Each time I visit Nairaland, I make sure to visit this section. Each time as well, there's always a website review request. I've noticed that people seem to look down on sites done with joomla and joomla users. There's this air of superiority in their replies like ,"I can code, you can't. You're an amateur and you can't create a great site". It's not nice really. Not every one knows how to code a site from scratch so why ask someone that's coming off his first or second joomla site, feeling proud of himself to code a site instead of joomla? I know professionals that use joomla. I use joomla too. I know it can be a great time saving tool and you can get great sites using joomla. There's virtually no category of sites that can't be created using joomla, given it's large extension development community. My point here is, when anyone asks for a site review, don't start harping on about what he used in creating the site. Comment on the site itself, how it looks, how functional it is and all that. Don't make the amateurs feel bad and scare them off web design and development cos if you would admit, coding can be scary business.

I don't see the use of Joomla as a newbie act. I couldnt even use it the time i tried it. Had to check Drupal out and it felt like refreshingly cold beer after a hard days work on joomla ending in frustration.

Lol those days i got so worked up with Drupal and Joomla that when i'm thinking or doing some cms modeling and want to refer to drupal, i call it "droomla";

proproman:

I've noticed that people seem to look down on sites done with joomla and joomla users.

1) You are making a blanket statement. I hereby challenge you to produce a post to support your argument. Remember, by saying what you've said and by me challenging you, your credibility is at stake.

2) Here is what I have said though:
I don't review CMS sites (neither do I review forum sites) because they aren't original (by the way, I have done a couple of Joomla sites myself but heck! I wouldn't even review my own joomla site and for while, didn't even list it on my portfolio page). This doesn't mean I am looking down on them. It simply means that even if you customized it, it is not original (did you code the form validations? Did you code the login module? etc).

It is one thing to review a customized site but when the use of joomla is blatant (login module present, url has "com=", form already validates, etc), whose code/site am I reviewing? Yours or that of the joomla developers?

3) If you search this board, you will see a post I wrote some time ago about joomla sites that are so good that you can't even tell they are joomla sites. I even asked others to post links to such sites and there were quite a few.

I hope you understand where at least I am coming from. Speaking for myself, my comments are not meant to put anyone down but to explain myself as I have above. Sorry if it came out differently.

Well. no one has yet looked down on my joomla sites especially www..com - some sites just use the basic joomla templates
with no additional stuffs and look like copycat typical joomla sites - those ones are the ones you are talking about i suppose

joomla is cool but you may need to go to a joomla academy to catchup.

that same time can be channeled toward understanding the language used to develop joomla itself.

@yawa-ti-de, I may have made a blanket statement but it doesn't cover everybody. It does cover a lot of people however. There was a thread I was reading this morning which someone asked for a site review or something. Here is one person's reply: "joomla at work". Nothing more. No helpful advice or criticism. The tone was rather like disgusted and I didn't like that. It's not the first time i've seen such comments both on Nairaland and off it. I've seen it so many times but that singular post provoked me to start this thread. I'm sure if you check recent threads, you'll find what i'm talking about and more if you look through other threads. Not everyone should learn how to code. That does not mean that web design should be left for coding "gurus" alone. Just take some time to look over some threads that have to do with joomla site reviews. You'll understand my drift.

@dhtml, you're considered a web guru here, so I don't think anyone would make light of a site you create. You're a professional so your sites will generally turn out fine. Am sure you also do some coding when using joomla so you can't say you're using the "pure" joomla CMS so to speak. I'm talking especially about those who are new to using CMSs and have to make use of those not so inspiring templates.

@all, whether it's joomla, pligg, drupal, xoops or whatever, a CMS is used to make site creation easy especially for newbies. At the end of the day, after customizing and everything, you're creating your site. The owners of joomla cannot lay claim to your site just because you used their CMS, afterall, it's not in the terms of use. A great site is a great site, joomla or otherwise and except the CMS is making the site look terrible or less functional, I don't think it should be a criticism point.

proproman:

Not everyone should learn how to code.

Not everyone should be a web designer. But every web designer should learn to code.


I get your point though. An aspiring webdesigner may come in here and just feel hedged up like one's up against a clique of html lords.
Since i'm here to learn, I really shouldnt be bothered more, I should see it as a challenge.


P.S(totally offpoint sorry): I pawned the anti-spam bot today, yay! i posted a rapidshare link to a java book and went undetected

@dualcore, you seem to get my drift but i don't agree with you that every web designer has to learn how to code. I know that the knowledge of coding is invaluable for web designers but let's face it, not everyone wants to create facebook. what about those who need to create small site for one reason or the other, would you recommend a big book on php, html and mysql? i agree that not everyone should be a web designer but i don't think all web designers have to code their sites from scratch. what about those bankers that are graduates of chemical engineering? would you ask them to stop working because they have no knowledge of balance sheets? the bench mark for assesment should be job execution not qualifications.[color=][/color]

All car owners should learn to drive. That doesnt mean all car owners should drive. But just incase the driver isnt there, they are not lost. Just incase the driver has been demobilized by something, they can still move the car. That's my point.

Interesting thread. There's a high incidence of Nigerian sites using Joomla recently and it doesnt always turn out well, hence the seemingly blanket criticism. If you are going to do something, at least try to do it well. I am a Joomla user, have been for a few years now. But I dont take offense at most of the criticism of Joomla sites I see on this forum. The developers need to be encouraged to do better, but you can only make that point so many times before you start to get irritated by the constant stream of half-baked Joomla websites our brothers produce. I use Joomla a lot and cant stand it when I see websites that seem to have had no planning element. Its not about boasting. Its simply about the level of professionalism we portray in this industry and with sites like this, it seems we are going back rather than moving forward.

@pie1ect, that is very true - half baked joomla websites. I too find it rather difficult to stand 'cos it portrays joomla in a bad light

To the best of my knowledge, Joomla isn't a bad CMS. It has its strengths, as well as weaknesses.

Perhaps what the Joomla critics have against it is the fact that it isn't used properly -- in my opinion, it isn't something you should use out of the box, with an included or downloaded template, or even worse using a half-baked customized template. I jumped the Joomla ship some time ago when 1.5 was still in beta, but I was sufficiently impressed with the new features.

In terms of customizing, I would say it's up not as easy to do what you want to do like say, Wordpress, but it does the job well if you know how.

In the end, using some CMS you know is faster than creating something from scratch, and you can be sure it has been tested a lot more than anything you could come up with on short notice.

zahymaka: welcome back

propro, referencing your post #5:
If you check your dictionary, you will see that a blanket statement means, pretty much, a statement that includes a whole group, often without regard for the differences within that group. I don't want to get flagged, otherwise, I would post a link.

I think you need to read my post again. Also, you are the one making the blanket statements so it is you, not me, who needs to come up with the responses from others. Again, show us where the posters are in violation of your first post.

pie1ct, dhtml et al understand what I am saying. I know from their responses. There is no need putting up defence mechanisms. If you come here with a joomla site, and I speak for myself, take the time to make it unique. A site review is more than the interface. It also involves, and again I speak for myself, funcitonality. Again, you didn't code the login module so there is no way for me to see how good you are with respect to preventing sql injections or form validation. You didn't code the search so why should I review that. In the end I am left with reviewing layout and again, if you have noted how I do reviews, it involves both layout and functionality. Quite frankly, IMHO, you are doing both the forumites and the joomla coders a disservice by not announcing up front that the site is a CMS site.

In conclusion, a CMS site is not akin to having leprosy. There is nothing wrong with developing a site with one. Just know when to use it and how to use it, that's all.

blankety-blank. . .just kidding. Though i was just testing out my hand in joomla when i created .com but then, i still studied first for about one or two weeks just so i dont create rubbish

@yawa-ti-de, you should understand what i meant with the blanket statement, well, statement. We don't have to go into grammatics and semantics. I didn't fail English Language! . On a serious note, I don't think you are getting my point. My point is that lots of people don't criticise the planning, layout and functionality of most joomla sites first. What they seem to focus on is the use of joomla in the first place. I do not encourage half baked sites and the use of horrible templates but the layout and functionality of the site should be the issue for criticism not the CMS in use. There are lots of sites that make use of popular CMS but because joomla is the most popular, it's easier to identify. There's pligg, xoops, drupal, e701, zikula and others that would not be so easy to identify. Such sites hardly come under the CMS criticism knife because the CMS is not as well known as joomla but once a site is identified as joomla created, it gets the "you're using joomla, aren't you?" bullets. Zahymaka seems to understand me better. The CMS criticism is the question here, not the functionality and layout and as far as i'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with joomla.

Dual Core:

All car owners should learn to drive. That doesnt mean all car owners should drive. But just incase the driver isnt there, they are not lost. Just incase the driver has been demobilized by something, they can still move the car. That's my point.

. Creating websites with CMSs but not knowing how to code is not like not knowing how to drive. It's more like knowing how to drive a manual shift car and knowing how to code is like knowing how to drive both manual and automatic. The person with knowledge of coding just has more options that can help create exactly what the person has in mind. You can't tell me that someone that does not know how to code but knows how to use a CMS perfectly well can't come up with a good website. Would you then say that everyone that does not have an idea of coding should not attempt site creation even if it turns out bad? That would be harsh. If criticising a site, i am saying it again, let the layout and functionality of the site be the object of criticism and not the CMS in use. If joomla is all the person knows how to use, you might as well tell the person to stop creating sites.

Let's face it, up to70% of the total number of people that visit facebook everyday have no idea of how it was created. And they don't care. Provided it does what they want and it looks good, they're ok. A site review is intended to help a site owner create a better looking, more functional site not to discourage the person from creating of the site.

ps @all, I'm not trying to put anyone's criticism down, if it was meant in good faith. I just raised what i thought was an issue that needed addressing.

Hmm, never knew joomla was so hated. And I was going to design a website with it.

@scribesed, go on and make use of joomla. it's a really good cms if you know how to use it. it doesn't matter what cms you use. provided you plan your site well and make it as functional as possible without making it over loaded, you'll be fine.[color=][/color][color=][/color]

Joomla is not hated.
@ propro

The issue is not that people criticise Joomla. It may sound that way, but in reality what people are actually criticising is the fact the the developer has made no effort to mask the fact that Joomla was used to build the site by applying proper design procedures like content planning and knowing what modules to use and when.

Barackobama.com is built on an open source CMS and Im almost certain the new white house website as well. But you wouldn't know it from looking at it.  People dont want to see the content management system, they want to see a website and the way most Nigerian Joomla sites are structured, you only get to see the system rather than a usable website which is more important.

pie1ct: here, here.

wat do u think abt joomla and drupal o better still drumla.which s easy to work with

i have only used joomla - i can only speak for myself

Ok maybe i was just having a bad day with technology (as usual) the night i checked Joomla out. When I checked drupal that same night i was like. . . good riddance.

I will look at joomla again, shortly (with an open mind).

@ Dual Core,
If you think Joomla is hard, try out Movable Type. At first glance, they all have their no-no's. Agreed though, out of all the open source CMSs available today, Joomla seems to be the most time-consuming when it comes to customisation. Even a "commercial" template still needs tweaking to make it look unique.

I think the key in the end is planning. Build a Joomla site as you would any other type of website - from scratch. Map everything out on paper and when you get on the PC, its easier to handle. Not a breeze, but definitely easier. An even easier way would be to have a "customsed" version of Joomla to hand, so anytime one gets a project you are not looking to start from scratch each time (installing, configuring globals, content parameters, etc). That way you can focus on mapping out content and navigation and then styling the site.

In the first quarter of next year hopefully, I will learn how to construct themes/templates for CMSes from scratch using the available web technologies. Then that's when I'll start having fun with 'em.

yawa-ti-de:

zahymaka: welcome back ,

Thanks.

Anybody can do as much as drupal with joomla, all based on mastery