Katsumoto:

Please can you expantiate on this?

It is highly unlikely that a christian southerner be elected in Nigeria if we had free and fair elcetions. If Abiola was a christian he wouldnt have won.

Kobojunkie:

We have a democracy now, and I say we start to act it at all levels. If the people SPEAK, let it be that the people have SPOKEN. People need to be allowed to speak out on an individual level not really on a tribal or ethnic level anymore. There is just as much divide at the ethnic level as there is at the tribal level, so why switch one dirty pair of socks for another?

On the major tribes wanting their dominance, would we want that to continue? Is that the part of what this SNC is going to be about STILL?

The problem with everyone having a vote is one of education or lack of it. While the people in the south may be able to voice their individual opinions, that is not the case in the north. The people in the north are still being spoken for by their emirs and few elites. Until they are educated, they will continue to be used as pawns by the northern elites. Ndu_chuks and sjeezy have reminded us of the stark realities about break-up should some groups advocate it. Do you think the emirs and their kind would be able to threaten war each time SNC or secession is mentioned if their constituents were better informed? I don't think so. I for one, assume that the southerners do not want another war. We see this problem everytime, there is destruction of properties and rampaging murders of innocent civilians in Northern cities for whatever reason.

So to answer your question, as long as the North (Hausa/Fulani, Nupe, etc) continue to band together, some tribes will continue to rely on size for domination.

Katsumoto:

The problem with everyone having a vote is one of education or lack of it. While the people in the south may be able to voice their individual opinions, that is not the case in the north. The people in the north are still being spoken for by their emirs and few elites. Until they are educated, they will continue to used as pawns by the northern elites. Ndu_chuks and sjeezy have reminded us of the stark realities about break-up should some groups advocate it. Do you think the emirs and their kind would be able to threaten war each time SNC or secession is mentioned if their constituents were better informed? I don't think so. I for one, assume that the southerners do not want another war. We see this problem everytime, there is destruction of properties and rampaging murders of innocent civilians in Northern cities for whatever reason.

So to answer your question, as long as the North (Hausa/Fulani, Nupe, etc) continue to band together, some tribes will continue to rely on size for domination.

As much as I agree with some of your points, it is the south that needs to wake up. The truth is - there is nothing like One north again. read in btw the lines and happenings.

Katsumoto:

The problem with everyone having a vote is one of education or lack of it. While the people in the south may be able to voice their individual opinions, that is not the case in the north. The people in the north are still being spoken for by their emirs and few elites. Until they are educated, they will continue to used as pawns by the northern elites. Ndu_chuks and sjeezy have reminded us of the stark realities about break-up should some groups advocate it.

Do you think the emirs and their kind would be able to threaten war each time SNC or secession is mentioned if their constituents were better informed? I don't think so. I for one, assume that the southerners do not want another war. We see this problem everytime, there is destruction of properties and rampaging murders of innocent civilians in Northern cities for whatever reason.

So to answer your question, as long as the North (Hausa/Fulani, Nupe, etc) continue to band together, some tribes will continue to rely on size for domination.

Definitely, people ( both north and south) would need to be educated in order for us to have a serious and productive SNC. And I am still against having ethnic/tribal votes cast on behalf of the people. The only way to encourage individuals to wake up to making decisions for the good of the nation is to encourage them to understand their duty as citizens, and not as members of tribes or ethnic groups.

Ethnic/tribal votes will never go away - thats why here in America the they say the "African american vote" ,the "hispanic or latino vote" and such because ethnic groups matter when voting in every country.
Thats why candidates/political parties in America make it a habit of labeliling voters in such manner.

and it will never change

so Nigerians should stop dreaming of a tribeless election and work with what they have. Being realistic

Last I checked, the people classed within these groups in America VOTE as INDIVIDUALS and not as an ethnic or tribal entity, and their votes do not represent the WILL OF THE GROUP per say, but the will of INDIVIDUALS, who happen to be members of each group. Same way if all Ibos voted as individuals, the vote would not be an ethnic vote, but individual votes from people who happen to belong to the ibo tribe.

sjeezy8:

It is highly unlikely that a christian southerner be elected in Nigeria if we had free and fair elcetions. If Abiola was a christian he wouldnt have won.

Obasanjo is not a muslim, is he?

There will be no point in a Sovereign National Conference if ethnicity isn't to be considered. What will there be to discuss?

There is no way we can banish "tribal" afilliations; they can only be watered down. Every individual belongs to a ethnic group, that ethnic group determines the individuals identity and culture, the name they bear, the names they give their children. We cannot escape it.

If the argument is that a persons ethnicity also determines a persons VOTE then I don't see reason why we beat down groups such as the fulanis, nupes etc for banding together then.

Kobojunkie:

Last I checked, these groups in America VOTE as INDIVIDUALS and not as an ethnic or tribal group and their votes do not represent the WILL OF THE GROUP per say but the will of INDIVIDUALS, who happen to be members of each group. Same way if all Ibos voted as individuals, the vote would not be an ethnic vote, but individual votes from people who happen to belong to the ibo tribe.

No distinction can be made - if a group of individuals vote similarly due to shared ethnicity or tribe then it IS a group vote. Simple

This idea of voting as 'individuals' is ridiculous - reading what you've posted would make one wonder whether people were allocated votes by declaring their ethnicity rather than by casting their ballots one by one.  

Whether it should be a matter of wild assumptions of wrong or right, what ethnicity did what or not, what section of the jungle called Nigeria gets befitting infrastructures, I am unflinchingly bent on disintegration of Nigeria. The crux of the retrogressive nature of the geographical expression lies with the act of fusing nation states into one cesspit called Nigeria by the colonial buffoons.

There is no doubt that Nigerians have run dry on the spirit of good neighborhood since dwelling together under one roof called Nigeria. There is a shining indicator that nothing tangible will come out of present configuration of Nigeria and the only solution is disintegration. At this stage of Nigerian current affairs, the idea of calling for national conference is a mere succor to the status quo.

I do not give a rat-ass if war of attrition is the only method that will see to the disintegration of the colonial contraption. However, if the only amiable solution warrants granting sovereignty to every ethnic group in Nigeria, I am for it.

Dede1:

Whether it should be a matter of wild assumptions of wrong or right, what ethnicity did what or not, what section of the jungle called Nigeria gets befitting infrastructures, I am unflinchingly bent on disintegration of Nigeria. The crux of the retrogressive nature of the geographical expression lies with the act of fusing nation states into one cesspit called Nigeria by the colonial buffoons.

There is no doubt that Nigerians have run dry on the spirit of good neighborhood since dwelling together under one roof called Nigeria. There is a shining indicator that nothing tangible will come out of present configuration of Nigeria and the only solution is disintegration. At this stage of Nigerian current affairs, the idea of calling for national conference is a mere succor to the status quo.

I do not give a rat-backside if war of attrition is the only method that will see to the disintegration of the colonial contraption. However, if the only amiable solution warrants granting sovereignty to every ethnic group in Nigeria, I am for it.

Think about it, there is no tribe that is totally bad or totally good in Nigeria. How are we sure if for instance we have Odua republic that the ekitis will not be contending with the Ijebus or the egbas with the ijesha people. The solution is to find a 'formula' that will work for us. And am sure we can find one if we are sincere.

Wasn't democracy given as a solution? Why are we NOW afraid to pursue it to the fullest?

~Sauron~:

Obasanjo is not a muslim, is he?

Obj is not a muslim but how many southerners can gain the SAME favor from nothern voters as OBJ did. Hes not an ordinary politician as he served as vice persident and president before.

Kobojunkie:

Wasn't democracy given as a solution? Why are we NOW afraid to pursue it to the fullest?

The national conference is meant to determine how several cultures can fit together. No individual is a culture, rather an individual belongs to a culture; therefore cultures (ethnicities) alone need to be represented. There might be space given to certain special interests like the almajiri's, residents of horrible slums like Ijora Badia, people from ND creeks etc. The guideline would be that people are bound by commonalities (those commonalities must not equate to the cardinal points of the compass).

OAM4J:

Think about it, there is no tribe that is totally bad or totally good in Nigeria. How are we sure if for instance we have Odua republic that the ekitis will not be contending with the Ijebus or the egbas with the ijesha people. The solution is to find a 'formula' that will work for us. And am sure we can find one if we are sincere.

Siblings often engage each other in fight and many times, there cousins will gather to settle differences with wise and honest concessions. If the ekiti and Ijebu decide to dull in Odua Republic, the Ife will step in to settle the differences with honest and no jaundiced deliberation.

Dede1:

Siblings often engage each other in fight and many times, there cousins will gather to settle differences with wise and honest concessions. If the ekiti and Ijebu decide to dull in Odua Republic, the Ife will step in to settle the differences with honest and no jaundiced deliberation.

Why cant we promote same brotherhood in the bigger picture of the entity called Nigeria.

I'd be curious to find out what would come out of a "Nairaland Sovereign National Conference" -   A mock SNC where internet warriors would discuss in detail, topics that they deem fit for inclusion in the agenda of the real conference.

My bet will be placed on the woeful failure of such a conference. I hope forumites can prove me wrong!

My initial contribution to the conference would be as follows:

(1) Scrap the federal character nonsense.

(2) Any citizen who takes up permanent residence in any state for a period of 6 months automatically becomes an indegene of that state.

(3)Elementary education will be mandatory, with jail terms for parents who do not send their children to school.

(4)Allocation of federal revenues to states will be tied to revenues generated by the states themselves.
(for example; if according to revenue sharing formular a state's share is N1billion per quarter, the state only gets 50% of that; additional funds will be in the form of matching funds -  thus the state gets additional N500m only if she generates an equal amount of revenue from tourism, taxes, or any other means.

(5)Each state should be responsible for its own police force.

(6)20year jail term with hard labor for anyone caught romanticizing the breakup of the country.

(7)Erect 2 national monuments for the fallen heros of the civil war; one in Enugu and the other in Kaduna. 

make i stop for now. i hope say people get sense of humour wey enable dem to smile after reading number 6.  we no fit hide from ourselves, when nigeria dey play soccer match na him una dey sabi say we be one. every single one of you people get worked up when watching the eagles play.  na because of de nigerian in you people.

We are the envy of all Africans, we shine for good and bad all over the world, WE ARE NIGERIANS. The greatest people on earth!

Do we have any leader(s) that can organize this conference in a specially moderated thread?  we go see whether people na empty barrels making noise dey here, or whether dem fit pull this ting off.

P.S. You'd be surprised how many senators and reps are nairalanders. 

(4)Allocation of federal revenues to states will be tied to revenues generated by the states themselves.
(for example; if according to revenue sharing formular a state's share is N1billion per quarter, the state only gets 50% of that; additional funds will be in the form of matching funds -  thus the state gets additional N500m only if she generates an equal amount of revenue from tourism, taxes, or any other means.
. . .
(6)20year jail term with hard labor for anyone caught romanticizing the breakup of the country.

You forgot the most important thing; true federalism. Your proposal is for a unitary system, so it falls far short of the minimum.
Also, an important part of any federal constituition is the right to secede and the process for secession.

Beaf:

^
You forgot the most important thing; true federalism. Your proposal is for a unitary system, so it falls far short of the minimum.

if you look closely, you go see components of federalism na, besides since na conference you fit bring ya own topics as well. 

ya sabi say, if people bring topic wey go incite adverse reaction, some attendees fit walk out of de conference. e better to get significant improvement than to get nothing at all.

^
Ok, what of the resource control. You for no put any percent, so I say 100% and taxes to the FG.

With that I suggest you open a new thread and call it something like NL Sovereign National Conference, then set up a means for each area to elect their representatives.
Let's do it, you've suggested a good thing.

Beaf:

Let's do it, you've suggested a good thing.

beaf, abeg make we no argue about this ting, the new thread would be a natural extension of this one. besides if certain people see my name for de thread dem go pick race, for obvious reasons. besides ya name carry clout for dis section

^
There is no reason why anybody would run away from your thread. Is it because you represent Northern interests?

Me, clout! Na becomerich carry clout for NL o! Don't let that man vex with me, I don already dey im black book.
I'll only start the new topic if you insist.

@Beaf, please go ahead, I insist.

Beaf:

You forgot the most important thing; true federalism. Your proposal is for a unitary system, so it falls far short of the minimum.
Also, an important part of any federal constituition is the right to secede and the process for secession.

Classic.
Can I add that ndu_chuks' sixth item should be replace with death penalty for anyone insisting on unity at all costs?! This unity at all costs is the single biggest killer of Nigerians. It continues to kill Nigerians daily. So, it deserves the death penalty. If anyone wants to leave the union, he should be free to leave without being killed for it. People aren't scared of all these war threats from forced unity advocates anymore.

Some key balkan figures like the Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic and General Ratko Mladic are war criminals today because they fought Bosnians (croats and muslims) who wanted peaceful separation. I don't think the world will accept forced national marriages anymore. So, ndu_chuks, take note and also advise your northern brothers accordingly. Also, not only will the north lose the middle belt support next time, the world will remember the first civil war and remember that some war criminals are still at large. Of course they will only remember the unrepentant ones!

OAM4J:

Why cant we promote same brotherhood in the bigger picture of the entity called Nigeria.

Simply because in Nigeria we are not members of the same family.

Beaf:

^
There is no reason why anybody would run away from your thread. Is it because you represent Northern interests?

Me, clout! Na becomerich carry clout for NL o! Don't let that man vex with me, I don already dey im black book.
I'll only start the new topic if you insist.

Beaf that one na big project so make you no rush start am ooo, there are many things involved.

Pharoh:

Simply because in Nigeria we are not members of the same family.

Beaf that one na big project so make you no rush start am ooo, there are many things involved.

True, thats why its not started yet.
We will need to parley a bit on what the structures, methods and procedures will be.

ndu_chucks:

I'd be curious to find out what would come out of a "Nairaland Sovereign National Conference" -   A mock SNC where internet warriors would discuss in detail, topics that they deem fit for inclusion in the agenda of the real conference.

My bet will be placed on the woeful failure of such a conference. I hope forumites can prove me wrong!

My initial contribution to the conference would be as follows:

(1) Scrap the federal character nonsense.

(2) Any citizen who takes up permanent residence in any state for a period of 6 months automatically becomes an indegene of that state.

(3)Elementary education will be mandatory, with jail terms for parents who do not send their children to school.

(4)Allocation of federal revenues to states will be tied to revenues generated by the states themselves.
(for example; if according to revenue sharing formular a state's share is N1billion per quarter, the state only gets 50% of that; additional funds will be in the form of matching funds -  thus the state gets additional N500m only if she generates an equal amount of revenue from tourism, taxes, or any other means.

(5)Each state should be responsible for its own police force.

(6)20year jail term with hard labor for anyone caught romanticizing the breakup of the country.

(7)Erect 2 national monuments for the fallen heros of the civil war; one in Enugu and the other in Kaduna. 

make i stop for now. i hope say people get sense of humour wey enable dem to smile after reading number 6.  we no fit hide from ourselves, when nigeria dey play soccer match na him una dey sabi say we be one. every single one of you people get worked up when watching the eagles play.  na because of de nigerian in you people.

We are the envy of all Africans, we shine for good and bad all over the world, WE ARE NIGERIANS. The greatest people on earth!

Do we have any leader(s) that can organize this conference in a specially moderated thread?  we go see whether people na empty barrels making noise dey here, or whether dem fit pull this ting off.

P.S. You'd be surprised how many senators and reps are nairalanders. 

Why can't each state be responsible for its own revenue? Why must other parts of Nigeria be dependent on Oil from the South-South areas? If oil was in the North, Nigeria would have been a thing of the past. Once each state is responsible for its own revenue, the people will be forced to elect only visionary leaders who will put in place programmes for the development and advancement of their regions/states instead of the looters we currently have.

Nigeria is blessed with so many resources in all the regions, Oil is not our only resource. The system we should practice should be similar to the one in America, not because it is the most superior but because we share so many similarities. Each state is responsible for its own revenue, police, education, etc and each state pays taxes to the central government based on its revenue, so states with higher revenue will pay more tax than others. The central government is then responsible for only those things that are common to us all such Defense, Sports, etc

And don't forget to BAN religion; it is one of the problems affecting Nigeria. Nigerians are so religious but hypocritical.

Katsumoto:

Why can't each state be responsible for its own revenue?

Nigeria is blessed with so many resources in all the regions, Oil is not our only resource. The system we should practice should be similar to the one in America, not because it is the most superior but because we share so many similarities. Each state is responsible for its own revenue, police, education, etc and each state pays taxes to the central government based on its revenue, so states with higher revenue will pay more tax than others.

I don't disagree with  with most of what you wrote above.  Ultimately, every state should indeed be responsible for its own revenue. My proposal will simply help move us in that direction. 

As a practical matter, if the feds abruptly stop sharing national revenues with the states, it could conceivably result to the deaths of thousands, if not millions of people.  State governments should be weaned from this dependence in the most beneficial manner.

What do you mean by "ban religion"?.  Every Nigerian should enjoy freedom of association and should be free to practice whatever religion.

ndu_chucks:

I don't disagree with  with most of what you wrote above.  Ultimately, every state should indeed be responsible for its own revenue. My proposal will simply help move us in that direction. 

As a practical matter, if the feds abruptly stop sharing national revenues with the states, it could conceivably result to the deaths of thousands, if not millions of people.  State governments should be weaned from this dependence in the most beneficial manner.

What do you mean by "ban religion"?.  Every Nigerian should enjoy freedom of association and should be free to practice whatever religion.

I am talking about secularism as practised in some countries ie France. In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and freedom from the government imposition of religion upon the people, within a state that is neutral on matters of belief, and gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions.

I say this because religion, aside from tribe, is the other major cause of conflict in Nigeria. People should be free to practice whatever religion they choose but they should not force, inconvenience or cause it to others.

ndu_chucks:

I don't disagree with  with most of what you wrote above.  Ultimately, every state should indeed be responsible for its own revenue. My proposal will simply help move us in that direction. 

As a practical matter, if the feds abruptly stop sharing national revenues with the states, it could conceivably result to the deaths of thousands, if not millions of people.  State governments should be weaned from this dependence in the most beneficial manner.

What do you mean by "ban religion"?.  Every Nigerian should enjoy freedom of association and should be free to practice whatever religion.

I am sure that the ND wouldn't be averse to providing loans, grants and cooperation for a given period (brokered by an international body), after which everyone will be on their own. But we can't go on the way we currently are.
Even the oil producing states need to diversify (as is currently going on slowly in Rivers and Delta states).

ndu_chucks:

I don't disagree with  with most of what you wrote above.  Ultimately, every state should indeed be responsible for its own revenue. My proposal will simply help move us in that direction. 

As a practical matter, if the feds abruptly stop sharing national revenues with the states, it could conceivably result to the deaths of thousands, if not millions of people.  State governments should be weaned from this dependence in the most beneficial manner.

What do you mean by "ban religion"?.  Every Nigerian should enjoy freedom of association and should be free to practice whatever religion.

But with this present structure i don't see individual states trying to wean away from oil allocations speedily except lagos state

Beaf:

True, thats why its not started yet.
We will need to parley a bit on what the structures, methods and procedures will be.

.


That's right maybe early next year after this festive period you can create a thread asking for peoples contribution to the project.