5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity - Religion (3) - Nairaland
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| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by shadeyinka(m): 11:13am On Dec 20, 2016 |
TheEminentLaity: Those who know Joseph, Mary and Jesus firsthand are the apostles, his disciples and foes alike. Most of the writings of the disciples are found in the new testament. Wasn't there a time the whole world believes that the earth was flat? Its not about the population its about reasonable facts. I used 1Cor9:5 to correct a tradition which has come in much later from thos who knew the people in question.
Traditions are OK only when they don't become a doctrinal issue. Shalom to you |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by TheEminentLaity: 11:20am On Dec 20, 2016 |
When a protestant reads '...if anyone preaches another gospel other than the one you have received, let him be accursed...' to a Roman Catholic or an Orthodox christian simply exposes the depth of ignorance of the individual about the history of his faith. That line has been used to indict and prosecute heretics and dissenters centuries before the reformation...now even Pentecostals use it accuse one another and even Catholics who compiled the books of the Bible, of which Luther in his wisdom removed some and left at sixty six. How many of them know this? No wonder they are so gullible to these scammers parading as preachers...whose gospel are they preaching? Another?   |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 11:32am On Dec 20, 2016 |
shadeyinka:I have asked u a question and u have not responded, 'where does d bible teach that it is d sole authority in christian issues?' and u have not answered that question instead u are expanding d issues into other topics. d topic is mary's virginity, d present tangent is scripture as sole authority. let us take it one at a time. 1 Like |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 11:35am On Dec 20, 2016 |
shadeyinka:please answer my questions first, dont jump them and paste urs. THIS WERE MY QUESTION. Where does d bible say that scriptures is d sole authority on christain issue? What scripture support that?Where does d bible say that scriptures is d sole authority on christain issue? What scripture support that? |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 11:44am On Dec 20, 2016 |
shadeyinka:Actually major isn't relative in those issue, they were so serious and widespread that a council had to be convocked, and arianism and d judiazer did split d church read up and arainism and d proof of d judaizers venom is found in scriptures in pauls epistles particularly in galatians where he call dem fools...etc for beliving d judaizer teaching. Lastly my posts isnt about self but to show ur information is wrong, d church has no doctrine called d divinity of mary, such was not d topic of a council, and such a made-up topic didnt split d church. 1 Like |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by TheEminentLaity: 11:49am On Dec 20, 2016 |
shadeyinka:When you read an English translated Bible (probably retranslated hundreds of times) without context, and knowledge of Jewish traditions at the time it was written you then associate your understanding with your world view. The scriptures you quoted about brothers of Christ, did you read it in the original Greek and understand it with the knowledge of Jewish traditions to who is called brother? No. Don't you think other early Christians kept writings about Christ as well? John said if the works of Christ cannot be contained in a book. Early Christians kept writings of traditions and history when you bother to read them you can revisit all your comments here. Wasn't there a time the whole world believes that the earth was flat? Its not about the population its about reasonable facts.That the world was flat wasn't dogma. We also had been taught for ages that the atom is indivisible and indestructible. What is the reasonable fact about the Virginity of the Holy Mother without looking in context, reading these verses in original Greek and considering tradition of the Jews of the time, and testimony of people who actually knew them to arrive at a conclusion? [/quote] I used 1Cor9:5 to correct a tradition which has come in much later from thos who knew the people in question. Traditions are OK only when they don't become a doctrinal issue.First step of acquiring knowledge is by affirming that I know not anything. That way one can be open to knowledge without bias. You attempt to correct a tradition without knowing the traditions at the time the book you use to correct the tradition was written. Forgive my word play.Your Christianity and intepretation is the one that came in much much later. A good start for you would be to ask why didn't my interpretation of the Virginity of Mary begin before the 19th century? What was the reason my church broke out from its mother church? When You begin to search for answers such as this you would get to the original doctrine that was '...handed over to the Saints and which doctrines are the 'another gospel' in Galatians. Too much effort and volumes to read? Like I said before stick to what works for you. Shalom to you [/quote] |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 1:21pm On Dec 20, 2016 |
shadeyinka:Be careful with that passage, the greek word there is ''adelphaen gynaika'' which literally means ''a sister- a woman'', christain have translated it so for 1500yrs before protestanism, paul was refering to d xtian women that went wit d apostles to provide for their needs like some women did for Jesus. 'a sister a wife' is a new translation began in d 1600s. be careful with it. |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 1:49pm On Dec 20, 2016 |
JMAN05:Webster's Bible Translation And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself, and to Apollos, for your sakes; that ye may learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you on account of one, may be puffed up against another. |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 1:50pm On Dec 20, 2016 |
Syncan:Webster's Bible Translation And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself, and to Apollos, for your sakes; that ye may learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you on account of one, may be puffed up against another. |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 2:03pm On Dec 20, 2016 |
shadeyinka:unless u are using d word brother and sisters as d hebrews and suntimes nigerians do. 2. If Mary had other siblings, were they also immaculately conceived? (I.e. Joseph never ever slept with Mary)?d question is wrong. 3. Is there any scriptural evidence to suggest the perpetual virginity of Mary?yeah. 4. Suppose I say that Joseph was perpetually a virgin, would you agree?yeah, joseph was a virgin from when he maried mary till death parted them. |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 2:07pm On Dec 20, 2016 |
shadeyinka:the problem is that, the teaching dat says scripture shuld b d sole authority 4 doctrines come from d reformer, if they are fallible as u claim then what else are they wrong about? maybe even sola scriptura |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Syncan(m): 3:22pm On Dec 20, 2016 |
Ubenedictus: Exactly. That's why i wonder how he supposes it nullifies "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle". 2Thess.2:15 (same Webster's Bible Translation) |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by shadeyinka(m): 10:01pm On Dec 20, 2016 |
Ubenedictus: I guess we can trade questions. I will answer this question 'where does d bible teach that tradition is d sole authority in christian issues?' If this has an answer, I promise to answer yours. (Note: the word "it " referring to the bible is replaced with "tradition". The question I asked was to show that sometimes, traditions contradict the scriptures. When it happens like that, what should a christian follow? Stay Blessed my Bro |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by shadeyinka(m): 11:15pm On Dec 20, 2016 |
Ubenedictus: Thanks for the exposition. It helped me to check out the Greek words used. adelphēn=ἀδελφὴν = a sister gynaika=γυναῖκα =a wife The first word isn't any problem adelphen is equivalent to the way we use the term brother or brethren in the fellowship or church. Sister in the Lord/Believing Sister The contention is the word gynaika translated as wife. So, let's look at the other shades of meanings Strongs Number: G1135 Orig: probably from the base of 1096; a woman; specially, a wife:--wife, woman. G1096 1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow 2) a wife: a woman bound in marriage 2a) a betrothed woman 2b) a married woman Now, you see it can both be a woman (of any age or marital status or wife). So, let's look at 53 examples of use in the scriptures: Sorry for the long cut and paste.
Do you sincerely believe that it was a mistranslation to call it WIFE? If the greek text used only the word adelphēn, you would have been correct but NO, the word gynaika was used to show that its not just a sister in the Lord but a wife. Sorry for the long post |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by shadeyinka(m): 11:48pm On Dec 20, 2016 |
TheEminentLaity: The problem of tradition isnt recent. I present some scriptures to show how traditions should be treated with respect to the scriptures. If there is any tradition to be followed, it should be the traditions in the scriptures. Isnt that why the scripture contain records of events? ” Traditions are not evil, traditions must just not replace or override the scriptures. Traditions could be embellished. Have you heard the tradition that Jesus and Mary Magdalene married, had a daughter, lived in India and their daughters bloodline runs in the kings of Europe. Of course, its not true BUT it is one of the traditions spread by the enemies of the gospel. How would one know that the above tradition is incorrect? By checking it out with the scriptures and not interpreting the scriptures to suit the tradition. 1 Like |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 11:18am On Dec 21, 2016 |
shadeyinka:this is a case of argueing with yourself. nobody here has taught that tradition is a sole authority, i do not share such a belief that there exists a sole authority in tradition or d bible. Instead u and ur friends claimed that the sole authority is d bible. Where does d bible say so, where does it support u. U have d burden of proof. If this has an answer, I promise to answer yours.in matters of doctrine, scriptures does not contradict sacred tradition, it doesnt happen. if one think he has found such a case then he must assume he isnt reading d tradition correctly or misinterpreting d bible or it is a matter of discipline not doctrine. 1 Like |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by shadeyinka(m): 1:10pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
Ubenedictus: Its actually the reverse, sacred traditions MUST not contradict the scripture. On traditions, I am sure you know that there is what is called traditions of Men; how does a person recognize that which is from men and that which originates from God. Isn't it safe to base ALL traditions either on that which the apostles WROTE down or clearly unambiguous traditions that confirm the LOGOS. But actually the scriptures should be the sole authority. That is why in the court of law, the constitution (written down legal tender) is the final authority. We can have traditional laws BUT they must bow to the constitution else chaos will result. So it is with Scriptures and Traditions. Traditions are not evil but they cannot have weights outside the scriptures. |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by sonmvayina(m): 1:53pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
Who is the famous prost.tute in the book of revelation? |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by sonmvayina(m): 1:55pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
I know for 100% sure she is the ""light bearer",,,and a sworn enemy of the almighty God.. |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by sonmvayina(m): 1:57pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
Jesus is according to the same bible...the light of the world. |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 2:21pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
shadeyinka:I wanted to respond to ur two posts when i remembered, u still havent answered my question. what passage teach that scripture should b d sole authority? stop playing hide and seek. 1 Like |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 2:53pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
shadeyinka:The first meaning for gynaika in any concordance is woman. guné: a woman Original Word: γυνή, αικός, ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: guné Phonetic Spelling: (goo-nay') Short Definition: a woman, wife, my lady Definition: a woman, wife, my lady. NAS Exhaustive Concordance Word Origin a prim. word Definition a woman Now the question, if d first meaning and definition is always woman in concordance but may sumtimes b 'wife', or 'lady', or even a 'woman's' and maybe a widow how then do the translators determine which meaning to use? the answer is CONTEXT. If the passage has qualifiers before gynaika, like his, whose, thy...or in a context of marriage then the translators write wife. a good question u should ask urself is what context neccesitate that translation? why have all translations before 1600 use woman not wife? |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 3:15pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
shadeyinka:so why do u prefer wife to woman in this case when d context doesnt even suggest it. So, let's look at 53 examples of use in the scriptures: Sorry for the long cut and paste.actually it appears about 220+ times and translated woman abt 120+ times and wife 90+ times when d context suggest such. in this instance d context doesnt suggest a wife Do you sincerely believe that it was a mistranslation to call it WIFE?i think it was translated according to d translator whim. because all d most ancient translations read a woman who is a sister (i.e a christian woman) for over 1600yrs and d new translation began with protestanism who wanted to use it as a justification for their practices. |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Geist(m): 3:23pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
@shadeyinka, I think it will also be fair to state what you take to be Scriptures. This is because I know many books were written, many of which claimed to be written by the apostles or their followers. Some of these books were rejected as false and out right lies. could you explain how these books were scrutinized and some accepted while other were rejected as false without the help of the tradition of the church? 1 Like |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 3:33pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
The Real Meaning of Adelphên Gunaika Gunaika (the accusative or objective form of gunê ) can mean both “a woman” and “a wife". To avoid any ambiguity as to the meaning, Saint Paul qualified the word gunaika with the word adelphên (the objective form of adelphê ), which means “a sister,” thus making a composite expression translating literally into “a sister woman.” To understand this a little cultural and historical gloss is helpful. Among the Jews, it was the custom for pious ladies to follow their spiritual masters to aid them in their domestic needs. The Gospels record the fact that pious women followed Jesus and served Him. "And certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary who is called Magdalene, out of whom seven devils were gone forth, and Joanna the wife of Chusa, Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others who ministered unto Him of their substance" (lk 8:2-3). To b contd |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 3:45pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
mathew says the same: ''And there were there many women afar off, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto Him; among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee (27:55-56). The Greek word employed by both Matthew and Luke referring to these pious women who followed and served Our Lord is the same word used by Saint Paul: gunaikes None of the exegetes thought of translating the expression as “wives.” Returning to Saint Paul, the context of the Epistle to the Corinthians does not warrant any conclusion that the Apostle was claiming some right to take a wife with him since a little earlier (7:7-  , he had made clear that he was not married and had no intention to marry. He preferred perfect chastity to the married state which he, nonetheless, held in high esteem. In that passage, addressingboth the single and widowed, he writes: to be contd |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 4:08pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
For I would that all men were even as myself : but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. Since paul has already made it clear that he wasnt married and had no intention to do so, why then will he be argueing about his right to take along a wife? that translation doesnt fit the context. the sentence before it says "have we not a right to eat and drink?" then he says 'have we not a right to take along adephen gynaika...? are barnabas and i the only ones who have a right to stop working? what soldier will serve the army at his own expense?" From the verses that preceed and those that follows we can deduce the clear context, paul was talking about his right to be cared for without any expense, not abt a right to marry but to be accompained by a christian sister to care for his material needs. To be contd |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 5:20pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
It becomes even more interesting that the said passage has always been translated 'a sister, a woman' untill the 1600s with the advent of protestanism, that means d change was motivated and influenced by protestant teaching. early christians and scripture commentator who actually spoke greek comment on d passage. St. Augustine, The Work of Monks 2 wrote: When his identity has been established, he [Paul] shows that the privileges granted to the other apostles are his also, namely, exemption from manual labor and livelihood in recompense for his preaching as the Lord appointed. This is stated most clearly according to the verses where St. Paul argues explicitly that faithful women, possessing the goods of this world, went along with the apostles and ministered to them from their own supplies that the servants of God might lack none of those commodities which constitute the necessities of life… . Certain persons, not understanding this passage, have interpreted it as “wife. |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 5:34pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
Geist:he hasnt told us where d bible says it is d sole authority, i doubt he will respond to this. 3 Likes |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by shadeyinka(m): 5:53pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
Ubenedictus: Your question is like asking the question "where does the bible say thous shalt not sniff cocaine!". I ignored the question unless you can find scripture also to support traditions overriding scriptures as authority. However, there are several warnings against traditions creeping into the church. Traditions with no basis on what Jesus or the apostles taught. Examples: ” Instead the Bible says: ◄ 2 Timothy 3:16 ► New International Version All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, New Living Translation All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. English Standard Version All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, NOT all Traditions useful for teaching, reprogg, correction and training in righteousness. So, at least you can see what the scriptures (and not traditions) is expected to be used for |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by Ubenedictus(m): 8:51pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
shadeyinka:so there is no passage that imply dat d bible is d sole authority abi? |
| Re: 5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity by shadeyinka(m): 10:16pm On Dec 21, 2016 |
Ubenedictus: I gave 53 scriptures for your perusal of the forms of the use of gynaika. Its enough to eraze any bias |
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