not the Human race!!!

I made it easy for ya'll the description of the picture says Andanmese islands located in South Asia off the shores of sri lanka.

Well, photo journalists do sometimes make mistakes and mix things up with unintended consequences. Whoever took these pictures and labeled them made an error. I would expect you to discover that given you own knowledge of African and Africoid or Negroid profiles. These are African features you are looking at in the pictures.

Someone said we should start the discussion with definitions. I agree. I will state briefly my understanding of race and then share in-depth my belief in human intelligence and the political exploitation of the diversity in humans.

The term human being is applicable only to a distinct and unique specie of creation. This distinction is qualified by an endowment of knowledge. In other words, understanding is present in all creatures but knowledge is specific only to human specie. Humans are categorized into different filter baskets in which people having similarity of ordinary physical features such as skull scultpure and facial bone profile, as well as hair texture, skin and color pigmentation are grouped as a race entity. We have Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid.

There are also intra-racial and inter-racial circumstances that occur naturally to dilute distinctive features such as an albino, or a child cross bred between parents of black and white racial types. Evolution and social alignments across distant peoples and races is increasingly producing offsprings that make it imperatively necessary to dump conservative ideas and adopt new definitions and meanings to race classifications.

Now, let's talk about knowledge. What is knowledge? If you were asked rto define knowledge without looking in dictionary or wikipedia how would you express it?

To me, Knowledge is the net feedback servoed to an individual consciously interacting, actively or passively, with the dimensional environment. The first action/event, whatever its outcome good or bad, becomes a reinforcement or deterrent that shapes how future actions/events are approached. This is called learning! Through learning the individual is empowered to seek truth, advocate truth and sacrifice for truth. This is the power of knowledge. So, out of all creatures why is it only humans that posess knowledge?

Let's go into the scripture. At the beginning of creation, mankind consisted only of Adam. God in his mercy created his partner and helper, Eve; made her of the opposite gender. This was the beginning of duality, polarity, very symbolic when we talk later about diversity! The two at this stage of creation existed in an unconscious state and did not at the time have knowledge. . .they did not need it at that point. God commanded them to remain in that state of purity and bliss, void of knowledge, unless they ate of the forbidden fruit of a particular tree, then they would gain a power that would make it impossible for them to remain in Eden. They disobeyed God's instruction and ate the fruit (apple) from the tree of knowledge. What is the meaning of all these?

Symbolically, this was a transformation across the veil separating unconscious state from conscious state of mind. Your mind is the apple of your body, this is where wisdom resides. It has gates. . .each gate opens a new stage of awareness upon your spirit. In esoteric teachings, the acolyte is led up the path of enlightenement through ritual steps that primarily focus on these gates. In the rituals itself, caution must be taken to ensure that a gate is not opened before the student is ready for the discovery, otherwise irreversible damages may occur to the soul. The acolyte could then end up trapped. . .not in a conscious state and not in an unconscious state but wandering around in a timeless oblivion. Similarly in fraternity ranks, the mystic progresses to the next degree up by first proving their mastery of the interim status.

The universe is seating on a vault full of codes and secrets about the cosmos and life generally. Many gates lead into that vault. The code for unlocking the gate is a fundamental essence in our nature. Mankind is still eating the apple from that tree today and with newly acquired knowledge we are further pushed away from Eden. I can write volumes on the subject. . .but it would divert focus away from the current topic.

Let's go talk intelligence. Intelligence is the application of intellect. The use of intellect include the independent ability to query, question, explore, enquire, probe, reflect, ponder, wonder, examine, . . .the events and sorroundings which act as impulses and stimulate in us ordinray or complex responses from which lessons are learnt. Therefore intellect is dynamic. . .alone, the triggering stimulant is a factor on the expansiveness or limitation of intellect. A child in Ajegunle that has an inquisitive and probing mind will exhibit a higher intellect than a child in New York who is choreographed. It cannot be disputed that access to resources in New York will aid in removing barriers faster and with more accomodation for the choreographed child, whereas the Ajegunle child living in squalor has no such luxury and unless an external intervention acted to rescue him/her, the child will ultimately be defeated by circumstance imposed upon him.

What is the relation between race and intelligence?
I will take a pause here to allow responses and feedback. I will continue later from where I'm leaving off now.

^^^^^ nicely written.

Negro_Ntns:

Well, photo journalists do sometimes make mistakes and mix things up with unintended consequences. Whoever took these pictures and labeled them made an error. I would expect you to discover that given you own knowledge of African and Africoid or Negroid profiles. These are African features you are looking at in the pictures.

I don't understand what you mean by the above bolded part.  What do you mean by whoever took the pics mad a "mistake'.

What mistake are talking about. Are you trying to say the above people are contemporary Africans.

please go an do research on people from this island and you will find out their genetic afinities are to South Asians the Tamal people of Sri lanka and male japanese genes.

Again they have no genetic affinities to Contemporary Africans but have African aka Tropical adapted features.

People in tropical regions have similar adaptations because of similar climatic conditions cause them to retain or conform aka what you call Negroid features should be described as Tropical adaptations in tropical regions of the world.

This is not a coincidence.

You can not necessarilly dtermine a persons race by their genes otherwise analysis of those boys genetics would group them under Asian races and their phenotypes under Africans races.

Social factor

Negro_Ntns:

Someone said we should start the discussion with definitions. I agree. I will state briefly my understanding of race and then share in-depth my belief in human intelligence and the political exploitation of the diversity in humans.

The term human being is applicable only to a distinct and unique specie of creation. This distinction is qualified by an endowment of knowledge. In other words, understanding is present in all creatures but knowledge is specific only to human specie. Humans are categorized into different filter baskets in which people having similarity of ordinary physical features such as skull scultpure and facial bone profile, as well as hair texture, skin and color pigmentation are grouped as a race entity. We have Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid.

There are also intra-racial and inter-racial circumstances that occur naturally to dilute distinctive features such as an albino, or a child cross bred between parents of black and white racial types. Evolution and social alignments across distant peoples and races is increasingly producing offsprings that make it imperatively necessary to dump conservative ideas and adopt new definitions and meanings to race classifications.
Now, let's talk about knowledge. What is knowledge? If you were asked rto define knowledge without looking in dictionary or wikipedia how would you express it?

To me, Knowledge is the net feedback servoed to an individual consciously interacting, actively or passively, with the dimensional environment. The first action/event, whatever its outcome good or bad, becomes a reinforcement or deterrent that shapes how future actions/events are approached. This is called learning! Through learning the individual is empowered to seek truth, advocate truth and sacrifice for truth. This is the power of knowledge. So, out of all creatures why is it only humans that posess knowledge?

Let's go into the scripture. At the beginning of creation, mankind consisted only of Adam. God in his mercy created his partner and helper, Eve; made her of the opposite gender. This was the beginning of duality, polarity, very symbolic when we talk later about diversity! The two at this stage of creation existed in an unconscious state and did not at the time have knowledge. . .they did not need it at that point. God commanded them to remain in that state of purity and bliss, void of knowledge, unless they ate of the forbidden fruit of a particular tree, then they would gain a power that would make it impossible for them to remain in Eden. They disobeyed God's instruction and ate the fruit (apple) from the tree of knowledge. What is the meaning of all these?

Symbolically, this was a transformation across the veil separating unconscious state from conscious state of mind. Your mind is the apple of your body, this is where wisdom resides. It has gates. . .each gate opens a new stage of awareness upon your spirit. In esoteric teachings, the acolyte is led up the path of enlightenement through ritual steps that primarily focus on these gates. In the rituals itself, caution must be taken to ensure that a gate is not opened before the student is ready for the discovery, otherwise irreversible damages may occur to the soul. The acolyte could then end up trapped. . .not in a conscious state and not in an unconscious state but wandering around in a timeless oblivion. Similarly in fraternity ranks, the mystic progresses to the next degree up by first proving their mastery of the interim status.

The universe is seating on a vault full of codes and secrets about the cosmos and life generally. Many gates lead into that vault. The code for unlocking the gate is a fundamental essence in our nature. Mankind is still eating the apple from that tree today and with newly acquired knowledge we are further pushed away from Eden. I can write volumes on the subject. . .but it would divert focus away from the current topic.

Let's go talk intelligence. Intelligence is the application of intellect. The use of intellect include the independent ability to query, question, explore, enquire, probe, reflect, ponder, wonder, examine, . . .the events and sorroundings which act as impulses and stimulate in us ordinray or complex responses from which lessons are learnt. Therefore intellect is dynamic. . .alone, the triggering stimulant is a factor on the expansiveness or limitation of intellect. A child in Ajegunle that has an inquisitive and probing mind will exhibit a higher intellect than a child in New York who is choreographed. It cannot be disputed that access to resources in New York will aid in removing barriers faster and with more accomodation for the choreographed child, whereas the Ajegunle child living in squalor has no such luxury and unless an external intervention acted to rescue him/her, the child will ultimately be defeated by circumstance imposed upon him.

What is the relation between race and intelligence?
I will take a pause here to allow responses and feedback. I will continue later from where I'm leaving off now.

The non use of the bolded characteristics you mention above is not because of mixing of people but because of how genetic studies have trumped te pseudo scientific terminoliges there were used to group humans from early century scientist who obviously studied peoples based on objective manner. If you think this is false then explain to me this

Are the two below pictures Negroid?
If not are they caucasoid?

if so are the caucasoid features as a result of an introduction of non African specific genes?